Double Charging List

[stevenl]

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

Edited November 7, 2009 by stevenl

[markg]

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

i think the word you may be looking for is 'discrimination'. Some people are discriminated against because of either their skin colour, or where they come from, or indeed where the store owner thinks they come from, and based upon those decisions, a conclusion is reached by the store owner as to the buyer's wealth and ability to pay.

Most of us on here believe that this is wrong.

India has the most millionaires of any country. Should Indians be charged more for products then? Maybe we should let the TAT know.............they can double the price of hotel rooms for Indians.

I mean................they left their jobs, jumped on a plane, and are clearly flush with cash...........it's only fair.

And apparently, according to some on here, that would NOT constitute either racism or discrimination in any way!

There is only one fair way to deal with this and that is to set ONE price. Period.

[stevenl]

Yes, discrimination would be a better word. And of course there is discrimination here, just as everywhere else in the world. In most western countries elderly and younger people pay less for lots of activities, government and private, and that is discrimination, but PC correct discrimination. There are food stamps for the poor, so they even get their food for free, but that is also PC discrimination. And there are many, many examples of things like that.

Nowhere in the world does everybody pay the same price for all products, simply non-existent. But we accept that, because we have grown up with that, been indoctrinated by that.

Indians BTW will in quite a few places not be welcome or be charged a higher price, so that is a bad example for your case.

I used to work for an insurance company, where discrimination is the way to go: people in certain parts of the land pay less for their car or household insurance because the risk is less, younger people pay more for car insurance because they are a higher risk, older people pay more for health insurance because they are a higher risk, women pay less for life insurance then men because they are a lower risk, etc.

[thefalang]

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

Just so that I understand you correctly, a "white Thai" is (in most cases) a "luk-khrueng" or half-thai, half-"other". When these "white thais" approach the cashier at the local market (talad nat, etc) and offer their Thai I.D. card, the cashier automatically gives them the "Thai price". If they don't present their I.D. cards, they typically pay Falang prices. I have to admit that this scenario is a bit far-fetched and/or not too common.

Isn't it the perception of the cashier/store owner and/or motivation, mind-set or intent that would establish whether racism is present? The cashier (without receiving the i.d. card) would have charged "Falang" price, based on the customer's skin color, etc.

People can 'mince" words any way you wish but the truth is that racism in Thailand is everywhere, regardless of how you wish to "paint" it.

[markg]

I used to work for an insurance company, where discrimination is the way to go: people in certain parts of the land pay less for their car or household insurance because the risk is less, younger people pay more for car insurance because they are a higher risk, older people pay more for health insurance because they are a higher risk, women pay less for life insurance then men because they are a lower risk, etc.

Steven, what you have highlighted is 'risk assessment' based upon empirically provable data that if someone lives in zone X they are more at risk than someone living in zone Y. That's not discriminatory.

What would be discriminatory is if someone ringing up with (say) an Indian name/muslim/African name or whatever, and they AUTOMATICALLY get a different insurance policy, irrespective of where they live. That would be discriminatory, and that is in essence, what 'some' organisations do in this country. They blindly discriminate against certain people, making an assumption that because they are Western, or Japanese or whatever, that they have more money than the indigenous population - and that is a dangerous assumption to make.

Having discounts for children and pensioners is applied irrespective of skin colour or perceived ability to be able to pay.

The simple fact is that 'some' none Thai's have to pay a premium based upon their perceived wealth. That's just not right.

I had the same comments in India. I travelled for 6 months on 500baht a day, which had to include travel, accommodation and food. Every Rupee counted. A few people trotted out the tired old chestnut of 'well you must be rich because you can afford to fly here" but when i explained i had spent the majority of my money on the ticket and only had a little bit left, they began to understand. I was treated in exactly the same way as the locals. The ONLY place i had to pay a premium for was at the Taj Mahal where Indians paid 20 Rupee and all foreigners something like 200.

Everywhere else there was one price to pay and one price only.

Fair is fair.

[Peterocket]

Just so that I understand you correctly, a "white Thai" is (in most cases) a "luk-khrueng" or half-thai, half-"other". When these "white thais" approach the cashier at the local market (talad nat, etc) and offer their Thai I.D. card, the cashier automatically gives them the "Thai price". If they don't present their I.D. cards, they typically pay Falang prices. I have to admit that this scenario is a bit far-fetched and/or not too common.

Isn't it the perception of the cashier/store owner and/or motivation, mind-set or intent that would establish whether racism is present? The cashier (without receiving the i.d. card) would have charged "Falang" price, based on the customer's skin color, etc.

People can 'mince" words any way you wish but the truth is that racism in Thailand is everywhere, regardless of how you wish to "paint" it.

Well said....

[awd]

A quick reminder that "Thai" is not a race of people, but rather a political and geographic term used to describe people of a few races from many places.

[stevenl]

Steven, what you have highlighted is 'risk assessment' based upon empirically provable data that if someone lives in zone X they are more at risk than someone living in zone Y. That's not discriminatory.

Geografical location is just one of the things I mentioned, how about age?

You are mixing up discrimination with racism in your post BTW, discrimination means: (Wikipedia, the most basic definition): Discrimination is a sociological term referring to treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group that is taken in consideration based on class or category.

Having discounts for children and pensioners is applied irrespective of skin colour or perceived ability to be able to pay.

So, that still makes it discrimination: treatment of a certain group that differs from other groups.

@ Thefalang: Yes, there is rasicm, of course, but I don't think dual pricing is racism, simply because it is not based on race: the asian race will pay farang price, and the farang with Thai ID, or workpermit, tax card, etc., will mostly pay Thai price.

And of course, I think that dual pricing is far less prevalent than a lot of other posters here seem to think.

[WOOHOO]

But in response to your post if you punch a black man it is not necessarily a racist attack. If you punch a man because he is black then it is a racist attack. So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

The word 'because' is the key word in this argument, and the key word in my understanding of racism. You left the word out of the second part of your statement. I assume that you would be happy for that to read ' So for businesses that charge all white people, a higher price, because they are white, then it is racism.' This is where my logic differs, it would seem, from most. Racism is in the eye of the beholder, and as far as I'm concerned the shop keeper isn't charging the Farang more, because he is white, that argument goes out the window the second he charges a Japanese or a Chinese person the higher price. Please fill in the blank for me. He is charging the Japanese man more, because.......... ? Is he charging him more because he is from another race or is the fact that he is from another race not the key factor. This is where our different logic comes in to place. As far as I'm concerned he is charging him more, because he is a tourist and he is deemed as being in a financial position to pay the higher price. The fact that he is also a different race is purely a coincidence, lets face it, the vast majority of tourists will obviously be from a different race. Your logic dictates, that the reason why he charged him more is irrelevant, the 'because' as it were, is neither here nor there to you, just the fact that the scenario involves people from two different races therefor must be racist, which is what I was getting at with the punching the black man example. It's not the action that is racist, it's not the fact that people from two different races are involved, it's the thought process behind the action that's relevant. So quite simply for dual pricing to be truly racist the perpetrator needs to be a racist person and that's where I believe your logic fails, because unlike others I don't believe the average Thai is particularly racist. It certainly isn't as prevalent in Thais as it is English people, of that I'm certain. If the shop keeper has no prejudices against the customer based on his skin colour or the country he is from, but charges him a higher price because he is a tourist and therefor deemed to be rich, by definition is not being racist. I think that logic is indisputable.

As for the people that think leaving a western country to go traveling for six months on a small budget is the same as being from a poor country, I can't help you, your logic is far too damaged to be saved.

[thefalang]

A quick reminder that "Thai" is not a race of people, but rather a political and geographic term used to describe people of a few races from many places.

Yes, perhaps to you & myself but many Thais think differently. A Thai will often say "Khon Thai" when referring to ethnic Thai's as they would say "Khon Jeen" referring to enthic Chinese who all may happen to have Thai nationality.

The distinction between nationalities, religions and ethnicities is often blurred by Thais as if race is the "deciding factor".

[thefalang]

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

I, again, agree to disagree.

Paying a different price due to your ethnicity is racism within the scope of most people's definition. Dual pricing, racism (or whatever you choose to call it) is prevalent everywhere you go in Thailand to a lesser or greater extent. In Phuket, it's very prevalent and blatant.

I have accompanied "luk khreung" from the US in Phuket who did not speak any Thai, had no Thai i.d. and received Thai price because of their ethnicity. Sounds like pricing based on race to me.

If it walks, quacks, and waddles like a duck, it's probably a duck regardless of the label who wish to attach to it!!

[seaeagle]

WOOHOO

Racism is in the eye of the beholder,

Not quite. You seem to be basing some of your comments on English attitudes / legislation. So here goes. In UK law:

If the employee at work feels bullied by his manager, he IS being bullied.

If the girl feels harrassed sexually by an arm around the shoulder, she IS being sexually harrassed.

If the person feels they are being treated differently because of their enthnic, racial background, then they ARE a victim of racism.

No, 'racism' and the other equality / discrimination examples, are in the eyes of the 'victim'.

Edited November 7, 2009 by seaeagle

[awd]

A quick reminder that "Thai" is not a race of people, but rather a political and geographic term used to describe people of a few races from many places.

Yes, perhaps to you & myself but many Thais think differently. A Thai will often say "Khon Thai" when referring to ethnic Thai's as they would say "Khon Jeen" referring to enthic Chinese who all may happen to have Thai nationality.

The distinction between nationalities, religions and ethnicities is often blurred by Thais as if race is the "deciding factor".

Again, you are confusing race and ethnicity, and political regions and geographic origins. I know Thai citizens who are American born with absolutely no Asian heritage and farangs without Thai citizenship who were born in Thailand and every imaginable combination in between. What we all have in common is that rarely do any of us pay higher prices than a Thai rice farmer making 130 baht per day. Show respect and residency and you'll meet with amazing results. Approach with a chip on your shoulder, wearing your racial pride like a badge, and your lack of humility will be met with consistently higher prices. C'est la vie!

[harleyclarkey]

Give me a break... double pricing happens everywhere. In the US many Florida companies offers seniors citizens discounts, Disney offers Florida residents discounts.

My reading of the OP is that there is a price for Thais and a Foreign price.

Do they charge different prices in the States for Black/White?? American/Foreign?? I don't think so.

For sure here (Europe) it is 100% against the law. And rightly so as it is 100% racist.

Edited November 7, 2009 by harleyclarkey

[harleyclarkey]

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

So...a few "whites" with Thai ID get a lower price. And the huge majority of the other "whites" don't.

That to me is primarily based on race/colour and is in fact racism. You can be a racist based on nationality as well as race.

Maybe then, to be more accurate, this is racial discrimination. We are just splitting words here. The basic fact is we ARE charged more in many cases because we are foreign/white/whatever.

[thefalang]

Again, you are confusing race and ethnicity, and political regions and geographic origins. I know Thai citizens who are American born with absolutely no Asian heritage and farangs without Thai citizenship who were born in Thailand and every imaginable combination in between. What we all have in common is that rarely do any of us pay higher prices than a Thai rice farmer making 130 baht per day. Show respect and residency and you'll meet with amazing results. Approach with a chip on your shoulder, wearing your racial pride like a badge, and your lack of humility will be met with consistently higher prices. C'est la vie!

I have no difficulty, whatsoever, differentiating between ethnicity, nationality or religious preference. You obviously did not read my post completely and/or did not understand it.

Sorry, but I don't understand the relevancy of your post and mine at all.

[LivinLOS]

If they are Lao and speak Thai they pay local rate.. If they are Burmese and speak Thai they pay local rate.. If they are Malay and speak Thai they pay local rate.. But if they are not asian they pay the higher rate.

White Thais pay the local rate.

White meaning Caucasian ??

Thats odd because I remember a westerner who was brought up here since a child, had Thai nationality and spoke fluent Thai.. and was often given the tourist price to have to argue.

So for businesses that charge all 'white' people a higher price then it is racism. Its not really hard to grasp or even debatable to be honest.

Obviously it is very much debatable, because that is not the case here. If somebody is white but has aThai ID card, he gets the lower Thai price. That makes it nationality, not skin colour. If somebody is from Chinese (or any other Asian) origin and it is detected by the cashier, he/she will be charged the foreigner price.

So where is the racism in that?

But thats isnt the case.. As I said above evidence of a Thai national Caucasian who spent lots of his life here still getting it applied based on assumption.

Edited November 8, 2009 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

Yes, discrimination would be a better word. And of course there is discrimination here, just as everywhere else in the world. In most western countries elderly and younger people pay less for lots of activities, government and private, and that is discrimination, but PC correct discrimination. There are food stamps for the poor, so they even get their food for free, but that is also PC discrimination. And there are many, many examples of things like that.

And when the discrimination is based on race, its racial discrimination or racism for short !!

[LivinLOS]

@ Thefalang: Yes, there is rasicm, of course, but I don't think dual pricing is racism, simply because it is not based on race: the asian race will pay farang price, and the farang with Thai ID, or workpermit, tax card, etc., will mostly pay Thai price.

OK so you admit that its not always then..

And I can say absolutely that the Lao girls I have known NEVER paid the farang price.. So its race not 'thai' !!

[LivinLOS]

Again, you are confusing race and ethnicity, and political regions and geographic origins. I know Thai citizens who are American born with absolutely no Asian heritage and farangs without Thai citizenship who were born in Thailand and every imaginable combination in between. What we all have in common is that rarely do any of us pay higher prices than a Thai rice farmer making 130 baht per day. Show respect and residency and you'll meet with amazing results.

But it also depends on where.. Try it in Patong and see how far that American born non asian gets at same same pricing.

[Nignoy]

Agree with 'Markg', bottom line is that there should be one price for all. If discounts are then offered through age/sex/occupation/etc, that's OK, but it should be up front.

That sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me. One price for all, except x,y & z, so it's not one price for all, at all. A product or service has a value, which is simply determined by the price people are prepared to pay for it. That may seem harsh, but it's simply the way it is. Think about airlines/travel agents that double the prices of flights and holidays during the school holidays, simply because they know that's the only time families can travel? What about the motorway services that charges £6 for a crappy sandwich, simply because they are the only person selling sandwiches for 30 miles? It's not quite the same, but it's the same principle. People selling things for a price people are willing to buy them for. It's not new, it's not only in Phuket, it's simply the way of the world. You just need to use your common sense to avoid it as often as possible.

There is of course a Hotel agency at 205/15Rath-U-Thit 200 Pee Road who advertise on the internet, sell the services of a large hotel on the same area, and when youturn up with your family, the hotel refuse to honour the voucher, and deny confirming your booking even though you have the hotels confirmation on theirown headed email, if you want to stay then you have to pay again !!after the drive down from Huahin ,we were knackered and after 2 hours dicussion we caved inand agreed to pay the extra, just to get a shower and a sleep, So I guess you could call that double standards

That's not quite the same thing. In this case you were blatantly ripped off. I understand your needs at the time, but I would never have paid them again, not in a million years. Did you ever get the money back?

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