"high Speed Thai" System

[Bel Mondo]

Just visited www.highspeedthai.com and was wondering if anyone has had experience with this course.

It seems like a well thought out structure. But it is a bit expensive. I have tried several methods before and would like an opinion before I spend the money.

Thanks

[vincentv]

Check /forum/High-Speed-Thai-t309537.html&p=3107714#entry3107714

Sorry can't post urls

[SoftWater]

For the sake of transparency, if I'm not much mistaken, vincentv (the poster above) is also the author and seller of 'Highspeedthai'. Isn't that right?

I haven't checked the forum link, but I assume it will be complimentary?

(Incidentally, vincent, if that's the thaivisa forum link you CAN link to it. As I understand it, it's only off-site URL's that are officially prohibited.)

Edited December 8, 2009 by SoftWater

[vincentv]

Yes that is me, it is a ThaiVisa link that answers the users post. The post is from another Thaivisa user. You can see in that post I clearly state who I am. And no, I can not post the full link.

[Tywais]

(Incidentally, vincent, if that's the thaivisa forum link you CAN link to it. As I understand it, it's only off-site URL's that are officially prohibited.)

Actually no, members need at least 5 posts to post any URL as a spam prevention measure.

[someoneelse]

I think with less than 5 posts you can't post any URLs at all.

I was thinking of buying High Speed Thai, but something put me off with the sample videos on the site (the second video in the section titled "Learn How To Read Thai Video").

It goes through a couple of syllables, บาบ and จาก and explains the how the final consonants are pronounced.

On บาบ :

"...both the consonants make a 'b' sound ... you will notice that it is hard to hear the consonant at the end of the word. This is because that when a consonant is placed at the end of a word, it is pronounced with less emphasis than it would be if it were placed at the start of a word."

On จาก :

"... The last consonant makes a 'g' sound, so the word is read as 'jahg'"

My Teach Yourself Thai books explains it differently. That is, "the sounds that can occur at the end of Thai words are limited and so certain letters change their pronunciation when they occur at the end of a word." In particular, บ and ก make unreleased 'p' and 'k' sounds respectively as final consonants.

I like the second explanation better, and if there is such a glaring error in the sample material, I have to ask myself what's going to be wrong with the rest of it. But... might it be a valid way of explaining how final consonants are supposed to sound? Alternatively, is it a simple explanation for beginners which is clarified in later lessons?

[vincentv]

You are correct. The video is a very very very simple demonstration of the basics. It only attempts to give one a quick idea of how learning to read Thai does not have to be hard.

The actual material goes it to much greater depth and explains everything in great detail. You will also find that the reading section is made up of hundreds of small clips in which you will hear every possible ending sound being utilized. And importantly a native speaker narrates the text.

The audio clips are presented in Anki, a spaced repetition testing tool that allows you to very effectively practice concepts that you learn. After you have learnt to read you will then go on to listen to 70hrs + of audio spoken by a native Thai speaker which will further help you to get a feeling of the sounds in the Thai language.

Rather than trying to match Thai sounds with English sounds it is always better to listen to the pronunciation of a Thai native speaker. The system tries to encourage one to use his ears, this is why so much audio has been included in the system.

[vincentv]

Couple more posts from TV users : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Highspeedthaicom-t322009.html

[ChiangMaiFun]

I now have the course - but I actually only wanted to 'speak' and understand Thai rather than worry about reading and writing... the course looks very good but doesn't allow me to easily bypass the bits I don't want - I know many people here who converse in Thailand understand Thai but cannot read or write it - at this stage I cannot see how this course can do this... but it's early days...

[meadish_sweetball]

Your understanding will be more complete if you do bother to learn how to read, and it gives you a key to building new vocabulary much faster than you would otherwise be able to do - it really makes sense.

Remembering vocabulary is easy when you can ask people to write it down, or write it down yourself. It's considerably more difficult for most people to correctly hear and then remember words they've only heard spoken and have not seen in writing.

The quirks of Thai with 'silent finals', contracted initial consonant clusters and tones matter here: when you hear a word in conversation it's easy to mishear what the final or tone should be, plus casually spoken Thai leaves out letters that are used in writing and more formal pronunciation. If you learn the formal way first it'll be easier for you to adjust your speech towards casual for situations when it is required.

It can be done the other way too of course, I just think this way makes more sense.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Your understanding will be more complete if you do bother to learn how to read, and it gives you a key to building new vocabulary much faster than you would otherwise be able to do - it really makes sense.

Remembering vocabulary is easy when you can ask people to write it down, or write it down yourself. It's considerably more difficult for most people to correctly hear and then remember words they've only heard spoken and have not seen in writing.

The quirks of Thai with 'silent finals', contracted initial consonant clusters and tones matter here: when you hear a word in conversation it's easy to mishear what the final or tone should be, plus casually spoken Thai leaves out letters that are used in writing and more formal pronunciation. If you learn the formal way first it'll be easier for you to adjust your speech towards casual for situations when it is required.

It can be done the other way too of course, I just think this way makes more sense.

I'm sure you are right... but I am not worried about writing and reading - I have a friend here who speaks perfect Thai - Thai's think he is Thai until they meet him! - cannot read or write Thai at all - I don't want to go back to Uni but just converse...

[mojaco]

I'm sure you are right... but I am not worried about writing and reading - I have a friend here who speaks perfect Thai - Thai's think he is Thai until they meet him! - cannot read or write Thai at all - I don't want to go back to Uni but just converse...

Four things about learning to speak Thai:

1) Some have inate ability to quickly learn/speak fluently - others don't. Sounds like your friend is one of those special people. I saw this great difference in my classmates years ago (I was in the struggling group.)

2) Ability to hear subtle tones is critical. One of my classmates gave up in despair after 4 months because he simply could not hear the tones (tone deaf).

3) Our native learning modes are different: Some learn best by listening, some visually, some tactically, etc. I am visual, so I need to see and remember the word written in Thai (I am a visual learner), others don't need to do this because they can learn simply by hearing the word. So you will have to find out what works best for you. You may need to learn using visual helps, and so need to learn to read Thai.

4) Talk-talk-talk to Thai people all day long, even though a struggle. Many cannot become fluent because they are shy about talking to Thai people in their halting/broken Thai, and so don't seek opportunities to speak to Thai people (taxi drivers, waiters, strangers, etc.)

Edited December 27, 2009 by mojaco

[Ratsima]

I just got this course and have hit a roadblock at the section where you're supposed to distinguish between mid and low tones. They really sounded the same to me so I did a frequency analysis of two .mp3 files; one representing a mid-tone and the other representing a low tone. They even look the same to me:

.

Mid

.

Low

Am I supposed to hear a difference in tone between these two?

[meadish_sweetball]

Those two diagrams are indeed very similar. Even Thais can sometimes mistake a mid tone from a low tone and vice versa, when they are spoken in isolation.

The 'super correct' low tone often has a special 'creaking' quality to it which may not show up using the type of pitch analysis you used. The creakiness would be produced by tensing up your lower jaw/throat and pulling in your chin a little. It is not always evident, and the more casual the speech gets, the less audible, but it's something I use, in conjunction with a lower pitch, to distinguish the two tones.

If you listen to the tones again, not only for pitch, but also for a difference in voice quality, is there such a difference in this case?

(Thinking about it a little further, it is possible this creakiness is just a natural by-product of a person trying to pronounce something at the lowest possible pitch of their voice range.)

[Ratsima]

I don't hear any difference in voice quality. I had my wife listen to both tones and she got both wrong. I then had her listen to a number of the low and mid tone words in this lesson and she got about 50% correct. They all sound the same to me.

(Edit: The speaker in the lesson is female and has what I would call a high-pitched voice.)

Edited January 16, 2010 by Ratsima

[meadish_sweetball]

Since I don't have the audio files to compare myself it's hard to say anything more useful on the topic.

Since Thai people generally do not tend to consciously think in terms of 'low tone' or 'mid tone' it is possible your wife is confused by the terminology and not only the voice... but it could also be that the difference is as undetectable as you say.

[Parvis]

Let me ask an "ignorant question":

Midtones - hightones - lowtones are all different between individuals speakers - correct?

Therefore - if the above is correct - you can only identify rising tones and falling tones correctly without fail - because by definition they are produced be the same speaker. Correct???????????

[Parvis]

Let me ask an "ignorant question":

Midtones - hightones - lowtones are all different between individuals speakers - correct?

Therefore - if the above is correct - you can only identify rising tones and falling tones correctly without fail - because by definition they are produced be the same speaker. Correct???????????

[meadish_sweetball]

Midtones - hightones - lowtones are all different between individuals speakers - correct?

Yes, correct, they differ between individuals, because individual voice ranges differ.

Therefore - if the above is correct - you can only identify rising tones and falling tones correctly without fail - because by definition they are produced be the same speaker. Correct?

No, not entirely. The high, mid and low tones are not constant and flat in pitch. It's a common belief that they are, but it is not correct. The mid tone and low tone are as close to constant as you get, but they are not entirely similar as you can see from below.

The high tone is even more distinct, for most of its duration, it describes a rising line. So it should probably be referred to as 'high/rising' (or, high rising/falling if you take the dip at the end into account).

It is distinct from the rising tone in that the 'rising tone' actually starts by falling, and then rises sharply in pitch. The high tone on the other hand, starts high and rises slowly in pitch, striving toward the top of the speaker's natural voice range, and then drops a little at the end.

The curves in the following picture describe the tones:

[katana]

I just got this course and have hit a roadblock at the section where you're supposed to distinguish between mid and low tones. They really sounded the same to me so I did a frequency analysis of two .mp3 files; one representing a mid-tone and the other representing a low tone. They even look the same to me:

.

Mid

.

Low

Am I supposed to hear a difference in tone between these two?

Hi Ratsima,

On your graphs you seem to have frequency on the X-axis. What's on the Y-axis?

Also, how did you produce them?

[Parvis]

Thank you for your information. I can see again that a rising tone starts by falling and a falling tone starts by rising - since the pitch changes - fairly significantly - they should be comparitively easy to understand and produce.

The other 3 tones I again see as more difficult to identify - particularily between speakers - if taken out of context.

Tx

Edited January 16, 2010 by Parvis

[Ratsima]

On your graphs you seem to have frequency on the X-axis. What's on the Y-axis?

Amplitude

Also, how did you produce them?

Audacity

[meadish_sweetball]

Thank you for your information. I can see again that a rising tone starts by falling and a falling tone starts by rising - since the pitch changes - fairly significantly - they should be comparitively easy to understand and produce.

The other 3 tones I again see as more difficult to identify - particularily between speakers - if taken out of context.

Tx

Between the low and mid tone there is a problem in such cases, as has been said.

For the high tone, not so. Even though it looks fairly similar on the graph, in reality the slow rise it describes is unique enough that one will not mistake it for a mid tone.

[Parvis]

According to what you described "Hightone" should be identifyable without needing a "reference" - but it may also depend on your ears ability to distinguish this "small change in pitch" which you are relying on to be able to identify it.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Parvis

[Ratsima]

How much time should I spend?

One of the exercises in HighSpeedThai is a series of sound files of one syllable words. You're supposed to listen and then indicate which of the five tones the word has. I've spent hours at this and just can't identify the tones. I've gone through the exercise enough times now that I've memorized the right answer, even though I can't hear it.

Is being able to identify the tone of a single syllable word spoken in isolation a valuable skill to have, or should I move on?

[meadish_sweetball]

How much time should I spend?

One of the exercises in HighSpeedThai is a series of sound files of one syllable words. You're supposed to listen and then indicate which of the five tones the word has. I've spent hours at this and just can't identify the tones. I've gone through the exercise enough times now that I've memorized the right answer, even though I can't hear it.

Is being able to identify the tone of a single syllable word spoken in isolation a valuable skill to have, or should I move on?

The skill is useful, but it sounds like this exercise is not giving you anything at the moment, so why not move on to something else for a while.

Prehaps come back to the exercise after a few days-a week, and then when you go back to it, do it for 20 minutes per day instead of several hours straight. Your brain needs variation.

Here's a girl who does very clear tones, by the way:

[Ratsima]

^Thanks for the link. She's pretty good and has a few other videos as well.

I'm determined...

[Ratsima]

So, I've moved on. I listened to a number of pronunciation videos on YouTube and I've continued with the exercises on HighSpeedThai.

The bottom line is that I simply cannot hear the differences between the tones. The last HST exercise that I tried was one syllable words using all 5 tones. The best I can do is maybe 3 or 4 out of 45 words presented and that's just by guessing. I hear what I think is a low tone, but it's actually rising. I hear what I think is a mid tone, but it's actually falling.

Bear in mind that I've been at this study of Thai for 13 years now. I can read a fair bit and have a small but solid vocabulary. My ability to communicate orally is nil.

I want to be able to talk to people.

What should I do?

[longway]

Going by my experience, using the same course, and generally, you should not try to listen too hard for differences, I mean dont strain at it. The tones are quite subtle, some days I can pick out tones quite easily, other days, like you, I just cannot hear the them. I found that by relaxing and not making a conscious effort to pick out the tones helps me, and can put me back in the zone, so to speak. Try with the easier tones first too, and less of them. Trying to pick out 5 tones when you are just not getting it is probably not a good idea.

BTW, if you have not done so, record your voice when tryng to speak thai, listening to yourself really helps alot. Finally, a while ago I was given a fantastic tip as I could not reproduce tones at all. Dont use your throat to generate the sound (and again dont strain at it), you have to find your 'voice', use your diaphragm, google on it, thai is in some ways like singing.

I hope this helps in some way.

I am pretty bad at spoken thai, and hearing, it getting better slowly. It would be interesting to hear others thoughts on this, especially those who have really got to frips with the tones.

One more thing, I found if I cannot make out a tone, then repeating the word I have just heard, helps me realise what tone it is.

Edited January 20, 2010 by longway

[hawthorne]

I have always had great intentions of learning my wife's native tongue....but dam after hearing all of the techno speak on how to speak Thai. I give up before trying. I ain't that smart