Hill Tribes

[keithkarmann]

Has anybody been to visit the Hilltribes close to Chiang Dao? Do you have to book an organised trip or can you drive yourself there and get access to their vilage/s without any problem.The same questions can apply to any of the Hilltribes within easy reach of Chiang Mai. Positive and Negative replies welcome.

Keithkarmann

[canuckamuck]

Many of the Hill tribe people live right in Chaing mai. You can watch them for free. Although you'll have to ask which ones they are.

[orang37]

Has anybody been to visit the Hilltribes close to Chiang Dao?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun KeithKarmann,

Yes, my human went (several years ago when he still was an "I," before he became the nether part of an "us") to a Lisu village near Chiang Dao for the Lisu New Year celebration in late January. Their New Year is, we believe, roughly co-incident with the Chinese Lunar New Year (in 2009 we heard the dates were identical).

He was invited by a woman (a friend, not an intimate companion) he got to know who was working at a restaurant in CM, and stayed in her family home in the village for two nights and almost three days. Lots of dancing, for hours, in a circle, a very simple step and rhythm.

Good food, kind people. Women in lovely tribal dress. Very wonderful. One of the best parts was waking up at 8am after the first night to find about ten children of various ages sitting on the floor watching the farang sleeping in total silence Several Japanese dropped by during the time we were there, but we think we were the only farang "staying over."

Two friends of ours ran an "eco-tour" company called 3rd. Eye Travel in Chiang Mai : Khun Dtaw was at one point voted northern Thailand's "best licensed tour guide" by his peers; We think Khun Dtaw and his American wife Cathy, who headed up the English program at CMU for some years, are back in the US right now, but we suspect the company is still around. You can google for it.

As recently as four years ago, we hooked up two visiting farang women from the US for a day tour with Khun Dtaw, and they visited a hill-tribe village (Karen ?) for a few hours after a trip up to Doi Inthanon. They were delighted with Khun Dtaw's intimate knowledge of flora and fauna, and local traditions, and the fact he could speak excellent English : he was (is ?) very active in ecological movements in northern Thailand : finding a person with attributes like that to go with, unfortunately, may be difficult.

In the absence of an invitation by a village member, my suggestion would be to try and locate an "eco-friendly" tour outfit that will provide you an entree to the village; we suspect other people here on this forum will have some things to add.

Suggest you try to get really clear about what kind of experience you want : just to drop in, take photographs, or a real "homestay" .... Also you might want to share on this thread, if it's you going solo, or with wife, or family, or children, or whoever : that might help get more specific responses.

good luck, ~o:37;

[Matan]

I would suggest trying to befriend hill tribe people in Chiang Mai rather than simply driving into a village and then wandering around peering into huts. Imagine if you were sitting on your front law in summer and a couple of Japanese tourists wandered up and stuck an SLR in your face and started snapping.

I made friends with some hill tribe people in Bangkok and they invited me to spend Christmas in their village, which you can see in my blog

(Thailand Blog)

Chiang Mai obviously has plenty of hill tribe people so if you get to know some you'll surely be able to go on some rewarding private visits to the villages.

[LadyHeather]

I find the observation of people as if they were animals in a zoo quite disturbing. Rather than view the villagers as a tourist attraction perhaps you would be better off volunteering for one of the Chiang Mai based organisations that are helping hill tribes people. Then you might get to know them as individual human beings with real lives rather than objects of interest.

Edited January 5, 2010 by LadyHeather

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You can visit by yourself as well. However an organized trek has the benefit of not having to do any thinking, researching or exploring, and you'll see a lot more in a short time. Plus they often throw in fun things like waterfalls, rafting, elephants, etc. You can pick and choose.

Here is a recent report from someone doing a trek in the Chiang Dao area, presumably booked from Chiang Mai:

http://travellingdad.wordpress.com/2009/12...rek-experience/

But if you have time, and a map, then you can basically venture up just about any small mountain road and expect to find hilltribe villages.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I find the observation of people as if they were animals in a zoo quite disturbing. Rather than view the villagers as a tourist attraction perhaps you would be better off volunteering for one of the Chiang Mai based organisations that are helping hill tribes people. Then you might get to know them as individual human beings with real lives rather than objects of interest.

Oh come on. How is visiting a hill tribe village any different from visiting Chiang Mai Town, or Bangkok, or Hong Kong.. The whole point of travelling is to visit new and different places, and meet different people. I'm not sure where you're coming from on this so I won't make assumptions, but quite often when reading such statements I perceive an undercurrent of wanting to 'preserve their culture and isolation without disurbance' as if it's a group of gorillas in the mist. That, is ludicrous. There's no reason why you wouldn't visit a hilltribe village but would visit a predominantly Thai village or town.

Also consider that it's completely impossible to visit the rural mountainous North and visit forests and waterfalls and NOT pass through hilltribe villages. That scenic winding dirt road is there BECAUSE is leads to a hilltribe village and their fields. So almost inevitably you WILL visit hill tribe villages when venturing out of town into the hills. Unless you advocate slashing your way through the forest to avoid them.

Edited January 5, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Ricardo]

Many of the Hill tribe people live right in Chaing mai. You can watch them for free. Although you'll have to ask which ones they are.

Easily identified by the wooden-frog, which they constantly cause to click, I believe that this may be some mysterious mutual-recognition or intra-tribal-message signal ?

[orang37]

I find the observation of people as if they were animals in a zoo quite disturbing. Rather than view the villagers as a tourist attraction

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Heather,

We find that your fantasies triggered by a simple message expressing a wish to "visit" Hilltribe people, and asking advice ("positive or negative" the OP wrote) : not valuable; just a form of "sniping."

Of course, if you have "psychic powers" you have used to discern that the OP has bad motives here, rather than genuine interest and curiosity, we can only say "nothing"

~o:37;

[Matan]

I find the observation of people as if they were animals in a zoo quite disturbing. Rather than view the villagers as a tourist attraction perhaps you would be better off volunteering for one of the Chiang Mai based organisations that are helping hill tribes people. Then you might get to know them as individual human beings with real lives rather than objects of interest.

Orang why do you refer to yourself as 'we'?

One may have genuine interest and curiosity in any number of people but a lack of malevolence in the motive does not negate the fact that simply turning up unannounced to 'observe' them is akin to viewing animals in a zoo. Particularly if the OP is going to be travelling alone and cannot speak Thai, as almost no one in a hill tribe village is going to be able to speak English and often only the younger ones can even speak Thai.

Your examples are of people who have been invited to stay and have had great times, I suggest that the OP either take a reputable tour, or befriend a hill tribe person in CM (most of the massage workers are hill tribe, for example) and explain he'd like to visit a village.

[anonymouse]

Hill tribe villages must number in the thousands around Northern Thailand, I think most of them are pretty used to farangs visiting and as long as you respect there way of life there should be no problem visiting independently. Probably best to visit the Hill Tribe Museum in CM and get a book on the subject so you have a bit of knowledge about the people before you visit.

I'd recommend going to Mae Salong and doing a few treks around that area, lots of hill tribes in the vacinity and some of the guesthouses are run and owned by them, Shin Sane & Akha Mae Salong Guesthouse are two established one's.

[anonymouse]

I find the observation of people as if they were animals in a zoo quite disturbing. Rather than view the villagers as a tourist attraction perhaps you would be better off volunteering for one of the Chiang Mai based organisations that are helping hill tribes people. Then you might get to know them as individual human beings with real lives rather than objects of interest.

Oh come on. How is visiting a hill tribe village any different from visiting Chiang Mai Town, or Bangkok, or Hong Kong.. The whole point of travelling is to visit new and different places, and meet different people. I'm not sure where you're coming from on this so I won't make assumptions, but quite often when reading such statements I perceive an undercurrent of wanting to 'preserve their culture and isolation without disurbance' as if it's a group of gorillas in the mist. That, is ludicrous. There's no reason why you wouldn't visit a hilltribe village but would visit a predominantly Thai village or town.

Also consider that it's completely impossible to visit the rural mountainous North and visit forests and waterfalls and NOT pass through hilltribe villages. That scenic winding dirt road is there BECAUSE is leads to a hilltribe village and their fields. So almost inevitably you WILL visit hill tribe villages when venturing out of town into the hills. Unless you advocate slashing your way through the forest to avoid them.

Nice one Winnie , agreed it's not as if we are living in the Amazon is it

[elektrified]

Don't go to the hill tribe villages where there are Thais sitting out front collecting money like at a freak show. We went to one near Mae Rim to show a guest who was in town visiting. They wanted 300 Baht! per person to get in. When we asked how much of the money went to the poor people in the village, they couldn't give us an answer so we left.

[newbie001]

I actually have to agree with Heather. I think it is awful to make a people's way of life into a tourist attraction. There are many youths from these tribes that don't want to participate in the ancient customs but are forced by their parents so that they can earn some money from photo happy tourists.

Try doing something like this to a Native American tribe and see how they react.

These people living in their traditional way of life have dignity and reducing them to an agenda on a sight seeing tour is awful.

Imagine if Thais started organizing tours to view how Fat old farrang live in Thailand. How would the members on TV like if their house was on a sight seeing tour? People taking photos of you while you are watering your lawn or trying to have a private picnic with your family?

I think that those that befriend some from these villages are in the right frame of mind, but taking a trip to spy on their way of life is a little too voyeuristic for me.

I do see why many would do it, however I don't really believe that they think of these hill tribe people in the same respect as they would people in their own country.

Would you ever support a tour group into the heart of the Bronx to see how African Americans have a street party? Wow, lets go watch those dark skin people party. They are unique. I came all the way to NY, I want to see black people.

If someone actually talked like that in public, he/she would get slapped. Because it is ignorant. I think that doing it in Thailand is as equally ignorant.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I actually have to agree with Heather. I think it is awful to make a people's way of life into a tourist attraction. There are many youths from these tribes that don't want to participate in the ancient customs but are forced by their parents so that they can earn some money from photo happy tourists.

Which is better than 'not making money'. Either way they'd make them work in the fields or send them into town to work. It's a pretty poor area with limited options. And, when venturing over there on your own, it's VERY likely that you avoid commercialized tourist villages. There are actualy pretty few of those, mostly those that happened to be conveniently located near other attractions such as rafting or elephant camps. The logistics of organizing a trekking tour plays a huge part in the villages they visit. With thousands of villages out there, it's really a small minority that get so many tourists that 'making money from tourism' is even a consideration. But all the more power to villagers who are in a position to do that.

> Try doing something like this to a Native American tribe and see how they react.

What a strange comparison.. You know that tourism in Native American areas is huge right? And then people in North America tend to have pretty dogmatic views when it comes to experiencing, enjoying (or even: 'acknowledging') cultural or ancestral differences. (I avoided two words here which always send a discussion South whenever someone mentions them; first word starts with P.)

> These people living in their traditional way of life have dignity and reducing them to an agenda on a sight seeing tour is awful.

Why does this apply only to the Noble Tribes and not to any other area in the world? I visited London one day. My visit didn't impact their dignity in the slightest. I also visited a tiny village in Wales. Same.

> Imagine if Thais started organizing tours to view how Fat old farrang live in Thailand. How would the members on TV like if

Well guess what, they DO!! Khao San Road was a major attraction for a good while and still is. Same for Pai. You get to see Weird Foreigners. Whatever dignity they have, adding some Thais into the mix didn't diminish it further!

Would you ever support a tour group into the heart of the Bronx to see how African Americans have a street party? Wow, lets go watch those dark skin people party. They are unique. I came all the way to NY, I want to see black people.

Actually I would, and I do. Very much so actually. I'd do my research and pick the event and be respectful and all that, but YES I would definitely want to see different scenes and subcultures.

Edited January 5, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[canuckamuck]

Many of the Hill tribe people live right in Chaing mai. You can watch them for free. Although you'll have to ask which ones they are.

Easily identified by the wooden-frog, which they constantly cause to click, I believe that this may be some mysterious mutual-recognition or intra-tribal-message signal ?

It is a code, but it has more to do with hunting more than just recognition. You can witness this yourself near the Night Bazaar Starbucks. It begins the same every time. First the clicking is very slow and the tribe is split up carefully looking for prey. Then it becomes more rapid when one catches the scent. As each member of the hunting party tries to triangulate the prey they click their frogs more and more rapidly. with each pass they close in. Finally it is a frenzy of frog clicking as they surround their victim. They emerge from cover quickly holding the wooden frogs high, directly in the face of some hapless farang. Nature can be shockingly cruel.

[anonymouse]

I actually have to agree with Heather. I think it is awful to make a people's way of life into a tourist attraction. There are many youths from these tribes that don't want to participate in the ancient customs but are forced by their parents so that they can earn some money from photo happy tourists.

Try doing something like this to a Native American tribe and see how they react.

These people living in their traditional way of life have dignity and reducing them to an agenda on a sight seeing tour is awful.

Imagine if Thais started organizing tours to view how Fat old farrang live in Thailand. How would the members on TV like if their house was on a sight seeing tour? People taking photos of you while you are watering your lawn or trying to have a private picnic with your family?

I think that those that befriend some from these villages are in the right frame of mind, but taking a trip to spy on their way of life is a little too voyeuristic for me.

I do see why many would do it, however I don't really believe that they think of these hill tribe people in the same respect as they would people in their own country.

Would you ever support a tour group into the heart of the Bronx to see how African Americans have a street party? Wow, lets go watch those dark skin people party. They are unique. I came all the way to NY, I want to see black people.

If someone actually talked like that in public, he/she would get slapped. Because it is ignorant. I think that doing it in Thailand is as equally ignorant.

A French couple I know recently spent Christmas in a small village in England because they wanted to see how the English spent a traditional Christmas, I couldn't see it before but you've opened my eyes...

'These people living in their traditional way of life have dignity and reducing them to an agenda on a sight seeing tour is awful'.

I'll be crossing them off my Christmas Card list for 2010

Edited January 5, 2010 by anonymouse

[popmybubble]

Many of the Hill tribe people live right in Chaing mai. You can watch them for free. Although you'll have to ask which ones they are.

Easily identified by the wooden-frog, which they constantly cause to click, I believe that this may be some mysterious mutual-recognition or intra-tribal-message signal ?

It is a code, but it has more to do with hunting more than just recognition. You can witness this yourself near the Night Bazaar Starbucks. It begins the same every time. First the clicking is very slow and the tribe is split up carefully looking for prey. Then it becomes more rapid when one catches the scent. As each member of the hunting party tries to triangulate the prey they click their frogs more and more rapidly. with each pass they close in. Finally it is a frenzy of frog clicking as they surround their victim. They emerge from cover quickly holding the wooden frogs high, directly in the face of some hapless farang. Nature can be shockingly cruel.

haha I love those frogs. Especially the small ones that are painted. Bit off topic but I bought a lush baby pink one for a friend when I was in Laos.

My bf is Karen and doesn't seem to mind or think there's anything wrong with people visiting hill tribe villages, although he books tours and treks and used to be a trekking guide so maybe that's why.

[IanForbes]

Tours are the easiest way to go and at least everything is arranged. It's not like it is very expensive. If you can't afford a $40 day then maybe you should stay back home in whatever country you came from. I DO understand Ladyheather's viewpoint, but the tours have already established the criteria of visiting villages. As already pointed out, the tours usually include an elephant ride, a swim in a lovely stream and a bamboo rafting trip.

I've spent a lot of time in the hill-tribe villages when I've been on fishing trips. It was a marvelous experience. But, our visit WAS pre-arranged by a local who acted as a go-between. The home stay was at minimal cost. The children were delightfull and I later sent a booklet of photos back to the village.

[orang37]

above : Akka children original photo by Orang's human taken several years ago near Chiang Rai.

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

Whilst enjoying the fantasias of negativity vomited here onto a simple request for advice about visiting a hill-tribe village by those infested with the disease known as "political correctness" (you can recognize the disease by its major symptoms : "self-righteousness," and a sense of entitlement to tell other people what they should and should not do) : of course with a sense of compassion for the psychological problems, and real inner suffering, that cause people to need to "purge" themselves via these kinds of projective reality-constructions ...

... and ... while very much enjoying the positive stories, and pictures, being shared, we thought we'd add :

The one time we ever walked "alone," and "uninvited," (this was when there was only a human being in the current meat-package) into a hill-tribe village (Akka in this case) : was when a sudden heavy rain-storm with lots of lightning made it seem imperative to not go back down the trail ... and there was a village.

Our human stopped at the gate which had the usual symbolic regalia : he remembered that the Akka (this was long before he fell in love with, and lived with a very wonderful Akka woman, who was quite educated, in Christian schools, but had spent her childhood in the traditional way of life up on Doi Mae Salong) ...

Had a thing about gates. So he waited there under a poncho, in heavy rain, until a man came along; said hello, and asked the man in Thai if he could cross the gate and enter the village. I waited until he had crossed into the village area, and then made sure we crossed the gate (stepping over) a certain part of the ground directly underneath the cross-beam of the gate ... what was probably some kind of temenos (threshold that separates profane and sacred space) ... just like he did. And he was watching me, watching the way we entered the gate.

Anyway, my human was warmly welcomed, we think people were actually kind of "competing" to see which house he'd go into first, and the "village idiot" (Down's Syndrome for sure) ran out and over to him, and started hugging him in big bear-hugs, and trying to get him to dance. All this still out in the rain.

In my human's imagination, he was fantasizing that the mothers were saying to the kids things like : "look, here's another farang clown."

The villagers were watching my human from inside their shanties/houses and laughing, as my human was laughing. We had a nice night in that village, where we slept, per Akka custom, in the men-only sleeping area, with all the other men : the little house was so smoky it gave us a cough that lasted for two weeks.

Of course my human could not refuse the offer of some home-made lao kao (moonshine), and not being a drinker, he was soon "smashed" from what politeness demanded he imbibe.

The point of all this being that what in America we would call "street smarts," and/or "vibes," come into play here.

Imagine you visit a village, and you "sense," you feel, something is wrong; trust your instincts and leave. You go to a village on a tour, and get a "vibe" that the Thai person leading the tour has bad intentions; leave, bail-out. Get to know the people running your tour, if they are not people someone has referred to you based on their own positive personal recent experiences before you go on the tour.

If in doubt, don't. Be alert, observe what's going on, pay attention to body language and eye contact.

Also, surely you (we) are all sober enough to know that going off alone into hill-tribe villages un-invited in remote areas could be dangerous given the fact that many of the native peoples continue to grow opium.

We will try and check and see if Khun Dtaw is back from the US, since, if he is, he would be a great asset to recommend to those of you wishing to do "ecologically sensitive" visiting of Thaiand's Hill Tribe people, most of whom would be quite happy to meet you :

Being curious about other people is one thing, in our humble opinion, that makes people : "people." We can say with confidence that Orangutans, from whom humans descend, are innately curious, like most all other primates (well, of course, except for those disgusting polymorphously perverse Bonobos* who are so sex-crazed).

regards, ~o:37;

* it's a little known fact in music history that James Brown wrote the hit song ""Get Up (I Feel Like Being a) Sex Machine" after watching Bonobos doing their "thang" at the Atlanta, Georgia zoo. undefined

Edited January 5, 2010 by orang37

[NancyL]

Actually, American Indians don't mind tourists, in the proper context. At one time, Hubby and I employed two brothers who were part American Indian. Their mother was very active in the American Indian pow-wow movement (I guess that's what you'd call it) and they talked about how they were having a pow-pow at their farm one weekend and tribes were coming from all over the region. They asked us to come. We did and had a very pleasant time watching their dancing and looking at the handicrafts for sale. We were made to feel like honored guests.

The concept of political correctness and tourism often conflict. In the December issue of National Geographic, there was a great letter from a reader responding to an article in an earlier issue about Venice. Basically, the article decried how Venice has been ruined by all the tourist traffic. As the letter writer said, "Perhaps your editors can give us some hint as to where we thoughtless, destructive, careless tourists can share some of the privileges of your writers and photographers."

[anonymouse]

Glad the PC Brigade are in the minority in this thread.

If you want to see some real exploitation of Hill Tribe People look to the Thai's who pay them much less than the minimum wage to do there labouring and manual farm jobs and to work in there sweat shops. Look to a goverment that doesn't recognise them as citizens and turns a blind eye when it comes to legal recourse if one gets murdered or raped.

In this global age tourism helps keep alive traditions that might have died out with the rapid industrialisation of Asia.

I don't think most people visit these villages planning on seeing a freak show, they go to learn about the people's way of life and to come away with some knowledge about it.

The only freak show hill tribe experience that I wouldn't visit is the long neck Karen who do seem to be exploited, again by there Thai brethren.

So for all the PC'ers who want to vent there rightous indignation, don't look at whitey look a little closer to home

[Johpa]

Don't go to the hill tribe villages where there are Thais sitting out front collecting money like at a freak show. We went to one near Mae Rim to show a guest who was in town visiting. They wanted 300 Baht! per person to get in. When we asked how much of the money went to the poor people in the village, they couldn't give us an answer so we left.

I don't know how much of the fee goes to the "villagers", but I do know that it employs many people from the surrounding minority villages who would otherwise have no employment. Some of the people you see are seniors who can no longer work as day laborers. One of the young men who collects tickets is also a teacher and a minority member himself, who teaches classes to the younger ones who reside there after the place closes for the day.

Or you could rent a vehicle and travel yourself to some surrounding villages where, unless there happens to be a local festival such as the Lisu New Year, you will see a lot of empty houses as everyone will be working in the fields. Trust me, a highland village in the daytime is pretty dull.

So for many tourists with limited time these tourist villages offer a quick peek at traditional housing and traditional garb. They may not be for everyone, but rest assured the people employed in these "villages" are very happy for the work. And if you visit the one up the Mae Sa Valley near the elephant camp, tell the old ladies in the first house by the entrance that Johpa sends his regards.

[IanForbes]

OH, and please note that I saw VERY little sign of garbage lying about like I do in the cities of Thailand. I don't know what the hill tribe people do with their garbage, but it certainly wasn't evident in the villages I visited and stayed at.

And the 8 hour trip getting there was certainly part of the adventure.

And the homestay cooking was simple and supperb.

[Fishenough]

Bring ear plugs

Yes the food is great isn't it Ian!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Speaking of food, it's good to bring some just in case the only thing on the menu is cabbage and BBQ squirrel. and then share, of course. If you manage to bring seafood up there in some kind of thermo container then you'll make almost as many friends as with a bottle of Johnny Walker (et al) and a bag of candy. bringing interesting yet healthy stuff is good; easy to find a place to cook & share.

[highlander76]

The best place for visiting hill tribes is in Laos in a place called Mung Sing near the border with China very few tourists go there

[Matan]

With regards to what the hill tribe people do about the trash, at the village I stayed at from Dec 20-30, each morning at about 6:30 the older people will sweep it up into piles and either put it into the bins they have (at the village I went to these were made out of tires) or burn it.

Then, on Sunday during the day, all the children will also man brooms and a little sweeping procession goes through the village.

For me, I think it's be much easier if everyone just put the litter in the bins, then there's be no need for all the sweeping.

[Johpa]

OH, and please note that I saw VERY little sign of garbage lying about like I do in the cities of Thailand. I don't know what the hill tribe people do with their garbage, but it certainly wasn't evident in the villages I visited and stayed at.

Villages I have lived at, and I have spent more time that most living in highland villages, the people do one of three things with their trash: recycle bottles and metals for a few baat as a recycler in a pickup truck (if there is a road) comes by a few times a year, burn it (most common method of trash disposal), or bury it. And lest we forget the pigs, and dogs, tend to recycle just about any organic matter. There just isn't as much waste in poorer rural environments as there is waste in urban environments.

[Ricardo]

Many of the Hill tribe people live right in Chaing mai. You can watch them for free. Although you'll have to ask which ones they are.

Easily identified by the wooden-frog, which they constantly cause to click, I believe that this may be some mysterious mutual-recognition or intra-tribal-message signal ?

It is a code, but it has more to do with hunting more than just recognition. You can witness this yourself near the Night Bazaar Starbucks. It begins the same every time. First the clicking is very slow and the tribe is split up carefully looking for prey. Then it becomes more rapid when one catches the scent. As each member of the hunting party tries to triangulate the prey they click their frogs more and more rapidly. with each pass they close in. Finally it is a frenzy of frog clicking as they surround their victim. They emerge from cover quickly holding the wooden frogs high, directly in the face of some hapless farang. Nature can be shockingly cruel.

Thanks for the nature-notes, on apparent behavioural-activity, amongst these flocks of locals. It is a scary wild world out there, in central Chiang Mai, even without the red/yellow-plumed ones !