German Engineer Killed By Bomb In Chon Buri

[Scott]

So, is this Thailand's first suicide bomber?

I have trouble believing much of what the police say, so when they decide it's suicide, I take it with a huge grain of salt.

I also have trouble believing that a foreigner would have easy access to those explosives.

At any rate, this must be a terrible ordeal for the family.

[Sherlocke]

The roles of both parties must be investigated and made clear - there seems to be an assumption that the victim was an uninvolved innocent bystander?

It is also extremely likely - and becoming more and more apparent that the BIB are neither trained nor equipped to cope with the increasing number of crimes in what is an ever expending urban area. their treatment of "scenes of crime" as reported on TV is simply a joke....I would think that this was no exception

Edited August 24, 2009 by Sherlocke

[brahmburgers]

I find it hard to believe this is a suicide. Businessmen are used to coming up against obstacles, and find ways round them. Having a problem with financing a project is a common problem and committing suicide is not a way round it! Doing business on your own account in Thailand is risky, especially if there are large amounts of money involved and you are treading on other peoples toes. Also commiting suicide in this manner? The guy was obviously doing ok; I mean you don't need alot of money to have a good life here and if he had money problems he could have downsized his life. This is all sounds rather fishy to me. The police trying to explain it away as a suicide is an easy way to solve the crime without having to deal with another party who may be more powerful than them!

I agree. It sounds too fishy to me also - for various reasons which have been mentioned here. I know how Thais operate, and when given a choice, they'll take the lazy way out - and avoid the tough investigative work that's needed on a case like this.

I once had to speak to chief of Police in my adopted Thai town. He was sitting, leaning way back, in his swivel chair, staring 45 degrees up at a large TV bolted to the ceiling ....intently watching Tele-Tubbies (a show for pre-schoolers). True. When I tried to engage him in simple conversation, he would look at me for a half second, then swivel his head back to stare at the purple puppets dancing on the screen for a half minute or so - then look blankly back at me for a second, and so on. He responded semi-incoherently to my attempts at conversation about a serious legal matter. All I got from that encounter was a mushy request by him for 5,000 baht for him to possibly issue a warrant for someone's arrest.

I had another encounter, this time with several undercover police, and after a full hour of harassing me for a minor issue (not having my passport on my person), they gave up and sauntered off.

My impression of the overall work ethic of Thai cops is: there's a whole lot of room for improvement. It doesn't help when less qualified cops are promoted, and cops who show skills and intelligence are overlooked because they don't pay money (for promotions) or aren't well connected.

[losworld]

Here's a possible theory:

1) A large concrete project was completed and the victim was responsible for final inspection and signing off. Shortcuts took place (anyone remember the Montreal Olympics where sawdust was used instead of sand and the tower eventually toppled?) and the German refused to sign off in the sake of public safety.

They tried to force him to sign and, recognizing he had a bomb on him and was unlikely to walk away alive, he refused. Or he simply refused period.

I would think a good police force would be questioning the company as to what projects he was working on, etc.

Edited August 24, 2009 by losworld

[angiud]

see everything through their western judeo-christian moralistic goggles

Gulp. In my home country only a kind of people talk like that...

[Thai at Heart]

Firstly what a gruesome way to go whether a murder or not. My condolences to the family.

To the slightly more expert Sherlock Holmes' out there..

Do people commit suicide like this? Do Westerners as a rule commit suicide like this? Do middle aged married men with possible financial troubles commit suicide like this? I am not expecting FBI profilers to read this, but maybe someone has some professional insight.

He could have jumped off his balcony with a belly full of whiskey inside him or taken a load of pills.

I don't see that driving for 2 hours after bothering to get a hand grenade and then clutching onto his laptop in a completely unknown place is very plausible.

Aren't there cameras on the toll boothes? Not holding out too much hope that they work, but it would at least identify if someone was with him.

[Hawk]

At the end of the day he's a foreigner so who cares, just say its a suicide, case officially closed. Think back about how many other suicides there have been over the past few years, then you can see how easy it is to place this label on any and all "strange" foreign deaths.

But the thing is that it was not a suicide. And it was not a grenade either.

[redman]

Has it been proved that this man is who we think he is? No head, or even parts of a head found, car left around as a possible red herring, other bits of evidence which would point to it being him. Has it been confirmed?

[RickBradford]

^

Thai at heart

It seems that suicide by grenade is very unusual, but has happened in primarily military situations (soldier unwilling to be captured etc)

An Italian case makes the point that deaths like these are difficult to investigate: "The authors describe an unusual case of suicide that required particular attention to establish whether the victim was murdered, was preparing a terrorist attack or had committed suicide. Examination of the corpse and the crime scene, as well as testimonies, led the authors to determine the real cause of death, namely, an unusual method of suicide."

I am not suggesting any link between the cases.

[Rimmer]

Has it been proved that this man is who we think he is? No head, or even parts of a head found, car left around as a possible red herring, other bits of evidence which would point to it being him. Has it been confirmed?

Without a head, without teeth, without finger prints and presumably without DNA who knows?

Remember Lord Lucan?

[manarak]

Do people commit suicide like this? Do Westerners as a rule commit suicide like this? Do middle aged married men with possible financial troubles commit suicide like this? I am not expecting FBI profilers to read this, but maybe someone has some professional insight.

Well, profiling is also about statistics.

It goes like: "80% of people with pain in their left leg limp on the left leg" and "if in addition they have an open wound there, the probability rises to 95% limping"

So there are still the 5% who don't limp in spite of pain and wound.

When investigating, you cannot know if your case is one of the 5% lunatics - profiling doesn't help explaining, it just helps investigating by giving some probable leads, which may then turn out false at any moment.

And then Murphy's law can never be totally ruled out - imagine he planned to use the grenade himself for something else and the clip of the grenade somehow got stuck in something in his rucksack and it went loose just when he put it on without noticing?

There are so much stories of totally unbelievable fuc_kups that really happened, that this possibility should not be discarded.

When I tried to engage him in simple conversation, he would look at me for a half second, then swivel his head back to stare at the purple puppets dancing on the screen for a half minute or so - then look blankly back at me for a second, and so on.

Errm... were you introduced and did you Wai him properly, and waited that he speaks first, apart from your opening sawadee krap?

Edited August 24, 2009 by manarak

[manarak]

Without a head, without teeth, without finger prints and presumably without DNA who knows?

This is a good point, and they should collect DNA from his home and compare with the body.

This case is interesting.

I will try to keep up to date about it.

Edited August 24, 2009 by manarak

[Thai at Heart]

Do people commit suicide like this? Do Westerners as a rule commit suicide like this? Do middle aged married men with possible financial troubles commit suicide like this? I am not expecting FBI profilers to read this, but maybe someone has some professional insight.

Well, profiling is also about statistics.

It goes like: "80% of people with pain in their left leg limp on the left leg" and "if in addition they have an open wound there, the probability rises to 95% limping"

So there are still the 5% who don't limp in spite of pain and wound.

When investigating, you cannot know if your case is one of the 5% lunatics - profiling doesn't help explaining, it just helps investigating by giving some probable leads, which may then turn out false at any moment.

And then Murphy's law can never be totally ruled out - imagine he planned to use the grenade himself for something else and the clip of the grenade somehow got stuck in something in his rucksack and it went loose just when he put it on without noticing?

There are so much stories of totally unbelievable fuc_kups that really happened, that this possibility should not be discarded.

When I tried to engage him in simple conversation, he would look at me for a half second, then swivel his head back to stare at the purple puppets dancing on the screen for a half minute or so - then look blankly back at me for a second, and so on.

Errm... were you introduced and did you Wai him properly, and waited that he speaks first, apart from your opening sawadee krap?

I was simply trying to ascertain if there was any real likelihood that a German man, married with a kid, walks out of his front door on Wednesday and tops himself with an explosive device.

It may be an accident, it may be a suicide, most likely (not in the opinion of the BIB) it is foul play.

Since suicide seems so prevalent among foreigners, some quick minded person should set up an SMS system whereby you announce daily that you don't intend to top yourself.

"I ..............., declare that I don't intend to top myself today, should I be found dead in the next 2 days, please discount suicide as an option."

[LaoPo]

Are there any (military) experts amongst us who know a lot about grenades ?

In another source I read a question from someone who asked:

"Why is there rope attached to the handle of the grenade?"

Photos: Pattayadailynews

Click to enlarge the photo!

I am not a weapons expert, so maybe somebody can answer that question?

I can't tell IF it is rope (that normally belongs there) and IF it is indeed the handle of a/the grenade.

LaoPo

[lomatopo]

That one photo is interesting. It looks more like some sort of electrical wiring connected to the striker lever, and that the wire was cut? Weird. Perhaps some sort of booby trap or part of remote triggering device which might point to murder?

I'd also consider that the deceased might have been blackmailing someone who grew tired of the threat, and who also wanted to persuasively obtain any incriminating evidence.

A anonymous person did tip off the Bangkok Post re: potential catastrophic failure of the runways at SBIA. Perhaps this person had documentation regarding payoffs or shoddy workmanship, and was using these pressure other parties to cough up money to finance his new venture?

Suicide by grenade just seems unusual. I find it hard to believe that it is a staged suicide to cover his tracks? He must know that DNA evidence would be collected and analyzed?

[George4]

They use rope or wire if a launcher is being deployed but it's a differnt type of grenade to what that appears to have been used.

If it had been attached to the pin then it was to detonate it but I would think this grenade was tied round the mans body by himself or some unknown party.

And bfore you ask, would the rope not be blown to bits? the answer is...the rope is still there and he is not.

Edited August 24, 2009 by George4

[TAWP]

Firstly what a gruesome way to go whether a murder or not. My condolences to the family.

To the slightly more expert Sherlock Holmes' out there..

Do people commit suicide like this? Do Westerners as a rule commit suicide like this? Do middle aged married men with possible financial troubles commit suicide like this? I am not expecting FBI profilers to read this, but maybe someone has some professional insight.

He could have jumped off his balcony with a belly full of whiskey inside him or taken a load of pills.

I don't see that driving for 2 hours after bothering to get a hand grenade and then clutching onto his laptop in a completely unknown place is very plausible.

Aren't there cameras on the toll boothes? Not holding out too much hope that they work, but it would at least identify if someone was with him.

Western men favours handguns, hangings and gassing themselves in cars. Western women take pills. The only ones cutting their wrists are the ones screaming for help with no intent to actually go through it.

That is a generalized view on the statistics as heard from someone in the know.

[Maejo Man]

Are there any (military) experts amongst us who know a lot about grenades ?

In another source I read a question from someone who asked:

"Why is there rope attached to the handle of the grenade?"

I am not a weapons expert, so maybe somebody can answer that question?

I can't tell IF it is rope (that normally belongs there) and IF it is indeed the handle of a/the grenade.

LaoPo

The pin is from a very old style grenade, modern grenades have a "bifurcated" pin that is thicker, and the "rope" as you call it looks very much like primer cord. All very strange.

[LaoPo]

Are there any (military) experts amongst us who know a lot about grenades ?

In another source I read a question from someone who asked:

"Why is there rope attached to the handle of the grenade?"

I am not a weapons expert, so maybe somebody can answer that question?

I can't tell IF it is rope (that normally belongs there) and IF it is indeed the handle of a/the grenade.

LaoPo

The pin is from a very old style grenade, modern grenades have a "bifurcated" pin that is thicker, and the "rope" as you call it looks very much like primer cord. All very strange.

I had to look it up; sorry, no expert...

You mean primer cord like detonation cord ? http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B...0/Primacord.pdf

If it WAS detonation cord it's indeed more and more puzzling; why would anyone kill himself and attach detonation cord..... ...to postpone the explosion of the grenade ?

LaoPo

[DisainaM]

Photos: Pattayadailynews

Click to enlarge the photo!

it should work like this,

you put the grenade in the laptop bag, and connect the laptop with the ring (on your photo).

If s.o. is putting the laptop out of his bag, the connector with the ring is opend, and the grenade is exploding.

[Thai at Heart]

Photos: Pattayadailynews

Click to enlarge the photo!

it should work like this,

you put the grenade in the laptop bag, and connect the laptop with the ring (on your photo).

If s.o. is putting the laptop out of his bag, the connector with the ring is opend, and the grenade is exploding.

So he accidentally took his laptop out of his bag inside a rubber plantation?

Looking for a free wifi spot?

We all know this is deserving of a better verdict than "Desperate German explodes himself in rubber plantation with home made device attached to hand grenade".

I would believe it better if he had an exploding IPOD.

There is another thread running where someone is chasing a verdict for a loved one. I hope someone has the passion to follow this terrible story.

[Datsun240Z]

Somebody just wanted to get rid of this guy.

[mrtoad]

Firstly what a gruesome way to go whether a murder or not. My condolences to the family.

To the slightly more expert Sherlock Holmes' out there..

Do people commit suicide like this? Do Westerners as a rule commit suicide like this? Do middle aged married men with possible financial troubles commit suicide like this? I am not expecting FBI profilers to read this, but maybe someone has some professional insight.

He could have jumped off his balcony with a belly full of whiskey inside him or taken a load of pills.

I don't see that driving for 2 hours after bothering to get a hand grenade and then clutching onto his laptop in a completely unknown place is very plausible.

Aren't there cameras on the toll boothes? Not holding out too much hope that they work, but it would at least identify if someone was with him.

Western men favours handguns, hangings and gassing themselves in cars. Western women take pills. The only ones cutting their wrists are the ones screaming for help with no intent to actually go through it.

That is a generalized view on the statistics as heard from someone in the know.

Whilst rather generalized there is truth in what you have written. Further more the more violent suicides, such as immolation are normally favoured by Asian women. The use of explosives for a suicide to me still seems rather dubious. So far the police have churned out their usual mantra of suicide, but there are so many holes in the story that need to be filled.

[manarak]

well, IF the grenade was really the explosive - the grenade could have been a MP3 player...

the handle of the grenade is funny, I couldn't find a similar one, except on a mp3 player in greande form...

m67 with a particular handle comes closest

Edited August 24, 2009 by manarak

[brahmburgers]

Here's a possible theory:

1) A large concrete project was completed and the victim was responsible for final inspection and signing off. Shortcuts took place and the German refused to sign off in the sake of public safety. They tried to force him to sign and, recognizing he had a bomb on him and was unlikely to walk away alive, he refused. Or he simply refused period. I would think a good police force would be questioning the company as to what projects he was working on, etc.

I agree a serious stand-off regarding his concrete-related biz is plausible. I'd mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread. It's plausible on two levels:

A. It could have caused him to become so depressed as to off himself (not likely)

B. A biz dispute could have resulted in a death threat being followed up, in order to try to compel the deceased (or his bosses) to comply, such as sign off on something he didn't want to approve. (a more likely scenario than A).

There may also be a remote possibilty that his wife was involved. If she wanted to kill him, she could have arranged with someone (women can't do such things on their own) to implant a booby trapped explosive device in his laptop bag.

Has it been proved that this man is who we think he is? No head, or even parts of a head found, car left around as a possible red herring, other bits of evidence which would point to it being him. Has it been confirmed?

I had also mentioned this scenario earlier. Though not likely, it's again not impossible that he may have faked his own demise by hatching an elaborate plan to kill another farang in his place. However, the elaborate scenario precludes that option.

All in all there are many big questions that we haven't heard answers to. Judging from the reputation of Thai investigators, we're not likely to get answers, ever. Indeed, it's not likely Thai investigators are asking the right questions nor doing a host of investigative things one would expect them to be doing, such as:

>>> finding hard-to-find clues, and deciphering them

>>> srutinizing his recent biz dealings and emails

>>> looking at emails of his biz contacts

>>> engaging locals in the vicinity with probing interviews

>>> engaging his wife and biz associates in probing interviews with tough questions - that are followed up by action. Example, if someone says they were at a particular location at a specific time, go to that location and ask questions. Interview prime people individually and simultaneously, so they don't have time to coordinate their answers.

I use the word 'probing' for interviews, because I've seen how Thais interview Thais. Because Thais generally think alike, they have this sort of 'group consciousness.' Many things are left unmentioned because the answers are presumed to be already known.

For people in general, the interviewer knows interviewees will readily lie in order to say what they need to say in order to avoid self-incrimination ....and it's unlikely there'll be any probing follow up by Thai-style investigators. Part of the reason is the paramount concern of not having anyone lose face - so it's easier to simply chalk the bizarre incident up to 'suicide,' and then everyone can go back to doing what they were doing before it happened.

Part of the reason I and others on this thread are doing so much speculation is because we're concerned (mainly for the deceased and his family) but also the very remote chance our bleating might spark some effective detective work (some new angles to pursue) by those assigned to the case.

Any new info?

[Maejo Man]

I had to look it up; sorry, no expert...

You mean primer cord like detonation cord ? http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B...0/Primacord.pdf

If it WAS detonation cord it's indeed more and more puzzling; why would anyone kill himself and attach detonation cord..... ...to postpone the explosion of the grenade ?

Yes that's what I meant. Primacord is a brand name, but it is often refered to as detcord or primercord.

Often used in the "feild" for felling trees for one reason or another, but placing numerous loops round the trunk.

The more I look at that photo the stranger it gets. I tried enhancing it, and then something seemed to pop out, but I could be completely wrong. I have superimposed (badly) a 25 MS detonator over what looks like an "unfired" detonator.

The whole thing is more than strange. I have sent the photo to a couple of chums that are still in ordnance, to see what they make of it.

[LaoPo]

I had to look it up; sorry, no expert...

You mean primer cord like detonation cord ? http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B...0/Primacord.pdf

If it WAS detonation cord it's indeed more and more puzzling; why would anyone kill himself and attach detonation cord..... ...to postpone the explosion of the grenade ?

Yes that's what I meant. Primacord is a brand name, but it is often refered to as detcord or primercord.

Often used in the "feild" for felling trees for one reason or another, but placing numerous loops round the trunk.

The more I look at that photo the stranger it gets. I tried enhancing it, and then something seemed to pop out, but I could be completely wrong. I have superimposed (badly) a 25 MS detonator over what looks like an "unfired" detonator.

The whole thing is more than strange. I have sent the photo to a couple of chums that are still in ordnance, to see what they make of it.

That's quite interesting and I'm curious about your further comments.

LaoPo

[manarak]

see everything through their western judeo-christian moralistic goggles

Gulp. In my home country only a kind of people talk like that...

yep, and who would that be?

People like you obviously never had philosophy and sociology classes.

[manarak]

I had to look it up; sorry, no expert...

You mean primer cord like detonation cord ? http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B...0/Primacord.pdf

If it WAS detonation cord it's indeed more and more puzzling; why would anyone kill himself and attach detonation cord..... ...to postpone the explosion of the grenade ?

Yes that's what I meant. Primacord is a brand name, but it is often refered to as detcord or primercord.

Often used in the "feild" for felling trees for one reason or another, but placing numerous loops round the trunk.

The more I look at that photo the stranger it gets. I tried enhancing it, and then something seemed to pop out, but I could be completely wrong. I have superimposed (badly) a 25 MS detonator over what looks like an "unfired" detonator.

The whole thing is more than strange. I have sent the photo to a couple of chums that are still in ordnance, to see what they make of it.

I think your eyes see more than there is to see.

What you said is an unfired detonator just looks like a straight and darker section of the "cord" or what ever that is, same diameter, same looks.

I think we all agree that the story so far doesn't make any sense at all for a suicide.

[cyb]

I had to look it up; sorry, no expert...

You mean primer cord like detonation cord ? http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B...0/Primacord.pdf

If it WAS detonation cord it's indeed more and more puzzling; why would anyone kill himself and attach detonation cord..... ...to postpone the explosion of the grenade ?

Yes that's what I meant. Primacord is a brand name, but it is often refered to as detcord or primercord.

Often used in the "feild" for felling trees for one reason or another, but placing numerous loops round the trunk.

The more I look at that photo the stranger it gets. I tried enhancing it, and then something seemed to pop out, but I could be completely wrong. I have superimposed (badly) a 25 MS detonator over what looks like an "unfired" detonator.

The whole thing is more than strange. I have sent the photo to a couple of chums that are still in ordnance, to see what they make of it.

I think your eyes see more than there is to see.

What you said is an unfired detonator just looks like a straight and darker section of the "cord" or what ever that is, same diameter, same looks.

I think we all agree that the story so far doesn't make any sense at all for a suicide.

You can clearly see the superimposed unfired detonator if you look at both photo together.

I think you missed the point manarak

Edited August 25, 2009 by cyb