Passport Confiscated At American Embassy

[geriatrickid]

I am having a good laugh on this, since a great deal of support for U.S. child support enforcement actions comes from "conservative" organizations.

Here is the California Republican Party's published position on Families & Children

- Families are the cornerstone of our culture. (Sep 2004)

- Support abstinence and fatherhood. (Aug 2000)

- Reduce child welfare caseloads & encourage adoption. (Aug 2000)

Golly gee. How do they propose reducing child welfare caseloads? Through the enforcement of child support orders. Hello, earth to people that call this a "liberal" conspiracy. Although many conservative evangelical groups have come out as strong supporters of child support enforcement orders, it is a position supported by groups that cut across all political positions, ethnic groups and socio-economic classes. Every major public interest group has supported the suspension of licenses, passports and other services.

Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.

Nice tie in to the arguments that were put up on the thread about the increase in Thai teen pregnancies where people were claiming it was a financial opportunity for women. Yea, right. When you have to worry about keeping a roof over a kid's head or putting food on the table, it's a real money maker.

[joorakee]

Reading topics like this restrains me from raising a family.

[TAWP]

We don't know the details of the case. You can't legally exist in Thailand without a passport, so yes, it does relate to Thailand. Interestingly, sympathy for a man abused by heavy handed government power is somewhat that I think both the left wingers like me AND the teabag lovers can find in common.

Nope. He needs to look after his kid.

The readers are trying to make this a child in Thailand issue (post 11 & 15) - that does not appear to be the case. That is what I mean with the non Thailand comment.

And I believe the UK has the same laws on there books now - deadbeats are no longer free to avoid legal obligations. So this is not just a US issue.

The fact of the matter is that is is a disgrace that the courts has come to this. What should be a civil case has through the perversion of the justice system in some states gone rogue and will now withhold the passport of a person over claims of outstanding payments of something that could fully well be the result of in first turn an extremely biased and slanted process, as divorce-cases seemingly are becoming in more states than California...

The government has no right to withhold the passport over civil matters. If it did, why not do it in ALL cases? Fact is that they wont and never will.

Clear typical gender biased nonsense.

[TAWP]

Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.

That is why there shouldn't be any tax-money used for it in the first place...

[grantbkk]

Wow! Some real diatribes on both sides here. In the USA holding the passport for ransom is simply a part of the Deadbeat Dad enforcement system. The OP can try to convince us that he is a victim here but much has gone on over a long period of time to get him to this point. Simply moving to Thailand does not give the OP immunity from responsibility. In truth he probably owes a considerable sum of back child support and has for a long time.

The ball is in the OP court. He will be allowed travel to the US to plead his case and negotiate a settlement compromise. If he cannot pay a payment schedule will be agreed to and signed. the OP may have to get a job or sell something to begin to pay up. Simply erasing the whole thing from one's mind will not work. After he gets his passport back he is free to travel to the Land of Smiles and resume his life's choices. This problem cannot be fixed in one day and since it has reached the point when he was being sought in a national computer base all other avenues to collect from a Deadbeat Dad had been exhausted. The system works.

[mizzi39]

I am having a good laugh on this, since a great deal of support for U.S. child support enforcement actions comes from "conservative" organizations.

Here is the California Republican Party's published position on Families & Children

- Families are the cornerstone of our culture. (Sep 2004)

- Support abstinence and fatherhood. (Aug 2000)

- Reduce child welfare caseloads & encourage adoption. (Aug 2000)

Golly gee. How do they propose reducing child welfare caseloads? Through the enforcement of child support orders. Hello, earth to people that call this a "liberal" conspiracy. Although many conservative evangelical groups have come out as strong supporters of child support enforcement orders, it is a position supported by groups that cut across all political positions, ethnic groups and socio-economic classes. Every major public interest group has supported the suspension of licenses, passports and other services.

Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.

Nice tie in to the arguments that were put up on the thread about the increase in Thai teen pregnancies where people were claiming it was a financial opportunity for women. Yea, right. When you have to worry about keeping a roof over a kid's head or putting food on the table, it's a real money maker.

After reading 3 pages of mostly bull <deleted> I am having a good laugh too. Being a tax payer myself, i am more fed up with my tax dollars going to big corporate businesses, and pork barrels but this is another issue in itself.

Now, back on topic. I totally agree that the OP is entitled to an emergency passport for travel and this should be honored as other posters have stated his status may be technically illegal at this point. Now with that out of the way, The OP has a financial responsibility to a child that he fathered in the States. If he was living in the States and working, his paycheck would be garnished and child support deducted, so this would not even be an issue.

Child support supposed to go to the child and the OP never mentioned anything about spousal support, so we need to assume at this point that he has skirted his obligation to his child for a long time while living in Thailand. It is also fair to assume that if the OP is living 12,500 miles away from his home country, he can both honor his responsibilities back home as well as here. If he is on a fixed income and cannot meet his responsibilities 12,500 miles away, then he really has no business being here. I think the legal term is called abandonment, but i am no lawyer.

Go home and get your <deleted> sorted out. No, the US is not Thailand, so no you cannot get a girl pregnant, have a baby, decide that things are not working out with you and mom, so therefore it is no longer your obligation to support your child, start a new live somewhere else and leave the financial burden on everyone one else (in this case the tax payer). No sympathy her either!

[Gary A]

The lesson here is that you cannot run away to Thailand to avoid paying child support. This exact thing happened to a friend of mine. In his case he wasn't guilty. He wrote his wife a check for the last six months that he owed because he was coming here to retire. The embassy gave him the proper paperwork to leave the country at the same time that they confiscated his passport. He was NOT stranded here.

If not for his daughter in the US, the one he was paying the support for, helping him, he would have no choice but to return to the US to straighten it out. His ex-wife wasn't about to try to help him. His ex-wife was pleased and thought it was funny.

It still cost him a bundle to straighten it out. There were many long phone calls from here to the US and an expensive US lawyer who ended up doing nothing.

[dsprtliving]

No sympathy here either. You played your part in bringing "your" child into the world, and shame on you for trying to find a way to continue not supporting it. It makes me so very thankful that i had a good father that actually took care of his responsibilities, no matter how tough the times got. Get the temporary travel documents, get yourself home and look after YOUR kid....surely the courts would work with you to sort something out in light of your change in income...

[MrRichard2009]

As Long as you don't straighten it out you will be liable for the amount, until the Judge changes it, better get it taken care of asap. They have no mercy when it comes to child support. Should they ?

[Jingthing]

This is a slippery slope. Today child support issues. Tomorrow, an old traffic ticket, an IRS conflict, or some other minor legal confusion back home that you may or may not be guilty of. On this issue, I am dragging out a teabag, this is a case where government is going too far. We like to think we are a free country. Freedom to travel and live abroad is one of those freedoms.

Also remember, the OP was only adding pages.

Those being cheerleaders for draconian passport confiscations, don't come cryin' to us when it happens to you!

Edited November 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

Several years ago, one of my employees in Saudi submitted his passport to the Riyadh US Embassy for new pages. The Embassy contacted me advising he was in arrears with his child support in the US and they would not release his passport until such time as the arrears had been paid.

The employee sent nearly $7,000 to his sister who took it to the courts in Pennsylvania. The courts then issued documents saying the employee was in compliance with his child support requirements and his passport was returned to the company for safekeeping.

The Embassy further told me if he failed to pay they would only provide him with a single time travel document to the US, and nowhere else. We had other forms of identification so his need to carry a passport was not there. I would think the BKK Embassy would give the OP some form of identification or letter attesting to the fact they are holding his passport if he requests one.

By the way, the act of Congress that requires this action on the part of the State Department was sponsored in the Senate by Senator Bill Bradley, a Democrat.

The law is known as The Bradley Amendment and was passed in 1986.

[a2396]

In case you haven't realized this, women rule the game back in USA. This law has been in effect for some time now. Quite switch from Thailand where most men skate off "scott free" after ditching a woman with their baby.

[Jingthing]

I am a democrat but not surprised this was started by a democrat. Bradley, Schmadley , sometimes these "do gooders" do go too far.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[lomatopo]

Title 22, Volume 1, Parts 1 to 299]

[Revised as of April 1, 1999]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 22CFR51.70]

[Page 252]

TITLE 22--FOREIGN RELATIONS

CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE

PART 51--PASSPORTS--Table of Contents

Subpart E--Limitation on Issuance or Extension of Passports

Sec. 51.70 Denial of passports.

(a) A passport, except for direct return to the United States, shall not be issued in any case in which the Secretary of State determines or is informed by competent authority that:

(1) The applicant is the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant of arrest for a felony, including a warrant issued under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act (18 U.S.C. 1073); or

(2) The applicant is subject to a criminal court order, condition of probation, or condition of parole, any of which forbids departure from the United States and the violation of which could result in the issuance of a Federal warrant of arrest, including a warrant issued under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act; or

(3) The applicant is subject to a court order committing him or her to a mental institution; or

(4) The applicant is the subject of a request for extradition or provisional arrest for extradition which has been presented to the government of a foreign country; or

(5) The applicant is the subject of a subpoena issued pursuant to section 1783 of title 28, United States Code, in a matter involving Federal prosecution for, or grand jury investigation of, a felony; or

(6) The applicant has not repaid a loan received from the United States as prescribed under Secs. 71.10 and 71.11 of this chapter; or

(7) The applicant is in default on a loan received from the United States to effectuate his or her return from a foreign country in the course of travel abroad; or

(8) The applicant has been certified by the Secretary of Health and Human Services as notified by a State agency under 42 U.S.C. 652(k) to be in arrears of child support in an amount exceeding $5,000.00. (note: I think this was reduced to $2,500.)

[Title 22, Volume 1]

[Revised as of April 1, 2005]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 22CFR51.75]

[Page 265-266]

TITLE 22--FOREIGN RELATIONS

CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE

PART 51_PASSPORTS--Table of Contents

Subpart E_Limitation on Issuance or Extension of Passports

Sec. 51.75 Notification of denial or withdrawal of passport.

[b]Any person whose application for issuance of a passport has been denied[/b], or who has otherwise been the subject of an adverse action taken on an individual basis with respect to his or her right to receive or use a passport [b]shall be entitled to notification in writing of the adverse action. The notification shall set forth the specific reasons for the adverse action and the procedures[/b]

[[Page 266]]

for review available under Sec. Sec. 51.81 through 51.105.

(22 U.S.C. 2658 and 3926)

[33 FR 12043, Aug. 24, 1968, as amended at 49 FR 16989, Apr. 23, 1984]

Dept. of HHS Passport Denial Service

The Passport Denial Program, which is part of the Federal Offset Program, is designed to help states enforce delinquent child support obligations. Under the program, noncustodial parents certified by a state as having arrearages exceeding $2,500 are submitted by the Federal Office of Child Support Enforcement (OCSE) to the Department of State (DoS), which denies them U.S. passports upon application or the use of a passport service. Noncustodial parents are not automatically removed from the Passport Denial Program even if their averages fall below the $2,500 threshold.

I have heard that there is now an IRS check and a (government-issued or backed)student loan check during passport renewals in the U.S.A., covered in 51.70 sec. 6. Mortgage defaults have also been rumored to be included.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, like I said, slippery slope. What's next and will it effect YOU?

[Tod Daniels]

This is FAR from an isolated case, and to my knowledge all the US Embassy's scattered around the world work off the same "confiscate passport" database for varying offenses.

The above mentioned US Embassies do issue emergency “one-way” travel documents to people in situations like this (I know because I just called ACS and asked them about it). That the O/P is now in violation of thai law is unfortunately NOT the problem of the US Embassy, but the O/P’s problem. ACS said he should have been well aware of the problem BEFORE surrendering his passport to them for whatever reason.

Because America is run more like a conglomeration of many small countries (BTW; in America we call them “states”), rather than like one BIG country; different states' laws and their ways of enforcing those laws create differing outcomes on a state by state basis. What is not a passport confiscating offense in one state may be in another.

Unfortunately, being a "Dead Beat Dad" tops the list on MANY states as far as targeted enforcement. I just Googled “Dead Beat Dad” lists for the US and see that MANY states maintain a current database of fathers who’ve failed to meet their financial obligations. It is not uncommon for people who run amok of the child-support system to not be able to renew even their driver's licenses. Wages are garnished; liens are placed on properties, etc. until the debt is satisfied.

I agree with many posters who mention this did not just spring up for the O/P and was a LONG time in coming down the proverbial pike. Certainly he was well aware of any earlier court proceedings outcome, as well as the implications and/or ramifications of simply not paying. Sadly moving to a pissant, shit-hole, third world country like this one doesn’t negate a debt or a person’s financial obligations in their home country. (Although many people who 'live below the radar' here pretend it does).

It's not rocket science, and the endless rhetoric from the various and sundry marginally learned posters about "is it right, is it wrong" is valueless at this point in time with this particular case. It already it is what it is. Hiding your head in the sand and/or gnashing your teeth at all that is wrong with the US legal system will not change it.

At this point in time the O/P has few if any viable options other than to suck it up and deal with it.

Edited November 20, 2009 by tod-daniels

[Jingthing]

I would agree the OP has no real choice but to leave Thailand. However, that doesn't mean we can't discuss whether the tactic of passport confiscations goes too far or not.

[Jdietz]

... that doesn't mean we can't discuss whether the tactic of passport confiscations goes too far or not.

Not Thailand related. Also not relevant except when you're a citizen of the land of the PC.

[Jingthing]

... that doesn't mean we can't discuss whether the tactic of passport confiscations goes too far or not.

Not Thailand related. Also not relevant except when you're a citizen of the land of the PC.

That's silly. The issue of American expats having their passports confiscated in Thailand is most certainly Thailand related. If you haven't noticed, there are many, many topics only of interest to specific national subsets of expats here.

[cooter]

I would agree the OP has no real choice but to leave Thailand. However, that doesn't mean we can't discuss whether the tactic of passport confiscations goes too far or not.

no, no no!

the question is does it work? nothing worse that fathers who dont wanna pay!

now the amount that should be paid could be argued, but $ spent in los should have gone to child support. too many will choose bargirls over their own kid, horrendous!

[MrRichard2009]

The Laws are pretty clear as the other poster put up. All of your "rights" are subject to being taken away for poor behavior. If people would simply obey the laws they would not have to worry, and yes that includes "minor" ofences. You only have rights if you obey the rules like it or not. How will it effect me ? It won't because I am willing to follow the rules in the things I chose to do .... like use my passport and travel. Passport confiscation happens to people presumed innocent already, often a condition for bail. Of Course it will happen to the already found guilty. With the advent of the internet I would suspect someday a 10 dollar unpaid parking ticket will keep someone from being able to get on a plane and fly overseas. Will that go to far ? Not really they should have paid the ticket already. Is it a lot more inconvience than the 10 dollar ticket ? Of course but shrking your respomsibilities always ends up costing more when you are finally caught up with. Whats the opposite side ? That it's only a little crime or debt so no need to bother ? Sure today if it's not worth the cost most places wont extradite ect ... But they will do more and more things like not allow you to get a DL or renew your passport or get on a plane for minor things as a way to get paid.

[Jingthing]

The above post pretty much proves my point. Slippery slope and there is a classic example of the kind of thinking that leads to that.

[MrRichard2009]

Actually my post proves my point not yours ..... you have yet to make any kind of compelling case for not confiscating passports of people who have broken the law.

[Jingthing]

Actually my post proves my point not yours ..... you have yet to make any kind of compelling case for not confiscating passports of people who have broken the law.

I think a line needs to be drawn. Wanted felons yes. Traffic tickets, IRS disputes, no. I have discussed this already on this thread.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[dudeinthailand]

I know from experience that it is not the wife or the lawyer that does this. It is the Child Support Enforcement Agency of the state you reside from. The embassy will issue you a 90 temporary passport. I had a three year overstay because if you go home you will be arrested for non-payment of child support. The problem is the state will base your child support on your last known income UNTIL you go and petition the court to change the amount. After about a year the state's CSEA will realize they have to jurisdiction in Thailand and you will be able to go and get issued a new passport regardless of payment or non-payment. I paid all of my back child support through the court and had the child support agreement revised based on my current income and I have not had any problems for the past two years. As always I would suggest paying the child support.

Goodluck.

Dudeinthailand

[medegen]

Wow reading this thread i didn't realize there were so many Deadbeat Dads on here. To the Deadbeat Dad OP you deserve more than just a passport confiscation. You need to be arrested and flown back home to spend some time in jail. They will only issue you an emergency passport back home where local police would be waiting to detain you. So have fun here while you can. Its either be caught here without a passport or face the music back home. For the other guys here that don't really understand. These types of guys ALWAYS play the victim, when in fact its their kids who are the victims.

[MrRichard2009]

I didn't get the feeling their were so many dead beat dads, but just people who feel sorry for lawbreakers in general. I guess some people have a soft spot for petty criminals and think they should be exempted because it's only a small crime. I guess I would say if you can afford a few thousand for a vacation overseas but chose not to pay your misdameanor court bills which are probably far less .... go cry to someone else. And yes everyone who gets screwed more than they had planned thinks it's someone elses fault, like the wife, the goverment, the judge, ect...... sometimes it is but not very often

[Ulysses G.]

I know too many women who purposely had children in order to get money from a hard working man. I am not one of these poor fellows, but I can see how it would be difficult to support someone who just used you for a paycheck.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I didn't get the feeling their were so many dead beat dads, but just people who feel sorry for lawbreakers in general. I guess some people have a soft spot for petty criminals and think they should be exempted because it's only a small crime. I guess I would say if you can afford a few thousand for a vacation overseas but chose not to pay your misdameanor court bills which are probably far less .... go cry to someone else. And yes everyone who gets screwed more than they had planned thinks it's someone elses fault, like the wife, the goverment, the judge, ect...... sometimes it is but not very often

We are ALL petty criminals. I can assure you every member on this board has broken one petty law or another at some time in their lives, and most probably lots of them. Overly restricting citizens right to travel, and having a passport is a basic requirement for that right, is something that totalitarian countries do. I consider overzealous policies to confiscate passports as an assault on our basic constitutional freedoms.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[MrRichard2009]

Breaking the law and not paying the price is different than settling your problems like a decent citizen, what public good does it serve to allow law scoffers to travel overseas before they clear their criminal warrants even is for petty crimes? It won't do the public or them any good.