Foreign Diver Found Dead In Patong

[Soupdragon]

Soupdragon, you are a diver! I can read this. Not a skin-diver but a scuba diver!

Master Scuba Diver Trainer. I teach skin diving and scuba.

[Scott]

My condolences to the friends and family. I hope they identify her soon and I hope we kept informed of any developments.

[webfact]

The missing BCD Air Tank or regulator doesn't mean NOTHING! Have you ever heard about "Skin Diving" or "Free Diving"? Having weights and a neopren suit is standard for this kind of snorkeling!

This is not meant as speculation but as a warning to inexperienced skin/free divers.

When skindiving it is common to take a few deep breaths prior to submerging. This lowers the carbon dioxide (CO2) level in the body. As it is the raised levels of CO2 in the body that occur when breath holding that triggers the urge to breath not the lack of oxygen this has the effect of being able to hold your breath for longer and stay submerged without the body telling you that you need to breath. Now as you dive and swim about the body consumes oxygen but the surrounding water pressure keeps the partial pressure (google the meaning) of O2 in the body within the limits but as you surface the water pressure decreases rapidly and so does the partial pressure of O2. If you hit the lower limit for partial pressure O2 you black out instantly without warning. This is known as shallow water blackout. Now if you are wearing weights to allow you to stay down easier it is very possible you will not surface and drown.

The message here is if you skin/free dive only take a couple of deep breaths before you dive and allow a long period betwen dives.

WELL DONE, YOU HAVE READ THE SCUBA BIBLE ON PHYSICS BUT I PERSONALLY THINK THE LADY WAS DOING SOME SNORKELING AND GOT INTO DIFFICULTIES, PANICKED FOR SOME REASON AND LOST MASK AND SNORKEL .

RIP AND CONDOLENCES TO YOUR LOVED ONES.

PS. WE STILL DON'T KNOW 100% THE PHYSICS OF DIVING.

ONE MORE THING COMES TO MIND, UNLESS YOU GO A LONG WAY OUT OF THE BAY, IT'S NOT REALLY DEEP ENOUGH FOR FREE DIVING.

PM send //webfact

[Dap]

i felt so very sad and lonely and alone.... for the family members....

my deepest condolences....

and we are a few hours away.... if any family member needs a quiet but well stocked place to stay and recollect, pls pm me

you all are entirely welcomed to stay with us for a while.

"Je doff mon chapeau." The most wonderful response. R.I.P

[jb5music]

She had a bandage sort of wrap on her knee in the Thai Photo. What would that be for?

Sort of shows a knowledge of athletics and sports as if the knee was wrapped do to heavy athletic use...

More like water skying.

appeared somewhat athletic looking and the wet suit looked expensive like it

belonged to her and she had very wisely picked it from years of

experience doing whatever it was she was doing. Doesn't look like someones wife. Possibly

looks like a permanent expat of which

single Falong women in Thailand are far rarer but many types like

Thailands retirement offerings?

[markg]

SUTEEF, WHY BOTHER COMING ON A FORUM WHICH IS FOR FREEDOM OF SPEACH AND SPECULATION, IF THAT'S WHAT MEMBERS WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN ON HERE, YOU MOVE ALONG MY FRIEND.

A friend of mine was recently killed in a motorcycle accident here in Thailand. The speculation that followed from TV members based WHOLLY upon an inaccurate news article, was distressing for his surviving, grieving friends and his family.

This is indeed a forum for freedom of speech, however, we are human beings, not beasts, are we not?

A modicum of civility, Sir, if you would.

Consider the feelings of friends and family of the deceased before speculating on what has been reported in newspapers - the veracity of which none of us can truly know.

[cognos]

@YORKSHIREPUD

After many years on the Internet, I have come to know that the only people who TYPE IN ALL CAPS on forums are either Nigerian e-mail scammers or mouth-breathing morons who cannot find the Caps Lock key on their computer.

Could you in future post in normal script, thus demonstrating basic motor intelligence -- alternatively <deleted> (4,3,4,2)

it would be great if people just stuck to the topic instead of incessant tangents/asides/irrelevant comments/segways/ fruitless putdowns/ego- boosting asides/puns/inappropriate humour/..a tragedy is a tragedy

[waza]

I have dived on paradise reef, it is 10 meters deep on the southern side of patong bay. Its a bit far to swim to from the beach and is normally accessed by long tail boat.

[antony77]

The missing BCD Air Tank or regulator doesn't mean NOTHING! Have you ever heard about "Skin Diving" or "Free Diving"? Having weights and a neopren suit is standard for this kind of snorkeling!

This is not meant as speculation but as a warning to inexperienced skin/free divers.

When skindiving it is common to take a few deep breaths prior to submerging. This lowers the carbon dioxide (CO2) level in the body. As it is the raised levels of CO2 in the body that occur when breath holding that triggers the urge to breath not the lack of oxygen this has the effect of being able to hold your breath for longer and stay submerged without the body telling you that you need to breath. Now as you dive and swim about the body consumes oxygen but the surrounding water pressure keeps the partial pressure (google the meaning) of O2 in the body within the limits but as you surface the water pressure decreases rapidly and so does the partial pressure of O2. If you hit the lower limit for partial pressure O2 you black out instantly without warning. This is known as shallow water blackout. Now if you are wearing weights to allow you to stay down easier it is very possible you will not surface and drown.

The message here is if you skin/free dive only take a couple of deep breaths before you dive and allow a long period betwen dives.

Soupdragon, you are a diver! I can read this. Not a skin-diver but a scuba diver!

Yes you are so wrong. You only need weights if you wear a wet suit. Your remarks about free diving are utter nonsense. In order to free dive you need to take a lot of deep breaths first. You don't need to rest between dives. I think the above comment is right. You must be a scuba diver, or referring to self contained oxygen apparatus. I am a free professional diver. I don't need scuba. I can dive to 35 meters and stay down 5 minutes. I have been free diving for 50 years, so I believe I know what I am talking about. It is dangerous because if you dive too deep you may not be able to surface. A free diver does not use weights because it would make it difficult to surface. The poor lady in question was not free diving but probably ditched her scuba tank. So Dive shops should be contacted to clarify the matter. I am hoping my comments can help.

[antony77]

Soupdragon, you are a diver! I can read this. Not a skin-diver but a scuba diver!

Master Scuba Diver Trainer. I teach skin diving and scuba.

Why do you need SCUBA if you are a skin diver? I never use it. It is cumbersome and frightens all the fish away.

Skindivers don't use SCUBA.

[h90]

Wearing weights but no "oxygen" tank? I assume that means no BC or regulator, too. So, an inexperienced diver panicked and removed her BC and air supply but forgot to ditch the lead. And a dive operator too scared to admit he lost a tourist.

or a free diver. They have weight belts

[h90]

The missing BCD Air Tank or regulator doesn't mean NOTHING! Have you ever heard about "Skin Diving" or "Free Diving"? Having weights and a neopren suit is standard for this kind of snorkeling!

This is not meant as speculation but as a warning to inexperienced skin/free divers.

When skindiving it is common to take a few deep breaths prior to submerging. This lowers the carbon dioxide (CO2) level in the body. As it is the raised levels of CO2 in the body that occur when breath holding that triggers the urge to breath not the lack of oxygen this has the effect of being able to hold your breath for longer and stay submerged without the body telling you that you need to breath. Now as you dive and swim about the body consumes oxygen but the surrounding water pressure keeps the partial pressure (google the meaning) of O2 in the body within the limits but as you surface the water pressure decreases rapidly and so does the partial pressure of O2. If you hit the lower limit for partial pressure O2 you black out instantly without warning. This is known as shallow water blackout. Now if you are wearing weights to allow you to stay down easier it is very possible you will not surface and drown.

The message here is if you skin/free dive only take a couple of deep breaths before you dive and allow a long period betwen dives.

Soupdragon, you are a diver! I can read this. Not a skin-diver but a scuba diver!

Yes you are so wrong. You only need weights if you wear a wet suit. Your remarks about free diving are utter nonsense. In order to free dive you need to take a lot of deep breaths first. You don't need to rest between dives. I think the above comment is right. You must be a scuba diver, or referring to self contained oxygen apparatus. I am a free professional diver. I don't need scuba. I can dive to 35 meters and stay down 5 minutes. I have been free diving for 50 years, so I believe I know what I am talking about. It is dangerous because if you dive too deep you may not be able to surface. A free diver does not use weights because it would make it difficult to surface. The poor lady in question was not free diving but probably ditched her scuba tank. So Dive shops should be contacted to clarify the matter. I am hoping my comments can help.

I doubt your experience! You know what "a wearing a black wetsuit with a blue stripe" means? No weight...extreme hard to dive. That someone is diving with oxygen is very uncommon. So I doubt the rest what you wrote.

[sharecropper]

It is perfectly reasonable to speculate on these threads, but within the bounds of "reasonableness". It is certainly more interesting than reading many fatuous RIP/condolence posts no matter how well-meaning they are. They should be banned. It's like signing books of condolence. Where's the point on a discussion board?

There should be an ASSUMPTION that everyone posting is proffering their condolences, then nobody would have to say it.

If there was a real problem TV should just post the news item and not allow ANY comment on it.

[ScubaBuddha]

Anyone who uses the word "oxygen" to describe scuba tanks knows nothing about diving (Phuket Gazette, antony77, h90)

Soupdragon, entirely accurate description of shallow water blackout, but you knew that. Thank you.

Please PLEASE don't lets have a discussion or speculation about how this poor woman met her tragic death.

The ONLY facts that are known is that a middle-aged Caucasian woman wearing a wet suit is dead.

Can we just leave it at that for the moment?

RIP and condolences to the family.

Actually, I noticed a few things from the photos that I hope investigators will as well. I am not going to suggest that any of these lead us to think one thing or another, only observations.

Her weight belt appears to be donned with a right hand release, something only a scuba diver is taught. It has also slipped to the left.

Take a look at the the size of her fins. Their small size suggest to me they are likely snorkeling fins. Scuba fins are usually bigger. And some serious freedivers use really long fins.

I think she is wearing an older Mares Tropic 2 or 3mm shorty, possibly a front zip. Possibly a model made specifically for rental fleets. At first I thought it looked like her wetsuit was on backwards, as most suits have a seam up the middle of the buttocks, not up the middle in front, and due to the fact that it looks like there is a open zipper running down her front, and most shortys have a zipper in back, but then the logo on the right thigh changed my mind. Unless that Mares logo is supposed to be on the left rear thigh, (which I doubt) but if it is, then her suit is on backwards.

She does not appear to be wearing a dive watch or wrist dive computer.

Also possibly relevant is the fact that the owners of the land around Paradise Beach charge for access to the beach. If she left from the beach, she likely interacted with locals before doing so.

Again, not making any suggestions, just observations.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[anais]

Doesn't look like someones wife. Possibly

looks like a permanent expat of which

single Falong women in Thailand are far rarer but many types like

Thailands retirement offerings?

"Doesn't look like someone's wife." Hmmm DOESN'T LOOK LIKE SOMEONE'S WIFE.

Because, as well all know, ALL "wives" have a certain look. ThaiVisa never fails to educate.

[eggomaniac]

It is perfectly reasonable to speculate on these threads, but within the bounds of "reasonableness". It is certainly more interesting than reading many fatuous RIP/condolence posts no matter how well-meaning they are. They should be banned. It's like signing books of condolence. Where's the point on a discussion board?

There should be an ASSUMPTION that everyone posting is proffering their condolences, then nobody would have to say it.

If there was a real problem TV should just post the news item and not allow ANY comment on it.

Yes, I was thinking along these lines. It was very Troll like to interupt a Forum Thread and attack those who were expressing legit thoughts of curiosity and conjecture around this tragic news story. Even if you WANT to call comments 'speculation'; there was nothing that was disrespectful or 'out of bounds'.

Instead of ruining a thread Brewska should have hit the Report button, only there was NOTHING to Report!

[brahmburgers]

Anyone who uses the word "oxygen" to describe scuba tanks knows nothing about diving (Phuket Gazette, antony77, h90)

Soupdragon, entirely accurate description of shallow water blackout, but you knew that. Thank you.

Please PLEASE don't lets have a discussion or speculation about how this poor woman met her tragic death.

The ONLY facts that are known is that a middle-aged Caucasian woman wearing a wet suit is dead.

Can we just leave it at that for the moment?

RIP and condolences to the family.

Actually, I noticed a few things from the photos that I hope investigators will as well. I am not going to suggest that any of these lead us to think one thing or another, only observations.

Her weight belt appears to be donned with a right hand release, something only a scuba diver is taught. It has also slipped to the left.

Take a look at the the size of her fins. Their small size suggest to me they are likely snorkeling fins. Scuba fins are usually bigger. And some serious freedivers use really long fins.

I think she is wearing an older Mares Tropic 2 or 3mm shorty, possibly a front zip. Possibly a model made specifically for rental fleets. At first I thought it looked like her wetsuit was on backwards, as most suits have a seam up the middle of the buttocks, not up the middle in front, and due to the fact that it looks like there is a open zipper running down her front, and most shortys have a zipper in back, but then the logo on the right thigh changed my mind. Unless that Mares logo is supposed to be on the left rear thigh, (which I doubt) but if it is, then her suit is on backwards.

She does not appear to be wearing a dive watch or wrist dive computer.

Also possibly relevant is the fact that the owners of the land around Paradise Beach charge for access to the beach. If she left from the beach, she likely interacted with locals before doing so. Again, not making any suggestions, just observations.

Your sorts of observations are from a farang perspective. In other words, they use deductive thinking process that's recommended for investigators. In contrast, Thai authorities involved will most likely have a thoughts somewhat like this:

"Oh, this could look bad for tourism if it's publicised. We should find out who this farang is, but by all means, keep a lid on it."

As for probing/thinking deeper about (or pursuing) possible clues, particularly any that might implicate Thais (dive shop owners, etc) for wrongdoing, ....doubtful.

For added examples of Thai investigators not investigating, go check out the case of the two farang women who mysteriously died in May at the Phi Phi guest house - or the farang woman who died along the Krabi beach a month later. ....or the individual men tourists who mysteriously died in that same region during spring/summer 2009.

[nakachalet]

brahmburgers

if you can provide some details in ref to those cases you cited, i'll be glad to do my best to followup....

[lopburi3]

Several flame posts have been removed.

[MUYTHAI]

I agree about the conjecture. However, I also feel 'brainstorming' scenarios surrounding her death may also produce some kind of conclusion.

Unfortunately to "brainstorm" people actually require brains to storm with in the first place, said brains are generally lacking in the population known as Thai Visa forums, who are generally more prone to speculation, passing judgemental opinions based on their own narrowed minded bia's or generally just making it up as they go along..

The kettle calling the pot black. Do you really believe the family would be offended by people brainstorming on this site...that is, if they even read these posts? Investigators brainstorm. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people brainstorming this particular case. It is not offensive... except to the politically correct wimps and immature folks here on TV.

RIP fellow diver.

[dude007]

Soupdragon, you are a diver! I can read this. Not a skin-diver but a scuba diver!

Master Scuba Diver Trainer. I teach skin diving and scuba.

Why do you need SCUBA if you are a skin diver? I never use it. It is cumbersome and frightens all the fish away.

Skindivers don't use SCUBA.

Definitely the best quote of the day...

[fullcave]

that's a tragedy. I wonder if they have contacted all the dive shops. RIP

Sounds like a free diving accident. The weights are to compensate for the buoyancy created by the wetsuit. Standard procedure just need to be sure you have enough air to get back to the surface. Or she could have blacked out on the way to the surface "deep water blackout".

[h90]

Anyone who uses the word "oxygen" to describe scuba tanks knows nothing about diving (Phuket Gazette, antony77, h90)

Soupdragon, entirely accurate description of shallow water blackout, but you knew that. Thank you.

Please PLEASE don't lets have a discussion or speculation about how this poor woman met her tragic death.

The ONLY facts that are known is that a middle-aged Caucasian woman wearing a wet suit is dead.

Can we just leave it at that for the moment?

RIP and condolences to the family.

Actually, I noticed a few things from the photos that I hope investigators will as well. I am not going to suggest that any of these lead us to think one thing or another, only observations.

Her weight belt appears to be donned with a right hand release, something only a scuba diver is taught. It has also slipped to the left.

Take a look at the the size of her fins. Their small size suggest to me they are likely snorkeling fins. Scuba fins are usually bigger. And some serious freedivers use really long fins.

I think she is wearing an older Mares Tropic 2 or 3mm shorty, possibly a front zip. Possibly a model made specifically for rental fleets. At first I thought it looked like her wetsuit was on backwards, as most suits have a seam up the middle of the buttocks, not up the middle in front, and due to the fact that it looks like there is a open zipper running down her front, and most shortys have a zipper in back, but then the logo on the right thigh changed my mind. Unless that Mares logo is supposed to be on the left rear thigh, (which I doubt) but if it is, then her suit is on backwards.

She does not appear to be wearing a dive watch or wrist dive computer.

Also possibly relevant is the fact that the owners of the land around Paradise Beach charge for access to the beach. If she left from the beach, she likely interacted with locals before doing so.

Again, not making any suggestions, just observations.

As I told! Very uncommon very uncommon to dive with oxygen due to the deep limit of 6-7 meter....

[ScubaBuddha]

As I told! Very uncommon very uncommon to dive with oxygen due to the deep limit of 6-7 meter....

Oh I see...you were entertaining the thought that she was a tech diver then. They are the only ones that use pure oxygen. The likelihood of that being the case is very very close to zero, but not impossible I suppose. Remember the reason the word "oxygen" was brought into this discussion was because PG wrongly, as many non-divers do, say "oxygen tank" not understanding that it 99% of the time a scuba tank contains regular air, roughly 21% oxygen and 79% nitrogen. Unless it's NITROX in which case it has a little less nitrogen. (There are also mixes called TRIMIX and HILIOX) Anyway, they still aren't called oxygen tanks even if they have pure oxygen in them. They are still scuba tanks. Oxygen tanks, used in medical emergencies and for people with COPD are usually painted green and can be found in ambulances hospitals, and sometimes on dive boats.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[ScubaBuddha]

She had a bandage sort of wrap on her knee in the Thai Photo. What would that be for?

Sort of shows a knowledge of athletics and sports as if the knee was wrapped do to heavy athletic use...

More like water skying.

appeared somewhat athletic looking and the wet suit looked expensive like it

belonged to her and she had very wisely picked it from years of

experience doing whatever it was she was doing. Doesn't look like someones wife. Possibly

looks like a permanent expat of which

single Falong women in Thailand are far rarer but many types like

Thailands retirement offerings?

Wow some bazarre comments in there. Doesn't look like someones wife? <deleted>

The "bandage" you comment on is in fact her own skin sluffing off. This happens after many hours/days submerged in water. I luckily have never seen a floater up close, but had to see plenty of photos in EMT school.

[Samuian]

If she had been in the water for two days, why was no missing person report filed? Surely somebody must have noticed she wasn't around any more?

Same thoughts came up when I read this story, you got a point there somewhere.... why!

May she RIP!

[h90]

As I told! Very uncommon very uncommon to dive with oxygen due to the deep limit of 6-7 meter....

Oh I see...you were entertaining the thought that she was a tech diver then. They are the only ones that use pure oxygen. The likelihood of that being the case is very very close to zero, but not impossible I suppose. Remember the reason the word "oxygen" was brought into this discussion was because PG wrongly, as many non-divers do, say "oxygen tank" not understanding that it 99% of the time a scuba tank contains regular air, roughly 21% oxygen and 79% nitrogen. Unless it's NITROX in which case it has a little less nitrogen. (There are also mixes called TRIMIX and HILIOX) Anyway, they still aren't called oxygen tanks even if they have pure oxygen in them. They are still scuba tanks. Oxygen tanks, used in medical emergencies and for people with COPD are usually painted green and can be found in ambulances hospitals, and sometimes on dive boats.

No I am not, antony77 (who claimed to be a specialist) is speaking about the oxygen, I just repeat that they are very uncommon (and mean it is not probable that she used one).

yes: only in technical diving (deco gas), re-breather with deep limits of 7 meter, very outdated (50 year) systems (developed/used from Hans Hass), some submarine rescue equipment, some extreme free diver fill their lungs with pure oxygen.

All that is not common so I doubt that antony77 has an idea about diving.

[the_webninja]

Following is a link to the report in the Thai press, with images of the corpse. Pretty gory, but perhaps it can help in the identification process.

View at your own discretion.

http://www.siangtai.com/TH/newspage1_detai...p?News_ID=24101

Sorry, I don't see any Pics on that link, I also noticed that people who tried to post the Pics directly in this Forum have had the Pics removed. Lots of TALK about Pics, but I don't see any pics. Just thought I'd let you know.

[ScubaBuddha]

As I told! Very uncommon very uncommon to dive with oxygen due to the deep limit of 6-7 meter....

Oh I see...you were entertaining the thought that she was a tech diver then. They are the only ones that use pure oxygen. The likelihood of that being the case is very very close to zero, but not impossible I suppose. Remember the reason the word "oxygen" was brought into this discussion was because PG wrongly, as many non-divers do, say "oxygen tank" not understanding that it 99% of the time a scuba tank contains regular air, roughly 21% oxygen and 79% nitrogen. Unless it's NITROX in which case it has a little less nitrogen. (There are also mixes called TRIMIX and HILIOX) Anyway, they still aren't called oxygen tanks even if they have pure oxygen in them. They are still scuba tanks. Oxygen tanks, used in medical emergencies and for people with COPD are usually painted green and can be found in ambulances hospitals, and sometimes on dive boats.

No I am not, antony77 (who claimed to be a specialist) is speaking about the oxygen, I just repeat that they are very uncommon (and mean it is not probable that she used one).

yes: only in technical diving (deco gas), re-breather with deep limits of 7 meter, very outdated (50 year) systems (developed/used from Hans Hass), some submarine rescue equipment, some extreme free diver fill their lungs with pure oxygen.

All that is not common so I doubt that antony77 has an idea about diving.

That was my point, that you and antony77 both have no idea what your talking about. Google can be a very scary thing in the wrong hands.

[ScubaBuddha]

Following is a link to the report in the Thai press, with images of the corpse. Pretty gory, but perhaps it can help in the identification process.

View at your own discretion.

http://www.siangtai.com/TH/newspage1_detai...p?News_ID=24101

Sorry, I don't see any Pics on that link, I also noticed that people who tried to post the Pics directly in this Forum have had the Pics removed. Lots of TALK about Pics, but I don't see any pics. Just thought I'd let you know.

The link doesn't work if you copy and past it after it has been truncated, as thaivisa does sometimes, or maybe something wrong with thaivisa's forwarding system. If clicking on the below hotlink doesn't work, then try cutting and pasting the link between the < and > directy into your browser.

http://www.siangtai.com/TH/newspage1_detai...p?News_ID=24101

<http://www.siangtai.com/TH/newspage1_detail.php?News_ID=24101>

Very annoying and, I don't know, a bit distasteful to animate the pics like they do on the siangtai website.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Scubabuddha