Our Outside Dogs Bark At Night

[fremmel]

We have a problem with nuisance barking by our two 1 year old German Shepherds. We live way out in the country on 30 rai on a very quiet road and no near neighbors. Our dogs are outside dogs and are never allowed in the house. They are not fenced and have never been tied up except for a little leash training but they don't go out roaming off our property. We've had them since they were small and as the dogs matured they went through phases where they would bark at the occasional passing vehicle. They've pretty much gotten over that unless a tractor goes by that has a dog running along behind it.

Our problem is that at night they've started barking in response to dogs they hear barking in the far distance. These are aggressive warning barks, not lonely howls, even though the dogs are clearly way off from our property. When we're awake we can check out what's out there and say "NO!" and they've about gotten over doing that. But they still do it after we've gone to bed. It's not all night long but it's enough to wake me up at least once nearly every night.

I realize that they aren't particularly well socialized. They've never really been around other dogs except when we put them in the car occasionally while we do some local shopping. But even then, they're only moderately interested when they see other dogs. I don't know if it would help to put them on a leash and walk through a neighboring village to get them more used to other dogs.

Most of the ideas I've seen here and elsewhere on the web to train against barking aren't really applicable because ours are outside dogs and I can't immediately intervene when they bark since it takes me a couple of minutes to get out of bed and get out of the house. Would an anti-barking collar work and if so, where can I get one?

Any ideas on how to keep them from barking at night?

Edited October 14, 2009 by fremmel

[bina]

Our problem is that at night they've started barking in response to dogs they hear barking in the far distance. These are aggressive warning barks, not lonely howls, even though the dogs are clearly way off from our property. When we're awake we can check out what's out there and say "NO!" and they've about gotten over doing that. But they still do it after we've gone to bed. It's not all night long but it's enough to wake me up at least once nearly every night.

they are male, reaching sexual maturity and starting to do what they are meant to do, especially alsations: guard their property (your property)... and because they arent fenced or leashed, their sense of territory is very very large.. how do u know they dont roam far at night? are u awake and watching them at two in the morning?

they of course will answer other dogs barking. so do my three small house dogs. every nite. they answer the bitch down by the horses when she barks at the foxes/jackals and human intruders; they answer the neighbhors' dogs who also answer the bitch at the horses, and they also bark every time a cat comes on to the balcony, or a car makes an uncar like noise; or someone walks past very late at night and makes noise that isnt usual for that hour... its when its too quiet suddenly that u know there is a problem (theft about to progress so dogs were poisoned or lured away)... that goes for anyone living in farming/small village areas.

in other words, dogs at night protect their pack/area and they hear better then us, see better then us and respond logically.

what u can do is teach them to differentiate between when u want them to bark to warn u and when u want them to answer, and then shut up when u tell them to shut up. u might also consider limiting their territory by putting them in an enclosure at night. it will make them feel more secure and they wont feel they ahve to defend huge amounts of territory plus u can release them when they bark at things that u feel they should bark about (intruders/wild dogs/animals); and if not, then tell them good night good boys and they should shut up . (we say good night /bed as i do often get up to see why the three are barking. we do have intruders so many false alarms and one real one is still worth checking up on.)

its not like they are jsut standing in one area and barking out of bordom. they are working. and as a pair they back each other up so they will tend to bark more. most people want this for farming areas, thats why they get alsations as pairs.

and franky i sleep more securely knowing hta i have an early warning system. as they get older btw they usually will learn themselves when they have to really bother barking and when they can sort of just yip once or twice and go back to the ignore/sleep mode. as should u. my opinion of course.

sorry nothing more constructive

bina

israel

[Thongkorn]

Just try a Velcro mussel, or the tried and tested Super glue sandwich.

[Chinavet]

I have a similar situation with 10 dogs (two years to eight months old). I agree with Bina's comments. I keep a strong spotlight handy and if barking starts, go scan the area (from the house). This lets them know you are alerted and on the job too. Then I talk to them with level voice, thank them for doing their job, until they settle down. If they don't stop you start to talk to them sharply. If they still don't stop, go to them and take action, talk more or give them a smack, whatever works.

But whenever they bark at strangers in the area, or snakes, any legitimate reason for barking, talk to them with your 'good' voice and thank them. Slowly they learn the rules and get comfortable with it. There will always be something that will set them off, but with our pups maturing they are now actually very good and the barking is at acceptable limits and usually for the 'right' reasons. Good luck.

[fremmel]

Thanks for the replies.

I have been trying to train them to differentiate between when they should bark and not. When someone, or a dog, or a snake for that matter (they alerted us to a cobra one time), is on the property and they bark I praise and pet them. When it's off the property I speak harshly. During the day there's usually not a problem but at night they get more alert and more active and more noisy. I do have a big flashlight and use it to check things out unless I hear howling in the distance. But generally, once I come to the door or window they stop barking and just mill around me. So I don't take what they're barking at seriously unless they continue to look away and keep barking.

I do want to teach them the boundaries of where they should protect. We haven't put the land to productive use yet so there's a lot of underbrush and I haven't been able to walk the boundaries with them. I'm in the middle of clearing a path around our land and when I do I intend to walk it with them at least once every day so maybe that will teach them where to protect.

We do need the dogs for security and we do want them to bark if there's a problem. But the main reason we moved to such a remote location was to get away from all the noise in typical Thai community life. Dogs barking all night being one of the those noises. So I'm not really happy about having my own dogs take up where the old neighbor's dogs left off and just bark when they feel like it. They're good dogs and don't give us any other problems, except eating us out of house and home, so I guess we'll just continue on with what training we're doing and see if they grow out of it soon.

[bina]

u should use fenceing or posts to mark the territory because they are intact males and intact males will take on whatever territory they can manage to keep especially if its two to gether; and really, u just have to keep up the method u are doing for the most part... by age two/three they should be mature secure in themselves dogs so they will choose what they answer to as for barking. ive noticed that less confident dogs bark more of course , i guess the same way a fearful dog is more likely to attack. a secure dominant dog will calculate the nessecity of rushing around and barking vs. staying in one spot and waiting to see what will happen.

i see it hear on our sidewalk. our row has about 15 dogs, many of us have more then 1. the dogs know where their houses are, and most will follow passersby or other dogs as far as the next section of territory of the next dogs. but the less confident dogs seem to jump up and run and bark much more then the confident older dogs who assess the situation and let most things pass by quietly. remember, like with horses, most working dogs are not mature enough in their first year to really be good workers. they emotional and physical maturity. just like at around 8 months mostdogs suddenly stop being obedient, start eating up shoes, and doing stupid 'teenage' activities. this usually wears off by 12 months and then they get more serious (except for boxers) .

and btw, they mill around u as the 'alpha' who has arrived, and they are waiting for u to decide what to do. and u should always take them seriously as mabye they heard or saw something that to them was a perceived danger (remember, young = less confident, less experience) whereas in an other year they wont see that same action/sound as a danger.

bina

israel

[Cuban]

I've not a lot to add to the above comments, my dogs do the same and I'm pleased that people moving around the village at night know that our house has dogs awake and alert to their movements. Last night they alerted us to people walking out in the rice fields (frog hunting), not an every night activity so as Bina says thank them for being good guard dogs and I shielded their shelter with iron sheets to prevent futher false alarms.

One thing that is worth mentioning here is training your extended family how to deal with dogs at night; on a previous occasion some months ago when I responded to early hours barking, turned his barking/fear to me as I approached with a flashlight. On that occasion pointing the light in his eyes he could not see me and I had not spoken. I appeared to be an approaching threat, anyone visiting them at night should always call the dogs' names to reassure them that you are friend not foe.

When I realised it was the flashlight spooking him I turned it on myself and went into our morning greeting routine, he was shaking with the rage that had pumped up inside during what was a few tense moments. I understand how the attack on a child returning to her house late at night had happened now - that event occured about a year ago near Korat somewhere?

[bina]

cubn, that is a generally good rule for indoor dogs also; when approaching the house, we always call out to the dogs... a stranger doing the same thing will not get the same response as family will, even if they call out the names of the dogs using the same words etc; especially important if u are dog sitting (had to babysit a sharpei named mulan , how original, and the first few days involved lots of growling and fear exhibition as she is a fearful dog... i found that by walking in the house with her walking leash already in hand, and me singing out in a sweet voice 'wanno go for a walky' (well, in hebrew), it reduced the 'at the door' attacks...

but good point cuban.

bina

israel

[fremmel]

We get people hunting for food at night on our land as well. When the dogs bark at them I do praise and pet them. It's the nuisance barking at other dogs that bothers me. It does help that we're far enough away from other houses that we don't very often get other dogs passing by, just hear them when they howl in the distance.

It sounds like the only way to go is to continue to praise them for performance I like and scold them for what I don't like. At least they do respond well to their names and listen when I scold them though sometimes I have to repeat it. For instance when we drive off the male (I used dogs generically before, we actually have one intact male and one spayed bitch) will start to follow. I stop, get out of the car, and tell him "No!" and he'll turn around and start back. But then we'll drive a little farther and he'll start to follow again. After 2 or 3 times like this he'll finally stop. This is an improvement from a couple of months ago so I guess the key is just tedious repitition.

Since I don't like noise I built the house to try to isolate outside noises. That creates a bit of a problem with training because at night I hear them if they bark on the side of the house where the bedroom is and I can do something about it. But I generally don't hear them if they bark on the other side. So my response is going to be somewhat inconsistent which I'm sure will slow down their training.

Speaking of names. My wife was concerned about someone wanting to steal our dogs so she wanted names that a Thai couldn't pronounce well. We settled on Brutus and Shipwreck. The problem is, she doesn't really speak English so she can't pronounce the names correctly either. But our poor dogs seem to do OK with having two names each. When we scold them we use their names and I guess I sound meaner when I scold because they respond faster to the English version of their names than to the Thai version.

Edited October 19, 2009 by fremmel

[bina]

dont use names when scolding. be generic. and trust me, dogs dont care what names they have, if someone wants to distract your dog (non neutered), they just have to bring a bitch in heat ... all our dogs have had at least three names,and speak more then one language and if someone wants to steal, liver works well.

in israel agricultural theft is rampant and we have had some horribly behaved nasty horses stolen in the past, i dont know how they loaded them on the cart or managed to walk them out of here, but they did... intact males will do anything to get to mares/bitches in heat, plus a million other methods ive heard and seen used...

bina

israel

[macb]

Its no good having a dog and barking yourself

If your dogs are barking at night then as Bina states they are working: The OP is lucky having two GSD'S that are backing each other up

[Pitbullman1]

I would just accept it! Dogs have exellent senses and may hear or smell something that you can't see. They are warning you of something. Our dogs bark at night, and you can bet your bottom dollar it's a stray cat hiding in the hedges of one of our neighbours gardens.

[fremmel]

The amount of attention I pay to the dogs barking at night depends on whether both are barking. It's actually the bitch that tends to answer the far off dogs at night. So if it's only her barking, and in her normal tone, I generally just disregard it and yell "NO!" at her. If both dogs are barking then I tend to take more notice but, thankfully, that doesn't happen very often.

I'm surprised about not using the dog's names when scolding. Our two have different behaviors and both respond well to their names. For instance, it's the dog that wants to go after the passing tractors that might have dogs with them. If I call his name sharply he'll stop and come back. If both are misbehaving then I just say "NO!" and don't use names.

[bina]

oh!! if u call his name to give him command: BULLY STOP! CASEY SIT, thats one thing, using a dog's name is a way of getting attention, and then giving him a command. if u use his name and then punish/scold, thats a detterant for getting him/her to pay attention. PAYING ATTENTION is one of the first things that are taught to dogs. in some dogs, and many specific breeds, its a built in trait (dobermans, gsd's, poodles, actually most working dogs of any sort apart from sheep guarding dogs -not herders, guarders, like kuvasz, etc- ) . however, some dogs, and some breeds, the 'paying attention to the person' has to be developed and re inforced. when workign with puppies its usually done by using the name, followed by a rinky dinky piece of treat when the pup looks up at u.

and macb, trainer of working GSD's (german shepherds) knows his GSD'S...)

so the sharp NO is correct.

there are , AFAIK two negative commands: NO and STOP. all others are positive commands for actions, including LEAVE IT. so for the postitives u would use the dogs names. BRUTUS is an easy name to say quickly, but SHIPWRECK? hwo on earth? ? ... probably shortened to SHIP (sounds like SHIT when pronounced by thai ...which sounds like SIT to the dog... ) or maybe pronoounced SIPPY (tzippy is an israeli girls name ) )...

working with two dogs can be fun, we 've had some threads about that; u can do it i did it with my boxers...

the male chases the tractors /dogs cause they are invading his territory and he runs them off his land; the bitch probably wont go as far, she will stay closer to home but still vocally warn far off 'strangers'... which is why a male/female setup is a good working set up which we've always used also.

bina

israel

hey macb, haven seen u around lately?

[macb]

oh!! if u call his name to give him command: BULLY STOP! CASEY SIT, thats one thing, using a dog's name is a way of getting attention, and then giving him a command. if u use his name and then punish/scold, thats a detterant for getting him/her to pay attention. PAYING ATTENTION is one of the first things that are taught to dogs. in some dogs, and many specific breeds, its a built in trait (dobermans, gsd's, poodles, actually most working dogs of any sort apart from sheep guarding dogs -not herders, guarders, like kuvasz, etc- ) . however, some dogs, and some breeds, the 'paying attention to the person' has to be developed and re inforced. when workign with puppies its usually done by using the name, followed by a rinky dinky piece of treat when the pup looks up at u.

and macb, trainer of working GSD's (german shepherds) knows his GSD'S...)

so the sharp NO is correct.

there are , AFAIK two negative commands: NO and STOP. all others are positive commands for actions, including LEAVE IT. so for the postitives u would use the dogs names. BRUTUS is an easy name to say quickly, but SHIPWRECK? hwo on earth? ? ... probably shortened to SHIP (sounds like SHIT when pronounced by thai ...which sounds like SIT to the dog... ) or maybe pronoounced SIPPY (tzippy is an israeli girls name ) )...

working with two dogs can be fun, we 've had some threads about that; u can do it i did it with my boxers...

the male chases the tractors /dogs cause they are invading his territory and he runs them off his land; the bitch probably wont go as far, she will stay closer to home but still vocally warn far off 'strangers'... which is why a male/female setup is a good working set up which we've always used also.

bina

israel

hey macb, haven seen u around lately?

Hi there Bina:

Been very busy doing this and that will send you a PM later !!

Thanks for the accolade :

I would add that your knowledge is exemplary and the advice you give to those requiring assistance is worthy both of my praise and the members asking for assistance.

As for commands you right, names mean nothing to dogs, its used to get there attention.

One command SIT STAY DOWN: Dogs are like kids keep it short and sharp and dont be repetative (Example say SIT 3 times then your dog will wait for the three commands before re-acting )

You need 2 vocal levels, one for the command and one for the praise:

Not training tips for you but to remind the others :

[fremmel]

Shipwreck got her name from her amazing gracefulness as a puppy . In fact, that was how we ended up with a male/female pair. We bought Shipwreck when she was born from a Thai neighbor and left her to live with the mother and siblings for a couple of months. But during that time she fell and injured herself and limped for several days. We were concerned the injury was permanent and she'd have a hard time ranging around our property so we tried to get our money back. The owner wouldn't return it but did sell us a her brother in addition. Just as well so that the single puppy wouldn't be as lonely and now you tell me that it's a good combination so that's good. The downside is that the owner was afraid something else would happen so he made us take them home just 6 weeks after they were born.

Actually, once you get used to saying it, Shipwreck isn't that hard to say. It's only two syllables like Brutus. And it suited my wife's purpose in being somewhat difficult for Thais to say.

Trying to train two puppies at once didn't work out too well. I've no experience with animals other than a couple of dogs as a kid so I tried to read up on basic training ideas. I didn't know to look for special techniques for 2 puppies at once but I learned quickly that the standard ways didn't work. This whole thing has been quite a learning experience.

Regarding the barking, I may not have made myself clear at the beginning. It's not the barking at threats that I have a problem with, It's the barking at things that they find interesting or threatening but that I don't think are threats. What I'm trying to do is to teach the dogs how to distinguish between the two. If they can't and continue barking several times a night then I'm not going to be able to take what they're "saying" seriously. Ala, the boy who cried wolf. Their sheer size is still a deterent factor for intruders but I'd much rather know that when they bark there's something worth checking out.

It sounds like what I've been doing is OK, but slow, so I'll continue with scolding and encouraging. But it's hard not to disregard all their barking like I did yesterday when another tractor came by. Brutus started his usual barking and running out to the road so I automatically started calling him back. But then I saw there actually was a dog with it that had come on the property. So I changed my tone and encouraged him to chase it off. And then praised him when he came back. But that's pretty hard to do at night when I can't easily see what they're barking at. I've compromised by assuming that it's nothing and so scolding them when they start barking but if they continue barking, and do it with some urgency, then I'll go check it out.

[Pitbullman1]

I was a Police Dog handler / trainer for many years. We always used German Shepherd dogs. Since retiring I have trianed my German shepherd dog, two Rottwielers and a Pit Bull in the same way as I trained my Police dogs. macb is spot on with his advice of using one word commands. But to use one word commands, they need to be tonal. "Down" and "stay" are mandatory commands and must be used with a heavy tone, strong and meaning full, and without praise! Whereas "Sit, come, and fetch" need to be used with a soft voice and given lots of praise shortly afterwards.

You should always scold your dogs when they are actually caught in the act of doing something wrong, and not afterwards. As for the dog who chases tractors, this is a game for him which he thoroughly enjoys. To stop him will take time, and patience. I suggest that when you are with him, put him on a check chain (correctly fitted) attached to a long piece of rope. When he sets off in pursuit of a tractor, shout "No." and pull on the rope as hard as you possibly can, this will stop him in his tracks. Then in a soft voice tell him to "come" and reel him in. When he is at your feet, tell him in a soft voice to sit and step into the dog, and at the same time lifting the rope thus causing him to sit. Wait a few seconds then give him lots of praise. If you keep up with this method of training he will soon get the message that it is wrong to chase tractors and whatever vehicles he fancies to do so on the day.

Remember practice makes perfect. So don't do it for a week then neglect it for a week, but constantly be on top of these exercises.

Good Luck with your training.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Pitbullman1

[straightdave]

We have a problem with nuisance barking by our two 1 year old German Shepherds. We live way out in the country on 30 rai on a very quiet road and no near neighbors. Our dogs are outside dogs and are never allowed in the house. They are not fenced and have never been tied up except for a little leash training but they don't go out roaming off our property. We've had them since they were small and as the dogs matured they went through phases where they would bark at the occasional passing vehicle. They've pretty much gotten over that unless a tractor goes by that has a dog running along behind it.

Our problem is that at night they've started barking in response to dogs they hear barking in the far distance. These are aggressive warning barks, not lonely howls, even though the dogs are clearly way off from our property. When we're awake we can check out what's out there and say "NO!" and they've about gotten over doing that. But they still do it after we've gone to bed. It's not all night long but it's enough to wake me up at least once nearly every night.

I realize that they aren't particularly well socialized. They've never really been around other dogs except when we put them in the car occasionally while we do some local shopping. But even then, they're only moderately interested when they see other dogs. I don't know if it would help to put them on a leash and walk through a neighboring village to get them more used to other dogs.

Most of the ideas I've seen here and elsewhere on the web to train against barking aren't really applicable because ours are outside dogs and I can't immediately intervene when they bark since it takes me a couple of minutes to get out of bed and get out of the house. Would an anti-barking collar work and if so, where can I get one?

Any ideas on how to keep them from barking at night?

try a sounddevice used by postman

leave it close by-it should be outta of range for yours

[fremmel]

Thanks for the continuing input. It re-enforces some of the things I've learned by trail and error and adds new info.

When Brutus started chasing tractors, or our car when we drove off, I used to shout his name and say "NO!". When he'd stop I'd say, in a nice voice, "Good boy". He taught me quickly that didn't work because he'd start right back chasing again. So now I wait until he's almost back before I start to praise him but shortly after he'll start back out again. Then I have to call him again. I'll try waiting longer until he's actually back with me for a bit.

I do have a heavy check chain for both of them and I used them when going for walks on the property to get them used to them. Now I've only been using them when we go off and I need to make sure I can control them. I'm been afraid to jerk on it for fear of hurting them so I just hold it and let them pull against it. I'll be a little less cautious now. Since tractors are the only thing he chases and they only come by 5 or 6 times a day using the long rope isn't practical in this case. But he responds well to his name and does return. Since there isn't any discomfort associated with it I guess it will just take longer to completely train him.

I know that time decreases the association a dog has between events so I'm careful to only scold a dog when I find them in the act. I was always conflicted when they were in the shoe chewing phase about whether to give them a tap with the shoe when I'd find one they chewed. I was afraid they wouldn't know what the tap was for and they'd decide the shoes were bad things and start hiding them. Thankfully they haven't done that in a while.

Straightdave. what is the sound device you're talking about? Is it the ultrasonic noise maker that's painful to dogs? If so, that won't work here because there are several groups of dogs that are barking and they are several hundred meters away in different directions. I can't even hear the other dogs unless I go outside and sometimes not then. I only know our dogs are answering because my wife can faintly hear them. Of course our dogs have no trouble at all hearing them. I have thought about using something like that on our dogs to give them a little discomfort but I'm not sure it'd work and I don't know where to get one.

[macb]

Nice to hear from another Ex Dog Handler:

Separate your command Tones from your praise tones: As mentioned praise must come immediately after your dog has performed different exercises: As with correction you must correct your dog at the time he does something wrong not after because he does not know: So many people chastise there dog when they do not respond to a COME command or re-call then they wonder why the dog does not return.

Have a look at my pinned Topic on Dog Training if you have not already done so.

Also remember training must be fun for the dog as well as you, and little and often. If you bounce along in training so will your dog if you walk along sluggish as if not interested it feed down the lead to your dog.

Well just a few hints and reminders.

Your dogs do not need to be chasing other dogs really or tractors.

Tell us what your dogs bark at at night ? I would guess frogs crabs lizards and of course snakes. But normally you should in time be able to differentiate between the business bark and the curious bark

[fremmel]

Things seem to have settled down some from when I started the thread last week. Thinking back about various events and things I've done since I think I've figured out a little about what was going on with them barking in response to other dogs at night. They started doing it 3 weeks or so ago, about when the Buddhist Lent got over and everyone around here was shooting off lots of fireworks at night. And that was when my wife went to see her folks for a few days and took our cat, that they like to play with, with her. So it was just me here and I don't normally spend a lot of time outside with them like my wife does. I think the changes probably spooked the dogs. When my wife got back she brought a couple of kids with her for a week so that was a change too. Things are back to normal now and last week I started cutting a path around the inside of our property line. Each evening we've been taking them for a walk along it trying to better define what they have to worry about. The last couple of nights they haven't been barking at the far away dogs and during the day the male is still interested in the passing tractors if there's a dog with it but he's not as driven as before. So maybe things will work out.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[bina]

GOOD JOB... : )) people need to be positively reinforced also

jerk on it for fear of hurting them so I just hold it and let them pull against i

--that is the worst thing u can do unfortunately. by letting him pull, he is learning that a/ he is stronger then u b/leashes have no power c/u can hurt his vocal cords

always always use a quick sort of SNAP /release with the chain fit on the neck properly... the snap is sort of a reminder that YOU are at the end of the leash. its not meant ot hurt/frighten or injure the dog... its kind of like a dog snapping at an other dog as a reminder. some dogs are more sensitive then others but the idea is that u can walk with the lead relaxed in your hand, with only a quick snap once in a while as a reminder if he/she surges forward or pulls off in any other direction then where he should be going, which is along side you. its like working with horses; if u pull on the bit all the time, the horse never responds, a good horse had a good trainer and has a good rider that doesnt pull and put pressure on him constantly. if someone always tugs on your hand, u wont pay attention. if someone pulls slightly on your hand, occasionally, chances are u will immediately respond. same same for most dogs (some breeds again are different and need different tools for working with them).

btw, for car chasers i found a squeaky toy a great diverter. the car is going along, i call the dog, and squeak squeak, the dog stops, turns around , runs in my direction, an other squeak, a treat (rinky dinky sized) and a squeaky toy AND put on lead and walked off in opposite direction.

I think the changes probably spooked the dogs

you seem to be fairly sensitive to your dogs so i think u are doing well. gsd's are probably fun dogs to work with, pliant, responsive, intelligent, not too clownish like boxers, not stubborn like bullies or sheep guard dogs, and not independant workers like the ones ive got...

we've been taking them for a walk along it trying to better define what they have to worry about

also good going. dogs really like having a 'higher commmander' that they can rely on, and defined areas so it all sounds like the walks are also giving them self confidence as they have you as the 'big boss calling the shots' so they feel less defensive and fearful and more ready to work. also age improves everything.

fun fun fun is the rule of the game.

and thanx macb.....

bina

israel

[macb]

Well it looks like you will be able to achieve things with your dogs:

The first rule is Basic obedience once you have achieved this then that means you are the pack leader and have control of your dogs, then you can move onto more in depth training.

Walking to heel

Sit on command

Recall

Don't try to run before you can walk as they say and remember that you need to bring the Polish back with both dogs fairly often, you cant just assume they will be sharp on commands once you have taught them, its a continual training exercise to keep them on top and you on top.

Have fun and don't hesitate to ask if your not sure about something

[fremmel]

You guys certainly have patience. Thanks for the continuing "Train the Trainer" instruction.

The check chains we have for the dogs are heavy, small links that are snug enough to just fit over their heads but still have 2 or 3 inches of slack. So I think we're OK there. Bina, your explanation of the snap/release action and the reason for it is very understandable and I'll start using it to control them when we go out.

Macb, we're OK on some your list and not so OK on others parts.

The dogs respond well to their names and come to us when we call the first time, almost without exception.

We tried to teach them to sit when they were very young but we had trouble holding their attention with both of them together and they'd get anxious and distracted when they were separated. My wife was more persistent than I and she always makes them individually sit before she feeds them and they do well there. Not so well when I tell them to sit before I pet them so I guess I need to work on that.

We never even tried with the walking to heel. After the abortive training attempts when they were very young I got lazy. Though they didn't like it at first we were able to accustom them to the leash. They don't constantly tug and pull when we walk them that way, just occasionally when they find something very interesting. When we walk the property line we don't use a leash and just let them free range and investigate stuff. We call them back if they go too far and they always come. We almost never take them off the property so is the walking to heel really essential?

As far as more in depth training, I hadn't really planned on any. My intent with these dogs was to have yard dogs that seldom left the property and would just hang out and provide protection from amateur thieves or wandering dogs. If they came when I called and didn't bark all the time or cause problems I figured I'd be happy. I'd keep them happy by feeding them well, giving them a big area to play in with another dog for company, keeping them healthy, and spending a bit of time with them at the end of the day. Hopefully that's enough to keep all of us satisfied.

[Nienke]

Fremmel from what you have established with your dogs till now they are doing absolutely great. They are only just 1 year old.

You say that your dogs almost always come when called, they stick in your neigborhood, they respond pretty well to your commands and only recently there was a minor barking problem. And this you already solved as you found out the cause of the problem.

From what you write I get the impression you have been educating your dogs in a very dog-friendly way, with respect for their desires and needs. Why then now grabbing to dog unfriendly methods such as choke chains. Changes are high that the bond of trust you have build up with your dogs will be damaged, besides that the correction devices can do quite some damage mentally and/or physically to a dog. E-collars can make mental wrecks out of timid, shy and nervous dogs. And many German shepherd pups gain only full confidence only when they reach mental maturity, provided they have been handled consistently and very clear. Before this one can easily break their spirit.

Choke chains can cause severe damage to the tissues in the dog's throat or in the worse case break its neck. Just imagine your dog in full speed reaching the end of the lead where it is severely choked.

As your dogs respond to you already quite good you only need to fine-tune the recall. You can do this during games (such as hide and seek), the walks around your property and training sessions.

As for the chasing, why wait till the bad behavior has started (that is the chasing) and then correct it with harsh training methods

Why not focusing on the behavior you want: their attention for you, their coming when called, their walking on slack lead, their ignoring the subject of the chase? You can do this by working under the threshold. Under this you still get the desirable behavior which you can reward with treats, hugs, kissie-kissies, cheerful voice, games, or whatever your dogs receive as real rewards.

You notice when you go over the threshold when your dogs suddenly loose attention for you and start having more attention for the chase-subject. When that happens you just withdraw a little till you are under the threshold again. The better the dogs respond to you and love the rewards you give them the closer you can go to the chase-subject. Of course, this takes time and several training sessions. But then you already realize and respect that.

I would say follow the way you already were doing and follow your guts. If you need more advise on dog-friendly training methods, feel free to pm me.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Nienke

[macb]

Whilst I appreciate that Nienke does not agree with my training methods which follows the guidelines of the Home Office for Dog Training that covers all Police Force Dog Sections in the UK 42 Forces in all.

Collate all the information you need and dis-regard what you do not need:

At the end of the day we are all here to give advice to those who need it

[bina]

ah, nienke explained the problem with 'choke chains', my grammar seemed to get garbled in my post...

and as she says, so far so good, and like macb says, pretty much same same...

the thing about heel, sit stay etc is that most dogs in 'just hanging out' mode tend to become problematic animals. the short mini work out that u do with them makes them use their brains. trust me dogs have brains and dogs get bored. also, most dogs, like most pack animals, like having a leader telling them more or less what to do. a group of teenagers, just hanging out , is also a recipe for trouble. doing your boundry walks with them, and making them work a bit is healthy for them,keeps them in line when they hit their mental maturity and start testing u (and they will), plus, gsd's are dogs with good brains and they like to 'play'...

the main point is to be the same every time: use the same words, expect the same actions, permit the same actions, be consistent, firm, pleasant, and have fun...

bina

israel

[fremmel]

Thanks all, for the encouragement. Nienke, you don't need to worry about an incipient case of animal cruelty. We bought the check, or choke, chains in full awareness that they can be misused and damaged the dog. My idea was that on the rare occasions that we took them off the property and actually used the collars when they started heading off in the wrong direction they could choose their own level of discomfort before they started to pay attention to what I told them. Bina's suggestion with the short snap/release training made good sense for if we ever decide to take them out more often and have to use leashes more extensively. In actual practice, we only put the collars on them maybe once a month or so. The only time we use them for real is if we're going to take them to the vet or they need to go off the property for some reason. If we don't go off for a long time then we'll occasionally put the collars on and use a leash to walk the property a bit so they don't get unaccustomed to walking under control.

As you can tell, I tend toward a minimalist attitude for training. I do want to have enough control so that they do what I want when I want. It's just that there's not a lot that I want them to do. As it is now, they'll respond to their names and understand "No" even when it's something they really want to do and that's about as much as I expect of them. I'm lucky that they're smart and good natured. I do understand that I need to re-enforce our relationship so I try to spend some time each day with them responding to something I say. The walks around the property seem to work well for that.

Hopefully the problem with barking at night is resolved although they woke me up last night at 3 for the first time in 3 or 4 days. But it was sustained barking at something in the yard so I guess it was probably a snake. It's hard to tell because as soon as I come out they stop barking and come back to me so I can't really see what's disturbing them. I'd really like to have them only bark when people come on to the property but that's a training technique I haven't figured out yet.

Again, thanks for the time y'all've spent helping me with this. I really do appreciate y'all helping out a newbie to the dog world.

[Nienke]

Just to give you some more food for thoughts:

* My idea was that on the rare occasions that we took them off the property and actually used the collars when they started heading off in the wrong direction

Can you tell me how the dogs can know what the 'wrong direction' is when you never really told (read: taught) them or maybe only once a month?

* they could choose their own level of discomfort

Why don't you let the dogs choose between 'behaviorA till Y brings you nothing' and 'behaviorZ only performed exactly like that brings you something you really like'? If it were you which behavior would you repeat?

Why do your dogs have to choose between 'behavior A,B,C till Y brings punishment' and only 'behaviorZ brings a treat (if they are lucky) or a mere 'good dog' praise'? Again if it were you why would you choose to repeat behaviorZ; for the treat or to avoid the punishments that all other behaviors will bring you? And would you keep on walking in full trust next to the one at the other end of the line or will you keep a sharp eye on every tensioning of the muscles which will be the signal for another sharp snap on the choke chain?

* before they started to pay attention to what I told them

And again how can you expect from your dogs that they understand what you are telling them when you only tell them this particular thing about once a month or something.

* Bina's suggestion with the short snap/release training made good sense for if we ever decide to take them out more often and have to use leashes more extensively.

Sorry to Bina, but to me it doesn't make sense at all. A dog taken out more often and which has been taught properly doesn't need any short snap/release, as it will follow you nicely on a slack lead or in heel position (if you really trained your dog the heel-command. Most pet-dog owners don't really bother to go that far, they just want their dog to not pull on the lead and follow on slack lead when asked)

A dog that does not follow nicely doesn't know what to do and that's not the dog's fault. And why should one hurt a dog or any animal for that matter for something it doesn't know?

* In actual practice, we only put the collars on them maybe once a month or so.

And then followed by sharp snaps and releases when the dogs do not walk properly (of which the dogs have no clue of what 'properly' is in the first place)? Wouldn't it be very possible that the collars then become a signal for yet again another nasty experience?

* The only time we use them for real is if we're going to take them to the vet

Auch, even worse. The perfect method to make dogs hate vets, car rides, collars etc. For many dogs here the only time they go in the car is when they go to the vet, already not a very nice experience. And then to top it off, this whole nasty experience is accompanied with snap/releases on a choke chain alternating with pats and soft words; a huge inconsistency in the mind of the dog.

* or they need to go off the property for some reason. If we don't go off for a long time then we'll occasionally put the collars on and use a leash to walk the property a bit so they don't get unaccustomed to walking under control.

Aha, there you go, the perfect moments to positively reinforce walking on a slack lead next to you on command or .... 'a (non-slip) collar and lead attached to the dog' will become the signal for walking nicely on one side of the handler and on a slack lead. I would suggest to train this on a more regular basis, though.

* As you can tell, I tend toward a minimalist attitude for training.

Making a dog obedient is much more about your interaction with the dogs than about the sit-down-stay-heel commands. However, if you expect your dogs to perform something in a certain way when you ask them to do so, it isn't more than fair to them that you first properly explained to them what and how that is; and that needs training.

We more too often expect the dog to understand what we expect from them, while we never really told them what is. And then we punish them for something they do not understand. Not really fair to the dog, is it?

* I do want to have enough control so that they do what I want when I want.

They can only do what you expect them to do after you have explained (trained) it properly.

* It's just that there's not a lot that I want them to do.

That's no problem. It's not necessary as I've explained before.

* As it is now, they'll respond to their names

Excellent, because then you have a good tool to get their attention when you need to.

* and understand "No" even when it's something they really want to do and that's about as much as I expect of them.

You say NO for behaviors you do not want. Okay. But do you explain to them what behavior you DO want instead?

* I do understand that I need to re-enforce our relationship so I try to spend some time each day with them responding to something I say. The walks around the property seem to work well for that.

Oh yeh, I believe that! GSD's love to be with their human pack members. If possible they will follow you where ever and when you do not move they lie down at your feet or close by. My GSD's are like that. Just now one is lying at my right, the other one a little to the right behind me, the golden right behind my chair, another golden a little behind that, one pug at my feet and the other goes on and off my lap, and Beethoven in the middle of my office. When I stand up, which I will do soon as I haven't had dinner yet, they all will get up and follow me to the house.

Hopefully the problem with barking at night is resolved although they woke me up last night at 3 for the first time in 3 or 4 days. But it was sustained barking at something in the yard so I guess it was probably a snake.

*It's hard to tell because as soon as I come out they stop barking and come back to me

That is so typical GSD. Lovely breed.

* so I can't really see what's disturbing them. I'd really like to have them only bark when people come on to the property but that's a training technique I haven't figured out yet.

It would be more fair if you allow them to alarm bark once or twice, then go out and have a look what's going in. Others have given you advice about that already.

The one 'in charge' is the one with the duty to protect the pack (and not by force as that's a sign of weakness!!!). If your dogs would take over this duty on their own account you may end up with quite a problem.

Unfortunately it is a bit difficult for them to figure out that at night their protection is asleep and therefore they may bark a bit more persistent in calling you over.

I have the guest dogs in the cage/doghouse/kennel/small confinement/bench/orwhateveronepreferstocallit at night and my own dogs are in the house. Nowadays I have 30 to 50 dogs each night. However, it's only once a month or less that I have a noisy dog at night, which is usually due to anxiety than to alarm barking. My neighbor dogs, on the other hand, run free at night and bark and howl a lot, almost every night.

And then last but not least, examples:

1. wherever you go with your wife you walk loose (meaning no holding hands or so). You can go where you want but you won't loose her out of your sight. Now, one day you go to the walking street and your wife grabs your hand and holds it. As you are so used to go where you want to go you walk from stand to stand and from the left side of the road to the right side, sometimes going faster and sometimes going slower, while you are still attached to your wife's hand. In other words, you kind-off drag your wife with you. No bad intention ... you love your wife dearly and vice versa.

Suddenly you feel a brief sharp pain in your hand there where your wife holds it. You scream "AUCH' and turn in shock towards your wife ... why does she hurt you? You only see her looking angry and saying sharply "NO", no further explanation.

Because the pain was strong enough and you are quite confused, you keep on walking in her close neighborhood for a while till you forget and drag your wife around again. Then again a brief sharp pain in your hand and wife says in a sharp tone of voice "NO". Slowly you may figure out that you won't feel this sharp pain if you keep on walking right next to her and well on her left side. But ONLY if your wife keeps on reinforcing this every time. When this only happens once a month you may not figure out what exactly she wants from you. You may even loose some trust in her as your wife has become unpredictable in your eyes now: 'you never know when she painfully squeezes your hand again'.

2. Now imagine this whole thing, but just before you leave the house your wife puts on one particular shawl. She only puts this on when you go to the Walking Street (although she never told you that in words and she never will tell you beforehand where you go before stepping in the car) and from experience you know that she will painfully squeeze your hand, but you never can tell exactly when as she never told you so.

What do you think you will feel when you see her putting on this shawl. Do you still want to go for a ride, and do you think you will keep on enjoying the walking street? (Think Pavlov)

Now, wouldn't the whole thing be much more pleasant and clear to you if your wife would tell you exactly where she wants you to walk, which than gets rewarded with something that you value high (and which is possible to give right there and then)? Wouldn't it be that you then become more willing in cooperating and no trust is harmed, plus that going for a ride in the car and going to the Walking Street remains enjoyable to you?

[bina]

i liked that last bit of examples nienke....

Sorry to Bina, but to me it doesn't make sense at all. A dog taken out more often and which has been taught properly doesn't need any short snap/release, as it will follow you nicely on a slack lead or in heel position (if you really trained your dog the heel-command. Most pet-dog owners don't really bother to go that far, they just want their dog to not pull on the lead and follow on slack lead when asked)

which is what i said but not as clearly: dogs should be able to be walked with the leash slack in hand cause if pulling all the time, the dog just pulls in opposite direction all the time. i see people walking with the leash pulled up high which must also hurt the shoulder of the walker and of course irrittates the 'walkee " ( the dog)... but if used properly (and they can be used properly,i do like training/chain collars ) they are useful. however, i also like working with the 'halti' and it really depends on the person and the dog, but as i said before, u as a pack leader have to know really what u want and then be consistent, and the dogs have to know what u want from them. they dont have telepathy and they dont think in 'human' terms.

actually a really fun trial game is to play dog/master: master has to know what he wants 'doggy' to do, but cant explain. has to give specific commands, but 'turn on the light' is not one of them. the requests have to be as if the 'dog' really is a dog, so the 'master' has to 'shape the behavior'... nienke can explain better... but it gives a good feel for what an animal feels like when given 'commands' that it doesnt really know or understand until shown in step by step actions(what nienke means when she says to tell the dog.)

bina

israel