Big Trouble In Tourist Thailand

[t.s]

I know the fella in Phuket jail. The 7.5 year stretch Welsh dealer.

After 5 (or 7) years as Mr Farang Police, I think Captain Howard should speak and understand more Thai (considering his position)

love it when he tries to speak thai. his tragic attempts really make you wonder how he is aiding communication in any way at all.

[t.s]

You are calling it as you saw it on an edited TV show produced for entertainment purposes with no knowledge of the background to the case and how we operate. If you are happy with that then I respect your opinions.

Ah, so they cut the part where he was about to attack you, or one of your colleagues, and sneakily edited it to make it look as if you slapped a man from behind who was no immediate threat to anyone. They also cut the earlier scenes where he had been violent meaning you needed to escalate up the conflict resolution model to use force. They then cleverly cut between 2 seperate scenes to make it look like he was bundled in a van by a number of officers while you joked about it. Apologies if I didn't realise that, it just looked to me like someone overreacting and abusing their 'powers'

Who would produce such a show, filming people in trouble, then selectively editing it to make dramatic, controversial footage, with no thought to the truth, or how a persons reputation may be affected....eh? oh

All I can say to you is, if an open hand slap to someones back excites you so much, I would suggest you save your energies for Episode 4 "Do Not Resist!!"

entertainment? i thought it was reality tv.

as for the highlighted bit, enjoy your 15 minutes. you are doing yourself no favours. you chose to participate. thanks for the laugh. love your ability to switch languages.

[Kitsch22]

I know the fella in Phuket jail. The 7.5 year stretch Welsh dealer.

After 5 (or 7) years as Mr Farang Police, I think Captain Howard should speak and understand more Thai (considering his position)

love it when he tries to speak thai. his tragic attempts really make you wonder how he is aiding communication in any way at all.

Howard Miller speaks to drunken or otherwise inebriated farangs in a language which they understand and in a manner which they perceive to be sincere and well-intentioned; in doing so he performs a very valuable function.

He gets a black mark for slapping the Kosovan (who nevertheless richly deserved it). And I cannot understand why he stated that most Thai drivers do not have licences - is there any basis for such an allegation?

He would be more useful if he had a better command of the Thai language, but at least his attempted pronunciation of "Pattaya" is better than that of most of the farangs who live there.

[caf]

So,you get a few bad apples......just like any other organization. The T.P.V has only been around a few years.....give them a break!!

I am sure that any constructive criticism about operational procedures and recruitment, would be listened too.

So for those who genuinely care.get in contact with Howard or any other of the volunteers...........Then make your point!!!

More than a few bad apples I fear. Thai policing is hardly a "hub of good policing"

And your comparison with other organisations - do you mean police volunteers in other countries? Again, I would not agree. Other forces are much more professional most of the time and their vetting procedures more thorough.

The Tpv was set up in 1974 hardly a few years (as you try to spin)

And as for being listened to. Is it a Thai trait to listen to another person's opinion particularly a foreigner. Face is too important for that

The volunteering concept started in 1974 according to Pol Lt Col Dr Kasemsorn. Quoted in an official lecture he gave. I accept him as a better source.

In the Uk at least there are volunteers as well as special constables

You havent addressed the other points of my post of course.

[caf]

A note is that unless I am mistaken, StateSix is a former police constable.

From the US of A right?

That explains exactly what? The Howard-haters will always find some lame justification for their vitriol. Usually they are from the camp with a general disrespect for the law and authority. Sometimes it comes from some with vague claims to being 'involved' in real law enforcement.

The show is quite entertaining, moreso when one actually lives in the middle of the sh!t they are sensationalising. A bit like reading a Stuart Macbride novel and being born in Aberdeen.

To reply properly I would need you to translate what you are saying into English. But I am no Howard hater with vitriol, no claims to being involved in real law enforcement, not from the camp disrespecting law and order. My criticism, which many others have supported, is that his actions were unprofessional.`

Maybe you have lost the plot.

[caf]

I've been meaning to contribute again to this thread. My comments are rather OT from the OP, but perhaps better to post in this thread than start a new one.

I'm basing my comments upon 2 years of working as a volunteer with the Thai Tourist Police in Phuket, 1 year as a liaison translator at Lumpini police station, and more recent volunteer work with the FPV group in Pattaya, (not the same as the group which patrol in Walking Street).

I guess many people who read this thread do not realise that there are several different groups who assist the Thai police in one way or another.

The national group are the Tourist Police Volunteers, of which there are both Thai and foreign volunteers. Although this group is part of the Royal Thai Police, the actual implementation of procedures, clothing and regulations is made at a local level. That is why the teams differ in what they actually do, according to whether you are in Pattaya, Phuket, Samui, Chiang Mai etc. (That, IMHO is a mistake - there should be a national and common policy that is implemented right across the country, with no 'local interpretation' of these rules).

There are also a number of local groups, such as the Immigration Volunteer group in Phuket, the Foreign Police Volunteers (FPV) in Pattaya, and the Bangkok Liaison Translator Group in er.... Bangkok!

My own view is that there is definitely a need for those with Thai language skills to assist the Thai Police in their dealings with non-Thais. Those language skills would also include translating into other European and Asian languages, since not all tourists can understand English.

The provision of advice about the complex visa regulations is also a useful service.

My view is that any locally organised 'volunteer' group should only operate within the confines of the police station or immigration office or tourist information office, and if they are required to leave their office to assist a tourist, then this should be done only with a Thai police or immigration officer.

The Bangkok Liaison Translator Group fulfill this criteria, and I enjoy assisting them with their work.

The FPV team in Pattaya also meet this criteria - they are based at the Soi 9 police station and do not usually leave that office, certainly not without a Thai officer.

The Immigration Volunteer group in Phuket work from the immigration office in Phuket Town, and provide a very good information service. But they also patrol in Patong, and I cannot agree that this is a necessary part of their work.

The only group who should be operating away from a police station are the Tourist Police Volunteers (TPVs), and their responsibilities and limits of authority should be very clearly defined. I guess many TPVs probably do not know their limits of authority, primarily because their Thai supervising officers have failed to explain this, and to emphasize the importance of knowing these limits.

As for understanding Thai, this should be a fundamental requirement for any person who wishes to assist the Thai police. I am not talking about speaking fluent Thai (I can't!). But a volunteer should be able to speak basic Thai, and know the words and phrases that will be used often.

There should be a national program within the TPV to teach English to Thai volunteers, and to teach Thai to foreign volunteers. I also feel that there should be a single foreign volunteer supervisor who is responsibile for managing (together with his Thai counterpart supervisor), all foreign TPVs in Thailand, and ensuring that rules are implemented across the board without regional differences, and ensuring that volunteer standards are adhered to at all times.

I feel that the foreign TPVs are best managed as a group within the Thai Tourist Police, but that their role be titled as 'Tourist Assistance Volunteer', for that is the job that they should be doing

Simon

Good post simon, A professional view at last.

[KhunAussie52]

"The volunteering concept started in 1974 according to Pol Lt Col Dr Kasemsorn. Quoted in an official lecture he gave. I accept him as a better source."

So the tourist police volunteers were set up in the 1970's......well maybe you could check this out!!!!

http://www.touristpolice-udon.com/Volunteers.html

Edited September 28, 2009 by KhunAussie52

[Mark Wolfe]

From the online application form for the Thai Royal Tourist Police: ( application online)

4. Volunteers understand that being a volunteer is to assist the work of a police officer and not act on behalf of a police officer

5. Volunteers should not be involved in activities such as arrests, interrogations, investigations or inspections

Others can tweeze the particulars out of what has been shown on the Bravo series, but it seems crystal clear to me that what the volunteers are doing in Walking Street in Pattaya is beyond their purview. In fact, the actions of those on Walking Street are blatantly against the Thai Royal Tourist Police rules.

As far as the date of the inception of the program, KhunAussie52 is looking at a local site. The actual program, according to the official main site says:

In 1976, the private sector with Tourism Authority of Thailand, or Tourism Promotion Agency at that time, asked the Police Department for help in providing extra protection and security for the tourists. As a response to this special request the Police Department established a center to help facilitating and providing security for the tourists under the Crime Suppression Division with 60 personnel to receive any petitions or complaints, patrolling and providing security around crowded and tourist areas within Bangkok Metropolis.... At the same time, the Police Department submitted a proposal to establish a Tourist Police Division as a permanent agency in being responsible for facilitating and providing security. The cabinet members gave its approval in principle on 24 November 1976 but the government could not provide any financial support. In 1990 Thai government announced it to be the year of tourism and ordered the Police Department and the Ministry of Interior to be responsible in facilitating and providing security to the tourists and to be carried out expeditiously and continuously. Therefore, the Police Department and Tourism Authority of Thailand together helped improving the center to become Tourist Assistance Center. This center provided services in receiving complaints on crimes and being taken advantages of from the tourists and expanded its responsibility to other regions that are tourist spots and favored among foreign tourists such as Chiagmai, Pattaya, Phuket and Hatyai.

-- From main site, History section

I'd like one of the Pattaya volunteers to look at numbers 4 and 5 above and reconcile their activities with them. It would be hard to say that each location has its own rules when the central application so clearly states what is acceptable.

[thaibeachlovers]

Think its jealousy at the end of the day. Any rate before you whinge why don't you setup an appt with Howard and be an observer for the night. Of Course none of these anonymous muppets will do so for fear of being wrong.

I've spent many a night "observing" on WS; don't need to make any appointments!

As I stated before, I have no problem with TPVs that stick to assisting tourists in trouble. Problem I have with the Pattaya ones, is that they seem to think they have some sort of "powers" to do policing.

As farang "volunteers", they shouldn't be slapping anyone around, shouldn't be investigating to see if yaba is being sold from vendor carts. IMO they shouldn't be getting involved in any confrontational situation at all. The female TPVs that were on the show seemed to be doing all that they should be doing, which was helping some distressed tourist.

Perhaps that's not as exciting as being a "cop", no adrenaline rush, but that's all a TPV is supposed to do. Of course, if someone can show me written authority for a farang TPV to be laying hands on people and waving a truncheon around, I'll back off.

Personally, whenever they pass by in their black uniforms, I regard them with as being tarred with the same brush as the corrupt ones. If they want more respect, IMO, lose the uniforms.

[TAWP]

A note is that unless I am mistaken, StateSix is a former police constable.

From the US of A right?

No, he is not.

Due to PERSEC I refrain from saying anymore than he himself voluntary give to this forum. His country of origin has very little to do with the subject at hand.

And he is actually a very decent guy.

[thaibeachlovers]

Isn't it funny how some people never seem to outgrow that 'police are scum' mentality. I'm sure we all know that guy/girl who always got into trouble with the police, but it was never their fault. With the average age of thai visa members (103 +-) you'd think the troublemakers had grown up but aparantly not.

I have never met these tourist cops, but anyone who's willing to deal with british lager louts, hooligans, german fetishists and thai ladyboys on a daily basis deserves some respect!

The point that has been made many times, is that the TPVs ( assuming they are to whom you are referring ) have no authority to "deal" with anyone. They are purely a "liason" group to assist the police, not to do their job.

As for your first observation about the "police being scum" mentality, I've never been in trouble with them, but I wouldn't trust them an inch. Could be something to do with so many of them being pretty bad people, and not actually helping people in trouble. Without getting too far into it, in recent times in the UK they have shot an innocent man and lied to try and cover it up, raped several women, and in the latest episode of the police "soap story" refused to help a family being terrorised by feral youths so that the mother killed her daughter and herself. And why is it that when they arrest a lone middle aged man they turn up in a great gang, and are never to be seen till AFTER the crimes take place, never patrolling to prevent crimes happening?

[KhunAussie52]

The main topic of conversation,has been about the Tourist police volunteers.......not the regular Thai tourist police.

So ,the volunteers was set up by Steve Graham in Udon Thani in 2005.he used his own money to establish the first group.

[cyb]

A note is that unless I am mistaken, StateSix is a former police constable.

From the US of A right?

No, he is not.

Due to PERSEC I refrain from saying anymore than he himself voluntary give to this forum. His country of origin has very little to do with the subject at hand.

And he is actually a very decent guy.

Tawp.

I was not having a dig at him i was only asking.

If he is not from the usa then he is not the guy i was thinking of ok?

[hm1973]

The main topic of conversation,has been about the Tourist police volunteers.......not the regular Thai tourist police.

So ,the volunteers was set up by Steve Graham in Udon Thani in 2005.he used his own money to establish the first group.

The Udon Thani Volunteers were set up in 2005 but here in Pattaya, the FTPA were set up in 2002, however before that foreigners were assisting the Pattaya Tourist Police since 1995, but they were not actively patrolling.

Edited September 28, 2009 by hm1973

[sjaak327]

The main topic of conversation,has been about the Tourist police volunteers.......not the regular Thai tourist police.

So ,the volunteers was set up by Steve Graham in Udon Thani in 2005.he used his own money to establish the first group.

Not saying I doubt what you are saying, but I also read somewhere that the Pattaya bloke (Howard Miller) is with the Pattaya pretend coppers for 5 to 7 years, which obviously either means that the group in Udon wasn't the first one, or Howard has no sense of time.

I wonder why there even is a group in Udon Thani, surely the amount of tourists going over there is tiny. Most of them probably go there to go to the Friendship bridge anyway.

Or is this group for the many expats that live around Udon ?

[cyb]

The main topic of conversation,has been about the Tourist police volunteers.......not the regular Thai tourist police.

So ,the volunteers was set up by Steve Graham in Udon Thani in 2005.he used his own money to establish the first group.

The Udon Thani Volunteers were set up in 2005 but here in Pattaya, the FTPA were set up in 2002, however before that foreigners were assisting the Pattaya Tourist Police since 1995, but they were not actively patrolling.

Just to add a little the Thai tourist police were setup in 1982 to coordinate with TAT in providing safety for tourist. Although it was talked about as far back as 1976 I'm sure someone is going to ask that question.

Edited September 28, 2009 by cyb

[JetsetBkk]

Is Howard 50 years old or older? He is on a retirement visa?

Some of them are clearly not that old.

Also, on the latest episode, the narrator says that Howard is a former DJ. Does that mean that anyone can be a volunteer? I was not aware that DJing was good training for police work.

And what do you think policemen in the UK or US did before they became policemen?

[simon43]

I was not aware that DJing was good training for police work.

Before I was a police volunteer I was a rocket scientist

And long before that I was also a DJ, on one of the offshire pirate radio stations in the North Sea in the 1970s.

I wonder what previous careers other volunteers will admit to.....

Simon

[lordsux]

I was not aware that DJing was good training for police work.

Before I was a police volunteer I was a rocket scientist

And long before that I was also a DJ, on one of the offshire pirate radio stations in the North Sea in the 1970s.

I wonder what previous careers other volunteers will admit to.....

Simon

Radio Caroline?

[simon43]

Radio Delmare

[KhunAussie52]

The main topic of conversation,has been about the Tourist police volunteers.......not the regular Thai tourist police.

So ,the volunteers was set up by Steve Graham in Udon Thani in 2005.he used his own money to establish the first group.

Not saying I doubt what you are saying, but I also read somewhere that the Pattaya bloke (Howard Miller) is with the Pattaya pretend coppers for 5 to 7 years, which obviously either means that the group in Udon wasn't the first one, or Howard has no sense of time.

I wonder why there even is a group in Udon Thani, surely the amount of tourists going over there is tiny. Most of them probably go there to go to the Friendship bridge anyway.

Or is this group for the many expats that live around Udon ?

The last estimate of farangs living in Udon Thani was around 10000......I am not sure whether this was the first group of TPV!.....As someone has already stated previously, that a group, was setup in Pattaya earlier than Udon.......!!!

Many Farang are moving up this way.Probably more so,in the last year.

[Deksan]

I watched the first 3 parts of this series. While I m glad there is volunteer ppl who spend time to help ppl, I was a bit surprised that they are able to search ppl, handcuf ppl and arrest ppl if needed. I think their should be one volunteer for 3-4 thai policemen. And the thai policemen should be the one proceeding with the arrestation / search if needed. From what I see in the video it doesnt seem to be the case. Maybe I have misunderstood the video but it's very surprising to me that volunteer can do that. Though I think the uniform is needed provided they are with thai policemen because it would definitively improve their security.

What you think about it ?

[britmaveric]

^non of the volunteers in the videos made arrests or searches. This was done by their thai counterparts. They were observing. (anyone has the power to detain - ie citizen's arrest)

[Deksan]

^ Ah ok my bad then It s sometimes hard to differenciate them from their thai counterpart because their uniform color is really similar.

[t.s]

Isn't it funny how some people never seem to outgrow that 'police are scum' mentality. I'm sure we all know that guy/girl who always got into trouble with the police, but it was never their fault. With the average age of thai visa members (103 +-) you'd think the troublemakers had grown up but aparantly not.

I have never met these tourist cops, but anyone who's willing to deal with british lager louts, hooligans, german fetishists and thai ladyboys on a daily basis deserves some respect!

i would say plenty of thais deal with the same crap on a daily basis without the luxury of volunteering and receive far less respect.

[t.s]

^non of the volunteers in the videos made arrests or searches. This was done by their thai counterparts. They were observing. (anyone has the power to detain - ie citizen's arrest)

if not via search or inspection, how did howie manage to come up with the yaa baa from the noodle seller?

[cyb]

^non of the volunteers in the videos made arrests or searches. This was done by their thai counterparts. They were observing. (anyone has the power to detain - ie citizen's arrest)

if not via search or inspection, how did howie manage to come up with the yaa baa from the noodle seller?

If you watch the video you will see that no search was undertaken. It was pointed out to howard that there was something on the floor.

If a search had being undertaken it would have being done by the police with howard not the tpv.

[Penkoprod]

^non of the volunteers in the videos made arrests or searches. This was done by their thai counterparts. They were observing. (anyone has the power to detain - ie citizen's arrest)

if not via search or inspection, how did howie manage to come up with the yaa baa from the noodle seller?

OR walk round with handcuffs on his (their) belt(s)

Penkoprod

[britmaveric]

^citizen's arrest to detain!

[Deksan]

Wikipedia says :

"A person who makes a citizen's arrest could risk exposing him or herself to possible lawsuits or criminal charges (such as charges of impersonating police, false imprisonment, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest) if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated."

So let's say the Thai police foreigner detain a person and it turns out that person has done nothing wrong. What happens then ? Worse the person is detained with handcuff and has a heart attack and has done nothing wrong ? What if the person dies ? In my opinion the detention/hand cuff are borderline of the police role and shouldnt be done by them.

What i fail to understand in the end is that they are sometimes alone without a thai policeman and ends up doing the thai police job until the thai police comes ? That s the only reason I see why they would have to handcuff anyone :/