"capitalism Is E V I L," .....says New Michael Moore Film

[flying]

Come on Flying...you can't (as well as others) steal the thread and start a whole new topic WITHIN a topic about 9/11 and Afghanistan. Please!

This one is about Moore's film: Capitalism; A Love Story and not about wars.

LaoPo

Yes Agreed & sorry about that.

Originally I was on topic but was replying to Sokal which he has now taken into a whole other direction

(sokal @ 2009-09-08 14:23:53) The only thing standing between the world and chaos is the US military.

Kor Tort

Back on topic.....Michael Moore is just the bizaro counter point to Rush Limbau

Neither provides a sliver of credibility towards their cause. But both can be entertaining at times.

[Heng]

The ol' "I've made my bones, and think socialism for everyone else would be ideal for the world" hypocrisy.

Yes, to frame something for your-self in reality and think something opposite is ideal appears as hypocrisy, but not necessarily so. Take the Golden Rule formulated as an ethical reality that I have a right to just freedom ("make my bones"), and a social responsibility to work towards an idea of similar justice for others ("socialism" as ideal). Is there hypocrisy in this reality of self-interest becoming an ideality to work towards socially for others-interests?

It's hypocrisy in most cases, but not all. If you give it all away or live life like it was at square one, and at the same time practice socialism or whatever it is you're preaching, then you're not a hypocrit. If you defend your bones like a rabid dog though (as IMO most would), I'd say that you value your bones more than your ideology.

Yes, defending one’s self without compromise is a case of absolutely valuing your “bones”. But, there is no connection to ideology since no ideology is involved. It’s an absolute value; against absolutely nothing of value: so it’s a null hypothesis, logically impossible, to value your bones more than your ideology as stated.

No ideology involved? Not unless you think you can just remove it from your system and keep it on a backup hard disk without running it. If we're talking about simply discussing, making movies about ideology for pure entertainment and nothing else, without believing our standing behind our content, then his film is like every other film.

[TerraPosse]

That is the point. He should have done a film on greedy A-hole bankers rather then a hit piece on capitalism.

Have you seen the film ?

LaoPo

I seen the title. He could have done a good service by kicking the bankers around but now every dopey person that goes to see it will think capitalism is bad and that communism is good.

And the excessive greed displayed by the bankers is encouraged and mandatory by the underlying economic system they operate in...Capitalism.  So naturally a good documentary maker would go after what lies at the heart of such 'evil' and not just the few scapegoats thrown to the blood-baying masses.

And of course Communism will be better (if not perfectly good) once the people are ready for it.  And before you ask me to move to the DPRK if I like it so much, then, looking at the criteria layed out in the Communist Manifesto, I wouldn't consider North Korea a Communist country.

[sokal]

That is the point. He should have done a film on greedy A-hole bankers rather then a hit piece on capitalism.

Have you seen the film ?

LaoPo

I seen the title. He could have done a good service by kicking the bankers around but now every dopey person that goes to see it will think capitalism is bad and that communism is good.

And the excessive greed displayed by the bankers is encouraged and mandatory by the underlying economic system they operate in...Capitalism. So naturally a good documentary maker would go after what lies at the heart of such 'evil' and not just the few scapegoats thrown to the blood-baying masses.

And of course Communism will be better (if not perfectly good) once the people are ready for it. And before you ask me to move to the DPRK if I like it so much, then, looking at the criteria layed out in the Communist Manifesto, I wouldn't consider North Korea a Communist country.

Capitalism is a zero sum game. For every winner there is a loser unless you get government involved. Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack and the Federal reserve come to mind.

How many bonuses would Goldman Sachs have paid out if they naturally went bankrupt ? Citi bank ? Bank of America ? JP Morgan ?

So in summary, Micheal Moore is making a film about the evils of capitalism when the only avenue for justice in the system is capitalism and only reason he has a topic for his film is because of socialism and communism.

[Nilrem]

Yes, I'm a radical, but not so pure and quite complex. While you imply "radical" negatively; it has a positive connation of going to the root of a problem.

Like a previous post on this thread claiming my post was "absolute nonsense", he posed an emotional reaction as critical thinking. Your "only thing" likewise is a universal that should not be so easily flung out in a critique, since one positive point collapses the argument. And, it usually exposes someone as an emotional reactionary.

Nonetheless, the opposite appears true: US military following orders may be the main thing standing between the world and chaos: i.e. perpetuating perpetual war; nuclear first strike option, etc. Ironically, the following orders argument was used against the Nazis in the Neuremburg trials to convict them of crimes against humanity.

Let me guess, you hate cops too right ?

On the contrary: I'd hate myself, if I hated policemen. Similarly, I appreciate the military a lot when willing to sacrifice themselves in defence of others. As well, I admire their teamwork. There's a categorical difference between hating behaviour within a profession that is offensive, which I do; and hating that profession, which I definitely don't. One cannot justify crimes against humanity with the misbehaviour of the police or the military with the excuse that one is following orders.

[Nilrem]

That is the point. He should have done a film on greedy A-hole bankers rather then a hit piece on capitalism.

Have you seen the film ?

LaoPo

I seen the title. He could have done a good service by kicking the bankers around but now every dopey person that goes to see it will think capitalism is bad and that communism is good.

And the excessive greed displayed by the bankers is encouraged and mandatory by the underlying economic system they operate in...Capitalism. So naturally a good documentary maker would go after what lies at the heart of such 'evil' and not just the few scapegoats thrown to the blood-baying masses.

And of course Communism will be better (if not perfectly good) once the people are ready for it. And before you ask me to move to the DPRK if I like it so much, then, looking at the criteria layed out in the Communist Manifesto, I wouldn't consider North Korea a Communist country.

Capitalism is a zero sum game. For every winner there is a loser unless you get government involved. Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack and the Federal reserve come to mind.

How many bonuses would Goldman Sachs have paid out if they naturally went bankrupt ? Citi bank ? Bank of America ? JP Morgan ?

So in summary, Micheal Moore is making a film about the evils of capitalism when the only avenue for justice in the system is capitalism and only reason he has a topic for his film is because of socialism and communism.

Capitialism need NOT be a zero sum game. If in the financial market i borrow money from a capitalist to set up a profitable business, it is win-win. If with that business in the market place i provide product to a satisfied customer likewise is win-win.

Michael Moore made a film about the evils of capitalism NOT when the only avenue for justice in the system is capitalism, but when there is lack of justice in the system of capitalism. It seems a form of Gresham's Law is at work: where bad capitalism drives out good capitalism, corrupt markets drive out healthy markets, etc.

The only reason he has a topic for his film is NOT just because of socialism and communism. Another reason is with the problem of an economic system which doesn't satisfy the needs of people and, to be sure, is destroying their ability to provide for their needs and wants with their labour.

[Nilrem]

Historically the US has been an non interventionist nation but Pearl Harbor changed that forever. People seem to forget that Saddam Hussain was a criminal and it was not a good idea to let his sons be in charge of OPEC for the next 70 years.

The US has been an interventionist state since its inception. The British Proclamation of 1863 that prohibited intervention into Indian Territory west of Appalachians was ignored by the US with independence and upheld in Canada. Subsequently, America militarized the West; Canada policed it.

As I recall, the American tradition of demonizing others as evil started with this military intervention. The savages had no souls so it was easy to kill them as nonhuman; not easy to kill fellow human beings. Canadians are not innocent, but is there a similar tradition there of demonizing others then warring on them? And, by the way, it is not only rightwing to use negative absolute emotion in religious terms to demonize others; Moore is so, saying: Capitalism is evil. Maybe he's trying to start a revolutionary war!

And, is religiously demonizing others primarily Christian and Moslem? Buddhists probably do – but is it prevalent. In other words, loathing between Yellow Shirts and Red Shirts certainly exists. Do Thai people use religious terms to express the revulsion?

[sokal]

Capitialism need NOT be a zero sum game. If in the financial market i borrow money from a capitalist to set up a profitable business, it is win-win. If with that business in the market place i provide product to a satisfied customer likewise is win-win.

Michael Moore made a film about the evils of capitalism NOT when the only avenue for justice in the system is capitalism, but when there is lack of justice in the system of capitalism. It seems a form of Gresham's Law is at work: where bad capitalism drives out good capitalism, corrupt markets drive out healthy markets, etc.

The only reason he has a topic for his film is NOT just because of socialism and communism. Another reason is with the problem of an economic system which doesn't satisfy the needs of people and, to be sure, is destroying their ability to provide for their needs and wants with their labour.

There is no lack of justice in the capitalist system. If you fail you go bankrupt. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citi group, and Bank of America all failed. Did they go bankrupt ? No they didn't because the socialist government bailed them out. Bailouts are not a capitalist policy or a capitalist tenet.

[gregb]

And the excessive greed displayed by the bankers is encouraged and mandatory by the underlying economic system they operate in...Capitalism. So naturally a good documentary maker would go after what lies at the heart of such 'evil' and not just the few scapegoats thrown to the blood-baying masses.

And of course Communism will be better (if not perfectly good) once the people are ready for it.

Why do people automatically think that if you believe Capitalism/Corporatism is bad, you automatically think that Socialism/Communism is good? There are more than just 2 options for economic theories you know. You can completely reject capitalism and reject socialism all at the same time.

Ever heard of Distributism? Google it. Worked for hundreds of years during the Middle Ages, longer than either of the current economic disasters. Only the Cold War forced countries into the US camp or the Soviet camp and gave way to this ignorance that you have to choose one or the other.

Capitalism is evil and Socialism is evil. Both have shown themselves to be failed constructs. Don't fall into the trap that inadequate modern education has set for you. Look at the limitations of both, and then come up with your own alternative. There are an infinite number of possibilities to fit an infinite number of circumstances. Really, I just can't imagine what large, mega corporations have done for anyone that would make a person believe these monstronsities are good things. You can reject them without embracing socialism, which itself is a non starter. Private ownership will always be more efficient than something manipulated by the state.

Capitalism does in fact lie at the heart of the current economic crisis, and greed is not good. It's time we all started thinking for ourselves, and stopped letting the corporations and central banks of the world use us as pawns for their own purposes. I'm glad people are making documentaries like this, but I fail to see how it will make a difference until the populace itself becomes educated enough to understand the meaning and do a little critical thinking.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

How many millions did he put into his bank account with a few of his past propaganda films?

And not to mention how ironic that someone so overweight is criticizing the greed and overindulgence of others….

Anyway… will his new film be shown FREE?___

Ask your Uncle Jacko.

[Jingthing]

He was right about health care with SICKO so I look forward to seeing his new film. I don't think Moore is saying capitalism itself is evil, rather completely unregulated capitalism.

[Chewbacka]

Having just read this thread from start to finish the only conclusion that can be drawn is that capitalism in indeed evil!

On a side note - I hope Sokal is enjoying himself in Thailand. Sokal is just the kind of chap we need to see more of in the expat bars

[flying]

Michael Moore Kills Capitalism with Kool-Aid

Moore truly believes that warehouses of federal workers, in Washington, D.C., remotely running our lives is the optimal plan. He really doesn't care why the poor are poor or the rich are rich; he just wants it fixed.

Full Article

http://mises.org/story/3751

[Groongthep]

American school districts are for the most part run independently. There is no "national curriculum". If the district is conservative the teaching in the schools tends to be conservative also. If the district is progressive the teaching tends to encourage much more critical thought. There are plenty of good schools out there which encourage students to think for themselves. If there weren't do you think that you would be seeing so much heated debate between Americans on such a wide range of issues on this forum? We haven't seen too much of any debate at all from Continental Europeans on divergent views of issues in their countries. That's why I suspect that their schools are cranking out students that simply agree with every view their teachers espouse. Either that or they are far too self-conscious of what others would think if they dared criticize one of their own countrymen. Bashing the big bad Americans is so much easier, fashionable and fun.

Perhaps because we Europeans realise that this is a Thai-based forum and the issues that we have in our own countries aren't relevant here? Perhaps because we think it's bad manners to force our domestic issues down other people's throats?

wholeheartedly seconded!

1.) endure took my comments completely out of context. They were in response to Nilrem's post implying that he is knowledgeable about the American system of education, but his comments make it clear that he knows nothing about American schools. I explained that the majority of American schools reflect the views of their local school boards and do not indoctrinate a national policy since no national curriculum exists nor are the schools moving toward any sort of plutocracy as he contended. He responded to my protests with a completely irrelevant post about test scores. By adulthood Americans are competitive with the rest of the world in just about every field of study.

2.) I agree that many Americans often digress from Thailand related topics on this forum to promote their own views on American domestic issues. It is unfortunate and often frustrating to me as well, but it is obvious that there are plenty of Europeans throwing in their opinions on these issues every chance they get too. To imply that the Americans are the only ill mannered ones while others fan the fires with intentionally inflammatory comments is hypocritical.

3.) To get back on the subject of Michael Moore, who cares? He is the left's equivalent of Rush Limbaugh or Murdoch's bunch of Fox "News" pundits whose sole intent is to be controversial so as to garner more publicity and hence more money. None of them are journalists and all of them are worthless as far as I'm concerned.

[pampal]

Michael Moore makes entertaining movies, I take it all with a grain of salt.

[rethaired]

And what is democratic about anything that would replace it?  Nothing.  Michael Moore is to the left what Rush is to the right.  An equally self promoting moron of about the same weight and dimensions.  We can only hope they cancel each other out.  Blob meets blob.

Perhaps Michael will visit North Korea and fail to return from his new found utopia.  Please.

M. Moore is an extremist, but for a very good reason: to every extreme action an extreme reaction is called for. He recognized --and rightly so-- that a soft, pleasant message is not going to get you very far nowadays. Some people need extreme views to make them aware of the situation, to wake them up from their boring daily routines. The path to deregulation that some trace back to Nixon and others to Reagan was the wrong path to take because unchecked and unbridled capitalism does not work. A classroom with no teacher is not going to work. Some of us need structure because they can create laws that allow them to do what they want. This type of free market capitalism, this laissez-faire has led to creating plutocracies where groups of man and women control much of the earth resources, services, and goods. It has created globalization where we transport goods from where there is the cheapest labour and goods to the richest countries (it used to be called colonialism, but it is easy to use euphemisms nowadays). The mass of people fed sport's and people's news on TV or on their Iphones to prevent them from knowing about what really matters is another factor capitalism has failed. Give them games, said the Romans, and we will rule over them. The Far West mentality works only for the rich and the powerful and you better be very rich and very powerful. The rest of us better keep a low profile. Now that some of the rich and the wealthy got taken for a ride by Maddoff and co., they are re-appraising their views. The system is crooked because it is now run by mostly crooks. It needs to be reformed. Too bad that we have many human beings so selfish that they can deny others the right to water, food, and shelter just because they want the biggest and the most expensive goods to feed their egos (and the women that love them), things they can get by buying shares of companies that will just do that. Of course, since they are not the ones actually doing it, it is not a crime and everyone goes back to their big home and condo with a happy face. BTW, let's not confuse real communism with despots (right and left) like the ones that roamed the USSR (Stalin,...) and Chile (Pinochet,...). BTW, you might have the right to say just about what you want in Western democracies, but since big corporations control just about anything, only a few will. How many times have you seen Chomsky being interviewed and hwo many times have you seen Cheney and Rumsfeld and Kissinger freely expressing their lies. It is about time the mass of people have a guy like Moore to state what so many could not say out loud. He might be a bit of an extremist, but was he left with any choice? So Capitalism is not evil per se. Unbridled capitalism is. "Unbridled capitalism is evil" is too big a title for people to read or editors to print, assuming they understand the word in the first place, of course.

[lannarebirth]

Capitalism is so passe'. Welcome to the era of public / private Financialism.

Edited December 15, 2009 by lannarebirth

[Ulysses G.]

Michael Moore makes entertaining movies, I take it all with a grain of salt.

Most Americans understand that Michael Moore is a silly clown who dabbles in serious issues. He is entertaining and he has a little something to teach if you do not take him too seriously.

Unfortunately, some of our European cousins have decided that he is some kind of a philosopher – which he loves - and he has begun to turn into a bit of a bore. I have noticed that his book sales have plummeted since the last election.

Let’s hope that he forgets about outlandish issues like getting rid of capitalism and goes back to political comedy and the less pretentious stuff that he is so good at.

[TAWP]

He was right about health care with SICKO so I look forward to seeing his new film. I don't think Moore is saying capitalism itself is evil, rather completely unregulated capitalism.

No, he doesn't. Half the problem is that he doesn't even know what he is against. What he is actually rallying against in the movie is CORPORATISM. The same thing we Libertarians have very clearly been pointing and rallying against for a very long time. Ofcourse Moore doesn't realize that and so proclaims that Capitalism should need to be changed, when it isn't truly there in the first place.

[Jingthing]

He was right about health care with SICKO so I look forward to seeing his new film. I don't think Moore is saying capitalism itself is evil, rather completely unregulated capitalism.

No, he doesn't. Half the problem is that he doesn't even know what he is against. What he is actually rallying against in the movie is CORPORATISM. The same thing we Libertarians have very clearly been pointing and rallying against for a very long time. Ofcourse Moore doesn't realize that and so proclaims that Capitalism should need to be changed, when it isn't truly there in the first place.

Why not just say you are a libertarian and Moore is not? That is all I got out of your post.

[TAWP]

Why not just say you are a libertarian and Moore is not? That is all I got out of your post.

*sigh*

The fact remains that in his complaints in the movie he is pointing out the flaws of corporatism that is prohibiting true capitalism from breeding and the people's well-being to grow.

That isn't a flaw with capitalism, it is the flaw of politicians and big money being in bed with each-other, i.e. a too big and powerful government, enforced regulations and subsidies etc.

The problem is of course that neither he nor some other extreme leftist understands this. They think more of the same is better or that by moving the companies inside the government completely that the problem would disappear instead of escalate further, that logic and history dictates it will.

[lannarebirth]

Network

Howard Beale: I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's work, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad.

Howard Beale: [shouting] You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell,

[shouting]

Howard Beale: 'I'M AS MAD AS hel_l, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hel_l and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hel_l, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it:

Howard Beale: [screaming at the top of his lungs] "I'M AS MAD AS hel_l, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

Arthur Jensen: [bellowing] You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it! Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case! The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance! You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU...WILL...ATONE!

Arthur Jensen: [calmly] Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those *are* the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that . . . perfect world . . . in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

Howard Beale: Why me?

Arthur Jensen: Because you're on television, dummy. Sixty million people watch you every night of the week, Monday through Friday.

Howard Beale: I have seen the face of God.

Arthur Jensen: You just might be right, Mr. Beale.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074958/quotes