Those Words That I Can't Look Up...

[Gaccha]

There are some concepts that require a bunching of words in English, which make it impossible to find the concept in a dictionary, but also it is not then considered a grammar point. So for starters can I have these concepts translated to Thai please:

so to speak

so-called

in a sense

for starters

have a tendency to

Thanks, and I would like to see more listed if others can think of any...

[oevna]

These are all figures of speech in English, and it would be hard to translate them even if they were only one word. When I'm in this situation, I usually try to find a synonym in English that is only one word, and then look that up.

The only one of those that I can think of a Thai equivalent for would be "have a tendency to...," which is similar to the Thai expression "มักจะ...".

มักจะ (mak ja...) - usually, often.

This is usually used when referring to people. For example, เขามักจะนอนดึก (khao mak ja norn deuk), "he usually goes to bed late."

[oevna]

And just to add to that, I just found this:

มีแนวโน้ม (mii naeo nohm) - to have a tendency.

In general, I found Glen's site thai-language.com to be very useful for this sort of thing. You might have to follow some links around the site to refine what you are looking for, but he has done a really good job.

(There is better pronunciation help on that page, including audio clips.)

[SoftWater]

A couple of teachers have tried to knock this idea out of me. When I first started learning to write Thai at a school, I wanted to add the kind of rhetorical flourishes that I would use in English 'and another thing', 'besides', and, indeed some of the ones you give above.

Some Thai friends have provided me with equivalents of one or two after some pressing, but the response has always been the same: for the most part, these are not Thai expressions, and Thais often won't get them if you try to use them.

The only one I can think of that has a Thai counterpart (at least in writing, I'm not so good on colloquial speech)

is

'For starters' = the first thing (to do/ to say) ส่ิงแรก(ที่จะทำ / ที่จะบอก)

[kikenyoy]

I agree with softwater. I've had the same problems and heard the same warnings.

In colloquial speech if you want to say "for starters" I think you can use แรกๆ .

You might want to take a look at the Oxford River English Thai dictionary. When you look up a word it often gives several (sometimes dozens) of these compound words. For example, the word "speak" lists:

speak for yourself

is spoken for (reserved)

no___to speak of

speak out against

Is Mr. Grant there? Speaking.

speak one's opinion/mind

etc.

and they seem to do a good job of translating the meaning and not word-by-word.

no trees to speak of

แทบจะไม่มีต้นไม้เลย

is spoken for

มีผู้ขอไว้แลว

I don't know if these are always the most common way to express the ideas in Thai but they should be at least close enough to be understood.

Edited November 12, 2009 by kikenyoy

[yoot]

There are some concepts that require a bunching of words in English, which make it impossible to find the concept in a dictionary

You can find them in Babylon dictionary. The translation to Thai of these phrases are pretty good.

From you examples;

so to speak - พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า

so-called - ที่เรียกกันว่า

in a sense - ว่าโดยนัยหนึ่ง

for starters - เริ่มแรก

have a tendency to - มีแนวโน้มที่จะ (this is my translation. )

[SoftWater]

There are some concepts that require a bunching of words in English, which make it impossible to find the concept in a dictionary

You can find them in Babylon dictionary. The translation to Thai of these phrases are pretty good.

Yoot, can you give more details about how to find this 'Babylon' dictionary? Full name, publisher etc. Sounds good.

I would also second kikenyoy's recommendation of the Oxford River English-Thai Dictionary. Easily the best English-Thai resource out there. At 1000B you might think its hefty, but it has more than twice the value than any of its cheaper competitors.

[yoot]

SoftWater,

You can search on Google, or check out this link.

[anothertorres]

how about "goose bumps"? what's the thai word for them?

[Gaccha]

A couple of teachers have tried to knock this idea out of me. When I first started learning to write Thai at a school, I wanted to add the kind of rhetorical flourishes that I would use in English 'and another thing', 'besides', and, indeed some of the ones you give above.

Some Thai friends have provided me with equivalents of one or two after some pressing, but the response has always been the same: for the most part, these are not Thai expressions, and Thais often won't get them if you try to use them.

The only one I can think of that has a Thai counterpart (at least in writing, I'm not so good on colloquial speech)

is

'For starters' = the first thing (to do/ to say) ส่ิงแรก(ที่จะทำ / ที่จะบอก)

I think your confusing two points. A literal translation of the English will be barely comprehensible. But for Thai friends to claim the concepts don't exist/are not used in Thai is laughable.

'So-called' 'so to be speak': いわば　　いわゆる are perfectly translated into one word in japanese.

These are simple concepts that humans utilise to understand the world.

But in contradistinction, had you asked them how to say "and another thing" then it would seem bizarre if it was literal, but the concept is the same as "in addition", "futhermore" etc., and these are used all the time. I suspect your Thai friends simply didn't understand the request.

I note confiusion in the responses. I am driving at the tendency for English to use several words when one would be adequate.

[Rikker]

so to speak - พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า

That translation isn't right.

As I understand and use it, "so to speak" = "in a manner of speaking"; both are phrases used to indicate that one is speaking figuratively.

How about something along the lines of "พูดเป็นเชิงอุปมา" -- but that isn't idiomatic the same way "so to speak" is in English.

Any thoughts?

[eric67]

how about "goose bumps"? what's the thai word for them?

Goose bumps in Thai are: Kŏn Lúk ขนลุก , or Kŏn Lúk Soo Sâa ขนลุกซูซ่า

[DavidHouston]

See the ลูกทุ่ง song "ขนแขน Stand Up" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahnSUe5YsQQ

[yoot]

so to speak - พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า

That translation isn't right.

As I understand and use it, "so to speak" = "in a manner of speaking"; both are phrases used to indicate that one is speaking figuratively.

How about something along the lines of "พูดเป็นเชิงอุปมา" -- but that isn't idiomatic the same way "so to speak" is in English.

Any thoughts?

I don't think "พูดเป็นเชิงอุปมา" is a good translation for "so to speak". This phrase would be used in case the first sentence is talking about something in metaphor and then you have to say "พูดเป็นเชิงอุปมา" to explain that metaphor.

"so to speak" can be translated to พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า, จะว่าไปแล้ว, จะพูดเช่นนั้นก็ได้, จะบอกว่าอย่างงั้นก็ได้, etc. But which phrase should be used in the translation, it depends on context.

[Rikker]

Yes, I don't think it's a good idiomatic translation; it's more of an explanatory translation. I wasn't suggesting it as something one would say in Thai. I remain unsure if there is a good idiomatic translation.

I'm having trouble thinking of a situation for which พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า, จะว่าไปแล้ว, จะพูดเช่นนั้นก็ได้, or จะบอกว่าอย่างงั้นก็ได้ are appropriate translations of "so to speak." The English phrase is an idiom, and so it seems that literal translation of the phrase is mistranslation. Hence the OP's difficulty in finding a translation.

Here's a hypothetical example of how I might use "so to speak":

Let's say I work for the Red Cross. I see a new group of volunteers arriving. I comment to a co-worker, "Ah, here comes the new blood... so to speak."

Since "new blood" is used metaphorically here -- meaning a revitalizing infusion of workers -- "so to speak" is a way of acknowledging that I've just made a play on words. That's all it means in this context, at least to me. I can't imagine using the phrases จะพูดเช่นนั้นก็ได้, จะบอกว่าอย่างนั้นก็ได้, พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า in an informal context, especially following wordplay ... they're so stilted. เลือดใหม่มาแล้ว จะบอกว่าอย่างนั้นก็ได้. Just doesn't fit. :-\

I guess for me, "so to speak" and "in a manner of speaking" are roughly equivalent to the tag, "figuratively speaking." Hence my suggestion.

Yoot, can you explain more about the proper use จะว่าไปแล้ว?

[SoftWater]

I think your confusing two points. A literal translation of the English will be barely comprehensible. But for Thai friends to claim the concepts don't exist/are not used in Thai is laughable.

There is a principle of charity known in philosophy, but one I have found to be good for social life in general, which is to assume that people's comments that you don't understand are at least rational. Only on this basis is interpretation of meaning (and in the wider sense, fraternity) possible. I'll take note, given the derisive nature of your reply, not to bother contributing to your OPs in future (which no doubt will please you).

I post here only to remove a confusion: I didn't say the the concepts didn't exist in Thai, I said they were not used as rhetorical flourishes in Thai in the way that they are in English. A Thai teacher at AAA Pasawes School told me that, as did a private Thai teacher who speaks very good English. Are they both wrong? I don't know - I'm just sharing what I have been told.

'Furthermore, In addition, Moreover' etc are known as logical transitions. There are perfectly good equivalents of these in Thai and probably every other language I would suspect - but these weren't what either you or I were talking about.

Edited November 13, 2009 by SoftWater

[yoot]

Yes, I don't think it's a good idiomatic translation; it's more of an explanatory translation. I wasn't suggesting it as something one would say in Thai. I remain unsure if there is a good idiomatic translation.

I'm having trouble thinking of a situation for which พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า, จะว่าไปแล้ว, จะพูดเช่นนั้นก็ได้, or จะบอกว่าอย่างงั้นก็ได้ are appropriate translations of "so to speak." The English phrase is an idiom, and so it seems that literal translation of the phrase is mistranslation. Hence the OP's difficulty in finding a translation.

Here's a hypothetical example of how I might use "so to speak":

Let's say I work for the Red Cross. I see a new group of volunteers arriving. I comment to a co-worker, "Ah, here comes the new blood... so to speak."

Since "new blood" is used metaphorically here -- meaning a revitalizing infusion of workers -- "so to speak" is a way of acknowledging that I've just made a play on words. That's all it means in this context, at least to me. I can't imagine using the phrases จะพูดเช่นนั้นก็ได้, จะบอกว่าอย่างนั้นก็ได้, พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่า in an informal context, especially following wordplay ... they're so stilted. เลือดใหม่มาแล้ว จะบอกว่าอย่างนั้นก็ได้. Just doesn't fit. :-\

I guess for me, "so to speak" and "in a manner of speaking" are roughly equivalent to the tag, "figuratively speaking." Hence my suggestion.

Yoot, can you explain more about the proper use จะว่าไปแล้ว?

That's because you don't understand the concept of how to use these phrases.

From your example;

Let's say I work for the Red Cross. I see a new group of volunteers arriving. I comment to a co-worker, "Ah, here comes the new blood... so to speak."

I would say "จะว่าไปแล้ว นั่นไง พวกเลือดใหม่มาแล้ว". Simply, huh?

As for other examples of how to use these phrase to represent the meaning of "so to speak";

Yoot helps me with my taxes. He's my accountant, so to speak.

- ยุทธ์เขาช่วยฉันในเรื่องภาษี จะว่าไปแล้ว เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน

In that relationship it's very much Anna who wears the trousers, so to speak.

- ในความสัมพันธ์นั้น พอที่จะกล่าวได้ว่าแอนนาเป็นผู้ที่ตัดสินใจในเรื่องสำคัญทั้งหมด (In translation to Thai for the sentence like this, word by word translation will not work, so, you have to understand the context and translate it as it should be. If you translate it literally by using the phrase you suggested, it would be "ในความสัมพันธ์นั้น พูดในเชิงอุปมา แอนนาคือผู้ที่สวมกางเกงขายาว". So, how people would understand this translation?)

[Rikker]

It's not my position that there has to be a close Thai equivalent. I still don't think those are good ones. Maybe if one is translating an English novel into Thai and must translate the phrase somehow, then those would do. But trading one rhetorical flourish for another doesn't make the meanings equivalent. I think in this case there just isn't a good idiomatic equivalent. Perhaps I'm also misunderstanding how to use the English phrase?

Take จะว่าไปแล้ว. Sometimes it appears to fit. But just as often it's used entirely differently from "so to speak". To be equivalents, we must be able to use each in similar contexts as the other. Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak.

I appreciate your conviction, though.

[Gaccha]

given the derisive nature of your reply, not to bother contributing to your OPs in future (which no doubt will please you).

I post here only to remove a confusion: I didn't say the the concepts didn't exist in Thai, I said they were not used as rhetorical flourishes in Thai in the way that they are in English. A Thai teacher at AAA Pasawes School told me that, as did a private Thai teacher who speaks very good English. Are they both wrong? I don't know - I'm just sharing what I have been told.

'Furthermore, In addition, Moreover' etc are known as logical transitions. There are perfectly good equivalents of these in Thai and probably every other language I would suspect - but these weren't what either you or I were talking about.

ทำไมถึงคิดอย่างนั้นล่ะ

Relax, my friend. My comment of 'laughable' wasn't an aside against you, or your friends, it was a feeling I have for the game of language learning. I find within this system certain odd points constantly arise, often connected to the wrong decision of the teacher-agent to socially engineer. Words and ideas are denied to exist in the target language; the famous case is the bizarre insistence that Japanese does not have swear words. I am suggesting that your friends' positioning is almost certainly an element of the nature of teaching. I feel it inevitable that in 6 months time I will come across the exact words I wanted, Thai friends will grunt their misunderstanding of my original request for help and life will move on.

I really don't see what I have described as flourishes. Actually it is their ability to circumscribe a thought that makes them so practical.

Come on back in to the debate.

so to speak

Adverb

1. as if it were really so; "she lives here, as it were"

(synonym) as it were

2. in a manner of speaking; "the feeling is, as we say, quite dead"

(synonym) as we say

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)So-called

(a.)

So named; called by such a name (but perhaps called thus with doubtful propriety).

[aanon]

I would like to hear yoot's thoughts on what จะว่าไปแล้ว actually means in the sentence จะว่าไปแล้ว นั่นไง พวกเลือดใหม่มาแล้ว. My sense is that it's simply a way of starting a sentence while indicating a link to something previously talked about, along the lines of "speaking of which" or "in fact" or "actually" in English. Does จะว่าไปแล้ว in any way imply that a term to follow is going to be used in a figurative sense?

Note: in ยุทธ์เขาช่วยฉันในเรื่องภาษี จะว่าไปแล้ว เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน, นักบัญชี is merely being used loosely, as in fact signalled by เหมือน, rather than figuratively.

To phrase the "so to speak" issue another way, is there any idiomatic Thai way to say, after finishing a sentence, that you didn't intend your words to be interpreted literally?

aanon

[yoot]

Ok, let's see the definition of 'so to speak' ;

From Longman: so to speak used when you are say words that do not have their usual meaning.

From Cambridge Dict. : so to speak used to explain that what you are saying is not to be understood exactly as stated

And, the definition of 'in a figurative sense';

From babylon dictionary: metaphorically; in a metaphorical sense; descriptively.

Now, let's see my example;

ยุทธ์เขาช่วยฉันในเรื่องภาษี จะว่าไปแล้ว เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน

- เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน in Thai this sentence would imply that he is not my accountant. It's just a metaphorical sense.

To translate from English to Thai for a sentence which is in metaphorical sense the word 'เหมือน' is often use to imply metaphorical sense.

จะว่าไปแล้ว นั่นไง พวกเลือดใหม่มาแล้ว

- จะว่าไปแล้ว in this sentense implies that whatever พวกเลือดใหม่ mean, here they come.

Or take Rikker's another example;

Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak.

- จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส

Note: it might look like a literal translation but it implies the same sense as the English version.

Do you still think this translation is wrong?

I will give you some more examples of จะว่าไปแล้ว in Thai langauge;

อย่างนี้เขาเรียกว่าหมูเขาจะหามดันเอาคานเข้าไปแทรก ถ้าจะว่าไปแล้ว

ถ้ารู้แต่แรกว่าจะมีปัญหา ผมน่าจะทำตัวเอามือซุกหีบไว้ก็ดีหรอก จะว่าไปแล้ว

Edited November 14, 2009 by yoot

[Rikker]

ยุทธ์เขาช่วยฉันในเรื่องภาษี จะว่าไปแล้ว เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน

- เขาก็เหมือนนักบัญชีของฉัน in Thai this sentence would imply that he is not my accountant. It's just a metaphorical sense.

To translate from English to Thai for a sentence which is in metaphorical sense the word 'เหมือน' is often use to imply metaphorical sense.

In this example, Yoot is not a metaphorical accountant -- Yoot is a literal accountant, just not a professional one. A metaphor is "language that directly connects seemingly unrelated subjects" -- "accountant" and "helps me with my taxes" are quite literally related. Thus, no metaphor. And for that reason, personally I wouldn't use "so to speak" in English, in this case. It struck me as odd when I first read it, but I am open to differing opinions.

Ignoring that, though, by your explanation, the word เหมือน is what marks the supposed metaphor, and not จะว่าไปแล้ว. So it seems clear that จะว่าไปแล้ว is serving a different rhetorical function than "so to speak" would in English.

จะว่าไปแล้ว นั่นไง พวกเลือดใหม่มาแล้ว

- จะว่าไปแล้ว in this sentense implies that whatever พวกเลือดใหม่ mean, here they come.

Again, this is a different meaning from "so to speak." It introduces the topic because you spotted them coming. I could just as easily say "so to speak" if I had read an email about the new volunteers, or a friend had just told me he came from another building where he ran into the new volunteers. Because in all of these senses, "so to speak" just expresses that I'm speaking metaphorically.

Or take Rikker's another example;

Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak.

- จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส

Note: it might look like a literal translation but it implies the same sense as the English version.

Do you still think this translation is wrong?

Again, my sense is that this serves a different discourse purpose, introducing a topic, or else framing it in a particular way. It doesn't denote a metaphorical meaning, even if it implies one. [Edit: fixed typo "does" to "doesn't" --Rikker]

So in short, I think that these are all serviceable translations, but I don't think that จะว่าไปแล้ว means the same thing as "so to speak."

To pluck a few from Google (to make sure they are authentic examples from native speakers):

โรงแรม จะว่าไปแล้วทำไมต้องจองก่อน?

จะว่าไปแล้ว ชาวเอเชียนั้นมีความสามารถไม่ได้ด้อยไปกว่าพวกฝรั่งเลย

จะว่าไปแล้วมันก็จำเป็นน่ะว่าม๊ะ

จะว่าไปแล้วเดี๋ยวนี้โน้ตบุ้กหาย

It seems perfectly clear, at least to me, that no metaphor is implied, let alone denoted, in any of these.

I will give you some more examples of จะว่าไปแล้ว in Thai langauge;

อย่างนี้เขาเรียกว่าหมูเขาจะหามดันเอาคานเข้าไปแทรก ถ้าจะว่าไปแล้ว

ถ้ารู้แต่แรกว่าจะมีปัญหา ผมน่าจะทำตัวเอามือซุกหีบไว้ก็ดีหรอก จะว่าไปแล้ว

This is simply a difference of opinion. No need to take things personally.

disagreement ≠ problem

Disagreement does not imply a value judgment. Disagreement and level-headed discussion are how we learn new things. Your input is always appreciated, and much welcomed.

[yoot]

In this example, Yoot is not a metaphorical accountant -- Yoot is a literal accountant, just not a professional one. A metaphor is "language that directly connects seemingly unrelated subjects" -- "accountant" and "helps me with my taxes" are quite literally related. Thus, no metaphor. And for that reason, personally I wouldn't use "so to speak" in English, in this case. It struck me as odd when I first read it, but I am open to differing opinions.

Well, there is nothing in the sentence telling that Yoot is an accountant. He might be an engineer who know about the taxes. The word เหมือน is shorten from เปรียบเสมือน (to be comparable to).

And, the usage of 'so to speak' in this case, I took it from a dictionary for making sure that it's exist in real, just change the name of it. So, I didn't make it up by myself.

โรงแรม จะว่าไปแล้วทำไมต้องจองก่อน?

จะว่าไปแล้ว ชาวเอเชียนั้นมีความสามารถไม่ได้ด้อยไปกว่าพวกฝรั่งเลย

จะว่าไปแล้วมันก็จำเป็นน่ะว่าม๊ะ

จะว่าไปแล้วเดี๋ยวนี้โน้ตบุ้กหาย

It seems perfectly clear, at least to me, that no metaphor is implied, let alone denoted, in any of these.

I said 'so to speak' can be translated to 'จะว่าไปแล้ว', but I didn't say it's always used in this meaning. You can see the meaning of the word 'so to speak' from Gaccha's post, it has two meanings. Why only English words can have many meanings but Thai words can't?

This is simply a difference of opinion. No need to take things personally.

disagreement ≠ problem

Disagreement does not imply a value judgment. Disagreement and level-headed discussion are how we learn new things. Your input is always appreciated, and much welcomed.

Wow, who take things personally in this case? I just made fun with my example, nothing taking personally.

In my example, it's how 'จะว่าไปแล้ว' used in metaphorical sense which you might disagree with me. But I really have no problem for that. I just tried to explain my opinion on Thai language and never take things personally. Why should I take things personally? If I feel being offended, I can easily stop posting, that would be easier. Don't you think?

If I give another example, will you take it personally? Well, please don't. It's just a clear example I can think of. จะว่าไปแล้ว ควายก็คือควายอยู่วันยังค่ำ No offense, ok? I just want to ask you what do you think of this example. Do you think this can be counted as 'in a figurative sense' or not?

[yoot]

- จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส

Again, my sense is that this serves a different discourse purpose, introducing a topic, or else framing it in a particular way. It does denote a metaphorical meaning, even if it implies one.

I forgot this one.

Could you explain to me what do you think about this Thai sentence, what does it imply? Don't you see that it does denote a metaphorical meaning as the English version does?

[Rikker]

Ah, I just spotted my typo and corrected it. Thanks. "Does" should have read "doesn't", but it seems you understood what I meant anyhow.

There's a difference between denotation and connotation. Roughly speaking, denotation means to state explicitly, and connotation means to imply or state implicitly. Usually a metaphor is implicit. Shakespeare wrote "All the world's a stage" -- he's making an implicitly metaphorical statement.

Adding "so to speak" makes it rhetorically explicit that one is being metaphorical, rather than just implying as much based on the context. At least, that's how I would put it.

The reason that "จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส" isn't explicitly a metaphor is because this is a literally true sentence. In geometry, all squares are literally rectangles, but not all rectangles are literally squares.

When I used this, and added "so to speak," I was making a metaphor. This was intended to be a metaphor for "every use of 'so to speak' might be translated as 'จะว่าไปแล้ว', but not every use of 'จะว่าไปแล้ว' can be translated as 'so to speak'". And by adding "so to speak", I was reinforcing the idea that I was speaking metaphorically, even though the context already implied that I was doing so, since we weren't previously talking about geometry.

I think your rendering of the phrase as "จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส" retains the implied metaphor, but I am still inclined to believe that จะว่าไปแล้ว -- based upon all the evidence presented by both parties, and not because I have bovine DNA -- does not force the sentence following to be understood metaphorically.

[Kitsch22]

Ah, I just spotted my typo and corrected it. Thanks. "Does" should have read "doesn't", but it seems you understood what I meant anyhow.

There's a difference between denotation and connotation. Roughly speaking, denotation means to state explicitly, and connotation means to imply or state implicitly. Usually a metaphor is implicit. Shakespeare wrote "All the world's a stage" -- he's making an implicitly metaphorical statement.

Adding "so to speak" makes it rhetorically explicit that one is being metaphorical, rather than just implying as much based on the context. At least, that's how I would put it.

I have been reading this thread with interest but with growing bewilderment. I may have missed something, but can you please explain why and how you produced the example:

"Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak"?

To me that seems to be a highly unusual and unnatural deployment of the phrase "so to speak"; it strikes me as incongruous. It is tacked on to a sentence which expresses a mere fact of geometry, as you acknowledge. The sentence requires no amplification nor qualification and the addition of the words "so to speak" conveys no ancillary meaning to me. As a consequence I find it very difficult to recognize any attempt to translate it into the Thai language as being valid. I start from the position that it is pointless to try to translate something that is not rigorously meaningful in its original form.

These references to metaphor accordingly seem to me to be inappropriate. What is the metaphor there? A metaphor involves the use of words which upon a most strict interpretation are untrue. Where is the untruth in that example?

A construction either is a metaphor or it is not. I cannot see how any "implicit/explicit" dichotomy arises.

[Rikker]

I took the geometric fact and was using it as a metaphor for the alleged equivalency between the Thai phrase จะว่าไปแล้ว and the English phrase "so to speak". I guess it's more of an analogy, anyway. This is why I don't do literary criticism. Nor literary translation.

[yoot]

"Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak"

"จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส"

Do you know, one thing I think this is a classic example for me, although some of you might not agree.

This sentence is a good sentence to present this translation to me.

"Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square, so to speak"

In Thai, if we are in a conversation and arguing about something which one might not agree with each other, we can say "จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส ดังนั้น จากตัวอย่างที่ถกเถียงกัน คำแปลแต่ละคำที่ยกมา สามารถเป็นคำแปลของศัพท์ภาษาอังกฤษคำว่า "so to speak" ได้ แต่มันไม่จำเป็นที่ว่าคำว่า "so to speak" ต้องแปลเป็นคำเหล่านั้นเท่านั้น (มันอาจจะแปลเป็นอย่างอื่นก็ได้ ขึ้นอยู่กับบริบท)"

So, I think I will let you guys to consider about it yourselves. Sometimes something might not be as it seems. I accept that my English is not so good, so that, I won't claim that I can understand everything perfectly. All I tried to do was explain how it works in Thai language, that's all.

[yoot]

I think I should explain a bit for this translation in Thai ; จะว่าไปแล้ว สี่เหลื่ยมจัตุรัสทุกรูปเป็นสี่เหลี่ยม แต่ใช่ว่าสี่เหลี่ยมทุกรูปจะเป็นสี่เหลี่ยมจัตุรัส

Although it's a simple fact, but to me it can be a metaphor in Thai language, if I said that it would imply "ความจริงบางอย่างเป็นจริงสำหรับกรณีหนึ่ง แต่ใช่ว่าความจริงนั้นจะใช้ได้กับทุกกรณี" it just doesn't need to say it literally. By saying จะว่าไปแล้ว that means you need to think about it.

[Gaccha]

Ah, I just spotted my typo and corrected it. Thanks. "Does" should have read "doesn't", but it seems you understood what I meant anyhow.

There's a difference between denotation and connotation. Roughly speaking, denotation means to state explicitly, and connotation means to imply or state implicitly. Usually a metaphor is implicit. Shakespeare wrote "All the world's a stage" -- he's making an implicitly metaphorical statement.

Adding "so to speak" makes it rhetorically explicit that one is being metaphorical, rather than just implying as much based on the context. At least, that's how I would put it.

Amusingly in modern vernacular, we can say "quite literally, all the world is a stage" despite this not possibly being the case (unless, of course, the whole world really is a stage). I have noticed an adaption of this which makes it at least logically correct: "it's literally like all the world is a stage" or the slightly varied meaning: "it's like literally all the world is a stage".

This adds not a dime to the debate, but is amusing.