Ed Visa Crackdown

[Luciano1860]

...So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off?

Hey mate, no linguist to be sure, but I had a Ed Visa from Pro Language at Times Square and took it seriously enough. I went to class, did the homework, practiced at every chance and feel like I can carry on conversations in areas of daily life quite nicely.

I am 50, not young, but if you apply yourself, you can learn to speak Thai. I have a retirement Visa now, but have continue to study. The trick is learning to speak AND read/write for the testing.

The 90 day extensions by design have always claimed to have a testing element, but was never enforced in my case. The challenge came when I wanted to apply for Year 2 - this test is conducted at The Ministry of Ed by their staff and includes a verbal AND written test.

I made a conscience decision not to overload my mind with the reading and focus on speaking. But I believe now this was a mistake, as any hope for an Ed Visa beyond the first year is tied to the full course of study.

Well best of luck, the Ed Visa is still a breeze compared to other visas I've had...you need to do the work, and it WILL pay dividends. It is so cool to be able to chat-up friends in their language, they appreciate it as well...well worth the effort.

[Luxius]

ps: americans and brits have it so much more easy to learn a new language

as they only speak english in general

in my case, Thai is/would be my 5th language ...

as where english is my 3rd...

any consideration ???

I don't find this true at all, and I base it on my experience with speaking Thai with Americans - who in particular have difficulties with many of the vowels - and other nationalities as well. So far I have attended two different classes, and the same pattern emerges. It is also the tonal part of the language, that has many confused and they quickly give up. In fact, for English native speakers it is much harder to learn other languages, because they are used to others learning their own.

I am of Danish nationality, and I speak 5 different languages as well (some better than others). In the beginning I thought it would be almost impossible for me, to comprehend the differences in Asian and European languages. Two days ago I picked up a Thai-Thai dictionary published by the national department of language (or equivalent), and my love for learning this language grows every day. I wouldn't personally have a problem with passing a test at the immigration office, as I read and filled out the form in Thai last time I was there. I do, however, understand the frustration it might cause, amongst those who truly find it difficult to decipher Thai language.

At the school I was taking my first term there was a lot of change in the rules, and the owner/teacher was not at all sure about the law, so there was a lot of uncertainty and change of plans. The students didn't exactly know how to go about, and it was new to the school as well. After 6 months it was decided, that we simply put our signature on the days we took classes, writing what we had learned that day on the line. After 6 months we were all capable of doing it in Thai as well, so for us it was no obstacle at all. This was a request made by immigration, according to my teacher, and was to be widely spread on all private schools in Phuket.

I also find it about time, because I would hate to see the ED visa exploited to the brink of extinction, as it is my only means of being able to continue studying Thai language and culture. Make an official test, like all other school systems around the world already has. It isn't hard to make one, that it is impossible to tamper with. You just have the entire region meet up at a designated hall, and have immigration officials oversee the process. The test should of course range from easy to hard, being able to write the Thai alphabet, draw lines between words and pictures, and maybe even read and translate whole sentences. This would at least confirm, that students have some understand of the written language, which should be an absolute minimum for any serious student.

[leosia]

This is a great example of how the visa system in Thailand is confused by the Thai authorities and offers potential for abuse by foreigners (I'm not saying that's the case here). An ED visa - to come on a work study tour or observation tour, to participate in projects or seminars, to attend a conference or training course, to study as a foreign Buddhist monk, etc - has to be applied for a month in advance. Because it's granted for something so specific there should be a clear duration period attached to the visa. If it needs to be extended for any reason the applicant should just provide evidence of progress in the area being studied. That should be very easy to show (applicant) and to review (immigration), providing it's not just another scam for staying in the country.

[SiriusBlack1]

I've had ED for years, didn't know I could get a visa for that.

Kind of makes sense though really...

[pjclark1]

questions i was asked.

do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

1) Mai mee ไม่มี

2) Mai mee ไม่มี

3) Mai mee ไม่มี

4) Sam สาม

Does this mean I have passed and don't need to turn up for lessons any more?

(crikey ..... 1300 members and 1000 guests reading this topic at the moment)

Edited December 17, 2009 by pjclark1

[OxfordWill]

was it a written test too?

Edited December 17, 2009 by OxfordWill

[Sateev]

Regardless of what 'they' (Immigration clerks) are doing, it's just another example of arbitrary decision-making by a higher-up with an axe to grind. Unless the police issue a new regulation, specifying the level of achievement required to meet the visa requirement, it's all BS...

And for the 'som num na' crowd: it is becoming more and more typically petty here in TV. So many insecure a**holes with nothing else to do but revel in others' misfortune, judgemental to the bitter end. Yeah, you'll last a long time here...

There is a long-standing caution in Asia against breaking someone else's rice bowl. So typical of the late comers to bring a disregard of same from their own careworn countries...maybe better stay home, and gossip about the neighbors, and call the law if you see something actionable. Please.

Oh, and for those who miss no opportunity to bash Americans, well, 'nuff said.

Sateev

[Luxius]

Oh, and for those who miss no opportunity to bash Americans, well, 'nuff said.

I find it true, that Americans do a much better job bashing themselves.

Enough said (in proper English).

[silentnine]

was it a written test too?

no.

verbal test was not formal either.

[canuckamuck]

Well! Let's make a distinction between Thai being your 5th language and the notion that, in reality, you know a little bit of Thai and, presumably, a few sentences in some of those other languages that you are boasting about! I am a linguist and, even though most would consider me fully bilingual in 2 languages, I don't even consider myself so, but then I am really picky and consider most unilingual speakers unable to claim that they know their first language, especially English, which is one of the most illogical and backward languages around, but I digress (as this sentence is). Assuming you mean being somewhat conversant in those languages and Thai, knowing a little of Thai is nice, especially if you have been staying here for a while and are young, but what a pain and waste of anyone's time, especially when a good proportion of Thais know English (and learned it for many years more than most foreigners will ever be able to learn Thai) better than most foreigners know Thai and especially when research demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that it is extremely hard to learn another language well, past puberty (especially the accent). So, forcing expats to learn Thai seems totally counter-productive. And is Thai or the thousands of dialects? And, why would I want to learn more than just a few sentences to get by, because honestly, assuming they are interested, talking philosophy in Thai is not on my TO-DO list anytime soon! Maybe more effort should be put in reducing class size, improving their pedagogy around teaching English, and changing the culture that makes learning a language (especially English) extremely hard. Not that I am blaming anyone here, as some of these impediments are obviously gigantic, if not impossible to tackle! Although we know that the well-off just send their children abroad as a way to bypass this, which is a clear indightement that the system is inadequate. But I digress again!

So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. As far as I know, there are no clear expectations set in the visa asking someone to become proficient in Thai. And, if so, where are the objective tests that would determine one's proficiency. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off? Come on! It was hinted in those fantastic commercials that everyone spoke English in Thailand! Can I get my money back?

So nice of you to decide, for the rest of us, what is a worthwhile use of our time. Instead of spending my time becoming a pompous monolingual linguist, I am studying and actually learning Thai to use it. I do this so I can have more meaningful conversations with my wife and kids and extended Thai relatives. Beyond that, I wish I had more Thai friends, and that will only come when I can communicate more easily. Currently I am stuck striking up conversations with the know-it-all Farangs that feel so superior when they roam a third world nation. I know the peasants here are undeserving of your great sagacity, but little ole' me doesn't mind so much to learn what they think and feel. I hope you understand my meaning; I am afraid I didn't use enough parenthesis.

[Dakhar]

You say you are a linguist, but then say you speak two languages, isn't the definition of a linguist is a person that speaks several languages fluently. You even say that you don't consider yourself bilingual, so I don't think I would be going around saying I'm a linguist. ...

No, the definition of a linguist does not necessarily mean a person must be fluent in several languages etc to be a linquist. A linguist can be a person that studies languages, origins, cultures tied to the language, phonetics etc etc etc. It could be argued that a speech pathologist is a linguist. I studied linguistics in my BAAS program, lang aquisition, phonetics, speech pathologies etc... At one time I spoke Mandarine Chinese fluently, but with all of that, I do not consider myself a linguist. But I can tell you the fact that a person can suposedly speak 5 languages means diddle when it comes to learning Thai etc. If anything, depending on the secondary languages it may be helpful (if the languages have similarities to Thai)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_linguists

But thinking that you should get "special treatment" because you speak 5 languages is much like saying you should get special treatment on your math exam because your are tall. No, relationship....

Sorry Charlie

[endlessimage]

I agree that the testing would need to be planned, designed, and administered carefully. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and learning Thai as a 2nd (or 3rd, etc) language is much more difficult for some than others. Personally, I attended a Thai class twice a week for 6 months - not for an ED visa, just for "fun." I worked hard, participated in class, and did my homework. After the 6 months, I still had much weaker Thai than some friends who just "picked it up" through daily living. Learning additional languages is just not one of my strengths. As others have said, attendance seems to be a more fair way to check the legitimacy of an ED visa. One guy could walk into immigration and be able to converse semi-fluently in Thai because he spends all his time with bar girls and various Thai girlfriends instead of going to class. Is he more deserving of an ED visa than someone who actually goes to class and puts in the classtime? No, not in my opinion. Of course, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to monitor all these ED visas, I just don't think an on-the-spot, informal conversational test is the best monitoring system.

Exactly!

[eek]

was it a written test too?

no.

verbal test was not formal either.

Ok..before the thread veers more off-topic, can i say then it could possibly have just been something silentnines local officer decided to try out impromptu? If the officer did not say this is some kind of new official arrangement, then maybe they just took it upon themselves to syke out the Ed visa holders. So actually no "crackdown" at all.

Anyway, unless official, i kind of think the title is a tad overly dramatic in any case.

[OxfordWill]

I think we are all used to Thaivisa headlines being a little dramatic by now.

[MacWalen]

It is most likely as you say eek. Until we hear more reports like that we may assume that it was just one-off case.

[thomasjojo]

here's a bit of Thai to get them started:

som nam na

he he, thats a good one.

[eTiMaGo]

And for the 'som num na' crowd: it is becoming more and more typically petty here in TV. So many insecure a**holes with nothing else to do but revel in others' misfortune, judgemental to the bitter end. Yeah, you'll last a long time here...

I was not being judgmental in saying that, it's just sad seeing foreigners flock to this country and expecting to live here without having to learn a word of the language... If a Thai person were to go live in England or Germany or wherever, and refused to learn a word of the local language, it's not exactly quite right either, no? So I think it is right that a minimum amount of effort is required.

We all know how difficult staying here in full legality can be, this whole ED visa/language school deal is a great advantage for those who have a legitimate need to do this. So, it's pretty sure the immigration/education department will eventually take steps to weed out those who abuse this, as they have done with the tourist visas in the past.

[moskito]

Regarding our advertising, it is true that we can assist with ED visas for 10 years.

See its statements like that, which lose credibility..

You can see deep into the future.. You know exactly what the Thai immigration system will allow 10 years from now..

I don't know the future, it is based on current conditions, if the law changes we will also change our offer, at the moment it holds true.

so if you are just intrested in the education of people, why you highlight he VISA conditions always?

I dont understand the hassle anyway. There are LAW, + Visa&Accounting offices where everyone can buy a year Visa for 25k without visiting a shool.

Cheaper and more holiday

[beano2274]

The easy way to deal with the non attendance is to have all students use a fingerprint reader to register in class, then when they leave fingerprint reader again, this is linked via a modem to the Immigration office Server, which then looks at attendances and those who say they are attending to gain an ED Visa. A print out is made every month and those who do not attend are summoned to Immigration and the Visas cancelled. Those who attend other courses to gain a ED Visa must be registered in the same way, if a company is offering 10 year Visas then it should help use a method like this and also contribute to it, thus giving them a good way to promote their courses.

For those who do the courses and can speak Thai, hats off to all of you, I have been here 5 years and still have a basic knowledge.

[MacWalen]

so if you are just intrested in the education of people, why you highlight he VISA conditions always?

I dont understand the hassle anyway. There are LAW, + Visa&Accounting offices where everyone can buy a year Visa for 25k without visiting a shool.

Cheaper and more holiday

You are dreaming, law and accounting offices where you can buy an ED visa that you can extend? Hm...., can you give us some examples because Im hearing this for the first time. I would be interested to know who is doing that as this would be indeed against the law. I would not call such a firm a law firm.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text. No need to quote the entire, lengthy post with multiple nested quotes - Maestro

[BlackJack]

Not all Ed Visas are based on a Thai Language course.

thats correct as I am currently doing my thesis on can you really teach street rats to sing.

My guess is that it should take about 10 years of study.

[Arkady]

They have been systematically closing all loopholes that allow foreigners to live here other than on a non-imm visa with WP, retirement visa, marriage visa or PR. So this is not a surprise. They are no doubt capable of using google to find all the ads offering ED visas for those who enroll in Thai language schools. The government view seems, rightly or wrongly, that long term residents below retirement age must be working without WPs and evading tax, so they don't want them here. Western countries would also not allow mature students to stay on ED visas for many years without getting degrees or diplomas from recognized institutions other than language schools. Perhaps they will limit ED visas for study at Thai language schools to, say, two years. Two years' full time study should be enough to achieve fluency in spoken and written Thai and enable serious students to go on to do a degree in Thai.

[granuaile]

Seems like a lot of unknowns here.

I just had my first visa extension here in BKK and that went smoothly. I actually anticipated they might ask me something, but they didn't - I did express my happiness in Thai,... I think I could read ok even if not understand and my pronunciation of some things might be rough. The questions seemed reasonable enough except for the emphasis on marriage that strikes me a bit strange - I will have to practice my listening more I think - that worries me more.

This will motivate me to work harder on vocabulary and listening/speaking.

Hopefully if it does happen next time I will do OK. I have been considering a different visa anyway but would want to do my best to learn Thai language anyway. Anyway does not seem unreasonable to me, though if it is just whatever the officer wants to ask it is a bit scary. But I'll just have to deal with it,....

Granuaile

[MacWalen]

But until that happens people can stay here long term on ED visas and learn Thai. Promoting Thai language and culture can only benefit Thailand. Also assuming that all students are abusing the system is plain wrong!

[harrry]

But until that happens people can stay here long term on ED visas and learn Thai. Promoting Thai language and culture can only benefit Thailand. Also assuming that all students are abusing the system is plain wrong!

Well in one school I am aware only about 25% of students who obtain the visa for a whole year attend more than 50 hours.

I would be interested to know if your figures are better?

I would say that students who have those attendance records and utilize the rest of their visa are abusing the system.

I am fully in favour of people (including myself ) being able to learn the Thai Language and also extend this to other aspects of Thai Culture. I think the system has been overly fair but fear that the abuse ofit may lead to a very very strong crackdown.

Edited December 17, 2009 by harrry

[Arkady]

I agree that the testing would need to be planned, designed, and administered carefully. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and learning Thai as a 2nd (or 3rd, etc) language is much more difficult for some than others. Personally, I attended a Thai class twice a week for 6 months - not for an ED visa, just for "fun." I worked hard, participated in class, and did my homework. After the 6 months, I still had much weaker Thai than some friends who just "picked it up" through daily living. Learning additional languages is just not one of my strengths. As others have said, attendance seems to be a more fair way to check the legitimacy of an ED visa. One guy could walk into immigration and be able to converse semi-fluently in Thai because he spends all his time with bar girls and various Thai girlfriends instead of going to class. Is he more deserving of an ED visa than someone who actually goes to class and puts in the classtime? No, not in my opinion. Of course, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to monitor all these ED visas, I just don't think an on-the-spot, informal conversational test is the best monitoring system.

Exactly!

If the girlfriends of the guy, who skipped classes, learned his Thai from are bar girls, this would be very obvious to the Immigration officials. You often hear farangs very proud of their colloquial Thai but speaking awful Thai they learned from not very well educated bar girls, whose native tongue is Isaan, and using female modes of speech too. Nothing against bar girls but the reality of using them as your primary teachers of Thai is that you will inevitably end up sounding like them, if you ever get far enough to sound comprehensible.

[MrJohnson]

yikes....not another CRACKDOWN

[Scott]

One post has been deleted. Let's take care to respect other posters.

This thread is about Educational Visas, it is not about the Thai language. Educational visas include other educational facilities besides language schools.

Stay on Topic. There is a language forum for those wishing to discuss the language.

[MrJohnson]

questions i was asked.

do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

sounds reasonable and certainly not too difficult

[topsecret]

Or you could simply turn up at your Thai classes and learn some Thai!