Bangkok Bank

[JimGant]

I don't use a Schwab card and haven't to any great extent in the several years since I've had their accounts.

Nice try. And of course you haven't been using your Schwab card -- because, until recently, you were using your E*Trade card -- until they canceled their reimbursement of the network's 1% foreign transaction fee.

Schwab [and, until recently, E*Trade] intended their fee refunds -- both 1% and foreign ATM fees like the Thai banks 150 baht ATM fee -- to be used by tourists and periodic travelers -- not people making full time use of such refunds.

Let's try once more. You use the above rationale for your NOT paying the 150bt ATM fee with a card that *will* reimburse that fee -- because such a reimbursement is not meant as a regular fare, but only for the periodic traveler or businessman. (Thus, your push for Aeon machine usage.) Yet, without exception, you'll use a card that reimburses the networks's 1% foreign transaction fee? Which, as I previously pointed out, can amount to 250bt on a 25k withdrawal (vice the flat 150bt ATM owner's fee). How can you maintain, with a straight face, that the 1% foreign transaction reimbursement is any different than the 150bt reimbursement in your "tourist/periodic traveler" target market?

Obviously, to not be a hypocrite, you should advocate using your fee free ATM card in any ATM machine that's convenient - as long as you can be reimbursed the 150bt ATM fee.

Or, additionally, you can still lobby for Aeon only ATM usage. But, to sleep better, and avoid the hypocrite label, use your 3% Bank of America ATM card occasionally.

[jfchandler]

Jim, I don't want to argue with you...because I understand your approach, and I know you understand mine...

Simple fact: the 150 baht ATM fee charged by the Thai banks is a ripoff...totally unjustified and out-of-whack with other ATM fees. As such, I choose not to patronize banks, to the extent possible, that engage in such behavior. Others can do as they see fit.

And, for the record, E*Trade didn't "reimburse" the 1% network fees to its account holders. It simply never passed them along. E*Trade did and does reimburse the 150 baht Thai bank ATM fees... If the account holder uses a Thai bank ATM, the fee will be charged to their account and then E*Trade will refund it...

You're making a lot of assumptions about other people personal banking habits, frankly, without knowing the facts to base those assumptions on... Some cards may be better for ATM cash withdrawals. Some cards may have advantages for making purchases, as opposed to cash. A smart user will have both and use them accordingly.

I'll leave the BofA card use to you...

[JimGant]

And, for the record, E*Trade didn't "reimburse" the 1% network fees to its account holders. It simply never passed them along. E*Trade did and does reimburse the 150 baht Thai bank ATM fees..

Jeez. Semantics aside, E*Trade gives (or did) good deals to ex-pats. How you can (or did) take full advantage of one (the 1% not-passed-on-fee-that-functions-identically-to-a-reimbursement), while not the other (because it's for the occasional tourist) is a nonsensical argument.

[ianguygil]

And, for the record, E*Trade didn't "reimburse" the 1% network fees to its account holders. It simply never passed them along. E*Trade did and does reimburse the 150 baht Thai bank ATM fees..

Jeez. Semantics aside, E*Trade gives (or did) good deals to ex-pats. How you can (or did) take full advantage of one (the 1% not-passed-on-fee-that-functions-identically-to-a-reimbursement), while not the other (because it's for the occasional tourist) is a nonsensical argument.

Jim,

I am responding to you so I can stay on this thread, but I have no issue with what you have said.

I am sure you and others on this site understand that SCHWAB and other banks who refund fees do so because they have made a deliberate decision not to invest in a huge ATM infrastructure (although they have have a small network). For those banks who do invest is a hugely expensive undertaking. There is the cost of each ATM which is many thousands of dollars, the cost for the location where each ATM is installed which is often rented, the cost of the security infrastructure, physical and logical to protect the ATM, the cost of the ATM Switch to "run" the machines and process the transactions, and the cost of power and continually servicing the machines to make sure they have cash and deposit slips, and ink and are working properly (wow, long sentence, my English teacher would be horrified ).

These companies who do not have their own ATM network may change their terms once there is an increase the ATM fees imposed by those banks who have made this huge investment.

In the case of SCHWAB, the are not a "direct bank", they actually have a few hundred "branches" even if they call them something else, so they are not a "1 branch wonder" like some (all banks need at least 1 physical branch in the USA to get a banking license).

So nobody should rely on any of these "no fee" or "refund all fees" arrangements. They change based on the market conditions, and the costs imposed by the ATM newtorks. One of my best friends heads the PULSE network in the USA, and that market is definitely in flux. The ATM networks are becoming the core of many mobile commerce initiatives, and companies like DISCOVER are partnering with the major cell phone providers to process their payments. So the alliances and partnerships are sometimes bewildering.

So the point of this post is that SCHWAB make a business decision based on what they feel is cheapest for them, and with the use of cash dropping so quickly, partly because of debit cards (and party because people have less cash) you can expect some major changes in the future. SCHWAB has a huge disclaimer that this can all change at a moments notice, and everybody should respect that and expect change.

[jfchandler]

It's hard to predict the future, Ian... I don't know that you're any better at it than the rest of us...

But the nice thing about the U.S. banking market, unlike the Thai banking market, is there are a diversity of choices and accounts available owing to a much larger and more competitive marketplace... And Schwab isn't alone in refunding or absorbing ATM and/or foreign currency fees...

They've had their policy in effect for a long time... And even should they change it at any point in the future, there certainly are other banks and CUs that offer accounts with similar features... Part of the "market conditions" issue you mention below, at least in the U.S., is competition and offering accounts with features that people want.

As for Schwab's approach, people can take a cue from how they handled their 2% cash back on all purchases VISA card, which was rated the best credit card deal in the U.S. When they decided they needed to change that after some years, they stopped offering that account to new customers, but kept the benefit intact for existing cardholders....

So nobody should rely on any of these "no fee" or "refund all fees" arrangements. They change based on the market conditions, and the costs imposed by the ATM newtorks.

SCHWAB has a huge disclaimer that this can all change at a moments notice, and everybody should respect that and expect change.

[jfchandler]

By the way Ian, since I assume you do know something at least about Bangkok Bank's procedures....

Does BKK Bank really charge its own account holders a 2.5% foreign currency fee when they use their B1st Visa debit cards to either make purchases or withdraw cash abroad (outside Thailand)???

*When making payments or withdrawing cash overseas with your Be1st Visa Debit card, the amounts will be converted to Thai Baht, based on Visa's normal exchange rates. A conversion charge will be added, but will not exceed 2.5% of the exchange rate applied.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Be1st%20and%20ATM%20Cards/Be1st%20Card/Pages/default.aspx

[ianguygil]

By the way Ian, since I assume you do know something at least about Bangkok Bank's procedures....

Does BKK Bank really charge its own account holders a 2.5% foreign currency fee when they use their B1st Visa debit cards to either make purchases or withdraw cash abroad (outside Thailand)???

*When making payments or withdrawing cash overseas with your Be1st Visa Debit card, the amounts will be converted to Thai Baht, based on Visa's normal exchange rates. A conversion charge will be added, but will not exceed 2.5% of the exchange rate applied.

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

John

Thank you for your interest in Bangkok Bank

I only spend my own time to answer questions for reasonable people.

For product information, please contact your local branch or call our Contact Center on 1333. They can answer your questions. Thanks

[jfchandler]

Ohh Ian.. you've cut me to the quick!!!

I guess you really only want to spend your time here telling people how they can give their hard earned money to your employer...instead of actually saving it for their own use...

By the way Ian, since I assume you do know something at least about Bangkok Bank's procedures....

Does BKK Bank really charge its own account holders a 2.5% foreign currency fee when they use their B1st Visa debit cards to either make purchases or withdraw cash abroad (outside Thailand)???

*When making payments or withdrawing cash overseas with your Be1st Visa Debit card, the amounts will be converted to Thai Baht, based on Visa's normal exchange rates. A conversion charge will be added, but will not exceed 2.5% of the exchange rate applied.

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

John

Thank you for your interest in Bangkok Bank

I only spend my own time to answer questions for reasonable people.

For product information, please contact your local branch or call our Contact Center on 1333. They can answer your questions. Thanks

[ianguygil]

Ohh Ian.. you've cut me to the quick!!!

I guess you really only want to spend your time here telling people how they can give their hard earned money to your employer...instead of actually saving it for their own use...

By the way Ian, since I assume you do know something at least about Bangkok Bank's procedures....

Does BKK Bank really charge its own account holders a 2.5% foreign currency fee when they use their B1st Visa debit cards to either make purchases or withdraw cash abroad (outside Thailand)???

*When making payments or withdrawing cash overseas with your Be1st Visa Debit card, the amounts will be converted to Thai Baht, based on Visa's normal exchange rates. A conversion charge will be added, but will not exceed 2.5% of the exchange rate applied.

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

John

Thank you for your interest in Bangkok Bank

I only spend my own time to answer questions for reasonable people.

For product information, please contact your local branch or call our Contact Center on 1333. They can answer your questions. Thanks

No, not at all.

I am happy to spend my time answering questions and helping with problems where I can. It is fine if we do not come out ahead in all comparisons. That is definitely not my point.

But I will not spend time answering people on some kind of religious campaign as has been pointed out about you by other members of this thread. Whatever I say you bend it around to the bad banker routine, and to your narrow view of the world.

So I wish you the best in living your life on this and so many other forums. And in expressing your frustrations at life in general on these.

I honestly have work I need to do, and I will definitely not respond directly in future to your inane and emotional rants. But your behavior will also not force me off the thread.

Enjoy standing in line wherever you go :jap:

[jfchandler]

Just correcting your abundant errors about the world of banking...when you so often spout them into this forum....

[ianguygil]

Posted 2010-07-30 01:04

Let me try to clarify so I do not use "banker speak"

A customer of UK Bank A whose debit card is tied to the VISA network goes to Thai Bank B and withdraws 20,000 THB from their ATM. Thai Bank B adds 150 THB to the total (which is now 20,150 THB) and debits the amount via the VISA network from UK Bank A at the prevailing rate for the day which for simplicity we will say is 50 THB = 1 GBP.

UK Bank A will debit 403 GPB (20,150/50) plus their charges. If we assume they charge 2% plus 2 GBP (I have no idea of the charges in the UK, I know HALIFAX did not used to apply charges in the other direction). So the total debit in GBP would be 403+8.06+2, giving 413.06. So the "effective" exchange rate to the customer is 20,000 (what they got in THB) / 413.06 = 48.42, less than the FX rate provided by VISA which is 50.

If a customer of UK Bank C went to the same Thai Bank B, did the same transaction, but UK Bank C did not levy charges, they would actually get an effective exchange rate of 49.63 (rounded) which is 20,000/403, but the actual FX rate used is still 50 for both banks. The difference in the effective exchange rate is due to charges which are set by each bank

In either case, Thai Bank B would get the same amount from UK Bank A and UK Bank B and this is based on the VISA FX rate in effect

I hope this makes sense. And I hope this helps. I rushed to do this as I am in a meeting listening. So please excuse any errors.

Good luck.

This post has been edited by ianguygil: 2010-07-30 01:20

Meanwhile, for the rest of us back on Planet Earth..........................

I posted the above as part of a thread in July when I was in California on a business trip. I hope this explains better how both fees (set by each bank) and the FX rate (set by the network) affect the cost of the THB you receive, and the amount of the debit you will see on your account in your home country.

While this example applies to the UK, the same calculations can apply to the USA, OZ, Canada etc.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask questions or point out errors. As it said I was writing this while in a meeting on my laptop

Good luck,.

Ian

http://www.thaivisa....-on-28-july-10/

[jfchandler]

Since there's been a lot of discussion about the 150 baht foreign card ATM fee charged by Thai banks including Bangkok Bank, I thought it would be interesting to see how the Thai banks treat their own account holders when they travel outside Thailand...

Trying to get a straight answer out of BKK Bank's telephone customer service was kind of like pulling teeth, and I can't say I'm entirely confident in the answers I received from the rep, whom I must say was very polite, since they tended to change in detail a bit with every subsequent telling...

But for holders of BKK Bank's Be1st Visa debit card, it appears that Bangkok Bank charges a flat 100 baht fee on all cash ATM withdrawals made outside Thailand. It doesn't say that on the bank's Be1st card web page, but it does say so on the bank's fees web page, and the CSR confirmed the 100 baht per withdrawal fee.

And then, in addition to the 100 baht flat fee per ATM withdrawal, it appears that BKK Bank and/or the VISA card network take another cut "not exceeding" 2.5% per transaction via a reduced exchange rate. According to the CSR, the up to 2.5% surcharge would apply to both foreign ATM withdrawals and foreign purchases using the Be1st card. No flat transaction fee on foreign purchases made with the card.

I tried repeatedly to get the CSR to clarify the "not exceeding" language, as in, did that mean they (BKKB and/or VISA) are applying a 2.5% surcharge exactly, or some lesser amount. After an off-line call to the bank's credit and debit cards department at my request, the CSR came back and said he couldn't be any more specific than "not exceeding" 2.5%.

So, at 100 baht flat fee plus up to 2.5% foreign currency conversion surcharge for ATM withdrawals made abroad, it nice to see the bank is at least treating its own customers in comparable fashion to the way it treats tourists and others.

That said, it's hardly a card I'd want to be using too much when traveling outside of Thailand...

[jfchandler]

Hmm... I'm beginning to think this may be another situation where the tremendous "competition" in the Thai banking market comes to the fore...

In checking with Siam Commercial Bank re their Master Card-logo debit card, their web site indicates that their card likewise has a 100 baht fee for foreign country ATM withdrawals combined with an up to 2.5% foreign currency conversion surcharge -- exactly the same as BKK Bank. And their CSR confirmed the same 2.5% fee, but not the flat fee, would apply to foreign purchases. (The SCB CSR I was speaking with simply said it was a 2.5% fee... not "up to".

Interestingly, SCB also appears to have exactly the same debit card issuance and annual card fees as BKK Bank -- 100 baht on issuance and then 200 baht annual fee. I can't say I ever remember any of the U.S. banks I've dealt with thru the years charging any fee to obtain or retain an ATM card.

Somewhat humorously for me, when we were done talking, and I had used the example of wanting to use the SCB card while staying in the U.S., the CSR advised me that maybe that wasn't the best/smartest approach, and that perhaps I should consider traveler's cheques instead...

[pkrv]

John to be honest all of your comments (and BTW BBL's international charges were of interest to me) simply reinforce my own position.

It is now prudent to operate in your own local currency/currencies - This comment is IMO a 'HEALTHY' comment as I now view my Thai (BBL) THB account, as one of my 'local' currencies.

For me personally I currently have two local currencies.

UK - I have SMILE debit/cash point cards no charge (see conditions*) , Platinum AMEX which is my primary credit card (I get around 1.5% cash back on it) and a white i24 Card from Barclay card giving around 1% cash back that used to be a great card for overseas travel.

* And BTW if you stick your UK cash point card into a petrol station or pub or indeed any other place other than a bank's network cash point dispenser you incur a £1.50 charge regardless of amount withdrawn (given I don't use that strategy I think that charge is correct last time I looked).

Thailand - A BBL international Cash point/debit card and separate cash point card - no charge operating in my own sector (which is Bangkok), though it appears that there are three exceptions to this rule - if operating (for me) outside of Bangkok but within Thailand - per month. Edit - eek I got that wrong there is an annual fee for the internationl cards of 200 THB each - end edit

For me personally there has been a concept of integration as a part of my thought process. Though my language skills are not great even though I can say in Thai I am going to go out to shoot the rabbit, I don't think that was one of the expressions I was meant to have picked up first…..

Yes IN GLOBAL TERMS using your 'home international cards' in 'foreign countries' is no longer a good idea. IMO try to consolidate and operate locally, wherever 'local' happens to be.

For example I got hit by UK cashpoint withdrwal fees in Istambul - err no local account there.

[JimGant]

Yes IN GLOBAL TERMS using your 'home international cards' in 'foreign countries' is no longer a good idea. IMO try to consolidate and operate locally, wherever 'local' happens to be.

Surprised JFC hasn't jumped in....maybe he's at dinner, maybe just too tired of repeating himself...

But, at least for Americans, some of our home cards -- like Schwab -- still give the best deal, because they absorb the fees associated with international transactions, plus get the best exchange rate due to their network's size and clout. And everyone reading this is probably getting tired of hearing it.

My disagreement with JFC is with his insistence to 'bend over backwards' to find an Aeon machine. That flies in the face of maximizing value in getting your baht over here (highly touted by JFC), namely, in wasting gas and time to avoid a 150bt ATM fee -- which is reimbursable anyway.

'Nuf said on all that. And, even tho' I can read the numbers -- and am a retired licensed CPA -- I still live on ACHed money to my BB account, and use their ATM card -- even tho' JFC keeps reminding me (legitimately) I'm losing some money. I guess reading the daily stock reports on my investments, or FX reports, what I'm losing in obtaining baht over here gets lost in the shadow.

And, as I said on another thread here today, I finally concluded positively that, due to my hard living, and excellent investments, my money will outlive me. That information, which now dictates flying at least business class, certainly precludes any Aeon machine in my future..

[jfchandler]

Thanks Jim...But, I don't see any need to repeat myself, when you chime into to agree with me and reinforce the same facts... Thanks for repeating my advice and saving me the trouble.

Surprised JFC hasn't jumped in....maybe he's at dinner, maybe just too tired of repeating himself...

But, at least for Americans, some of our home cards -- like Schwab -- still give the best deal, because they absorb the fees associated with international transactions, plus get the best exchange rate due to their network's size and clout.

As for BKK Bank and AEON ATMs, I have no beef if you want to use BKK Bank international transfers, or if anyone else wants to use Thai ATMs and pay the 150 baht ripoff fee. I've always said and advised here, people should do what works best for them..and at least know what other options may be available...and not just stick their heads in the sand.

And it may not just be Americans, but Brits too, that can benefit from the no-fee card approach, now that the UK's Metro Bank likewise is offering a checking account and bank card with no foreign currency fees.

You know that, strictly on exchange rate and fees, you could do somewhat better if you used a U.S. no fee ATM card combined with an AEON ATM vs. the BKK Bank transfers... But maybe it's not convenient or efficient for you, or you're just plain rich ... No problem...

In my case, I have multitudes of choices, and easy choices... So I don't mind making a specific plan to use an AEON ATM as opposed to a closer Thai bank one, because the travel/inconvenience factors for me, and many others I suspect, are miniscule and insignificant.

Because I consider the 150 baht Thai ATMs fee a blatant ripoff, my view is that it's better, other factors being reasonably equal, to use an AEON ATM (and avoid the fee) vs. using a Thai ATM with a U.S. account that pays/refunds the 150 baht fee. But that is my philosophical position given how I view the Thai banks' 150 baht fee. There's not really any financial difference to the using cardholder, between the two methods.

[pkrv]

and am a retired licensed CPA -- I still live on ACHed money to my BB account, and use their ATM card -- even tho' JFC keeps reminding me (legitimately) I'm losing some money. I guess reading the daily stock reports on my investments, or FX reports, what I'm losing in obtaining baht over here gets lost in the shadow.

Jim - An amusing set of thoughts - Yes the FX side is an entirely different matter, not much I can do about GBP (it's down the toilet) but on a welcome note THB is doing well. I have hedged (my bets).

And indeed FX movements are critical to consider for any Expat/Farang especially over the long term.

[ianguygil]

and am a retired licensed CPA -- I still live on ACHed money to my BB account, and use their ATM card -- even tho' JFC keeps reminding me (legitimately) I'm losing some money. I guess reading the daily stock reports on my investments, or FX reports, what I'm losing in obtaining baht over here gets lost in the shadow.

Jim - An amusing set of thoughts - Yes the FX side is an entirely different matter, not much I can do about GBP (it's down the toilet) but on a welcome note THB is doing well. I have hedged (my bets).

And indeed FX movements are critical to consider for any Expat/Farang especially over the long term.

Philip,

As we have discussed, yours is a most reasonable approach. While I understand that many may not have the cash flow to do it, moving funds periodically and using the local accounts in each country is definitely the approach I would recommend for somebody in your situation.

I am happy it was easy to find the charges on our website bangkokbank.com (while I have not actually checked to see if the references were correct). We strive to make the site easy to use, and easy to search in both English and Thai. As with any responsible bank we ensure our fees and conditions are explained to customers when they apply for the products, and are easy to find on the website, or in our branches. We welcome any recommendations on how we can improve our services and website. And you have already provided some valuable input on the way our UK services are worded. I am still working with the group to improve that description.

[jfchandler]

Considering your comment below, Ian, I'd suggest that you add some reference on your bank's Be1st Card web page about the fact that a 100 baht fee is charged by the bank anytime the card is used outside of Thailand for ATM cash withdrawals.

It seems rather strange to appropriately disclose on the web page that up to a 2.5% percent foreign currency fee will be charged when using the card outside Thailand, and even to mention the 100 baht card issuance fee and 200 baht annual fee, but then to make no mention on the same page of the card's 100 baht per international ATM withdrawal fee.

The card's web page mentions it can be used to withdraw cash worldwide. But the information about the card's 100 baht fee per international ATM withdrawal is, for lack of a better word, hidden toward the bottom of a long and entirely different web page relating to all the different fees charged by the bank.

As a "responsible bank," I'm sure correcting incomplete disclosures like that would be something of concern to you and your colleagues. And I'm certainly glad you welcome any recommendations on how you can improve your service and website.

As with any responsible bank we ensure our fees and conditions are explained to customers when they apply for the products, and are easy to find on the website, or in our branches. We welcome any recommendations on how we can improve our services and website.

[pkrv]

Hi guys,

I was sort of pondering - and let’s not talk credit cards for the moment, just debit cards because I can compare apples with apples, and additionally credit cards may become a bit of a dodo for me in the future - as why bother if you pay them off every month anyway.

I suddenly realised that actually I need to reconsider my 'two local cards'. My UK smile card and my Thai BBL card.

The next trip to Bangkok is probably going to include a short hop/excursion to Hong Kong.

I am not exactly sure which direct debit card to use in Hong Kong.

Have any expat/Farangs used their BBL cards in earnest across the globe and what are the consequences - acceptability, airlines, rates etc...

[pkrv]

I can actually add a bit more - Message from SMILE

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your travel plans, I've made a note of this on your card so that our Fraud Prevention team are aware.

Please note that the £250 daily cash limit still applies to ATM withdrawals and this limit will vary with exchange rates.

For using your card to buy things in shops while you're overseas, there's a 2.75% commission charge on every purchase. This is for converting the foreign amount into pounds and is included in the total transaction when it shows on your statement.

When you use your card to buy currency or travellers cheques or to draw money from a cash machine abroad, as well as the 2.75% charge you'll also be charged a Visa fee.

- Debit cards 2.0% (minimum £2.00)

- Credit cards 3.0% (minimum £3.00)

This charge will show separately on your statement as 'Visa Charge'.

For more information about these charges, please see the credit card tariff and the terms and conditions online

[ianguygil]

Hi guys,

I was sort of pondering - and let's not talk credit cards for the moment, just debit cards because I can compare apples with apples, and additionally credit cards may become a bit of a dodo for me in the future - as why bother if you pay them off every month anyway.

I suddenly realised that actually I need to reconsider my 'two local cards'. My UK smile card and my Thai BBL card.

The next trip to Bangkok is probably going to include a short hop/excursion to Hong Kong.

I am not exactly sure which direct debit card to use in Hong Kong.

Have any expat/Farangs used their BBL cards in earnest across the globe and what are the consequences - acceptability, airlines, rates etc...

Philip,

i know you have ruled out the discussion of credit cards, but I need to include them in this answer. I never use a debit card when traveling. Not because of the charges. I use a credit card and pay it off every month in full. It gives me certain protections when purchasing goods or services over and above other products. As I travel frequently (monthly) and to a wide range of countries, I have found this to be the best approach. While I understand this involves a percentage charge, given the service provided and the large amount of travel I do, I find it to be a reasonable charge. Everybody should keep it in perspective. You normally pay 50% or 100% markups for goods or services (shops, restaurants). 2.5% - 3% is not that bad for moving money around the world, and the protections which come with many high end credit cards.

My approach is to pick up cash when I get to Suvarnabhumi for the target country (I always have Euro, Yen, USD and GBP in my travel wallet as these are the most frequently used currencies for me). I get enough for things like taxi, pubs, tips and a cushion "just in case". Then I use credit cards for everything I can. I do end up with little envelopes of various weird currencies from business trips (Malaysian Ringit, Lao Kip, Indo Rupiah, Vietnam Dong, Swedish Kronor (spelling?) but in general these are places I will visit again.

So that's my approach. I understand I may travel on business much more than most and I am based here. But I find this works pretty seamlessly for me.

BTW, I always keep 50 GBP, 100 USD, 10,000 JPY and 100 EUR in my wallet in a small pocket for the "shit hits the fan" moments. One such happened to me in Manila when the Manila Penninsula hotel limo broke down in a non-savory part of town. And I needed to get out of there. FAST, all dressed up in my banker suit

[jfchandler]

Hello PKRV, Re your question, sounds like you ought to give some consideration to looking for a new, different debit card...

The SMILE card you mention above is going to hit you for almost 5%!!! when used abroad. And the BKK Bank Be1st card is going to hit you for 2.5% or so for purchases and cash withdrawals, plus another 100 baht flat fee for any ATM withdrawal outside Thailand, as I noted in my post a few items earlier in this thread.

Just by way of comparison, when us Yanks travel abroad, we can use the debit cards (or credit cards also) from Capital One Bank, Schwab Bank and others that charge No foreign currency surcharge and no ATM fees worldwide, plus no annual fee to have and keep them.... I realize, of course, those same options may not be available to Brits, although Metro Bank in London and their no foreign currency charge debit card would be an alternative.

When I travel, I always find that I end up using both cards and cash... cards for the bigger expenses like airline tickets, hotel bills and such. And then cash for the smaller things like taxis and transport, small eateries, tips, etc. With international airline tickets priced the way they are these days, especially if you personally are paying vs. an employer, an extra 3% tacked on is hardly an insignificant charge for using a Thai debit card outside Thailand.

I have also read here on TV of some members reporting problems with trying to make online purchases outside Thailand using their Thai bank debit cards.... but I've never tried that myself for obvious reasons (2.5% bank surcharge). There was some discussion that some retailers in the West consider Thailand to be an area for card fraud, and as a result, will not accept or deny purchases made from local cards there. I don't have any personal experience on that score, as I said.

Lastly, keep in mind how most banks figure the foreign currency surcharges. If I ever used a card that had them (which I don't), I could be sitting at home in the U.S.and make an online purchase of a ticket from an airline based outside the U.S., and the bank likely would assess the foreign currency charge... That's because even though I'm at home in the U.S., the payee vendor is outside my home country, so the banks consider it a cross-border transaction. Gotta be mindful of such things.

PS - I hope you have a good trip, and hope you're NOT paying 50-100% markup for the goods and services you use while traveling... Now I know why the Thai banks are charging 150 baht ATM fees back in Thailand...

[ianguygil]

I can actually add a bit more - Message from SMILE

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your travel plans, I've made a note of this on your card so that our Fraud Prevention team are aware.

Please note that the £250 daily cash limit still applies to ATM withdrawals and this limit will vary with exchange rates.

For using your card to buy things in shops while you're overseas, there's a 2.75% commission charge on every purchase. This is for converting the foreign amount into pounds and is included in the total transaction when it shows on your statement.

When you use your card to buy currency or travellers cheques or to draw money from a cash machine abroad, as well as the 2.75% charge you'll also be charged a Visa fee.

- Debit cards 2.0% (minimum £2.00)

- Credit cards 3.0% (minimum £3.00)

This charge will show separately on your statement as 'Visa Charge'.

For more information about these charges, please see the credit card tariff and the terms and conditions online

Philip,

One key item I forgot to mention is why banks charge such fees. There is virtually no "spread" on a credit card or debit card transaction. So the banks are in effect doing the transactions for free if they charge no percentage. For all other FX there is a "spread", as a old REUTERS guy like you knows too well. So the fee gives the spread. I covered the whole FX thing in a separate thread a while ago:

http://www.thaivisa....68#entry3880468

Also, the markups I quoted for stores and restaurants of 50% - 100% was on the low side. In the west it is even more, except for sales. My friend here has stores selling imported Italian clothes in Thailand. Markup is a standard 300%+. That is how they can give a discount of 30% to their "best" customers and stil make a profit, as the rent on many stores in the high end malls are 1 million Baht and up per month (many like EMPORIUM require 20 year leases). Watches, perfume, high end goods all command 200% to 500%. Such is life....

I hope this makes sense. Please just view it as the "spread". Just as if you were going to an FX booth.

Ian

[jfchandler]

By the way, since some of us are talking about using Thai bank credit cards.... I noticed the other day in browsing the Bangkok Bank web site... 20% percent standard APR interest rate on their credit cards!!!! And not just BKKB, but all the others as well, from looking at their web sites.

Now, if your company is paying the bill or you're paying the balance every month, the APR doesn't matter. But when compared to using any of the better U.S. credit cards, those kinds of rates are pretty close to robbery...

In checking "my friend" AEON's Thailand website, it says their cards also carry a 20% interest rate. Same for Siam Commercial. Same for Kasikorn. So I assume same for all the others...

This must be another of those areas where the great "competition" in the Thai banking sector is doing wonders to benefit Thai consumers...

By comparison, I just recently had one of the largest U.S. banks offer me (and others, of course) 0% interest on all purchases made anytime through next spring (no fees or catches)... There are other U.S. cards that have ongoing standard APR's of 7.99% or 9.99%... and no foreign currency fees, no joining fees, no annual renewal fees... and so on...

I must admit, I'm baffled by some things relating to the Thai credit card market:

--How can the Thai banks continue charging 20% interest rate on credit cards, when the inter-bank rates have fallen to a couple of percent? And who decided 20% is an appropriate credit card rate to charge across the country?

--Why are the Thai banks unwilling to issue credit cards to longstay retirees with plenty of income (but no work permit or job), when they seem perfectly happy to issue cards to Thais who have little income and are already loaded down with debt?

In looking at the AEON web site and those of other Thai banks, they offer credit cards with as little monthly income as 15,000 baht. Anyone want to hazard a guess on what portion of farang retirees have greater than 15,000 baht per month income?

With Thai bank credit card interest rates at 20%, it really makes me wonder what the default and delinquency rates are in the Thai credit card industry... Either that, or, some financiers are making one H of a lot of money...

[pkrv]

Thanks for the thougts guys

Yes my i24 credit card is my primary UK credit card mechanism for global travel even in Thailand.

There is an annual fee of 275 GBP but it does have other advantages amongst which AMEX is not accepted everywhere!

Yes I did also forget about some of the behind the scenes protection a credit card offers that a debit card does not, especially if things go wrong with a purchase.

Getting cash abroad from a UK perspective (except for me THB) with the demise of Nationwide - is another issue. I certainly will not be using my i24 card for that purpose. And given I pay it off every month, no I do not get hit for big fees! Getting cash well.... It is probably going to be the same as you Ian the airport etc and exchanging cash for cash.

Taken directly from the site

http://www.barclayca...ta/special.html

The Barclaycard i24 concierge service.

You can call on the concierge service at any time of the day or night, wherever you are in the world. Whether it's to book a flight or arrange a dinner party, help with tying your bow tie or negotiating a little local language difficulty, the range of services is simply staggering. And, however often you take advantage, it won't cost you a penny extra.

A high credit limit.

With a credit limit starting at £7,500 which could rise as high as £25,000, your Barclaycard i24 card puts you in charge of what you spend and how you spend it.

Access to airport executive lounges.

Whether you're a frequent flyer or an occasional traveller, it's good to get away from the crowds. Your Priority Pass gives you access to over 500 executive lounges in 275 cities worldwide, with phones, fax, internet and, sometimes, conference facilities.

1% cashback on every purchase.

Barclaycard i24 gives you 1% cashback on everything you buy with your card. There's no limit - you'll carry on earning it, regardless of how much you spend. View cashback award rules.

Travel insurance for you and your family.

There's no need to shop around for travel insurance before you go away. Year-round travel insurance for your entire family is one of the many benefits of Barclaycard i24. It even covers you for many physical sports, including skiing and scuba-diving.

Commission-free foreign exchange.

Barclaycard i24 doesn't charge you when you make purchases abroad. You'll even continue to earn cashback on your spend wherever you go in the world.

Typical 57.8% APR (variable)

[jfchandler]

WOW, PKRV.... that's an interesting card... and it seems you're paying dearly for its privileges....

275 pounds UK per year fee??? And for the life of me, I can't figure their APR explanation....

Typical 57.8% APR (variable)

And then...

The APR in the agreement will be 22.0% APR. None of this changes the actual interest rate that applies to your Barclaycard i24 card, which is 13.9% for purchases.

Can you translate that into American English???

So, they're saying they give you 1% cash back on all purchases, and don't charge any foreign currency surcharges when traveling abroad? That, plus airline lounge privileges??? Hmmm.....

These days, the typical no-fee U.S. VISA or MC's, Platinum level, include the concierge service, travel accident insurance, extended purchase warranties, and typically rental car collision coverage... Most have some kind of points rewards program, and some have actual cash back... Airport lounge privileges usually only come with cards carrying significant annual fee charges.

If the Barclay card does what it appears to do, why would you be considering using your Thai bank debit card or the UK ones with significant foreign currency charges for your travel??

PS - I just noticed you had commented in an early post...

a white i24 Card from Barclay card giving around 1% cash back that used to be a great card for overseas travel.

Used to be...because???

[ianguygil]

Thanks for the thougts guys

Yes my i24 credit card is my primary UK credit card mechanism for global travel even in Thailand.

There is an annual fee of 275 GBP but it does have other advantages amongst which AMEX is not accepted everywhere!

Yes I did also forget about some of the behind the scenes protection a credit card offers that a debit card does not, especially if things go wrong with a purchase.

Getting cash abroad from a UK perspective (except for me THB) with the demise of Nationwide - is another issue. I certainly will not be using my i24 card for that purpose. And given I pay it off every month, no I do not get hit for big fees!

Taken directly from the site

http://www.barclayca...ta/special.html

I

The Barclaycard i24 concierge service.

You can call on the concierge service at any time of the day or night, wherever you are in the world. Whether it's to book a flight or arrange a dinner party, help with tying your bow tie or negotiating a little local language difficulty, the range of services is simply staggering. And, however often you take advantage, it won't cost you a penny extra.

A high credit limit.

With a credit limit starting at £7,500 which could rise as high as £25,000, your Barclaycard i24 card puts you in charge of what you spend and how you spend it.

Access to airport executive lounges.

Whether you're a frequent flyer or an occasional traveller, it's good to get away from the crowds. Your Priority Pass gives you access to over 500 executive lounges in 275 cities worldwide, with phones, fax, internet and, sometimes, conference facilities.

1% cashback on every purchase.

Barclaycard i24 gives you 1% cashback on everything you buy with your card. There's no limit - you'll carry on earning it, regardless of how much you spend. View cashback award rules.

Travel insurance for you and your family.

There's no need to shop around for travel insurance before you go away. Year-round travel insurance for your entire family is one of the many benefits of Barclaycard i24. It even covers you for many physical sports, including skiing and scuba-diving.

Commission-free foreign exchange.

Barclaycard i24 doesn't charge you when you make purchases abroad. You'll even continue to earn cashback on your spend wherever you go in the world.

Typical 57.8% APR (variable)

I had 3 shirts and a sports jacket from a Canali store in San Francisco stolen from my bags at Suvarnabhumi. They were there when I checked in and everybody agreed the bag was ok when it arrived. We were in first, they take the bags for you on TG. When I got home all 4 items were stolen. My credit card, which I used to buy them, paid me back for all of them. But not until after I had met with the local police at the airport (which took time, a lot of time).

So using credit cards has had huge protections for me. Not to forget the discounts and special deals associated with some cards at certain nice hotel chains, the loyalty programs etc. They more than pay for the fees.

[mark5335]

And who decided 20% is an appropriate credit card rate to charge across the country?

With Thai bank credit card interest rates at 20%, it really makes me wonder what the default and delinquency rates are in the Thai credit card industry... Either that, or, some financiers are making one H of a lot of money...

FYI - the Bank of Thailand (central bank) sets the max.APR which banks may charage for c/card balances.

In some other South East Asian countries the APR is comparable to that of Thailand. If the local banks made more effective use of credit bureau scorecards they may be able to charge a lower the APR for better quality customers, as has happened in more developed economies (what's referred to as risk-adjusted pricing).

Data I reviewed 2 years ago for a major Thai department store credit card showed delinquency (based on account which are more than 30 days past due) then running at 5%.

It is true that the credit card business can be very profitable to banks who under this business well and have strong data analystics capabilities.

The higher risk customers, such as those on smaller incomes, tend to have more revolving card balances (i.e., they just pay the min. mthly payment each month), but these are generally the most profitable customer segment for banks. The min. income of 15,000 baht p/mth is also regulated by the BOT.

[jfchandler]

Thanks Mark... My questions above were a bit rhetorical, but you provided the factual answers I had only assumed to be the case...

The 5% delinquency rate for a major Thai department store card is interesting.. But I'm guessing the accountholder profile in that instance is not likely to be the same as the broader mass credit card market...

To me, credit cards are just another example of no competition, no innovation, and consumers suffering as a result in the regulated Thai banking industry.

You mentioned that the BOT sets the MAXIMUM interest rate allowed. But when I looked at the different major banks, they all seem to be exactly at the max... I didn't find a single one offering a lower rate or any kind of Thai credit card option with a lower rate option... If there are any out there, I hope someone would point them out.

I wonder how many Thai credit card users realize that the Thai banks are paying a couple percent interest on the money they use, and then turning around and charging their customers 20%.... And yet, banks in the U.S. and elsewhere can profitably offer APR rates in the single digits... If I understood that, I'd be pissed.