Thailands Pm Abhisit: Climate Summit A Failure

[Jingthing]

It's a lot cooler today than yesterday; let's hope it continues.

Yes and my bank account interest posted yesterday. So I reckon I am getting richer everyday not poorer, and can now safely spend 100,000 baht a day and not go broke. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Scott
Quote edited/Scott

[RickBradford]

how dumb are people not to understand that when you light a fire it actually heats its environment ? Why has man made fires throughout winters since the dawn of times ?

When the fire gets bigger, let's say like in a factory, it heats more. Doesn't it ?

When you multiply people, you increase the number of plants and factories. When you multiply factories and plants, it brings the scale further in the heating process.

What cooling does man bring in exchange ? Fridges and coolers produce even more heat with their mechanisms.

is that really so hard to understand ?

should we suggest people to leave their fingers on the stove and check whether it's heating or not ?

I think you should urgently present this idea to the International Panel on Climate Change and then we can really get some action going to save the planet...

[whistleblower]

Good on Abhisit for telling it how it is.

Obama is of course completely contradicting himself with effectively 'success' and 'if we waited for success it would never happen' - a master of vocal obfuscation, so a dangerous politician (to those not on his side, i.e. not the banks)!

Yes good on him.

Now maybe he can come clean and tell everyone what a load of <deleted> the ASEAN meetings are.

And also come clean and tell the world what Thailand is doing against global warming

[Chunkton]

I don't know if man made global warming is true. It does seem to have taken on a type of religious fervor though where people are locked into a position and are not willing to debate the matter.

I did accept it at first then started to grow skeptical when saw the billions of dollars proponents like Al Gore and corrupt bankers and third world dictators were set to make from it. It then started to appear as a business move rather than a climate move. I also wonder how many of these leading bureaucrats and politicians were also set to be rewarded for their "efforts".

Then of course there was Climategate suggesting that data was being manipulated to achieve the desired outcome. So if true belivers want assign blame start with your own camp for engaging in corruption and deliberately misleading the public. Don't blame those that want incontrovertible proof and solutions that don't result purely in the Elite getting richer.

As to Thailand's program, ha ha, I wouldn't even bother reading it as know it will all be meaningless spin, somewhat like attacking other countries tariffs where they are widespread here.

[hardy1943]

Unless we become more active in cutting carbon (and methane) emissions instead of being waylaid by big corporations' desire to maximise their profits at all costs; we may live to see the day when a multi billion dollar profit will buy absolutely zilch.

Edited for grammar

All well and good how about cleaning up one owns back yard.

Before critizing anything else.

Any one living in Northern Thailand knows what I am talking about.

Every March because of the burn and slash practice the polution is the worsed I every seen in any country included China.

[brahmburgers]

I'm trying to understand those that are most adamantly against taking action, i.e. global warming deniers. I can understand some of their resistance, but why so hard-core?

Most, if not all the climate change deniers admit the earth is warming. So let's build on what we agree upon. Apparently, it's the degree to which people exacerbate the warming that's in contention. Ok, fair enough. It's hard to gauge such a complex matter as to 'what degree human activity is contributing to warming.' Obviously, it's not all done by humans, as there are effects of the sun, and natural phenomena (volcanoes, methane from seas, etc) and other factors.

However, there appears there is something that all can agree upon: Humans are serious polluters. So, if we agree that we don't like gross levels of pollution, and we agree that the earth is warming, then the only disagreements are peripheral.

If Obama claims that the world leaders he spoke with are willing to set goals on reducing pollution, ....who's got a problem with that? ....except perhaps those who would hope for more dire levels of pollution reduction and/or stronger policing - or those on the far right end of the spectrum who get angry about anything to do with the topic of climate change and pollution reduction.

[RickBradford]

^^

We should all consider the views of Bjorn Lomborg, who I believe is the main figure who represents the next generation of climate-related scientists, capable of integrating the otherwise polarized positions of "Warmists" and "deniers"

He believes in the notion of CO²-driven global warming, but also notes that 17 years of pushing negative policies (taxation, restriction) have proved themselves to be a failure. He promotes positive actions, such as alternative energy development.

He states the unavoidable truth that political attempts to take action on "global warming" were not honored after Rio (1992) or Kyoto (1997) and completely failed at Copenhagen last week. The idea of taxing CO² emissions is simply a recipe for extra regulation, taxation without representation, and restriction of the free market.

Lomborg's view is that if the tens of billions of dollars being thrown every year at useless CO² reductions and carbon trading were actually used positively -- say, into research into making renewable energy such as geothermal and solar viable, that would benefit the planet in so many ways separate from the narrow area of "man-made global warming" that few people could find a way to disagree.

[neverdie]

The global warming denial is a very interesting psychological phenomena. Imagine how few global warming skeptics there would be if the vast majority of global scientists and world leaders determined that eating a peanut everyday increased penis or breast size. They deny because it is bad news and asks them to give up stuff for vague future results, not because they really believe the vast majority of scientists and world leaders are wrong. This time China is the biggest spoiler. Note that the Chinese officials are NOT denying man made global warming. They have much more immediate concerns, the poverty of most of their people which can be helped with dirty coal energy, and the potential revolutions against their government if they can't produce more results. Therefore, they just won't go for the current deal.

From what I have seen JT, theres no denial that the world is heating up, most people agree the globe is warming, its just what is causing it that people don't agree on.

This planet of ours has been heating up and cooling down, long before we started pumping polution into the atmosphere.

how dumb are people not to understand that when you light a fire it actually heats its environment ? Why has man made fires throughout winters since the dawn of times ?

When the fire gets bigger, let's say like in a factory, it heats more. Doesn't it ?

When you multiply people, you increase the number of plants and factories. When you multiply factories and plants, it brings the scale further in the heating process.

What cooling does man bring in exchange ? Fridges and coolers produce even more heat with their mechanisms.

is that really so hard to understand ?

should we suggest people to leave their fingers on the stove and check whether it's heating or not ?

stupids.

Try not to get so hooked up on whos stupid and whos not, try thinking about carbon emissions, thats what they are talking about.

Sure some of those things you mentioned cause heat, but dont loose sight on the fact that heat can also be lost through the earths athmosphere, you not lighting a million fires in an enclosed heater box.

[anon467367354]

it makes one wonder why the entire solar system was heating up to. The studies show that sunspot activity is directly related to the temperature on earth, more sunspots, the hotter it is, and not because sunspots are hot, it has to do with solar wind. When Al Gore said we were at risk of losing all the ice at the poles, it simply isn't true, the ice is actually increasing now. The pollution is a problem, no doubt, but just because we can create a global tax, and regulate life's essentials and non-manmade things, doesn't give excuse to create BS studies and cap and trade countries right off the map.

[solent01]

I am not convinced global warming is real but I am convinced pollution is nasty and Bangkok is a prime example of that. Many of the same changes that would limit so-called global warming will also reduce pollution and thus I am all for climate change measures and am very disappointed in this summit. Though I didn't expect Obama to woe the whole world I felt he took a very half-assed and distracted view on this summit given what it represents also represents a core position he took during his campaign. I would love for the air we breathe, water we drink and land we live on to be cleaner and want something done.

The air you breath, via chemtrails, the water you drink full of fluoride...... the list is long and many.

Like I said, its all "illuminati"

[solent01]

When the ice caps have gone and with that the Gulf stream you can say hello to some very interesting climate changes. Why is that so difficult to understand? Don't spend so much time gobbling up the goo spewed by Fox News.

The summit failed largely for two reasons:

1) China agreed to the regulations but refused to have anyone check them. What's the point of a law without enforcement? Just look how many there are in Thailand...

2) The 3rd world countries wanted the 1st world countries to pay them more money, most of which would probably have found their way into their leaders pockets anyway.

Not too sure about that Phil, if you look at the ice core samples, you would notice a pattern that indicates we are infact entering an ice age, this pattern has been running for as long as we can gather samples!!!! (meaning, as far back as we can go the pattern is the same)

[solent01]

how dumb are people not to understand that when you light a fire it actually heats its environment ? Why has man made fires throughout winters since the dawn of times ?

When the fire gets bigger, let's say like in a factory, it heats more. Doesn't it ?

When you multiply people, you increase the number of plants and factories. When you multiply factories and plants, it brings the scale further in the heating process.

What cooling does man bring in exchange ? Fridges and coolers produce even more heat with their mechanisms.

is that really so hard to understand ?

should we suggest people to leave their fingers on the stove and check whether it's heating or not ?

stupids.

Stupids?

Oh please.......

If you can't bring something sensible to the table, don't pull up a chair!

[solent01]

One more post just to get you all thinking, Does climategate mean anything to you? Do you really think that you are not being f….ked over?

[Donnyboy]

The global warming denial is a very interesting psychological phenomena. Imagine how few global warming skeptics there would be if the vast majority of global scientists and world leaders determined that eating a peanut everyday increased penis or breast size. They deny because it is bad news and asks them to give up stuff for vague future results, not because they really believe the vast majority of scientists and world leaders are wrong. This time China is the biggest spoiler. Note that the Chinese officials are NOT denying man made global warming. They have much more immediate concerns, the poverty of most of their people which can be helped with dirty coal energy, and the potential revolutions against their government if they can't produce more results. Therefore, they just won't go for the current deal.

From what I have seen JT, theres no denial that the world is heating up, most people agree the globe is warming, its just what is causing it that people don't agree on.

This planet of ours has been heating up and cooling down, long before we started pumping polution into the atmosphere.

how dumb are people not to understand that when you light a fire it actually heats its environment ? Why has man made fires throughout winters since the dawn of times ?

When the fire gets bigger, let's say like in a factory, it heats more. Doesn't it ?

When you multiply people, you increase the number of plants and factories. When you multiply factories and plants, it brings the scale further in the heating process.

What cooling does man bring in exchange ? Fridges and coolers produce even more heat with their mechanisms.

is that really so hard to understand ?

should we suggest people to leave their fingers on the stove and check whether it's heating or not ?

stupids.

eh?

yr kidding right?

[david96]

According to a French source (documentary on Australian SBS-TV) the levels of CO2 where fairly stable at 260ppm and there was a gradual rise to 320ppm by 1950. The levels are now about 380ppm. Estimated levels by the year 2050 about 450ppm.

Also our population was about 1000 million (1B) in 1800, 2B in 1900, 3B in 1950 and 6B in 2000 now nearly 7B by 2010. It is obvious that the world population will rise to 12billion by 2050.

First there has to be population control measures thoughout the world and we must stablise our population and ideally reduce the levels to those of 1950 plus or minus 5%.This has to be done over the next 50 years or so. Quality before quantity.

Secondly we need to switch out energy requirements from fossil fuels to nuclear, geothermal and other means over the next 50 years. Hydrogen is a good source of energy it just has to be harnessed.

And how much energy was needed to transport all those persons to Holland to produce nothing of value. To save energy and minimise CO2 emissions all they had to do was conduct their conference using video conferencing and e-mail. In other words stay in their own countries. In the end the meeting was about politics, power and money.

Carbon Trading Schemes are potential scams.

[brahmburgers]

When Al Gore said we were at risk of losing all the ice at the poles, it simply isn't true, the ice is actually increasing now

Regardless of what Gore said or didn't say, ice is receding, particularly the N.Pole and Greenland. There are a host of 'before and after' photos showing glaciers receding dramatically in the past 15 years.

Just one of hundreds of examples, the two photos below show a glacier called Whitechuck. Each photo is taken from the same vantage point, one dated 1973, the other dated 2006.

[RickBradford]

There are a host of 'before and after' photos showing glaciers receding dramatically in the past 15 years.

Yes, there are.

And there also numerous studies which show that glaciers worldwide began receding in 1820-1880 (after the end of the Little Ice Age), with some receding as early as 1750. The only period during which, even in theory, humankind’s activities could have had any impact (and even then, only marginal) on glacial recession was 1975-the present.

However, the rate of warming during recent times has been no greater than the warming rate from 1860-1880 and again from 1910-1940, so there is no discernible man-made influence in the temperature record at all, and hence no man-made input to glacier loss.

Thee are other man-made factors at play around the world -- the iconic Kilimanjaro ice-cap loss is now thought to be caused by drying of the climate at the summit due to major deforestation lower down the slopes; the Himalayan glaciers are thought to be suffering from soot deposits which, being black, absorb heat better than snow.

One explanation here.

Edited December 21, 2009 by RickBradford

[goatfarmer]

How about this:

http://www.rense.com/general88/warming.htm

[Scott]

Posts have been edited and deleted. Let's stay on topic and let's keep derogatory and inflammatory remarks out of the thread. References to individuals as "idiots" aren't acceptable.

There's a lot of information out there and it's an interesting topic.

Thanks.

[Credo]

I tend to agree with Abhisit's assessment of the meeting, based both on what I have read and the fact that he's kind of an expert on failed meetings.

[RickBradford]

[Garry9999]

Here are 10 anti-commandments, 10 selected facts about global warming which have been largely ignored amid the orthodoxies to which we are subjected every day. All these anti-commandments are either true or backed by scientific opinion. All can also be hotly contested.

1. The pin-up species of global warming, the polar bear, is increasing in number, not decreasing.

2. The US President, Barack Obama, supports building nuclear power plants.

Last week, in his State of the Union address, he said: ''To create more of these clean energy jobs, we need more production, more efficiency, more incentives. And that means building a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in this country.''

3. The Copenhagen climate conference descended into farce.

The low point of the gridlock and posturing at Copenhagen came with the appearance by the socialist dictator of Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez, whose anti-capitalist diatribe drew a cheering ovation from thousands of left-wing ideologues.

4. The reputation of the chief United Nations scientist on global warming is in disrepair.

Dr Rajendra Pachauri, the chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), is being investigated for financial irregularities, conflicts of interest and scientific distortion. He has already admitted publishing false data.

5. The supposed scientific consensus of the IPCC has been challenged by numerous distinguished scientists.

6. The politicisation of science leads to a heavy price being paid in poor countries.

After Western environmentalists succeeded in banning or suppressing the use of the pesticide DDT, the rate of death by malaria rose into the millions. Some scholars estimate the death toll at 20 million or more, most of them children.

7. The biofuels industry has exacerbated world hunger.

Diverting huge amounts of grain crops (as distinct from sugar cane) to biofuels has contributed to a rise in world food prices, felt acutely in the poorest nations.

8. The Kyoto Protocol has proved meaningless.

Global carbon emissions are significantly higher today than they were when the Kyoto Protocol was introduced.

9. The United Nations global carbon emissions reduction target is a massively costly mirage.

10. Kevin Rudd's political bluff on emissions trading has been exposed.

The Prime Minister intimated he would go to the people in an early election if his carbon emissions trading legislation was rejected. He won't. The electorate has shifted.

None of these anti-commandments question the salient negative link between humanity and the environment: that we are an omnivorous, rapacious species which has done enormous damage to the world's environment.

Nor do they question the warming of the planet.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/fac...00131-n6fr.html

[ding]

When Al Gore said we were at risk of losing all the ice at the poles, it simply isn't true, the ice is actually increasing now

Regardless of what Gore said or didn't say, ice is receding, particularly the N.Pole and Greenland. There are a host of 'before and after' photos showing glaciers receding dramatically in the past 15 years.

Just one of hundreds of examples, the two photos below show a glacier called Whitechuck. Each photo is taken from the same vantage point, one dated 1973, the other dated 2006.

No amount of evidence can sway some people. They've been irreparably brainwashed.

"Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion?"

[Garry9999]

When Al Gore said we were at risk of losing all the ice at the poles, it simply isn't true, the ice is actually increasing now

Regardless of what Gore said or didn't say, ice is receding, particularly the N.Pole and Greenland. There are a host of 'before and after' photos showing glaciers receding dramatically in the past 15 years.

Just one of hundreds of examples, the two photos below show a glacier called Whitechuck. Each photo is taken from the same vantage point, one dated 1973, the other dated 2006.

No amount of evidence can sway some people. They've been irreparably brainwashed.

"Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion?"

There's no way those two photos where taken from the same vantage point, no date evidence evidence either. Were they taken at same time of the year?

[ding]

When Al Gore said we were at risk of losing all the ice at the poles, it simply isn't true, the ice is actually increasing now

Regardless of what Gore said or didn't say, ice is receding, particularly the N.Pole and Greenland. There are a host of 'before and after' photos showing glaciers receding dramatically in the past 15 years.

Just one of hundreds of examples, the two photos below show a glacier called Whitechuck. Each photo is taken from the same vantage point, one dated 1973, the other dated 2006.

No amount of evidence can sway some people. They've been irreparably brainwashed.

"Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion?"

There's no way those two photos where taken from the same vantage point, no date evidence evidence either. Were they taken at same time of the year?

No problem, just refute them with facts and we have something. Merely foisting vague questions about facts is no substitute for disproving them.

[RickBradford]

Come on, guys, the whole man-made global warming thing has collapsed like the funds-driven political souffle it always was.

Within a couple of months, the only people left who still believe in man-made global warming will be the eco-loon equivalents of those wartime Japanese soldiers left abandoned and forgotten on remote Pacific atolls.

Personally, I hope that Climategate will bring to an end the field of political climatology, and allow climatology to again become a science. That said, people intrinsically become committed to ideas. The Pope will not become a Protestant even if the Angel Gabriel taps him on the shoulder and asks him to.

And we won't get our money back, either.