Retiree Account Dipped Below 800,000. Now Forced To Leave.

[jbeck]

I am thinking about the retirement extention, Does anyone have experience with getting the bank letter

from a branch far away. I live in Chiang Mai but my branch is in Phuket.

This may or may not be a problem...Maybe it would be wise to move the account.

I opened a second account/branch as I travel between phuket and chiang mai a lot.

At SIAM bank, anyway, each branch is like it's own entity. I don't see any drawback to having 2 accounts.

[lopburi3]

Always best to have local accounts as they charge a fee to withdraw money when using ATM in another area.

[tracer0]

I am thinking about the retirement extention, Does anyone have experience with getting the bank letter

from a branch far away. I live in Chiang Mai but my branch is in Phuket.

This may or may not be a problem...Maybe it would be wise to move the account.

Depends on what bank it is. But very likely it is better the have the bank near you.

Essentially ask your bank if you can get that letter if you need it. I had several accounts in Phuket

but had to merge 2 together last year. Also I couldnt use my account in Thalang as it just would take too much time...

[greenway]

I will guess you mean being over age 50 and using the reason you wish to retire? Single entry I expect would be issued on the basis of your age alone. But don't recall any recent posts.

Good guess

I am 66 years old and the reason is retirement.

Live here on Tourist visas already for 17 months, I get a bit tired of the traveling to Laos twice a year , so I wish to have an Non Immigrant O.

I will demand end of this month an Non Immigrant O at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane without a proof of income declaration from the Dutch Embassy.

If they refuse no problem I suppose, then I can obtain again a 2 entree Tourist visa...

[jfchandler]

Lots of discussion, but no one responded on the question I posed below... Any answer???

I don't mean what exact 33.XX or 34.XX amount. I mean, what yardstick source/date for U.S. $-baht exchange rate does Thai immigration use for making that determination.

If you apply for retirement extension using the 65,000 baht per month income criteria, and you apply this August, how would Immigration calculate the exchange rate??

PS - As a side issue, I remember this question being posed elsewhere here, but not clearly answered as far as I could see.

If you're getting a U.S. Embassy letter and listing/reporting your monthly income in U.S. $, what source of exchange rate should you (the applicant) use to know you're meeting the 65,000 baht requirement. Or more to the point, what source of exchange rate will Thai immigration use in making THEIR calculation???

[nigelandjan]

If I am understanding what the OP said, it raises a couple of questions in my mind, pertaining to those retirees who are using the "bank account only option":

1. Does anyone know of anyone who has been required to leave, because of this change in interpretation of the rules regarding the length of the required "seasoning period" for the "top-up money", i.e. the money that is brought to Thailand to restore the visa holder's bank account to 800,000 baht. ?

2. If people are being told to leave while they still have, say, 700,000 baht in their bank account, are they able to send this money out of Thailand before their required departure date ?

3. Or, in the alternative, are they being given a reasonable time to top up their bank account ? I suppose "reasonable" here depends on the size of the deficiency.

As a matter of general policy, I don't want to live in (or even visit) a country where I am not wanted.

If you are going to follow you GENERAL policy then , you will not be either visiting or living in the L O F S,s because NONE of us are WANTED here , and as a rule of thumb I would agree with your sentiments , the only reason I come back to visit with my wife now is to see my Thai inlaws , whom I love very much as part of my family, infact next year I am getting a couple of them visitor visas and paying their airticket so they can come to us .

[Jingthing]

Come on now.

Having your extension application denied at a single time WITH CAUSE is not the same thing as being black listed or forced to leave the country permanently. It just means if you wish to stay you must make a fresh attempt at meeting the visa requirements. In the OP's case, a one day flight to Penang would have given him a 30 day stamp from which he could have started over (assuming he could meet the 2 month seasoning requirement for first time extensions). If not, he could have gotten an O in Penang or Laos and just started over. It would be inconvenient but lets not make it bigger than it is.

However, if the requirement is 800K and you simply can't come up with the 800K, even in the case of a two or three month LOAN (yes the rules do NOT stop loans), well, then you really do need to leave. So sorry.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[InterestedObserver]

However, if the requirement is 800K and you simply can't come up with the 800K, even in the case of a two or three month LOAN (yes the rules do NOT stop loans), well, then you really do need to leave. So sorry.

If immigration is really concerned about stopping the loans, then all they have to do is amend the regulations to require the 800k be in your Thai bank account all year for retirement extensions. Effectively creating a 1 year seasoning period.

Edited August 9, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[Jingthing]

However, if the requirement is 800K and you simply can't come up with the 800K, even in the case of a two or three month LOAN (yes the rules do NOT stop loans), well, then you really do need to leave. So sorry.

If immigration is really concerned about stopping the loans, then all they have to do is amend the regulations to require the 800k be in your Thai bank account all year for retirement extensions. Effectively creating a 1 year seasoning period.

That would shake out a lot of us! I wish you hadn't said that, don't want to give them any ideas!

The current policy of course just makes qualifying via loan more expensive as you would have to pay juice for 3 months rather than a few days.

Bottom line, there is no safety net here. The vast majority of people who go broke find a way to get out of dodge, visa rules or no visa rules.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[TaoNow]

Just a minor rebuttal to Jingthing and Spiderxxxx:

I don't think Immigration cares about how much a retiree spends during the year. But they DO care if you make a mess and can't pay the bills. That is why they have set the bond at 800K baht for a year's duration.

So all this self-righteous talk about how much we great ex-pats spend in Thailand, and how Immigration should appreciate us because of it, let me say it again: THEY DON'T CARE.

'nuff said.

[Jingthing]

Just a minor rebuttal to Jingthing and Spiderxxxx:

I don't think Immigration cares about how much a retiree spends during the year. But they DO care if you make a mess and can't pay the bills. That is why they have set the bond at 800K baht for a year's duration.

So all this self-righteous talk about how much we great ex-pats spend in Thailand, and how Immigration should appreciate us because of it, let me say it again: THEY DON'T CARE.

'nuff said.

I think you are WAY OFF.

There is no such thing as a 800K bond! You can drain the account to zero the day after you get your extension if you like. We can suppose they want to make sure we have sufficient funds to live on in Thailand, they don't want paupers.

I never ever said they are checking our spending patterns, except at some rogue offices. I am saying IN GENERAL, the REASON there is such thing as a retirement visa extension classification is because we are seen as an overall benefit to Thailand. Not because we smell good but because we have MONEY to spend that creates THAI JOBS. This is an obvious truth.

So I am talking MACRO LEVEL. Retired foreigners are an overall economic benefit for Thailand. On the MICRO level if you can live on 10K baht a month (good for you) you are just as welcome as the million baht per month retiree just as long as you can meet the visa rules. I can assure you if MOST retirees were poverty cases spending nothing, they would be restructuring or canceling the retirement program here, because, it is indeed all about our MONEY. It isn't about our happiness or convenience, its not a humanitarian program to help out older people; rather we exist here for THAILAND's benefit.

Some of us including me are OK with this deal. Some aren't.

Cheers.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Artisi]

I will guess you mean being over age 50 and using the reason you wish to retire? Single entry I expect would be issued on the basis of your age alone. But don't recall any recent posts.

Good guess

I am 66 years old and the reason is retirement.

Live here on Tourist visas already for 17 months, I get a bit tired of the traveling to Laos twice a year , so I wish to have an Non Immigrant O.

I will demand end of this month an Non Immigrant O at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane without a proof of income declaration from the Dutch Embassy.

If they refuse no problem I suppose, then I can obtain again a 2 entree Tourist visa...

Lots of luck with your DEMAND - make too much noise and you might'nt be getting any visa - full stop.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Artisi

[lopburi3]

Lots of discussion, but no one responded on the question I posed below... Any answer???

I don't mean what exact 33.XX or 34.XX amount. I mean, what yardstick source/date for U.S. $-baht exchange rate does Thai immigration use for making that determination.

If you apply for retirement extension using the 65,000 baht per month income criteria, and you apply this August, how would Immigration calculate the exchange rate??

PS - As a side issue, I remember this question being posed elsewhere here, but not clearly answered as far as I could see.

If you're getting a U.S. Embassy letter and listing/reporting your monthly income in U.S. $, what source of exchange rate should you (the applicant) use to know you're meeting the 65,000 baht requirement. Or more to the point, what source of exchange rate will Thai immigration use in making THEIR calculation???

They usually ask you if it is close. Expect they would use the 33/34 figure when they run it. But they seem to accept a reasonable rate if you have one that is slightly different. AFAIK they do not have an exchange rate calculator on the wall but expect they could call up such from internet if required.

[dutch]

Lots of discussion, but no one responded on the question I posed below... Any answer???

I don't mean what exact 33.XX or 34.XX amount. I mean, what yardstick source/date for U.S. $-baht exchange rate does Thai immigration use for making that determination.

If you apply for retirement extension using the 65,000 baht per month income criteria, and you apply this August, how would Immigration calculate the exchange rate??

PS - As a side issue, I remember this question being posed elsewhere here, but not clearly answered as far as I could see.

If you're getting a U.S. Embassy letter and listing/reporting your monthly income in U.S. $, what source of exchange rate should you (the applicant) use to know you're meeting the 65,000 baht requirement. Or more to the point, what source of exchange rate will Thai immigration use in making THEIR calculation???

They usually ask you if it is close. Expect they would use the 33/34 figure when they run it. But they seem to accept a reasonable rate if you have one that is slightly different. AFAIK they do not have an exchange rate calculator on the wall but expect they could call up such from internet if required.

I suppose there is such a thing as a government exchange rate.They use it for customs and tax purposes.

(at least that is the case in Indonesia)

[buzzer]

Hi,

In an earlier post you wondered where the OP was. I'm here. Thanks Jingthing for answering my questions about how to get a decent visa at, or close to, a border. That's all I was asking. A lot of speculation about if I'm rich or poor, am on a pension, or have health insurance? If I go around begging rice early in the mornings with the monks - that's my business.

Your questions about all this are simply that - questions. I came seeking answers about a specific thing. How best to get back to my old visa status. And I gave a warning to others that are affected by the 800K law. Oh... I also threw in a quote from the Thai Immigration leaflet intended to make this 800K baht rule clear - because I thought it ironically humorous. That's all!

Everything I included other than the questions were just background that I thought might be of help to others, as my personal experiences show how the immigration office changed radically from the way they treated me last year to the way they treated me this year. I gave enough info to warn people to obey the 'seasoning rule'. So, besides asking a question, I wanted to point this out for others' benefit. But that's not enough. Some people just are not satisfied until they dig into peoples' lives to uncover the dirt. So here it is...

Last year I was merely delayed and so I didn't make the wire transfer on time for the beginning of the 3 month seasoning period. Then the emergency came up. Some of you assumed it was a health emergency - in that you were right! But it was to get a foreign national woman over a health crisis after returning her to her home country. This health crisis, her doctor diagnosed, as a severe kidney infection+stones brought about by drinking the water in Thai prison for 2 years. She was a guest there after her drug-dealer boyfriend paid off his police cronies to have her thrown in there after he beat her up. So, to pay for some urgent medical bills for this lady I wired out some money that I should have kept in the bank, seasoning.

Immigration didn't know about this, but saw that I deposited the money late, and that it dropped far below 800K, and that I brought it back up to 800K a couple days before my yearly check in. They had the letter from my bank, and all my bank books, which they made photocopies of. They spent about 1/2 an hour pouring over them. They didn't say a word. Just gave me my passport renewed, and ready to go - with a smile.

This year, there was a similar situation. But I made sure i had more than 1M in the bank before the beginning of the seasoning period. A friend had major problems with his visa which necessitated a return trip to his home land, another friend contracted TB. but that didn't cost me much. So, after the previous years experience, I was fairly confident that I'd be OK. The money was in on time, the amount dipped less below the 800K than the previous year, and it was only for a couple weeks that it was in an improperly seasoned state, and I brought it up to 800K+ quite a long time before my check-in date, not just a couple of days before, as in the case of the previous year. So, stupid me, I went in to the immigration office thinking I was in better shape than the year before.

In future, I'm going to have to tell my friends to time their emergencies so that they don't occur during the months of May through August.

I actually have a better plan though.

I'm very surprised that no one commented on the statement I quoted in my OP. This is from the leaflet that Thai Immigration hands out so that all of us English speaking Farang can fully understand the seasoning process.

LEAFLET TITLE: Document required for the application of non-immigrant visa extension

Section subtitle: Documents required to extend staying for senior citizens (over 50 years old)

Requirement: 3. A Current letter from a Bank in Thailand showing a balance of not less than 800,000 baht By showing the saving account statement for 3 month earlier

How would a 3rd grade English teacher score this in terms of grammar? How about in terms of communication?

Oh! My plan for next year? I've had it! I'm leaving Thailand. I came here 6 years to find a nice, loving, honest Thai wife, that would help me as I grow into old age. It took one short-term girlfriend, and listening to the experiences of others, to burst that balloon. I came here thinking I could buy a nice house I couldn't afford in Hawaii, maybe a small farm. Can't do that either. There was also the lure of good health care, not realizing that all but the swankiest hospitals are barely out of the dark ages, so, for me, the cure here is worse than the disease. I came for paradise, and got paracetamol.

Thanks - Buzzer

rather we exist here for THAILAND's benefit.

[copndocsdad]

This just keeps getting stranger every time I read about the 800,000 baht bank balance. The lawyer I use in Bkk said this rule did not apply if you could show an income equivalent to about 65,000 baht a month. I do not know what is true but I guess I will find out since when I retire here in Dec 2009.

I will be able to show the 65,000 baht income from monthly retirement income but to maintain 800,000 balance forever seems to be a major obstacle.

I just sign an statement at the American embassy saying how much I earn a month and swear this is true, they stamp the paper and I am out the door. So far nobody has asked about a bank balance and I have a multi entry exit visa god for one year. I do not know if being married to a Thai makes any difference in the 800,000 balance. If that is the case, I will be renting forever just to keep 800,000 in the bank.

I have to apply for a retirement visa next and I think that means beginning the process all over again with a 90 day visa then a one year type O and I have to check in the local city clerk where I will be living every 90 days to show I am still in Thailand.

NONE of this is easy unless yo

u hire a lawyer to make sure it is done properly. The well intended advice given here is like getting 20 opinions and no two are ever the same on any subject.

[lopburi3]

1. The rule is 800k in bank or 65k or combination. If you have the 65k income you do not need the money in bank.

2. If you have a multi entry non immigrant O visa now (90 day stays) you can change during the last 30 days of any entry to retirement extension of stay if over age 50. All you will need is the Embassy letter, copies of your passport/departure card a 4x6cm current photo and 1,900 baht for the TM.7 You surly do not need a lawyer.

[Jingthing]

1. The rule is 800k in bank or 65k or combination. If you have the 65k income you do not need the money in bank.

2. If you have a multi entry non immigrant O visa now (90 day stays) you can change during the last 30 days of any entry to retirement extension of stay if over age 50. All you will need is the Embassy letter, copies of your passport/departure card a 4x6cm current photo and 1,900 baht for the TM.7 You surly do not need a lawyer.

Agreed with all of that, except that at least some offices (Pattaya) you do need a Thai bank account of any size (for example 500 baht) AND a bank balance letter, even if you fully qualify financially with an embassy letter. Probably not needed at Bangkok, but someone using Bangkok that way will need to verify.

I also agree its not that hard. Just listen to people who know what they are talking about, like Lopburi3 and frankly myself.

I can't imagine where that poster was led to believe that you need 800K in the bank AND a pension over 65K per month. Who said that? Of course that is completely wrong.

The complexities that do exist occur are mostly around peculiarities of enforcement between offices. This being Thailand, its a good idea to follow what is going on at the specific office you use. However, in general, you don't need a lawyer.

To summarize, there are three basic methods, this represents the STANDARD rules, ignoring enforcement variations from some offices:

800K in the bank only, money seasoned 2 months for first extension, 3 months for subsequent extensions (the balance cannot go under 800K during that period)

Combo method, embassy letter showing income PLUS Thai bank account, combined totaling 800K or more; with this method, no money seasoning required for the bank account portion

Embassy letter method, showing 65K baht per month income of some kind

That's it.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Whiplash]

If you are married to a Thai the amount is only 400k in the bank (if it hasnt changed lately) marriage has to be registered in Thailand though..

[Jingthing]

If you are married to a Thai the amount is only 400k in the bank (if it hasnt changed lately) marriage has to be registered in Thailand though..

Yes, thanks, but the topic is RETIREMENT extensions, yes?

[lopburi3]

The amount for retirement extension of stay does not change if you are married. But you have another option for extension of stay and that requirement is 400k in bank or 40k income for marriage. Paperwork is not the same and there is an under review period to check on marriage status.

[Whiplash]

If you are married to a Thai the amount is only 400k in the bank (if it hasnt changed lately) marriage has to be registered in Thailand though..

Yes, thanks, but the topic is RETIREMENT extensions, yes?

YES, i know that.. i just wanted to give another option here if he wasn't aware of it.. as it is an easier one too..

[moe666]

As always plenty of good info from Lopburi3 and Jing but as usual the voices of we are not wanted. I guess I just donot get it the Thais try and inforce there visa rules and in the case of the OP a break one year that allowed him to stay.

I guess one should understand Thai Immigration laws and should consider were they are retireing before they make the move. It's not a paradise just another country with its own set of problems.

[alantheembalmer]

1. The rule is 800k in bank or 65k or combination. If you have the 65k income you do not need the money in bank.

2. If you have a multi entry non immigrant O visa now (90 day stays) you can change during the last 30 days of any entry to retirement extension of stay if over age 50. All you will need is the Embassy letter, copies of your passport/departure card a 4x6cm current photo and 1,900 baht for the TM.7 You surly do not need a lawyer.

Lopburi3

Just a point of clarification needed. You say in point 2 that you need a multi entry non immigrant O visa. Can it also be a single entry non immigrant O visa?

Alan

[Jingthing]

Can it also be a single entry non immigrant O visa?

Yes, it can.

[alantheembalmer]

Can it also be a single entry non immigrant O visa?

Yes, it can.

Jingthing

Thanks for the prompt answer. I needed to know, because the single entry is what I've got!

Alan

[RPCVguy]

Hi,

These are some pretty basic questions. I wish the search engine on Thaivisa worked better, I wouldn't have to bother you with them.

I have had a retirement non-immigrant "O-A" visa for almost 6 years, and have never left Thailand during that time. Due to health problems that are made worse by the rigors of travel, I avoid it. I had an emergency expenditure during the last 3 months which compromised my bank balance, which dipped below 800K baht. Immigration told me,

Thought this might be of interest - it's from the immigration office, and clearly explains the need for maintaining an 800K Baht balance in your account for the 3 months between your last, and first, check-in of the year. Or does it?

Document requited for the application of non-immigrant visa extension

Section: Documents required to extend staying for senior citizens (over 50 years old)

3. A Current letter from a Bank in Thailand showing a balance of not less than 800,000 baht By showing the saving account statement for 3 month earlier

But, please don't let this controversial statement side-track you. What I really need is answers for my questions at the top.

Thanks again - Buzzer

Are you receiving SSDI/SSA (USA) or any other form of income from outside Thailand?

If so it reduces the amount you must maintain in the bank equal to the amount in income you recieve.

Simple and easy calculation only you will need a Notorized Income statement from your Embassy which are easy to obtain in BKK or C/M.

The Thai Ministry Dept has a good website that explains this.

Just a bit of advise, make sure you have all the documents that are asked from them before you go to renew your Visa. If you have a doctors letter stating you should avoid travel take a copy of it in case you need it. Also keep with you proof of the income that you have claimed at the Embassy just in case you are asked to show evidence more than the financial statement.

Stick with your retirement extension visa.

PS I am in the same boat to as my doctors have told me to not fly any longer due to health concerns.

For anything involving the US Embassy or consulate, you'll first need to go on-line and book an appointment. I've not gone since they stopped taking people via a cue on the "two mornings" that formerly were accepted in C/M. The stories are already leaking of wasted trips, zero excuses, rigidity of policy. Still, I know I'll need to go this route to list my SSI once I am of age to apply. Other posts are accurate - a combined annual cash flow plus savings of over 800K should fix your problem... If you can get these done before your extension expires.

[lopburi3]

Any emergency situation can be done without an appointment.

In order to serve you better, the American Citizen Services section uses an appointment system for all non-emergency services to include notarials, passport services, and registering a child as an American citizen (Consular Report of Birth Abroad.) We will continue to provide emergency services on an as needed basis. Please note: We do not allow walk-in customers to register a child as an American citizen. You must have an appointment for this service.

[chiangmaikelly]

The letter can also come from the head office - so any branch can obtain that for you. And I have done so with Bangkok Bank.

This varies from bank to bank. Anyone with this concern needs to visit their local bank and ask them directly. There have been reports of people needing to travel long distances to get this letter. The other issue with this is that immigration needs the bank letter to be fresh. How fresh is subjective from the same day to no longer than a week.

Have gotten four letters from four branches of Bank of Bangkok for four years no problem. My account is in Chiang Mai but I got the letters in four other cities at the main Bank of Bangkok branch in each of the other cities. Some branches don't seem to be able to type so the main bank in any town is the best bet. I keep a copy of last years letter so they know what I want.

[jbeck]

1. The rule is 800k in bank or 65k or combination. If you have the 65k income you do not need the money in bank.

2. If you have a multi entry non immigrant O visa now (90 day stays) you can change during the last 30 days of any entry to retirement extension of stay if over age 50. All you will need is the Embassy letter, copies of your passport/departure card a 4x6cm current photo and 1,900 baht for the TM.7 You surly do not need a lawyer.

Agreed with all of that, except that at least some offices (Pattaya) you do need a Thai bank account of any size (for example 500 baht) AND a bank balance letter, even if you fully qualify financially with an embassy letter. Probably not needed at Bangkok, but someone using Bangkok that way will need to verify.

I also agree its not that hard. Just listen to people who know what they are talking about, like Lopburi3 and frankly myself.

I can't imagine where that poster was led to believe that you need 800K in the bank AND a pension over 65K per month. Who said that? Of course that is completely wrong.

The complexities that do exist occur are mostly around peculiarities of enforcement between offices. This being Thailand, its a good idea to follow what is going on at the specific office you use. However, in general, you don't need a lawyer.

To summarize, there are three basic methods, this represents the STANDARD rules, ignoring enforcement variations from some offices:

800K in the bank only, money seasoned 2 months for first extension, 3 months for subsequent extensions (the balance cannot go under 800K during that period)

Combo method, embassy letter showing income PLUS Thai bank account, combined totaling 800K or more; with this method, no money seasoning required for the bank account portion

Embassy letter method, showing 65K baht per month income of some kind

That's it.

jing - is a typical savings account at a thai bank sufficient, or is there a special type(s) of account needed for 800K money when getting the extension?