How Important Is Class?

[Falang Pan]

My chiropractor once told me that back pain comes suddenly. Irritated nerves send signals to the brain, but they are ignored until a critical threshold of pain is crossed, and then it's too late and you get big bad pain and muscle spasms that cause more pain and more muscle spasms.

So it is with love and forgiveness. In loving my dear girlfriend I can see her as a whole person, care for and respect her, and forgive her shortcomings and blind spots. Until a threshold is crossed, then, it's a cascade of disgust leading to arguments which leads to more disgust.

It was a visit to her family house.

I first met Sarah at Cebu's biggest disco, the Sunflower. I found her the cutest and most attractive woman in the club. She is 4'5" and her extremely cute little face confuses the brain perfectly as to her age. Is she 12? 21? The effect has men magnetized to her wherever she goes. Big eyes, small frame, there is no doubt that she is a woman and that she is young and fertile. To see her dance breaks down all defences, and all that men have left is the feeling of a magnet pulling. She gets marriage proposals from strangers. Young, handsome, rich, she gets phone numbers constantly, and the big flirt that she is she laps up the attention like the Pope laps up church donations. She wears special short skirts and ###### me pumps designed to get extra "unwanted" attention. She has the unfortunately out of sync style of only ######ing with romance, so she's only had 3 other lovers, all serious relationships.

I was perfectly drunk, she was perfectly attractive, and magnets did what magnets do. She came home with me, and she never left.

One month later, the neighbors are burning garbage, and we have to get out of the house. The smoldering plastic is unbearable. Time to hang out at her families place.

It's the poorer part of town, but they have a big compound with several buildings. They are a powerful neighborhood clan - 7 children to her dad and too many children to them to count. Even at 39 and rarely described as handsome, I'm a rock star in the neighborhood. All eyes on every spoonful of fish and rice. That's fine, but of course I don't decline the offer of rum and coke.

Then it's to the salon for karaoke. The fresh air and fresh children were a treat, but thankfully the cute youngsters followed us in. I have a new adopted niece - the little delight instantly cuddled up to me and called me uncle. A face that goes right to primal monkey in me - she is instantly my girl. Sarah gets jealous. Really, not kidding. I try to joke with her. Sarah! Don't be jealous! After a some small drinks, Sarah "jokes" with her 2 year old niece, slapping her, playfully but too hard for a 2 year old to understand as a joke. Screaming at her, playfully, but too loud for a two year old to understand as playful. I restrain Sarah, quietly chastise her, and tell her to control herself. Sarah is full of vim, pissing out love and smacks from every pore. She has no care for boundaries, and expects others to sort out what is what.

Her brother fancies himself a preacher, and his drunken heart is the heart of a loving man. His warm presence is the question: what is the importance of class? He tells me he wants me to get him a western woman, and that he wants to move to the US and be a doctor or a farmer because he knows he'll earn good money there. At 35 he has been out of work for several years and did not go to college. He shows me his house and wants comments. Could he attract a western woman with that? The first floor room gives it's initial impression by the walls. Half thickness concrete bricks are loosely held together with mortar. Other than being properly vertical, the walls show no sign of craftsmanship - big gaps in the mortar, the grey 1/2 thickness bricks being of dubious quality and substance. "How long have you lived here?" "Two years". There is nothing. Not a piece of furniture, not a lick of paint, no signal of any movement to attend to aesthetics of the place. Upstairs. The floor is made of wood. That at least shows some life - wood panelling is warm. The walls are dead, and even more potently barren. "Yes, if you have a bed it would be good to also have a woman. Where is your bed" Back downstairs, and I see a short wooden bench with a thin blanket. "That's it".

Why didn't he go out to the beach and gather sand and limestone to mix mortar to smooth the walls? Why didn't he borrow a truck to gather wood to make some furniture? Poverty can't excuse a lack of labour - the place was barren of any sense of aesthetics. As if he didn't know any better.

Back to the salon. I've spent time in a better looking jail. Ok, but the people are nice. But she's screaming at her two year old niece, then demanding kisses from her so aggressively that she cries. We all need a drink. I've had 10.

Tipping point.

My dear Sarah, the little woman for whom my heart hurts for want to give her love, is now an anti-intellectual. She's great in bed. It just get's better each time, and the sex is as frequent as it is loud. But there is this whole chunk missing, and I see how important that chunk is. I can't just love and forgive her her faults, if that chunk will always be missing. I try to explain that it disappoints me that all my proddings can't get her to read my stickmanbangkok.com reader submissions. I tell her I don't want to sound impatient, and that I want to care for her and attend to her growing up, but that I want to see some signs of interest on her part in anything of the mind. I fear that it is too late - her upbringing has made anything mental of no consequence to her. A sort of idiot savant.

The signals are cramming my brain. Pain. Being savant, she feels my pain as if it were her own. She tells me she wants me to find a girlfriend that I will really love. That's a good thing about Filipinas - the seem to really respect that someone needs a mate that they love, and if they don't feel loved, they will push you to get out and get serious about someone you can love. Jealous, yes, but it comes out practically.

We go home, we sober up, and we make up. But I think some readers here can resonate with the background music of this movie. The thought that screamed it's way into consciousness was that I must limit myself to college educated women of at least 3 generations of wealth. Money old enough such that the children can appreciate aesthetics and hard work yet not be hypnotized by material status. "I want to be a doctor or a farmer, am I good enough to get a western woman, please bring me a wife"?? Screaming at a two year old for fun. Much infidelity and plenty of wife beating in the family. Gangsters running the neighborhood. Do I love Sarah? Do I forgive her past? Where is the tipping point between acceptance and fostering her growth and choosing my minimums and moving on.

Well, she's 21. I'm good experience for her, and she is in many ways good and caring for me. What does the reader feel is the way the plot should turn? Hollywood ending of love enduring and leading to personal growth? A sex-in-the-city ending of moving into a new relationship? There is not yet an easy call, but the scales are moving despite my conscious thinking. It happens unconsciously. People fall out of love.

Do other people here feel any tension in their relationships because of class differences?

[Lars]

"Class differences"??

She's a human, you're a human, right?

"Forgive her shortcomings and blindspots"

Speechless,really...

[Ithailian]

Dude - That's a very well written post on a complicated issue.

I think there are two fundemental questions here.

1. If it were you and her stranded on an island, all alone, do you think you would stay in love with her? ... or would you get quickly sick of her inability to talk about anything intellegent? If you know you could love her, then you've got 1/2 your battle conquered ... your internal battle. If you think maybe, well then play along and see how it goes.... but start to mix it up a little with other girls to make comparisons... you will answer your own question with experience.

2. Who do you mix with? If you are a professional and you mix (or will mix) with upper class Philipinos or Thais, they will know her for who she is instantly. Does this matter to you? It will matter to them and they will judge you because of it. You will not be able to have her pretend to be what she isn't. Unfortunatly, her lack of class/education will damage your reputation, face, and chances of success. This is an issue whether you are an English teacher or a high-level businessman. Furthermore, you may think it's not an issue now, but what about 10 years from now? That said, you may be able to escape this problem by taking her to the West where her beauty/exoticness will mask shortcomings. But ... you know ... she will be rare here just like a Ferrari. Everyone will admire her, want to drive her, and some will try to steal her . You would open yourself up to a different flavor of pain and suffering.

Anyway, best of luck ... at least you are asking yourself the right questions now before you get too serious... I think you already know the answer.

[Gumballl]

Falang Pan -

I think that what Ithailian has posted is right on the mark. If you are asking questions about if someone is right for you or not, the answer is probably not.

I also find myself in the same predicament as you, except my situation is a wee bit more complicated... my TGF just recently gave birth to our baby daughter. I would like to bring the GF and the baby to the US, but I fear that the GF will not be able to assimilate into a non-Thai culture.

Her inability to speak English well enough to hold a 5-minute conversation somewhat worries me. I know that she could eventually learn English and perhaps speak it proficiently, but I already know that she lacks the desire to better herself educationally. She reads no books, nor newspapers or magazines.... whether in English or Thai. Her knowledge of Thailand, and even of the world is quite poor, and this probably stems from her educational background, or lack thereof. Her family is no different.

Therefore, I ask myself the question everyday concerning whether I should continue with her. To this day, I still have not found the answer. I think that if it were not for our baby girl, I would leave her. I know that there are better (and more maintenance-free) fish in the sea.

Anyhow, good luck searching for the answer(s) to your dilemma.

Edited March 6, 2005 by Gumballl

[Jaime]

Some really good stuff in this thread, starting with great commentary by Falang Pan. I suppose one could say that my wife is my social inferior - I am an architect and she is a rural Thai and we've lived in the UK for over 5 years now. I have been through the kind of dilemma you describe and come out the other side feeling that, despite her lack of sophistication, there is a wealth of life experience that we can and will enjoy together - raising a family has proved a testing time - but we both have to tailor our needs somewhat to account for each others background and aspirations. It seems from your post that you already have a feeling that this won't be possible and I have to say that the picture you paint of rural life in the Phillipines is rather more chaotic and desperate than the one I have been exposed to in Thailand.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Jaime

[Boon Mee]

I think there are two fundemental questions here.

1.  If it were you and her stranded on an island, all alone, do you think you would stay in love with her?  ... or would you get quickly sick of her inability to talk about anything intellegent? 

2.  Who do you mix with?  If you are a professional and you mix (or will mix) with upper class Philipinos or Thais, they will know her for who she is instantly. yourself up to a different flavor of pain and suffering.

Brings to mind that comment Captain Bligh made to Fletcher Christian when Christian was "smitten" with the native girl: "My God man, do you think a woman like that would be accepted back home"? or words to that effect.

Class is very important to some - doesn't mean that much to others...

[Abandon]

I don't think Falang Pan has been completely straight with people in this forum.

He is Thai, a trained psychologist, journalist, and media presenter (and a good one). But I'm not sure of the angle for a trained psychologist throwing around topics such as Piaget's theory of cognitive development, or 'higher' ego development and integrity (other threads) on a forum such as this, especially without stating the psychological background.

Is he researching? Stuck between his two cultural backgrounds? Are his questions those of patients or people he knows?

Cool avatar by the way. Pity that the low resolution does not do it justice. It is called the Male Brain and shows men and women in compromising positions - a joke on the sexual obsession of men. Any link for the full picture? I'd like to use it too for presentations, it's a hoot.

[ProThaiExpat]

The original post in this thread was quite well written and poses an almost eternal problem.

My experience has taught me that there is only a small percentage of people in this world equipped to live a successful and happy expat life. It might be a good thread to deal with the qualitiies one can identify in successful and happy expats.

My view is that the less educated and culturally limited one is, the more one is likely to be a "fish out of water" living in another country.

My Thai is from a rural background and very westernized but I have decided that long time happiness dictates I not "take the fish out of water", as I am better equipped to live abroad.

By mutual agreement, I don't visit family in Issan and all is working well after three years. Sin sot was involved and seems to have done the trick. I would certainly be more of a "fish out of water" there than here, so accomodations to reality have been made.

I have read many posts regarding the importance of visiting your "thai family", but not doing so has worked for me.

[Falang Pan]

I don't think Falang Pan has been completely straight with people in this forum.

He is Thai, a trained psychologist, journalist, and media presenter (and a good one). But I'm not sure of the angle for a trained psychologist throwing around topics such as Piaget's theory of cognitive development, or 'higher' ego development and integrity (other threads) on a forum such as this, especially without stating the psychological background.

Is he researching? Stuck between his two cultural backgrounds? Are his questions those of patients or people he knows?

Cool avatar by the way. Pity that the low resolution does not do it justice. It is called the Male Brain and shows men and women in compromising positions - a joke on the sexual obsession of men. Any link for the full picture? I'd like to use it too for presentations, it's a hoot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Pandit. Thanks for the compliments, but there is no interesting background to my posts - they are straight. I'm a white Canadian male without any professional writing or psychology training.

The male brain is here male brain picture www.funnyjunk.com/p/malebrain-gif.html

[Falang Pan]

What troubles me most are two things - that a respect for careful honesty hasn't yet been learned, and that I see no fire of curiosity. Even if a person was from the best background, without those two things I can't see myself thinking of marriage. A friend of mine said to me that a good background can foster education, but of itself won't ensure becoming a human of genuine class. She says that reading is the only path to learning, and that she can't bring herself to be interested in anyone who doesn't read.

I suppose that in any country and in any class, people with a fire burning inside them and a thirst for understanding and the personal growth required for deepening in understanding are relatively rare. Most of us really just don't much care, most of the time. But learning and the uncompromising respect for truth that learning requires is a value held very deeply by me, and I can't have deep respect for a partner who doesn't also require learning in her life. I guess I also want a partner who reads.

But she is only 21, and is still growing up. That is why I'm really questioning. From the first date I've offered to send her to college. She really hates that idea, and always refuses. I could force her to go, but that wouldn't really be the same thing. It has to be her fire. And college might not be her thing - maybe her thing is music or art. I just need her to find her fire before what we are doing can qualify as being mates.

[Darknight]

But she is only 21, and is still growing up.

Well there is your only problem

you're 39 she's 21..

YOu have to guide her into the woman you want her to be or she wants to be.

things that seem so natural to you (like advancement in life) are things that are not on her mind yet. she's just out of being a teenager.

You'll only need patience . before she will take anything from you she'll have to experience something by which she learns you can guide her. trying to push will only make it more difficult.

it takes time

[Falang Pan]

things that seem so natural to you (like advancement in life) are things that are not on her mind yet. she's just out of being a teenager.

You'll only need patience

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that brings up another question. Did you ever wonder if people are born with certain personaity traits, and if these traits remain relatively fixed? One of my brothers would never be described as a curious man. The other is moderately curious. I am very curious. A friend said of me that I have a hard-on for ideas. I can't teach or guide Sarah into caring about learning - that has to come from within her. Or can I? Just how far can inspiration go to lighting the fire of curiosity? In my experience with dating 12 Thai girls and one woman from Bali, it goes nowhere. People need the fire to begin with.

Edited March 8, 2005 by Falang Pan

[Darknight]

things that seem so natural to you (like advancement in life) are things that are not on her mind yet. she's just out of being a teenager.

You'll only need patience

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that brings up another question. Did you ever wonder if people are born with certain personaity traits, and that these traits remain relatively fixed? One of my brothers would never be described as a curious man. The other is moderately curious. I am very curious. A friend said of me that I have a hard on for ideas. I can't teach or guide Sarah into caring about learning - that has to come from within her. Or can I? Just how far can inspiration go to lighting the fire of curiosity? In my experience with dating 12 Thai girls and one woman from Bali, it goes nowhere. People need the fire to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with that completely , it's the inner charachter that gives the drive to learn or not. But that doesn't mean a relationship between two people who are different in that opinion can't work .

As it sounds it for you an thing you can't overcome i would suggest you look for that identical curios type. but i don't think you'll find many in thailand's up country.

Their curiosity never has been set a light , which started from the time they were a baby. most of the time the mothers just wanted them to sleep and be quiet.

i saw it with a friend of mine who taught his daughter all kind of things a small child. the neighbour came to ask how old she was as she was lively and already walking around while her baby was hanging on her arm not even intrested in stuff just staring away.

Turned out that her baby was one month older...

As the family obviously never stimulated any of their children (see the brother) how could she have learned to investigate and get better..

Most asian cultures don't put the accent on getting better yourself like we do in the west, here everything has to be in competition. in asia everything has to be in harmony and socially acceptable first. You'll find a big lack of ambition in rural thais.

Indeed you can't force her in learning as it has to come from her. but with some time (1 year; 2 years) you can make her realise that the teenage years are over and if she wants something she needs to do it for herself.

My wife and me were kinda in the same situation although i didn't have the family to deal with and our age difference is not that high. i'm 37 and she's 27 now met when she was 24 but we had the same arguments some times.

She is not stupid by a long shot but she has never learned to concentrate , and thus never learned to learn. so we went through the occasional arguments as for example she came to ask me how something worked and stopped listening after two minutes. Now i'm not the person to explain something to a wall so that gave some arguments

She actually realised she had to do it herself after staying in europe for a while and seeying everything was not that easy here.

When we stayed in thailand for a year last year she said "thailand has changed a lot since i've been here"

I said "tilak, you've changed since you've been here"

Now i feel everyday more in love as i see her becoming more and more a stronger woman , capable of handling problems and learning stuff. she has matured a lot lately.

If you need some degree of change i would suggest you take her out of her normal environment (family, village, friends) for a while and expose her to some other experiences. it might make her realize there's more then the family and som-tam....

[Jai Dee]

Now i feel everyday more in love as i see her becoming more and more a stronger woman , capable of handling problems and learning stuff. she has matured a lot lately. 

Nice post Darknight.

And I bet you're proud of her too.

I am of mine.

[peterzxr]

Now i feel everyday more in love as i see her becoming more and more a stronger woman , capable of handling problems and learning stuff. she has matured a lot lately.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice post Darknight.

And I bet you're proud of her too.

I am of mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, great post Jai Dee (all of it) and so true.

My GF who is 32 has "come on" in leaps and bounds in just six months in the UK in terms of her self confidence and her desires and expectations. It's not that she didn't already have some before but now everything seems to be tinged with a hint of realism and not the total fantasy that Thai Girls seem to have about life with a farang.

She's made connections here with other 'mia farang' and also with some of my english friends and started to realise that to get anywhere in life will require hard work and not just being lucky enough to find the right man to do it all for her. The missus still does and for a long time yet will require nurturing in order to realise her potential in the way she wants to but that's all part of the experience and adventure of our relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way.

So far, and when I think about it, I'm so proud of her I could cry.

Still, by this time next week she'll be the wife and not the GF and in three months time, when we've relocated to Thailand, she'll be helping me as much as I have her. Hopefully we'll find the balance needed to make a long lasting and workable marriage in LOS and hopefully she'll be able to shrug off the weight of the Thai culture bearing down on her and stil continue to develop herself.

So, that's what it's about IMHO - teaching each other and helping each other develop as people together.

[peterzxr]

Sorry Jai Dee meant Darknight's post - didn't mean to do anyone a disservice

[Darknight]

Still, by this time next week she'll be the wife and not the GF and in three months time, when we've relocated to Thailand, she'll be helping me as much as I have her. Hopefully we'll find the balance needed to make a long lasting and workable marriage in LOS and hopefully she'll be able to shrug off the weight of the Thai culture bearing down on her and stil continue to develop herself.

So, that's what it's about IMHO - teaching each other and helping each other develop as people together.

Well my wife sure did with me when we were there.

it's indeed about helping each other and becoming a team. were-ever you stay.

Next hurdle is getting her a drivers license

now that's promising to be fun

Edited March 8, 2005 by Darknight

[Sir Burr]

Blimey, the OP is now posted on Stickman.

[snoophound]

Its a tough one especialy when the girls are in a foreign land.

I live in Aus and have a senior exec role.

My lady has been here 10 years and is 41,she dresses impeccably,tries to cover social functions with that beautiful thai smile,only gets mao with her thai friends.

Usual scenario is a work or corp event,she looks understatedly hot ,the fat and forty falang women scream and cackle and suck champagne and chardonnay,she tries to mix in but generaly sticks by me,and gets leered on by overly horny middle aged execs.

I think she displays enormous CLASS,is she from a wealthy background? No ,but she is a BKK girl,so a bit more wordly than say a girl from the North East.

All in All i guess its how you define class?

Her biggest inferiority complex is her english,she reckons shes too old to go back to school and get it polished up.

That unfort will be self perpetuating problem due to the fact that she pretty much exclusively socialises with thai friends and they exclusiviely speak thai.

Now i feel everyday more in love as i see her becoming more and more a stronger woman , capable of handling problems and learning stuff. she has matured a lot lately.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice post Darknight.

And I bet you're proud of her too.

I am of mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, great post Jai Dee (all of it) and so true.

My GF who is 32 has "come on" in leaps and bounds in just six months in the UK in terms of her self confidence and her desires and expectations. It's not that she didn't already have some before but now everything seems to be tinged with a hint of realism and not the total fantasy that Thai Girls seem to have about life with a farang.

She's made connections here with other 'mia farang' and also with some of my english friends and started to realise that to get anywhere in life will require hard work and not just being lucky enough to find the right man to do it all for her. The missus still does and for a long time yet will require nurturing in order to realise her potential in the way she wants to but that's all part of the experience and adventure of our relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way.

So far, and when I think about it, I'm so proud of her I could cry.

Still, by this time next week she'll be the wife and not the GF and in three months time, when we've relocated to Thailand, she'll be helping me as much as I have her. Hopefully we'll find the balance needed to make a long lasting and workable marriage in LOS and hopefully she'll be able to shrug off the weight of the Thai culture bearing down on her and stil continue to develop herself.

So, that's what it's about IMHO - teaching each other and helping each other develop as people together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Abandon]

Did you ever wonder if people are born with certain personaity traits, and if these traits remain relatively fixed

You were bringing up Piagets Developmental theory in another thread - that is not well known stuff, not even pop psychology - you have trained in psychology and so why now are you trying to troll comments from people who have not?

I was perfectly drunk, she was perfectly attractive, and magnets did what magnets do. She came home with me, and she never left.

And you say you are not a journalist, well a professional one. I am a failed pro writer and I know that people do not just come out with sentances like that. OK, I won't bring it up again - you can be whoever you want in cyberspace but you are not being straight with people. I have seen one of your talks in Bangkok and wonder what you are trying to prove - how little regular folk know about psychology? How are you going to use the views you have trolled from multiple forums? I am not going to post up information about you that cannot be gleaned from your other posts here as it's your choice. But... e.g.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21587&hl=

What are you trying to achieve here?

Edited March 8, 2005 by pandit35

[Jai Dee]

I don't think Falang Pan has been completely straight with people in this forum.

He is Thai, a trained psychologist, journalist, and media presenter (and a good one).

Hi Pandit. Thanks for the compliments, but there is no interesting background to my posts - they are straight. I'm a white Canadian male without any professional writing or psychology training.

Interesting news pandit35... a troll.

I note that you jumped on his earlier postings too.

A good subject to discuss, but as you say, what is he trying to elicit from the forum and for what purpose?

[Abandon]

Here's one of his posts on another (filipino) forum.

You suggest that it is my lack of understanding and compassion and respect for different cultures and upbringings that leads to inflexibility which is the brunt of the friction. Instead of arguing that point, I'd like to point out that women of all backgrounds born and raised here always warn me to be very careful of other women here - some are players only after money they say. Whenever I mention a new friend, the first question is "where is she from, where does she live, exactly". Philippinos are extremely class sensitive, from I can gather. On another thread on this forum there is a poll regarding what age, education, class (upper, middle, lower, etc) Filipina wives and their husbands are. Many Filipinas explained that it was important for them to marry a man of the same or higher class, and most who answered also showed that they valued education, learning, and career for both themself and their mate. One insightful woman pointed out that people do not fall in love randomly, but that subconsciously we already have our filters in place for a very particular type of person who will be acceptable to us.

They seem to have removed his original post but others there quote him

Jenny "jokes" with her 2 year old niece, slapping her, playfully but too hard for a 2 year old to understand as a joke. Screaming at her, playfully, but too loud for a two year old to understand as playful.

...pissing out love and smacks from every pore. She has no care for boundaries...

she's screaming at her two year old niece, then demanding kisses from her so aggressively that she cries.

Screaming at a two year old for fun. Much infidelity and plenty of wife beating in the family.

http://www.filipinawives.com/asawa/viewtopic.php?t=10645

Things are a bit worse there than here:

After a some small drinks, Sarah "jokes" with her 2 year old niece, slapping her, playfully but too hard for a 2 year old to understand as a joke. Screaming at her, playfully, but too loud for a two year old to understand as playful. I restrain Sarah, quietly chastise her, and tell her to control herself. Sarah is full of vim, pissing out love and smacks from every pore

But then again he is talking about Sarah here, and Jenny there.

That's not the only place he posted and adjusted his story.

Troll.

Edited March 9, 2005 by pandit35

[peterzxr]

Having checked out Falang Pan's previous post as suggested I must agree that he's on some kina wind up.

I don't care about your background Falang Pan, but type in plain English for god's sake dude and you may get a better response to your posts

[Falang Pan]

Here's one of his posts on another (filipino) forum.

You suggest that it is my lack of understanding and compassion and respect for different cultures and upbringings that leads to inflexibility which is the brunt of the friction. Instead of arguing that point, I'd like to point out that women of all backgrounds born and raised here always warn me to be very careful of other women here - some are players only after money they say. Whenever I mention a new friend, the first question is "where is she from, where does she live, exactly". Philippinos are extremely class sensitive, from I can gather. On another thread on this forum there is a poll regarding what age, education, class (upper, middle, lower, etc) Filipina wives and their husbands are. Many Filipinas explained that it was important for them to marry a man of the same or higher class, and most who answered also showed that they valued education, learning, and career for both themself and their mate. One insightful woman pointed out that people do not fall in love randomly, but that subconsciously we already have our filters in place for a very particular type of person who will be acceptable to us.

They seem to have removed his original post but others there quote him

Jenny "jokes" with her 2 year old niece, slapping her, playfully but too hard for a 2 year old to understand as a joke. Screaming at her, playfully, but too loud for a two year old to understand as playful.

...pissing out love and smacks from every pore. She has no care for boundaries...

she's screaming at her two year old niece, then demanding kisses from her so aggressively that she cries.

Screaming at a two year old for fun. Much infidelity and plenty of wife beating in the family.

http://www.filipinawives.com/asawa/viewtopic.php?t=10645

Things are a bit worse there than here:

After a some small drinks, Sarah "jokes" with her 2 year old niece, slapping her, playfully but too hard for a 2 year old to understand as a joke. Screaming at her, playfully, but too loud for a two year old to understand as playful. I restrain Sarah, quietly chastise her, and tell her to control herself. Sarah is full of vim, pissing out love and smacks from every pore

But then again he is talking about Sarah here, and Jenny there.

That's not the only place he posted and adjusted his story.

Troll.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I made a mistake to use the name Sarah. In the Philippine forum I used a fictitious name, lest my frank open discussion somehow come back to hurt her.

Pandit, I have read all books by Ken Wilber, and I pay careful attention to developing my writing skills. I find open forums a great opportunity to bring these important ideas out into public discourse. I am part of society, and in my own small way would like to contribute, in the best ways I know how. I think, and I write. And I argue. That's what I do.

I have a high school education. I write well and know some things because I want to write well and I want to know some things. I don't need any diploma to be able to do that, and I don't need any hidden agenda to be able to do that.

I've been interested in writing ever since I was first given creative writing assignments in grade 4. Since then I've tried to do as good a job as I can in all that I write. After taking a one year long Buddhist vow to not lie, I also tried to be attentive to the spoken word. Speech is powerful, and I pay attention to it.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Falang Pan

[Falang Pan]

Below is another post I put on the philippine forum today. I post on both forums to get maximum feedback. You can imagine that I need people to talk to about this, and that writing about it helps me a great deal.

Jenny was telling me more of her life story, and she used the words "living hel" a lot. It was heartbreaking and disgusting to hear much of it. I guess she's kept her spirit and attitude fairly positive given her circumstances. At the age of 21 she is still in a window of development. After 25 people don't seem to change much. I'll still be doing my best to inspire her to open new areas of exploration in her life.

I'm sickened and angered at the abuse and waste that her abused parents put her through. Her mom married at about age 14, when the dad was 24, and despite the father being land wealthy, it just all went downhill from there. Her siblings did not pull themselves out of the muck, but instead piled up more. She tried to get out with a Pinoy boyfriend, but he was very abusive. She tried western guy, and he also beat her several times a week. On her third try she got a western playboy who lied about love and fidelity. By the time I met her I saw her lying to men on chat, claiming that no one believed any of it anyway.

I don't think she knows how to tell the truth yet, and she can't properly concentrate and organize her thoughts, despite being a smart girl. She lacked appropriate training and direction to learn how to organize thoughts and hold in depth conversation. One would think conversation is a natural talent, but Sarah sometimes jumps ahead of herself, as if she thinks she already explained the needed background details in her stories, like small children tend to do. She hasn't learned to see her whole conversation in her head all at once, and then let the story unfold in an understandable linear fashion. Instead it is all a jumble, and comes out piecemeal, with half truths wending their way slowly towards a bigger picture, like puzzle pieces randomly being placed down. And I never get the feeling that she is laying down all the pieces.

She's afraid I'm going to send her to school. I'm not going to force anything, but I'd be happy to see her take some classes focusing on literature study and creative writing. A few days ago I bought her art supplies, and last night she started writing a diary. She is not a lost cause, by a long shot, but much of her past is lost opportunities and worse. Well, yes, I'll say it, she is damaged goods who still needs to find a good role model and decent friends.

For now, we're staying together. Neither of us have any plans to marry. I'm not supporting her family and she doesn't waste my money. She's taking careful care of me. That's the best we can do for now. Although I don't trust her and want for someone with a more developed mind, I'm not ready to say goodbuy. She's still my daughter.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Falang Pan

[Falang Pan]

I don't care about your background Falang Pan, but type in plain English for god's sake dude and you may get a better response to your posts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Peter, my writing is dam# good, and you know it. If you find it hard to understand, get a dictionary - I'm not going to dumb myself down to your level.

I'm thankful for the many thoughtful and heartfelt replies to my posts, Peter. Yours is worth ignoring.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Falang Pan

[Falang Pan]

I was perfectly drunk, she was perfectly attractive, and magnets did what magnets do. She came home with me, and she never left.

And you say you are not a journalist, well a professional one. I am a failed pro writer and I know that people do not just come out with sentances like that.

I really lap up your compliments on my writing, Pandit. Thanks, it feels good to be appreciated. You know, that whole post came out in it's entirety - I didn't have to go back and re-organize and edit it. It came out all as one piece, and it seems to be fairly well organized, and even plays with going back and forth in time. I've never done that before. I guess writing a lot helps to develop writing, until you get a whole big piece that just comes out. I don't know how it happens. I don't try to think of good phrases, they just come out.

I know you want to think I'm some lecturer you met, but I'm as frank as I know how to be, and have never written professionally or given any lectures. I used to write on an old Ken Wilber forum, I've written a bit on this forum and on mangochat, and I often write emails to friends. Much of what I write is drunken drivel, but I'm trying to sober up.

Here is what I wrote to a budding writer friend of mine. I know this is off topic, but as you have an interest in writing, you might enjoy these thoughts.

------------

Unwritten books are calling you. You, the one with the talent and drive and focus to write them. And you'll immerse, create, edit, and from bubbly surf find that one clean line and carve artfully through fresh waves. Clean simple lines will evoke portraits and layers of relation. Not description, but wide insight distilled such that the very simple contains depth. Specific little examples will contain all your contexts. Like a master cartoonist - two lines for lip, one for both nose and eye, captures and creates a profile of femininity.

People will tell you ""that's exactly what I feel, but I didn't even know it until you put it into words". "A light went off in my head when I read that, and suddenly all the little pieces came together."

You'll re-read your own writing and marvel, sometimes laughing, sometimes amazed. Where does it come from and were you really thinking that all along, or did it just get invented? You'll do something new that is ephemeral, but more than a fart. You'll find that line - that one line that is calling to you. Like the bowler does - walking up to the lane, waiting for that feeling. Waiting until he isn't just aiming, but has the ball in his hands, has the full length of the lane in his arms, and feels the line that the pins are asking him to take. Waiting to have that feeling that tells him he feels the timing, he feels the moment moving him, and isn't just aiming and hoping he did it right. The object of your works will mingle with the subject. You'll be absorbed in your work, and from that become created and find yourself on paper, and be surprised.

People diminish words, saying they contain only duality. But that's duality fooling. It isn't the fault of the knife that it can only slice, and you can carve artful lines that contain more than the left side, or the right side. You can carve holes, you can carve eyes, you can prod the limits of pointing and tease language into little laughs, perhaps even shaking the immersed reader out of context, out past even the joke that language is context, shake the reader past even the mingling of reader and reading, to see little language from a vaster enviroment that is also at once inside/outside reader/read but not merely that immersion, not merely that flow, that perfect line. Bring the reader into your creative process, standing with you, not knowing where any of it comes from, celebrating, finding and throwing away and finding equilibrium and being behind it - being behind it. Who feels nausia? Who feels the suffering of humanity. Who feels multiplicity of context, communication between endless "us"es, who feels the interconnectedness of being? Where is that laugh? Where is the edge and who sees and mingles with the looking at the edge? Language focuses us on it's limits, and steers us to be artists - the act of creation and at once behind, no one knows where, behind. Vaster, not merely created, but not separate from being created. Good bowlers.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Falang Pan

[Darknight]

So if your girlfriend doesn't give them , you try to get your intellectual orgasms here ????

I called that being an arrogant prick

your tendency to boast about your writing only fuels your ego.

Maybe you should take some other buddhist vows as well

oh by the way , your topic is hereby closed

Edited March 9, 2005 by Darknight

[Darknight]

Falang Pan

After reviewing your previous posts your account is hereby revoked indefinitely.

Thaivisa.com is not a breeding ground for your writing and psychology experiments.

You might learn to show other posters some respect instead of trolling.