Thaksin's Arrival In Cambodia Crushes Hope

[way2muchcoffee]

I couldn't help but think on seeing the picture of Hun Sen and Thaksin embracing that either wouldn't hesitate to knife the other in the back if it suited their purposes.

My wife's relatives live along the Cambodian border in Sa Kaeo and Buriram. Although of Khmer stock they are united in their detestation of Cambodians and tell me that they, the Cambodians, frequently cross the border to steal cattle, motor bikes and just about anything not locked up. The intruders are not averse to offering violence to anybody who gets in their way, so they say.

[paragraph omitted]

Given these insights I have to think that Thaksin's venture into Cambodia will not go down too well with those residing in those parts of Isan in proximity to the border.

It might depend on the ethnic background of the families in question. Many Thai people from Sa Kaeo, Buriram, Surin, Sisaket, Trat, and Ubon have Khmer ethnicity. Many people living in these areas do not.

[TAWP]

I have no time for Thaksin but Abhisit is getting everything that he deserves. He is a Usurper and that always means your walking on thin ice. If an election is held, Thaksin and his crew will do what they always do to Abhisit. Thrash him to the point of humiliaton.

You mean like in the last election when they got pretty much the same ratio of votes and seats?

Facts and fiction is not the same thing.

[TAWP]

It looks like Sri Suan Plaza's logo in Chiang Mai, alright?

You sound like the morons back home that complained in the newspaper about furniture store selling 'nazi carpets'...very expensive carpets imported from India...

Never mind that this cross is in the other direction and the meaning of it...

For your ref:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...zi_Swastika.svg

Edited November 11, 2009 by TAWP

[p_brownstone]

I am intrigued by the use of the word “should” in the final paragraph of the “Siamese Spat” article.

Another alternative which is never mentioned publicly.

Patrick

[h90]

It looks like Sri Suan Plaza's logo in Chiang Mai, alright?

You sound like the morons back home that complained in the newspaper about furniture store selling 'nazi carpets'...very expensive carpets imported from India...

Never mind that this cross is in the other direction and the meaning of it...

For your ref:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...zi_Swastika.svg

in Hindu both directions exist and a couple of modifications of it. That symbol is thousands of years old and several time local modified

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It looks like Sri Suan Plaza's logo in Chiang Mai, alright?

You sound like the morons back home that complained in the newspaper about furniture store selling 'nazi carpets'...very expensive carpets imported from India...

Never mind that this cross is in the other direction and the meaning of it...

For your ref:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...zi_Swastika.svg

I know all that. The only issue I would see with it being on a carpet is that you'd step on it, which you wouldn't do in Thailand. Still, for a political organization with extreme nationalist and feudal tendencies it looks a little inappropriate. Or maybe appropriate, I don't know. It's probably been discussed on this forum before. The Swastika topic is one of those forum ever-greens, along with Sin Sod, and the meaning of the word Farang.

Edited November 11, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[toybits]

Logo looks like a Swastika - a Nazi symbol... hmmmm...

visit coincides with rumour of 'war room' in Phnom Penn

["New Politics Party" logo; I did NOT make this up!

[jayboy]

Doesn't change the fact that Thaksin is arguably the most dangerous man in Thai history.

What exactly do you mean by "dangerous" in this context?

I'm not drawing a parallel but just an example to clarify why I ask. Lech Walesa was the most "dangerous" man in post war Polish history.Why? Because he set in motion a series of events which unseated a corrupt and brutal communist dictatorship.

So how exactly is Thaksin "dangerous"?

[321niti123]

visit coincides with rumour of 'war room' in Phnom Penn

I thought rumour mongering was frowned upon legally in this country.. Maybe only when it applies to the other side.

whose presence in Phnom Penh coincided with earlier rumours that Thaksin's innermost circle was setting up a "war room" in the Cambodian capital amid concerns that

Nice; a 'rumour' competely without source or fact. I'd flunk doing that even in a high school article assignment.

Gotta love the way The Nation completely flips things around, taking the 'bad relationhip with Cambodia' as a fact of life, and not something completely the Thai government's doing in recent times. Then they jump to saying that Cambodia is now somehow the enemy, meaning Thaksin is a traitor. Hello, Cambodia and Thailand had excellent relationships until very recently, as they should; they have a lot more in common than divides them, and are natural trade partners.

This nationlist BS initially banged up by PAD is getting to the Nation's head it seems. Go to war already why don't you.

PAD's New Politics.. nationalist claptrap and wanting war.. Hmmm..

["New Politics Party" logo; I did NOT make this up! (Linked from wikipedia.org)

I suggest you read up on history a little especially between traditonal rivals Cambodia and Thailand. You may need to throw Vietnam in there for insight too into the Cambodian position particularly when it concerns Hun Sens close relationship with that traditonal Cambodian rival too and how the balancing of two more powerful rivals on opposite borders affects policy. I ahve been in Thailand for a couple of decades and in that period cannot remember Thailand and Cambodia ever having an excellent relationship. At times it has been worse than now KR days and Embassy burning and at times better but never excellent. But I would suggest you need to look back a lot further than just the last couple of decades.

I agree, if look look back really far you will see that over 5 centuries ago (or more i am estimating) siam invaded cambodia right to phnom pen. More recently though the pra vihear temple and the hunsen story have incited this hatred of the khmers. Although it maybe right in saying that the nation is trying to push out a clearly biased story it is not right however to state that the conflict has just begun in recent years.

The idea of a warroom bring quite a bit of fear to the people in thailand, especially me since i am in rotc:(

[Scott]

Further discussions of the PAD symbol or the swastika will result in action against the posters.

Look at the title of the thread and keep on-topic.

Thanks.

[Ricardo]

Warning.. Massive Outbreak of Common Sense ahead..

The Times has a commentary out. Many are not going to like it. PM me for the link.

Excellent level-headed article, can't see what's not to like in it, but them I'm a farang.

[Asa]

Warning.. Massive Outbreak of Common Sense ahead..

The Times has a commentary out. Many are not going to like it. PM me for the link.

What's not to like? It was fair comment. Doesn't change the fact that Thaksin is arguably the most dangerous man in Thai history.

Times commentary is alright. Just can't register to write something in. However, I suggest readers to compare the edited text and the original script before making any further comment there and here. In my view, the piece is so badly twisted it did not reflect the context of the interview.

This does not involve a danger-guage. Though I would say the most dangerous Thai is the one at the top of the Green men. We need them, but can't really trust them.

[Mobi]

The Times on Line has published the full, unedited transcript of their interview with Thaksin. It runs to 12 pages.

I would say without doubt that the original story that sparked all the mayhem did contain remarks by Thaksin that were "taken out of context" and to an extent they sensationalized the story in order to obtain maximum effect - which of course they were successful in doing.

There is a lot of stuff in the Thaksin interview which certainly gives a good insight into the man and his deliberate distortion of events and the truth, but there is no doubt that any remarks he made on the "delicate subject" were enshrined in gushing protestations of loyalty, love and obedience, which were removed in the published article.

One of the more amusing aspects of the full interview, is his claim that if it were up to him he would quit politics tomorrow, but that would be "selfish", as by doing so he would let down all his friends who were relying on him.

Also, his admittance that he has "one or two hundred million unfrozen dollars" outside of Thailand. Well if he admits to "one or two hundred million", I wonder what the real number is?

His true, unpleasant and egocentric character comes through loud and clear for all to see, but I do think the Times did a bit of stitch up job on him.

But he should have known better than to shoot his mouth off in such a manner to the international press - what did he expect?

Always his worst failing is his inability to keep his mouth shut, and keep his own counsel. A telling sign of a budding megalomaniac

[jayjayjayjay]

Well, people wanting war can always go back to the 1300's and the Khmer Empire. Or they could just see that developing trade, shared national resources and tourism makes a lot more sense. Anyway, this high seaosn is still early, so far no natural or man made disasters yet; I'd say it's not too late to fuc_k it up by having a boarder war.

hahah poetry, love it, nice touch WTK.

[rixalex]

A friendly Pattaya cop, I'm sorry, I'll re-phrase that, a Pattaya cop who was being polite and non-aggressive towards me at that moment,

[PeaceBlondie]

No swastika comments. Stay on topic.

[rixalex]

One of the more amusing aspects of the full interview, is his claim that if it were up to him he would quit politics tomorrow, but that would be "selfish", as by doing so he would let down all his friends who were relying on him.

It's amazing that he manages to say these things with a straight face.

[LaoPo]

The Times on Line has published the full, unedited transcript of their interview with Thaksin. It runs to 12 pages.

I would say without doubt that the original story that sparked all the mayhem did contain remarks by Thaksin that were "taken out of context" and to an extent they sensationalized the story in order to obtain maximum effect - which of course they were successful in doing.

Well observed Mobi!

I said the same in another topic.

Our problem on this forum is that we're not able to discuss into detail the role of the circles around the highest family in the country and/or the same family and it's members, in order not to jeopardize the existence of Thaivisa.

That makes it extremely difficult -impossible in fact- to discuss in all openness and fairness and that is sad in the 21st century, knowing that most of us come from rather open democratic countries where freedom of speech and press is allowed although not for the full 100% in most countries and examples.

But, we have to respect the rules of the forum.

On the other hand it also sad that it is allowed in the Thai press to bash en keep on bashing upon certain Thai (former) influential politicians whether they did bad things in the past or not.

Most people seem to fully accept that there's a 'LM' law in Thailand and respect that law to the fullest; at the same time they're standing in queue to smear, bash and attack those (former) politicians.

Even the Thai government seem to find it normal to sue, attack and bring former politicians to the law-benches (I'm not just talking a former PM in exile here), fair or unfair.

There are bad, ugly and corrupt politicians (and businessmen) all over the world and we all know it and there will be many more in the future.

But, to not be able and allowed to discuss certain issues but have the UTMOST freedom to smear upon other human beings is something hard to swallow whether throwing that sh_t is justified or not.

It's not democratic fairness but I know, -TiT- with it's "special" laws, rules and thick velvet curtains to protect the happy few.......hard to swallow for democratic people......

LaoPo

[Scott]

"Most people seem to fully accept that there's a 'LM' law in Thailand and respect that law to the fullest"

Thanks LaoPo. I don't accept the LM law, but I live in absolute fear of it! One never quite knows when something that's been said or written will come around and bite you in the behind.

Your post, however, does hit to the core of the problem and that is there is a lot that we can't say and as a result things get mixed up. Unfortunately, that's the way it is.

[dumball]

My my my , so much hyperbole , tempest in a teacup type of chenanigins by a bunch of people who can do sweet fanny adams about anything or even have an opinion expressed where it might mean anything or at least present a few moments of mirth . Simply pack up your bags , your buisinesse and all of your great wealth and remove it from Thailand , now that I feel sure would make a lot of people stand up and take note of what expats indeed do add to the wellbeing of many a Thai . Possible greater riots in Assan than possible for any Thahsin reasons when you remove the day to day living and livelyhoods of literally thousands of the poor unwashed .

My possibly unwelcome comments on the thread for what they are worth .

[animatic]

I don't think the question is; Was hope lost by Thaksin arriving in Cambodia.

The question is why was there any hope he wouldn't take the job?

Thaksin will try any avenue to embarrass or compromise his opponents.

He wants his money and nothing is too low to try to mess with the Dems.

Also this puts him a short drive away for 'consultations',

and truckloads of cash to be shipped over for the Big Push...

He no doubt thinks his upcountry hardcore fans will support him in anything,

including a post coital incumbency with Hun Sen. I suspect he has passed a Rubicon.

Certainly some will love him come hel_l or high water, or until brain death do they part,

but MOST people in LOS are not that daft...

Was there hope, yes for a few no doubt, thinking could he really stoop so low?

Or would he so compromises his erstwhile nationalist credits in the crucible of

a despotic neighbor, who is in active border clashes with Thailand?

I say, once the offer was public he was ALWAYS gonna go and accept that nearby bully pulpit.

And he is a sucker for ANY award from ANYONE.

And the statement that he was 'not going to do political activities and only economic ones',

is one of the greatest porkies told this decade. Right up there with WMD,

and "This won't hurt a bit." Oh yeah it WILL.

Edited November 11, 2009 by animatic

[webfact]

THAKSIN'S NEW JOB

Thaksin's appointment affecting border trade

By The Nation

Published on November 12, 2009

Two Cambodians got into a fistfight at a market in the border town of Poi Pet yesterday morning over ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra being appointed as economic advisor to Hun Sen.

"One man supports Hun Sen's decision but the other man believes Thaksin's appointment would only strain ties between Thailand and Cambodia," Chua Dee, a 35-year-old Cambodian who sells second-hand shoes in the Rong Klua market on the Thai side, said about the fistfight yesterday.

"If the border checkpoints are closed because of Thaksin's appointment, then many Cambodians will definitely be against him," he added.

Still, it was business as usual at the Rong Klua market yesterday, and Sa Kaew Governor Sanit Naksuksri said the market's total sales were well above Bt20-million every day.

"Closing the border will not be good for trade and export," he warned.

Thousands of Cambodians walk into Thailand via the Ban Khlong Luek checkpoint in Sa Kaew's Aranyaprathet district every day and were doing so yesterday as well.

However, a lecturer at the Nakhon Ratchasima Rajabhat University believes the Thai government should take a harder stance against Cambodia.

"The government should consider whether it's time to close the borders. Businessmen should understand that the country's sovereignty comes first.

The government should also decide if Cambodian workers should be allowed to stay in Thailand," Samart Jabjone said.

Samart, who chairs a network of Nakhon Ratchasima Rajabhat University lecturers and students, said he would be joining the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) rally in Sanam Luang on Sunday.

"Regardless of the colour of our shirts, we will be there to declare our intention to protect Thailand's national interests," he said.

On the other hand, a Thai tour operator complained that the souring of ties between the two nations had already cost her a few million baht in lost opportunities.

"At least 80 of my customers have cancelled their trips to Cambodia," Duangrudee Apapon, owner of the Avia Angker Travel Company, said, adding that tour guides and tour-bus operators were also feeling the pinch.

-- The Nation 2009/11/12

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Samuian]

A good response with a lesson to Hun Sen's response regarding his meddling with Thai affairs and his all over the media sported coup against Thailand in "appointing" the toppled fugitive and ex-PM of Thailand as his "economical adviser", his reaction to Thailand's extradition request, his barking against a Thailand's legal System (in regards to his own countries legal system) would be the closure of the borders, access to the casinos indefinately, let's see who crack's first under pressure...!

Diplomacy, with someone like Hun Sen?

[hammered]

Thailand will continue to use diplomatic speech and low key approaches until the weekend Obama thingy is out of the way. Hun Sen will score poltical points with his own people over this but internationally his movement away from protocol wont win him any new friends. His relationship with China will remain though. After the meeting is over Abhisit may have to consider some harder response to satisfy local poltical conditions - ie alpha male PMs go down well in Thailand while quiet reasoned ones dont, and letting Cambodia get one over on Thailand is going to hurt his popularity.

It is about timing now. Hun Sen can attack and goad (and he has been ramping this up) knowing Abhisit cant respond without damaging the weekend meet.

[Steve2UK]

Thailand will continue to use diplomatic speech and low key approaches until the weekend Obama thingy is out of the way. Hun Sen will score poltical points with his own people over this but internationally his movement away from protocol wont win him any new friends. His relationship with China will remain though. After the meeting is over Abhisit may have to consider some harder response to satisfy local poltical conditions - ie alpha male PMs go down well in Thailand while quiet reasoned ones dont, and letting Cambodia get one over on Thailand is going to hurt his popularity.

It is about timing now. Hun Sen can attack and goad (and he has been ramping this up) knowing Abhisit cant respond without damaging the weekend meet.

I agree that Abhisit is forced to maintain a very awkward balance between acting in a relatively low key way for foreign consumption (certainly until the Singapore summitry is over and to some extent while Thailand remains Chair of ASEAN) with his need to look strong to his domestic audience - quite a tightrope. Conversely, I don't think Hun Sen has anything like as much need as Abhisit to "score political points with his own people" and thus has much more freedom of manoeuvre to follow his own agenda and relatively little to lose. Agree also that Hun Sen's relationship with China looks safe, but in terms of timing let's not forget what looks to be a similarly solid/reliable relationship with Vietnam - the next Chair of ASEAN and increasingly a force to be reckoned with in the region; seems unlikely that Vietnam would do much to upset their own "close friend".

There's an IMO plausible theory (to say no more than that) doing the rounds that Hun Sen's consistent ramping up of the rhetoric is specifically calculated to force Abhisit into stronger responses - so as to lead directly and deliberately to the breakdown in relations we see now. With that in mind, in a recent opinion piece in the Bangkok Post (assuming we're still allowed to mention them?), the generally sensible Atiya Achakulwisut takes the view that what we're seeing is primarily Hun Sen using Thaksin rather than the other way round; the latter version IMO was never very likely given what an old hand poker player Hun Sen is even compared to the slick Thaksin - even granted that one would naturally also expect Thaksin to act according to his own view of what benefits himself. She goes on to make some very insightful comments about what she regards as Hun Sen's real intentions (basically to stoke the fires of a Thailand v. Cambodia dispute that can be made to look like the big bully pushing around its weak neighbour). IMO what she says makes good sense - in today's UN and related/similar international institutions that plays very well to produce sympathy for the underdog. I think it's also clear that Thailand has won few international friends (or much sympathy) since the 2006 coup. I recommend searching for her article to read the rest.

Considering whether Thailand over-reacted in recalling its ambassador (and not just the usual temporary "for consultations" version) - thus automatically triggering a matching response from Cambodia, word is emerging from a usually well-informed source that the Thai MFA did first summon the Cambodian ambassador to receive a protest (usually the first low key step before escalating to recalling ambassadors). If that version is to be believed, the Cambodian ambassador said she was too busy to come to the MFA (very unusual) - and also declined to send someone to deputise for her (more than very unusual). This would fit very well with Atiya's view - i.e. Hun Sen would have instructed his ambassador to effectively ignore the MFA summons and thus force Thailand's hand........ immediately escalating the dispute.

Never mind the useful Preah Vihear sideshow (useful in the sense that it keeps the antagonism going in a case where Cambodia looks to many if not most observers as having more right on its side), there are far more important border disputes remaining to be settled - i.e. the maritime boundaries of areas identified as containing large and very valuable gas-fields. Cambodia knows that trying to settle these disputes bilaterally with bigger Thailand is less likely to work in its favour than if an international body can be brought in to arbitrate - itself rather more likely now that the dispute has reached its current level and looks set to stay that way if not get worse.

As so often with politics (not only in SE Asia, just more so) - follow the money.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Steve2UK

[rixalex]

^^ A good analysis Steve.

[LawnGnome]

^^ A good analysis Steve.

Seconded - Steve is right on the mark. Now, back to the Thaksin bashing!!!!

[Publicus]

^^ A good analysis Steve.

Agreed, but an international body is not beyond influence either whether it be regional or global (or whatever such as OECD). By its very nature, for instance, the UN is the most politicized body of the world.

[Steve2UK]

^^ A good analysis Steve.

Agreed, but an international body is not beyond influence either whether it be regional or global (or whatever such as OECD). By its very nature, for instance, the UN is the most politicized body of the world.

Why the "but"? Otherwise, I fully agree with you. If the US stays effectively neutral (and I'd say even if they don't), who is a bigger influence in those bodies now than ever-more-expansive China? Is China notably pally with Thailand or with Cambodia? Does China have any strategic interests in or affected by Thailand? Coincidentally but topically, I notice that the Chinese premier en route to Singapore stopped off in KL to sign several trade agreements and industrial development MOU's - not Bangkok.

[zzaa09]

visit coincides with rumour of 'war room' in Phnom Penn

I thought rumour mongering was frowned upon legally in this country.. Maybe only when it applies to the other side.

whose presence in Phnom Penh coincided with earlier rumours that Thaksin's innermost circle was setting up a "war room" in the Cambodian capital amid concerns that

Nice; a 'rumour' competely without source or fact. I'd flunk doing that even in a high school article assignment.

Gotta love the way The Nation completely flips things around, taking the 'bad relationhip with Cambodia' as a fact of life, and not something completely the Thai government's doing in recent times. Then they jump to saying that Cambodia is now somehow the enemy, meaning Thaksin is a traitor. Hello, Cambodia and Thailand had excellent relationships until very recently, as they should; they have a lot more in common than divides them, and are natural trade partners.

This nationlist BS initially banged up by PAD is getting to the Nation's head it seems. Go to war already why don't you.

PAD's New Politics.. nationalist claptrap and wanting war.. Hmmm..

["New Politics Party" logo; I did NOT make this up!

The ones that talk the loudest should also be the first to serve in the trenches of such a {faerie story} war.