Passport Confiscated At American Embassy

[Theyreallrubbish]

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/info/info_870.html

A federal or state law enforcement agency may request the denial of a passport on several regulatory grounds under 22 CFR 51.70 and 51.72. The principal law enforcement reasons for passport denial are a federal warrant of arrest, a federal or state criminal court order, a condition of parole or probation forbidding departure from the United States (or the jurisdiction of the court), or a request for extradition. The HHS child support database and the Marshals Service WIN database are checked automatically for entitlement to a passport. Denial or revocation of a passport does not prevent the use of outstanding valid passports.

Passport revocation may be effected when the person obtained the passport fraudulently, when the passport was issued in error, when the person’s certificate of naturalization was cancelled by a federal court, or when the person would not be entitled to a new passport under 22 CFR 51.70 (a) or (. The physical revocation of a passport is often difficult, and an apparently valid passport can be used for travel until officially taken by an arresting officer or by a court.

That's pretty incredible that you have to be a convicted felon, OR have a child support claim against you. So they've officially made a child support CLAIM as serious as a felony, as you'll be in the basis based on the mother's claim until you get a court order specifying otherwise.

Just goes to show that having a child in the west is only safe for a man if you're very rich or very poor. If you're middle class forget it as you become an indentured servant subject to the whims of the mother with the full apparatus of the state arrayed against you

[Heng]

thanks for the info, Lop. Just curious.

[Luang]

'Deadbeat dads' face losing passports and driving licences WITHOUT a court appearance

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

Last updated at 10:12 AM on 27th January 2009

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...appearance.html

As I said - this is not just a US issue - the above is the UK.

So, what is your take on this lopburi3?

Not sure why you quoted a rightwing rag as some kind of meaningful info./ source?

Gutter press - just like the News of the World etc. So does it carry any clout or just fan whatever flames are smouldering at the time?

Is this where you inform yourself?

[Ulysses G.]

The funny thing is that a few weeks ago the CM Consulate supposedly gave a convicted felon with an arrest warrant out for him his passport back when he applied for new pages in his passport. They also informed him that the police are looking for him for fleeing parole in America for child porno charges.

Makes you wonder.

[Jingthing]

It seems to me adding pages and applying for a new passport are not the same thing. The OP was trying to do the former. So they took away his VALID passport. That is not the same thing as denying issuance of a new one.

BTW, both PC and fascist are loaded blurry concepts, so sure, by some interpretations, you can be both at the same time.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Jingthing

[geriatrickid]

With all the stuff we all dump on Thailand, little stories like this are a timely reminder of how the west has become so PC bureaucratic and fascist. And how so many things here are so much better. Land of the free, eh? Hope you sort out the headaches.

Yep!

The revocation of such documents as state issued driver licenses and a US passport is treated as a "last resort" measure when other efforts to collect monies due fail. What happened to the multiple notices that were send to the complainant? Were they ignored? Warnings advising of the consequences are sent to the address and attorney that the respondent has provided to the courts.

If the financial situation of the complainant changed, why wasn't a request for relief filed with the court? When someone does not have funds and can demonstrate that, the court will provide relief, but a request must be made and supporting documentation must be submitted. Did the OP think that by moving to Thailand he would evade his financial obligation?

Taxpayers in many states grew weary of the expense and burden of supporting families when there were support orders outstanding. The claim that this action reflects a bureaucratic faciast system is not only false but is hypocritical. The burden of support falls upon the taxpayer when child support orders are ignored. Why should the regular working man or woman be expected to take care of someone else's legal obligation? People complaining are also the first people to complain about high tax rates. Well golly gee, this is why taxes are high, because the state has to assume the burden of cleaning up the mess.

What we have here is a story full of holes. What is missing is the full story, i.e. the child's perspective, the court history and a better picture of the OP. Along with passport revocation will come tax refund and pension garnishments, assuming of course tax filings have been made. I think the OP is in for a few more actions, assuming those measures have not already been implemented. Sorry, but no sympathy from me because there is a lot more to this story than has been presented.

[lopburi3]

It seems to me adding pages and applying for a new passport are not the same thing. The OP was trying to do the former. So they took away his VALID passport. That is not the same thing as denying issuance of a new one.

BTW, both PC and fascist are loaded blurry concepts, so sure, by some interpretations, you can be both at the same time.

Law prevents issue of a passport to anyone in errors of $2,500 or more so below clause i suspect provides basis for revocation.

or when the person would not be entitled to a new passport under 22 CFR 51.70 (a) or ( b.

[Chang_paarp]

I would pack a smallish bag, and go to the embassy and politely ask for your passport back.

When refused point out that to leave the embassy property you will be in breach of Thai law by not having valid travel documents and visa or exemption to stay. Point out they cannot force you to break the law.

Sit quietly in a corner and watch what happens. (Offer to arrange a tent if they have no accommodation.) I would recommend also having a phone well charged with credit so you can ring your Thai and US lawyer as well as your local congressman and senator.

Unfortunately they may chose to summons the immigration police with this stand.

[Scott]

Remember that the passport is the property of the U.S. gov't. It does not belong to the person it is issued to. When the Embassy keeps your passport for any reason, they will issue you with a letter for the local police explaining the passport is with the embassy.

[alobar]

Are they still going to set up those free vasectomy tents next week?

[givenall]

Did they mention whether they will issue you an emergency travel passport just for the purpose of traveling back to the US? Whether or not your ex-wife has a case, I wish you the best and hope you can get this sorted out. It is offensive that our government abuses their power in this way. I can understand for a very serious criminal charge, in that case, the offenders should simply be arrested and deported. Leaving nationals "naked" with no passport in a country like Thailand is cruel and unusual. I understand some people will respond that you deserve it. To them I say wait until such draconian measures are used against you and then tell us how you feel.

I too, find this a bit unusual. An American diplomatic service involving itself into a personal and legal Thai domestic issue. A truely criminal offence could be justified, but a domestic squabble? And then retaining ones passport...?? Odd.

This is a new law the federal gov. helps states to collect child supports

[Mrjlh]

It seems to me adding pages and applying for a new passport are not the same thing. The OP was trying to do the former. So they took away his VALID passport. That is not the same thing as denying issuance of a new one.

BTW, both PC and fascist are loaded blurry concepts, so sure, by some interpretations, you can be both at the same time.

Law prevents issue of a passport to anyone in errors of $2,500 or more so below clause i suspect provides basis for revocation.

or when the person would not be entitled to a new passport under 22 CFR 51.70 (a) or ( b.

Sounds like they just recently lower the sum to $2,500.

Also there is a lot not being told by the OP. Notice how silent he is?

We can thank the California Divorce Law (the one that was supposed be fair and equal) on good 'ol boy Sen. Pannetta. He just kept writting and adding until it was a complete mess. And "THEN" every other state followed.

[zzaa09]

how the west has become so PC bureaucratic and fascist

How can a government be in the same time p.c. and fascist?

I believe this all depends on how defines Fascism, yes?

[fletchsmile]

Extract from the Daily Mail, UK, link above:

The Liberal Democrats said the child support system had been a shambles for more than a decade. Work and pensions spokesman Steve Webb said: 'The reaction of this Government to a failing policy is to try to sound tougher. 'Talk can never be a substitute for a coherent, effective policy that gets money to the children that need it.'

And family law group Resolution called for an urgent rethink of what it called the 'draconian punitive measures on child support'.

Chair of Resolution's Child Support committee, Kim Fellowes, said: 'We agree with the government's aim that all parents meet their pastoral and financial responsibilities toward their children.

'However, it is well known that the administration of child support in this country is riddled with errors and bureaucratic failures.

'Until the system is fixed, running smoothly and has public confidence there can be no justification for not allowing a right to challenge such draconian measures in the courts.'

I would think these comments apply similarly to the US and UK, and provide some context and balance to the types of things that can and do go wrong.

For OP, I would suggest you go back, calmly talk to the embassy, backed up with any evidence you have, and ask them what the next step is. If they're going to take away some of your rights, at least they can tell you what you have to do next, and what after that if you don't have the money to pay... If not try a separate section in the embassy, after all they are supposed in theory to help their citizens....

[gregb]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. We all know the US is incredibly unfair when it comes to personal hardship, but they are absolutely draconian with regard to anyone they consider "deadbeat dads". It is better to be a sex offender or paedophile than to be behind on your child support payments.

Everyone knows they seize passports though. The form you signed when you went to add passport pages told you they would check this list. If there was even a chance this could happen, you should have prepared before going to the Embassy.

Unfortunately, now, your only real option is to apply for a temporary travel document at the Embassy that will allow you to return home to the states. There, you will have to hire a lawyer for several thousand dollars and then try and argue in front of a judge that your circumstances do not allow such high payments. He will not be sympathetic. He'll believe you are hiding income in Thailand. You'll most likely lose.

You aren't really even allowed to stay in Thailand at this point. You no longer have a passport, and therefore your Thai visa that allowed you to stay is now invalid. Even if you make payment in full tomorrow it could take months to get off this list. You won't be issued a new passport until this is cleared up.

Sadly, I think your days of staying in Thailand are over unless you can resolve this issue with the American court system. I would simply face the music and make plans to depart and most likely not return for the immediate future, if ever. Your life is going to be hel_l. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. You'll need to get a job making enough money to pay your back child support. Not easy in the current economy, but after a few years flipping burgers in the states because that is the only job you can get, it may be possible to convince a judge to lower your payments.

Consider this a life experience. You might come out of it a better person in the end. Don't listen to those who try and say this is all your fault. It isn't. You are a victim of a diseased culture. In a more rational time you would have had support of an extended family to resolve this issue before it began. But you live today. Other people were Khmer and lived through the Khmer Rouge. This is just your burden to carry. You need to decide today if you are going to try and fight your way back or simply kill yourself. Neither choice is pleasant, but the choice is yours to make.

[bonobo]

how the west has become so PC bureaucratic and fascist

How can a government be in the same time p.c. and fascist?

When fascism is the law of the land, that is how.  In 1938 Germany, it would be what is now termed "PC" to trumpet Aryan supremacy.  Just because that would not be PC now doesn't mean it wasn't PC in that environment.  

[bonobo]

 

We can thank the California Divorce Law (the one that was supposed be fair and equal) on good 'ol boy Sen. Pannetta. He just kept writting and adding until it was a complete mess. And "THEN" every other state followed.

Personally, I rather like the part of California family law which specifies that all the money I spent putting my ex through undergraduate and then medical school is owed back to me (called Epstein Credits.)  

[Camelot]

With no passport or evidence of a Thai visa?

[ozsamurai]

OP post in 2006

I agree - My pension, (beginning next year,) will be approx 24K - the rest of my income is investment- based, so will be variable. 400K deposit isn't a problem but (hopefully) it can be in CD's or an interest-bearing account - ? Seems like a lot of "hoops" but, as always, we all pay the price for the minority.

no sympathy here mate

oz

[Jingthing]

OP post in 2006

I agree - My pension, (beginning next year,) will be approx 24K - the rest of my income is investment- based, so will be variable. 400K deposit isn't a problem but (hopefully) it can be in CD's or an interest-bearing account - ? Seems like a lot of "hoops" but, as always, we all pay the price for the minority.

no sympathy here mate

oz

I don't take your meaning. 24K baht income? That's peanuts. 400K in bank. Also peanuts. Investment income? He didn't state his assets so you just assume he is loaded. Interesting.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Jingthing

[smokie36]

OP post in 2006

I agree - My pension, (beginning next year,) will be approx 24K - the rest of my income is investment- based, so will be variable. 400K deposit isn't a problem but (hopefully) it can be in CD's or an interest-bearing account - ? Seems like a lot of "hoops" but, as always, we all pay the price for the minority.

no sympathy here mate

oz

I don't take your meaning. 24K baht income? That's peanuts. 400K in bank. Also peanuts. Investment income? He didn't state his assets so you just assume he is loaded. Interesting.

If its baht he deserves our sympathy.

But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?

[malomker]

If its baht he deserves our sympathy.

But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?

I'd assume that's US dollars. 24k baht would be $60/month...a ludicrous figure. As far as assuming that he has some money, people without money generally don't talk about investment income (they'd have a savings account and those effectively aren't paying interest these days).

I'd be curious what the ages of the child & mother are, given that he's retirement age. Then again, police and military can retire after 20 years (in their late 30's).

Edited November 19, 2009 by malomker

[snuggzzz]

The issue of child support in the UK is pursed with relentless vigour. The CSA handle the case, if the mother elects or has been or is receipt of state benefits. The 'Father' who is mean tested pays 25% (after tax) of his salary for 1st child and I believe something like additional 15% of salary for next and additional children.

The arrears attract interest plus court expenses. To flee the UK owing large unpaid CSA payments, will I see leading to action by UK Embassies similar to the OP once it becomes law.

Whilst the CSA have not got there act together, if you fall under there gaze, you'll find that your only action is to return to the UK then work the outstanding balance off before a Passport is re-issued.

An emotive subject, this is the way it's going.......

[keemapoot]

One of the huge problems with the American system is the apportionment of alimony (spousal support) vs. child support. They were making big money at one time, but no longer make such money.

Many men have paid the child support for many years, but because of the malice or greed of the ex-wife have been tripped up on the alimony part.

These ex-wives, even if remarried and now rich, go to court to put the screws to their ex husbands, and then can invoke the draconian provisions as we've seen here where a passport is confiscated and a man is left in Thailand without any right to remain or go anywhere.

This penalty is truly worse than convicted felons. These are merely allegations and claims filed by the ex-wife. They have not been proved in any court of law.

A dam_n shame.

Edited November 19, 2009 by keemapoot

[Jingthing]

If its baht he deserves our sympathy.

But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?

I'd assume that's US dollars. 24k baht would be $60/month...a ludicrous figure. As far as assuming that he has some money, people without money generally don't talk about investment income (they'd have a savings account and those effectively aren't paying interest these days).

I'd be curious what the ages of the child & mother are, given that he's retirement age. Then again, police and military can retire after 20 years (in their late 30's).

Maybe he meant 24k baht per month? About 725 dollars. Not unusual for a social security check. The way that text was included, with the 400k Thai bank account mentioned which IS baht, why would a person change currencies. Of course 24k dollars per year is not wealthy either but its very good for Thailand. It is ludicrous to assume everyone with investment income is wealthy. You have to know the asset base, what the investments are, whether the value went up or down, etc. to make any such determination.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Jingthing

[Curt1591]

I would pack a smallish bag, and go to the embassy and politely ask for your passport back.

When refused point out that to leave the embassy property you will be in breach of Thai law by not having valid travel documents and visa or exemption to stay. Point out they cannot force you to break the law.

Sit quietly in a corner and watch what happens. (Offer to arrange a tent if they have no accommodation.) I would recommend also having a phone well charged with credit so you can ring your Thai and US lawyer as well as your local congressman and senator.

Unfortunately they may chose to summons the immigration police with this stand.

I'm sure there are "accommodations" at the embassy!

This matter needed to be resolved before "retirement" and leaving the States. I'm sure that was understood.

[GreenSnapper]

If you have a child here (as anywhere) you need to pay to support it.

Why do I get the impression you've been stupid and are now trying to run away from supporting YOUR child?

YOU married your former wife and have only recently realised her "unbridled greed". More fool you. You still need to look after your child.

Sorry, no sympathy whatsoever.

No need to insult the OP who is suffering from gender-racism as it is common in many Western countries.

"Child support" is actually "woman support". As the mother alone decides what will happen with the money. In rare cases this money actually goes to the child. More often it finances a affluent life style.

I feel with the OP and hope you get the things settled. Ignore the insults.

[Will27]

"quote"

I too, find this a bit unusual. An American diplomatic service involving itself into a personal and legal Thai domestic issue. A truely criminal offence could be justified, but a domestic squabble? And then retaining ones passport...?? Odd.

Not odd at all really.

A court order would have been

in place ordering that the passport

be confiscated. The embassy/consulate

would not have had the option.

Regards

Will

[BanTamo]

What does the child's requirements have to do with the OP's 'retirement' status or decision to live in Thailand? Didn't any of you posters grow up in a broken home? One in which there wasn't enough to go around? I sure hope the OP has been 'snipped'! Maybe the embassy ought to do THAT for him as well, given he doesn't appear to be able to think things through for himself!

[SoCal]

Op,

Same thing happened to an acquaintance here in Vietnam about 3 years ago.

His passport was not confiscated, but they refused to issue a new one at time of renewal.

They did offer him a letter, good for a one way return trip to the US.

He stayed for about three weeks, and didn't want to go, but was eventually forced to accept the letter by the Vietnamese authorities who were made aware of the situation, and told him he could not stay without a valid passport.

*You better check into this before you go home. Passport revocation is not the first step. You likely have an arrest warant for you at home as well.

This guy knew he had a warrant, so his ticket was to Florida, but he reamained in SFO upon entering. From there he negotiated the terms of repayment, and had the arrest warrant lifted.

He worked in the US doing construction until he paid off the past due, and was back in Vietnam about 2 years later.

Unfortunately, unless you have a lawyer, and money to pay, affraid you will be headed home.

Good luck with things.