Hunting Dogs And Poisonous Snakes

[steelepulse]

Over the past 7 years, I have lost two Dogo Argentinos to snake bites, with the most recent being only 4 days ago. The prey drive on these dogs is so strong, that they go in and bite without any hesitation.

In the US you can train your dogs to stay away from rattlesnakes because of the noise they make, but I've never seen nor heard of any way to train them to stay away from snakes that make no noise.

I've taken the usual measures to keep snakes out by putting down deterrents around the perimeter, but with having vacant land on two sides of my property, these snakes still get into the yard. Two days before the last dog was bitten, my gardener and I killed a cobra in the front yard. 3 days ago my wife said she say a huge cobra snake skin that had recently been shed in the backyard.

So the question is, what can you do for your animals that have a huge prey drive to keep them from getting bit by poisonous snakes? Antivenom is good to have if you can see what snake bit the dog, but if you're not around, you can't just administer cobra antivenom as maybe a viper or another poisonous snake bit your dog.

The loss of our latest dog has been a sad loss to our whole family as we loved Power as he was a member of our family. RIP Power.

[alfieconn]

Sorry about your recent loss, i certainly know how you are feeling having lost my rottie to illness 2 days ago.

Discussed the snake problem with my wife and she said something the thais do is too place some fine mesh netting around the perimeter which the snakes cannot get through and she has been successfull with this deterrent many times.

I guess this is something you might have tried already but i thought i would mention it anyway.

[sbk]

My dogs, while not any breed, also have a very strong hunting instinct and have the experience to kill the snakes without getting bit. That said, they are not getting younger and I dread the day when their reactions slow down just that little bit.

we live on a stream so fine mesh is not an option. I've heard mothballs work but can't see how putting them all over the place would work.

[Bagwan]

Please feed my curiosity. What means did you use to deter the snakes?

[bkkc1976]

first,sorry for the lost of your dog!

I saw an episode of cesar milan(dog whisperer) and they trained the dogs to avoid snakes with an electronic shock collar(excuse my english)!they shocked the dog in the moment he recognized the snake!

it worked very well!he did it with his american pitbull and a few other dog and they tested it a few weeks later and as soon the dog saw the snake he went off!

i think this is the way to go,but you need snakes to train it!the had the snakes in a wooden cage,maybe possible arange something like this at a snake farm!?

its also the biggest fear i have with my dogo/staff mix and i saw a few snakes already and if he does he will go for it!

i hope this heped!

regards

[londonthai]

within 7 years you have lost 2 dogs, but most probably many snakes were killed and many more deterred from coming on your property and killing lifestock and people (including your kids)

I have 2 dogs for that purpose

[tatt2dude]

Sorry you lost your dog. Tough break.

[bina]

same same here. havent met anyone that was able to train dogs to not hunt our vipers. boxers seem to be high on the list of those that die from snake bite. the canaani (like the thai village dogs) are very fast, and dont seem to get bitten as often. its the squashed nose types that get the bites (on the face of course). maybe its the way they hunt: they bite, grab and hold on. the canaanis have the wolf type biting action: bite/release/ bite/release and they have a pointer snout so maybe they grab differently or better then the squished nose types that grab with full mouth bite and the whole face is vulnerable? just thinking out loud...

here imve know of several horses that got snake bitten and died.

bina

israel

sorry about Power (

[Nienke]

I'm very sorry for your loss, Steelepulse. And again, also to you, Alfieconn. Not a nice way to enter a new year.

first,sorry for the lost of your dog!

I saw an episode of cesar milan(dog whisperer) and they trained the dogs to avoid snakes with an electronic shock collar(excuse my english)!they shocked the dog in the moment he recognized the snake!

25!!! organizations worldwide have joined together to voice their serious concerns about training techniques, based on the principle of applying an unpleasant stimulus to inhibit behavior, that can cause pain and fear to the dog. These aversive training techniques can include the use of prong collars, electric shock collars, choking (that is restricting dogs’ air supply using by means of choke/check collars) or pinning them to the ground (the so-called alpha-roll). Techniques which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan on his shows. By using these techniques not only the behavioral problems may worsen and compromise the welfare of dogs, they can place owners (and their children!) at considerable risk.

Several scientific studies have found an association between the occurrence of problem behavior in dogs and the use of these aversive training techniques.

The organizations are:

1. Dogs Trust,

2. The Blue Cross,

3. Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA),

4. The Blue Dog,

5. Wood Green Animal Shelters,

6. World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA),

7. The Kennel Club, Raystede Centre for Animal Welfare,

8. Canine Partners, UK ,

9. Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB),

11. Association of Pet Dog Trainers, UK (APDT, UK),

12. UK Registry of Canine Behaviours (UKRCB),

13. Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group (CABTSG),

14. British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) and

15. British Veterinary Association (BVA).

16. Australian Veterinary Association (AVA),

17. Australian Veterinary Behaviour Interest Group (AVBIG),

18. American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB),

19. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB),

20. The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) and

21. The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers, Inc. (CCPDT)(USA).

22. European Society of Clinical Veterinary Ethology (ESCVE),

23. European College of Veterinary Behavioural Medicine – Companion Animals (ECVBM-CA),

24. the Flemish Veterinary Working Group on Ethology (VDWE) and

25. Norwegian Association for Pet Behaviour (NAPB) Norsk Atferdsgruppe for Selskapsdyr (NAS).

During the last decennia dog training and dog problem behavior modification have come a long way where reward-based training methods have been seen to be very effective. It includes, however, the willingness of the owners to really understand a dog behavior (development), its language, how it learns, and often a change in their own behavior towards the dog.

Nienke

(who's reacting in general and not personally towards bkkc1976, Steelepulse or anyone else on this forum)

[steelepulse]

Thanks everyone. The mesh seems like a good idea. The electric shock could work provided you can have some snakes to train with.

[alfieconn]

Thanks everyone. The mesh seems like a good idea. The electric shock could work provided you can have some snakes to train with.

Regarding the netting, as i understand, it would have to be made of a very fine line such as fishing line and holes can be about 1.5 cm, depending on where you live there might be some old farmers somewhere who can probaly help.Where do you live ? if it was fairly local to myself i could bring my very practical wife to help you, and also cry on each others shoulder .

Edited January 1, 2010 by alfieconn

[lannaman]

We lost our much loved Golden Retrieved a year ago to a cobra bite, so you have my every sympathy.

Happy New Year anyway.

[bkkc1976]

I'm very sorry for your loss, Steelepulse. And again, also to you, Alfieconn. Not a nice way to enter a new year.

first,sorry for the lost of your dog!

I saw an episode of cesar milan(dog whisperer) and they trained the dogs to avoid snakes with an electronic shock collar(excuse my english)!they shocked the dog in the moment he recognized the snake!

25!!! organizations worldwide have joined together to voice their serious concerns about training techniques, based on the principle of applying an unpleasant stimulus to inhibit behavior, that can cause pain and fear to the dog. These aversive training techniques can include the use of prong collars, electric shock collars, choking (that is restricting dogs' air supply using by means of choke/check collars) or pinning them to the ground (the so-called alpha-roll). Techniques which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan on his shows. By using these techniques not only the behavioral problems may worsen and compromise the welfare of dogs, they can place owners (and their children!) at considerable risk.

Several scientific studies have found an association between the occurrence of problem behavior in dogs and the use of these aversive training techniques.

Hello.

i know many people dont like this guy,but i love him and believe this guy has just a gift!and like everything unusal in this world there will be people how do their stuff for years and just cant stand this guy is comin and changing everything they believed!

this guy saved a lot of dogs from gettin putted to sleep and i train my dog with the advises i get on the show and my dog is changed only for good!

BUT the more important part at this moment is not what HE does,its about how to train your dog not gettin killed by a snake!

and i i am not a fan of these shocking collars,but better do this than loose your dog!

regards

[Thongkorn]

Sorry about the death of your dog, Some times they become like children to you. The fact is that your dogs may be attracting the Snakes, The Snakes can smell the dogs and think that they are Dinner, Snakes can climb so stopping all snakes is virtually impossible. The only suggestion i can make is , clear the scrub from the land around your property and try to keep you dogs clean, With respect , i am not saying your dogs are un kept but snakes have a fantastic smelling capability.

[londonthai]

dogs do scare snakes, are sometimes bitten in the process of killing the snake but rarely eaten. Snakes are shy creatures, would attack people or dogs only when in danger or protecting the offspring

[Nienke]

Hello.

i know many people dont like this guy,but i love him and believe this guy has just a gift!and like everything unusal in this world there will be people how do their stuff for years and just cant stand this guy is comin and changing everything they believed!

this guy saved a lot of dogs from gettin putted to sleep and i train my dog with the advises i get on the show and my dog is changed only for good!

BUT the more important part at this moment is not what HE does,its about how to train your dog not gettin killed by a snake!

and i i am not a fan of these shocking collars,but better do this than loose your dog!

regards

I do understand you and I do understand the necessity of keeping your animals as safe as possible.

I'm not saying that aversive techniques do not work (although it happens more too often when using them for aggressive issues the opposite is established of what one had in mind). If aversive methods wouldn't have had any result it would have died out long time ago.

My point is that dog training and behavior modification has developed so much during the last decennia. There are now reward-based training techniques that are highly effective. And these techniques are dog-friendly.

Isn't it that when a pet owner truly loves his/her animal that s/he wants to use techniques that are not abusive to the dog, where the dog is not subject to pain and fear? Wouldn't it be fair to the beloved pet that the pet owner at least learns to understand its behavior, its language and the way it learns? And that the pet owner tries to bring up the patience to guide (educate/train) the animal into behavior that is desired by the pet owner?

Reward-based behavior modification techniques deal with the root of the problem, that what causes the problem. They work with changing the mind of the dog, step-by-little-step, that there are very nice and more desirable (for the dog) alternatives to this behavior.

Aversive techniques work with taking away the effect, the end-result, based on the threat to unpleasant consequences for the dog. Problem is that the root of the problem is suppressed and, therefore, can come out at any moment again. And that's one of things things CM is over-looking or ignoring.

This in a very simplistic nutshell. There is plenty of information on this subject out there and explained in a much better way than I do.

[sbk]

Sorry about the death of your dog, Some times they become like children to you. The fact is that your dogs may be attracting the Snakes, The Snakes can smell the dogs and think that they are Dinner, Snakes can climb so stopping all snakes is virtually impossible. The only suggestion i can make is , clear the scrub from the land around your property and try to keep you dogs clean, With respect , i am not saying your dogs are un kept but snakes have a fantastic smelling capability.

While snakes do eat other animals I am pretty sure they go for things like rodents, toads, frogs and lizards. I have never had a snake come to try and eat my dog but rather they are attracted to the wildlife living in the stream that runs along the side of my house. And not all snakes climb.

[bina]

The Snakes can smell the dogs and think that they are Dinner, Snakes can climb so stopping all snakes is virtually impossible

snakes dont really 'smell' like we do; they definately can destinguish between prey and 'large mammal but not meant to be eaten' otherwwise they would be hunting us. most snakes dont willing bite or attack unless bothered; mostly it is our pets that are curious or have a hunting instinct but not the skill that instigate a snake bite.

the mesh could be mildly effective and may also provide u with a false sense of security. the best anti snake practices are keeping snake hidey hole materials like piles of junk, wood, rocks and rags from piling up near the house. keeping food items that attract rats/mice (a snake smorgasbord) from hanging around your house; training dog in whatever methods poeple have found to work. i know arizona has a program for both dogs and horses-- a google should bring it up. my parents (arizona) have some sort of block fencing around their back yard that is apparently also agains snakes, but most snakes there are on the ground; i think thailand has several types that prefer to climb and move among trees (pythons, tree snakes, cobras? )

we had snakes getting in to our voluaires with the parakeets thru little tiny holes. they made a good killing on the baby birds, but then the snakes got too large to leave again, which is how we caught them (israeli vipers in this case).

cats sem to really help with snake proofing large areas.

possible the training of dogs with a high prey drive would be to train them to transfer their hunt drive to other objects-- i ecpect that it would include aversion training to snakes and diversion, and reward to things like balls, but frankly not something that ive ever worked with or done. it would mean training the dog to use its prey drive skills when asked to, and not to use them when 'not on duty'.... just guessing . sort of like training a dog to 'speak' and the rest of the time he is not to bark (used on endlessly barking dogs).

bina

israel

[Chinavet]

Our 10 dogs of three age generations are all pedigree Surin Salad. They have free range over several kilometers of river, wetland, forest and rice paddies. I feel we have no chance to train them out of snake encounters or stopping them from going into hunting/play mode when they detect something in the grass or bush. It's interesting though that the older dogs seem to have educated themselves with aversion therapy and keep their distance or pretend to not see when a snake is around. The younger ones instinctively know they are messing with something dangerous but still take big chances. Hope they learn in time!

I have noticed lately on dog 'walks' (a real circus), if the way forward gets to be thick tall grass, they ALL stop and wait for me to go first. Man's best friend?

[bina]

surin salad? ) here we call that particular breed maurav yerushalmi ('jerusalem mix meat' -a play on words for a popular mixed innards meat grilled only in jerusalem)-- so in surin they are vegetarians?

and i guess theyve trained u really really well if u do go first... u are the alpha, its your job.......

bina

israel

[Chinavet]

Bina, would Maurav Surin work? You are right, definitely not vegetarians!

This alpha thing has it's drawbacks....

surin salad? ) here we call that particular breed maurav yerushalmi ('jerusalem mix meat' -a play on words for a popular mixed innards meat grilled only in jerusalem)-- so in surin they are vegetarians?

and i guess theyve trained u really really well if u do go first... u are the alpha, its your job.......

bina

israel

[isanbirder]

A few months ago, a two-metre black snake (I don't know the species, but don't think it's poisonous) came into the house. The first I knew of it was our toy poodle yapping frantically; this roused the other dog (GSX), and between them they cornered the snake, They stayed at a metre or so distance, leaping back if the snake moved. If it had been a cobra, that would have been that. Anyway, they kept the snake where it was until a neighbour could come and catch it. He left in triumph with the snake wrapped round his neck, still alive, and doubtless doomed to the pot. Poodles, in spite of the way they're now made to look like powder puffs, were originally bred as hunting dogs, and this one's behaviour was presumably an inherited memory from those days. I've seen the same dog dive into a bush and catch a Zebra Dove; unfortunately she also thought chickens were fair game, and had to be shunted off to another home before someone poisoned her.

[bina]

poodles were water retrievers (therefore their wierd haircuts) but they do have a good puppy play instinct which means that moving objects are fair game: from balls to snakes to chicks.

[isanbirder]

poodles were water retrievers (therefore their wierd haircuts) but they do have a good puppy play instinct which means that moving objects are fair game: from balls to snakes to chicks.

I don't quite see why the weird haircut helps the dog retrieve? And when does a play instinct become a hunting instinct? When the dog gets older? (By the way, the Zebra Dove was not moving; it was probably sitting on a nest, though I didn't check.)

[alfieconn]

The Snakes can smell the dogs and think that they are Dinner, Snakes can climb so stopping all snakes is virtually impossible

snakes dont really 'smell' like we do; they definately can destinguish between prey and 'large mammal but not meant to be eaten' otherwwise they would be hunting us. most snakes dont willing bite or attack unless bothered; mostly it is our pets that are curious or have a hunting instinct but not the skill that instigate a snake bite.

the mesh could be mildly effective and may also provide u with a false sense of security. the best anti snake practices are keeping snake hidey hole materials like piles of junk, wood, rocks and rags from piling up near the house. keeping food items that attract rats/mice (a snake smorgasbord) from hanging around your house; training dog in whatever methods poeple have found to work. i know arizona has a program for both dogs and horses-- a google should bring it up. my parents (arizona) have some sort of block fencing around their back yard that is apparently also agains snakes, but most snakes there are on the ground; i think thailand has several types that prefer to climb and move among trees (pythons, tree snakes, cobras? )

we had snakes getting in to our voluaires with the parakeets thru little tiny holes. they made a good killing on the baby birds, but then the snakes got too large to leave again, which is how we caught them (israeli vipers in this case).

cats sem to really help with snake proofing large areas.

possible the training of dogs with a high prey drive would be to train them to transfer their hunt drive to other objects-- i ecpect that it would include aversion training to snakes and diversion, and reward to things like balls, but frankly not something that ive ever worked with or done. it would mean training the dog to use its prey drive skills when asked to, and not to use them when 'not on duty'.... just guessing . sort of like training a dog to 'speak' and the rest of the time he is not to bark (used on endlessly barking dogs).

bina

israel

Why only mildly effective Bina ? have you tried this idea ?

[bina]

mesheffectiveness:

because i worked with snakes and snakes can be strong, they can climb, they can go under, u have to maintain the mesh (if its metal) and if its nylon, it will just collapse at some point. snakes got in to our volouaires (large walk in bird cages ) because at various points, the mesh got broken for whatever reasons, leaving small holes that birds wouldnt go down and crawl through but snakes find them as do snakes' prey: frogs, lizards, rats, mice. to mesh an entire yard means addtional maintaince and also gives a false sense of protection (i have mesh, no snakes here). thailands' snakes are tree dwellers also, so u have to remove branches that overhand, wood leaning on the mesh, the posts holding the mesh can be climbed... it may deter but it doesn make an area snake proof. i live in an area with pit vipers (this is israel so we have lots of kinds of vipers) and they climb our stairs to the second story, curl up in and under the floor rags left on the open porch; inside the childrens' kindergarten (how did they get in?), inside our amusement park, in the baby ball pool!! beleive me, we brought in a snake expert who went over that building (after a child was bitten and hosptialized) with a fine tooth comb. he showed us places that none of us would have thought that a snake would enter or could enter, we did as much snake proofing as possible, but he told us that there is no 100% other then just being aware, and not relying on artificial means to prevent snakes from hanging around. of course we have a main snake season only.

thailand has snakes year round. again, my parents in arizona had some special wall that is supposedly to prevent snakes, javelinas and wild cats from entering but it is not that effective as they have a wild cat living in the yard anyhow. and their yard is small.

I don't quite see why the weird haircut helps the dog retrieve?

-- the wierd hair cut was to protect the sensitive ares of the dog: joints, chest and head from the cold water, and the shaved parts were to prevent the dog from becoming water logged. eventually the hair cuts became more of a fashion statement and also more extreme. i raised standard/giant poodles in natural coat-- the coat protects them in the winter but is apt to become a tick infested, burrs and thorn filled mess when the dog is in the woods . ours would run with us when we rode (horses) in maryland. i showed them in natural coat but the judges werent impressed. nowadays i think they can be shown in natural but groomed coat.

the play instinct is the hunting instinct in young pups. that is why , with the mollosser dogs, u teach them at a very young age the commands: leave, drop -- to avoid their instinct of grabbing and holding being developed too much without control. u see it in foxes, wolves and other canines as well as felines. also among ferrets. the way a dog bites is based alot on its original instincts and on what it was bred for. most of the wolf like dogs (talking here about head and face shape and body shape like shepherds/soi dogs/ ) have a slash and bite method, and also stalk.

as for poodles, my neighbhors have a toy poodle, she stalks like a cat after balls, tails (of my dogs), feathers and the pigeons. her 'want to please the owner' instinct that is so bred into poodles and that makes them so easy to train and work with means that she can have that hunting instinct manipulated and changed so that she -all poodles, retrievers- to run after and bring back objects, same as labs,goldens (ever watch labs with frisbees). watch a rat terrier hunt something.

the play that a puppy engages in is the remnants of the canine instinct to hunt. a puppy will stalk and pounce on grass, butterflies, shadows whatever. this is to ready him/her for the future. with dogs, this instinct was developed differently in different breeds for different purposes. that is why some dogs have less of a play /retrieve instinct. the working dog breeds have much more of a play /hunt instinct -- watch them chase a ball and then 'kill' it (the grab and shake). this is all on the tip of the info... much more in google about canines.

a simplified version of the importance of puppy play, not just for the dog to develp social skills among its pack (its litter mates and dam) but also for when wanting to train. it is important to recognize that a dog with a high prey/play drive must be worked with differently then a dog whose prey/play instincts are almost nil (like many of the highly non useful /non working type dogs that were bred as decorative and not for a purpose other then as a companion).

there are other theories but this is the main base . that is why dogs can be trained with diversion and reinforcement of behaviors. when u understand the breed (and a mixed breed is not always as easy unless u know what instinct is strong in the mix) and the purpose of the breed, u can match your training method and also what dog fits you as a person also. of course there are a dozen exceptions to all rules, there are guidelines. an example is : a family that watches tv all day would not want to own a doberman with a working bloodline. the dog would go nuts from boredom.

bina

bina

israel

[isanbirder]

Thanks, Bina, for a very informative answer.

[stevef]

i have used the mothball trick for the last 3 months and have had no snakes previous to that had 5 in a month so dont know if its just the season or it works i was told/led to believe it has nothing to do withe snakes but the smell of the mothballls deters frogs /mice rats etc and so as there is no prey for the snakes they go elsewere ???? it sounded far fetched to me but i tried it anyway just got some fine mesh bags filled them with mothballs and put them under all the drain covers round the garden ,also scattered a few around the garden costs nothing and well if it does nothing else stops the drains form smelling.

[bina]

keep the prey away the predators will hunt somehwhere else. ill have to ask our pest person on the kibbutz (in charge of dealing with rats et al in the public buildings, childrens' houses etc... he's a rat and snake expert.

bina

israel

[lonewolf99]

Not sure if anyone else will read this far into an old forum. But sheeps wool stops snakes. Bizzare but true. Old fashioned shepherds would sleep out rough in the hill. And to deter the snakes they laid wool around them on the ground. The snakes do not like it against their skin. So just lay lengths of wool along the ground around your garden and hopefully the snakes won't venture in.......