The Hiv Scam

[Jingthing]

In honor of this thread I have chosen a TV avatar.

And I'm not going to even bother clicking the link - if the odds were 1/249 me and a bunch of friends would all have AIDS. None of us does. Your source is wrong.

Specific statistics will vary country by country and study by study. Its a moving target. However, it is a fact men can get it from unprotected heterosexual vaginal sex. All we can do is work with the current info we have and most rational people think condoms are necessary unless in strictly monogamous relationships after time seasoned testing (and then you have to trust them).

Another point, having unprotected sex with prostitutes is fairly insane even if there wasn't HIV. What about all the other STD's you can get? Syphilis is no picnic and many people miss that they have it until it has done major damage. Getting those increases your risk of catching HIV as well (look it up). BTW, I don't mean to demonize prostitutes. Promiscuous men and women are doing the same things.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[DegenFarang]

it is a fact men can get it from unprotected heterosexual vaginal sex

It is also a fact you can die in a car accident. Do you drive in cars?

It is also a fact your Thai girlfriend or wife could have you killed to keep your money. Do you date or marry Thai women?

It is possible a motorcycle taxi could crash and kill you, do you take motorcycle taxi's?

It is possible you could get hit by a car walking across the street, do you walk across the street?

It is possible you can get electrocuted while taking a shower in a dodgy bungalow, do you take showers in dodgy bungalows?

I'd like to see some statistics of the leading causes of death among foreigners in Thailand. I imagine all of the above (and many others) kill far more of them than people who contract HIV/AIDS from having unprotected vaginal sex with Thai women.

Edited January 8, 2010 by DegenFarang

[chiangmaikelly]

Getting back to the OP, the nurse didn't do anything wrong by not telling the Dutch guy his bargirl had HIV. Her results are her own personal matter. In the States, it's against the law to reveal private medical information to anyone other than the patient, regardless of who's paying for the test.

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

It's a matter of empowerment. Daily, these bargirls are bought as a commodity. One in a while, they like to feel as if they've regained some control.

Also, Thai women are attracted to Thai men. As much as we'd like to think we're "hansum man", we don't look anything like the Thai ideal of attractive. These women may be getting a lot of sex from falang customers, but it's not the kind of sex they want. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a job.

This is Thailand. The one who pays the piper calls the tune. You can go into the office with the lady and get the results, no problem.

[Sheryl]

it is a fact men can get it from unprotected heterosexual vaginal sex

It is also a fact you can die in a car accident. Do you drive in cars?

It is also a fact your Thai girlfriend or wife could have you killed to keep your money. Do you date or marry Thai women?

It is possible a motorcycle taxi could crash and kill you, do you take motorcycle taxi's?

It is possible you could get hit by a car walking across the street, do you walk across the street?

It is possible you can get electrocuted while taking a shower in a dodgy bungalow, do you take showers in dodgy bungalows?

I'd like to see some statistics of the leading causes of death among foreigners in Thailand. I imagine all of the above (and many others) kill far more of them than people who contract HIV/AIDS from having unprotected vaginal sex with Thai women.

The above omits the obvious: yes, in the course of living we take risks, but when there are readily available means of reducing those risks, a sensible person avails of them.

i.e:

wears a seat belt and drives carefully

looks both ways before crossing street or uses overpass

and

uses a condom

[chiangmaikelly]

Hookers in Thailand get HIV from their Thai boyfriends. I hope that is not news to anyone. 99% of hookers in Thailand have Thai boyfriends and I also hope that is not news to anyone.

Few bars test for HIV. A couple do. Some get a doctor to come in monthly and a couple have the girls go to clinics weekly. Monthly they test for HIV and weekly for vaginal problems.

I have seen numerous occasions when the girls had to clear out of the bar because of a positive test. It is sad. Then the ladies go to another bar and get a job that doesn't require a test.

The hookers sleep with boys who work in gay bars. The guys who work in gay bars will do anything with anyone from anywhere.

I was going to say all of this but you beat me to it.

You also leave out, that a large portion of working girls will take their hard earned money and head to the male karaoke bars and pay Thai boys to have sex with them. As you stated, it is no surprise to know these guys also many times service men. Many of the girls have boyfriends who work in these same bars. It's a mess.

i dont doubt much of this

and these are excellent points

but when i read:

that a large portion of working girls will take their hard earned money and head to the male karaoke bars and pay Thai boys to have sex with them

i am thinking arrii wha??????

jing jing law?????

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

Not only working but affluent Thai women. This country is much more liberal for women than most realize. It is a status symbol for a woman to have a paid for gik. There are two large clubs in Pattaya that are mostly Thai with live bands and top notch entertainment they kick into gear around midnight. All of the entertainers are for rent both men and women. Check out the crowd. Hi so women and bar girls and office girls. Both clubs have Issan in the name. Farang can go. They treated me well, no rip offs or problems. Good bands and singers. You will get an education if you keep your eyes open.

[Sheryl]

Now back to the original post and also some of the things posted thereafter.

1. As one poster mentioned, it is neither legal nor ethical to tell anyone but the patient what the results of their HIV test was, so the clinic in question did not do anything wrong. Adding to this the fact that a person may still test negative when in the early stages of HIV infection, could get infected anytime after being tested (even if you think she is seeing you exclusively ) and that there are reported to be quite a few fake negative HIV test reports floating about, and this idea that having a partner tested for HIV can remove the need to use protection just doesn't hold up.

A (male, heterosexual) TV member contacted HIV in Thailand -- and yes, it does happen -- by not using condoms with women once he felt he knew them well enough and they had been tested. Whether he got infected because one of these ladies was still in early stages of infection when tested and had not seroconverted, or because one of them went and got infected subsequent to being tested (his trust in her notwithstanding!), who knows.

Use condoms.

2. The pattern of HIV infection (and the viral serotype) in SE Asia differs from that ion the West. The majority of transmission is heterosexual.. Sex workers, their clients, and these client's wives comprise the majority of infected persons.

3. Contrary to what one poster stated, the rates of HIV infection is not that much lower among women than in men. Approximately 40% of persons living with HIV are female. While a (comparatively) small number of HIV infecetd sex workers can infect a large number of men, the rates even out as many of these men go on to infect their wives. http://apps.who.int/globalatlas/predefined.../EFS2008_TH.pdf

4. As has been discussed many, many times before in this forum, any etsimate of risk of transmission is an average and not the risk that a specific man faces in an encounter with a specific HIV-infected woman. Actual risks of transmission in specific sexual encounters vary enormously and are affected by, among other things, the viral load of the infected person, the presence or absence of sores or abrasions in their genitalia (in women these are often internal and not apparent to the partner), and whether the man is circumscised. Should also add that data on average risks of female to male transmission are sketchy and largely derived from studies of monogamous sero-discordant couples in the west, of dubious applicability here.

5. Remedial math: if there is a 1 in 500 (or 100, or 200, or whatever) risk of something happening this does not mean that it is unlikely to happen until there have been 500 occurrences. At every given exposure the risk is the same and the cumultaive probability is the number of exposures times that risk. In other words, 100 exposures to a 0.1% (1:1000) risk = cumulative probability of 10%. But as mentioned there is in fact no single standard percentage for the risk, it will be different at each exposure based on factors you have no way of ascertaining.

6. The difference between HIV and AIDs is that AIDs is the condition of immune deficiency which the HIV virus causes if it continues unchecked. Nowadays antiretroviral medicationa are usually effective in preventing that from happening, although they must be taken for life. The link between HIV and AIDs has been thoroughly proven.

[Tenchu]

When I met my girl (who later became my wife), we had to get a HIV/AIDs/Cancer test thingy.

We went to Praram 9, I think thats supposed to be a pretty good hospital (<deleted>**ing expensive). When they gave us the test results, the nurse came up with 2 envelopes. I tried to grab them both, but she would not give them to me. She would only give me my one, and she gave my girl the other one. The impression was, AIDs or not, it's not my test and not my business.

After that, I find it odd that the nurses at the clinic in the OP would be attempting to tell the man details about the woman.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Tenchu

[DegenFarang]

it is a fact men can get it from unprotected heterosexual vaginal sex

It is also a fact you can die in a car accident. Do you drive in cars?

It is also a fact your Thai girlfriend or wife could have you killed to keep your money. Do you date or marry Thai women?

It is possible a motorcycle taxi could crash and kill you, do you take motorcycle taxi's?

It is possible you could get hit by a car walking across the street, do you walk across the street?

It is possible you can get electrocuted while taking a shower in a dodgy bungalow, do you take showers in dodgy bungalows?

I'd like to see some statistics of the leading causes of death among foreigners in Thailand. I imagine all of the above (and many others) kill far more of them than people who contract HIV/AIDS from having unprotected vaginal sex with Thai women.

The above omits the obvious: yes, in the course of living we take risks, but when there are readily available means of reducing those risks, a sensible person avails of them.

i.e:

wears a seat belt and drives carefully

looks both ways before crossing street or uses overpass

and

uses a condom

I guess 95% of the people who ride motorbikes on the islands are not sensible people then, because none of them wear helmets. Not wearing a helmet riding a motorbike on the islands is far more dangerous than not wearing a condom while having sex with a prostitute.

[chiangmaikelly]

When I met my girl (who later became my wife), we had to get a HIV/AIDs/Cancer test thingy.

We went to Praram 9, I think thats supposed to be a pretty good hospital (<deleted>**ing expensive). When they gave us the test results, the nurse came up with 2 envelopes. I tried to grab them both, but she would not give them to me. She would only give me my one, and she gave my girl the other one. The impression was, AIDs or not, it's not my test and not my business.

After that, I find it odd that the nurses at the clinic in the OP would be attempting to tell the man details about the woman.

I got an emergency appendectomy at a Thai government hospital after my appendix exploded. After the surgery there were 6 women friends and associates in my room.

An orderly came in and announced that there was a special on HIV tests for only 300 baht and asked if I wanted one. The room got quiet and all the women looked at me. I was still a bit groggy from the operation. I couldn’t think of anything else to say but OK. All of the ladies waited in my room till the orderly came back in a couple of hours and told me the test was negative.

Different strokes I guess. Not all hospitals and clinics are the same.

[bellste]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000.

Go on... I'm listening.

That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

Whew. I've got 538 more years of bare back shagging to go!

You must not lsiten to that sort of nonsense!

"among injecting drug users rose dramatically from almost zero to 40%. The prevalence among sex workers also increased, with studies in Chang Mai suggesting that 44% of sex workers were infected with HIV.

The rising level of infection among sex workers led to subsequent waves of the epidemic among the male clients of sex workers, their wives and partners, and their children"

http://www.avert.org/aidsthai.htm

Edited January 9, 2010 by bellste

[deejah]

i am no expert

my understanding is HIV and AIDS are not the same

and there is no PROVEN link between the two

i cant back any of this up right now

but it is good food for thought

and certainly can ignite much debate

The usual backup to claims such as that are links to conspiracy theory websites.

which would you trust more mainstream media or alternative sources?

what is the alternative medias' agenda in trying to expose conspiracies?

[Samuian]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000.

Go on... I'm listening.

That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

Whew. I've got 538 more years of bare back shagging to go!

You must not lsiten to that sort of nonsense!

"among injecting drug users rose dramatically from almost zero to 40%. The prevalence among sex workers also increased, with studies in Chang Mai suggesting that 44% of sex workers were infected with HIV.

The rising level of infection among sex workers led to subsequent waves of the epidemic among the male clients of sex workers, their wives and partners, and their children"

http://www.avert.org/aidsthai.htm

Yes, 44% of those tested/questioned!

Get real!

as drug abuse and prostitution goes along like twins,

there maybe a larger number who may use "recreational drugs",

but certainly not every2nd in the trade is hooked to intravenous drug abuse!

Well, however it's up to the person's judgement, when to do what.

Skydiving without a shute none would really like to do, but on the contrary,

many, many are willing to take similar risks, because it's convenient, better what ever...

Who would go diving without proper gear...people buy cars with airbags, yeah, mentined already,

the safety belt... but then...

Ahh..well.. then it up to the driver to use it!

[deejah]

Getting back to the OP, the nurse didn't do anything wrong by not telling the Dutch guy his bargirl had HIV. Her results are her own personal matter. In the States, it's against the law to reveal private medical information to anyone other than the patient, regardless of who's paying for the test.

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

It's a matter of empowerment. Daily, these bargirls are bought as a commodity. One in a while, they like to feel as if they've regained some control.

Also, Thai women are attracted to Thai men. As much as we'd like to think we're "hansum man", we don't look anything like the Thai ideal of attractive. These women may be getting a lot of sex from falang customers, but it's not the kind of sex they want. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a job.

a bit OT

when i dated thai gals in bangkok

on more than one occasion

i have been told by thai gals

that once a thai gal has a farang

they rarely go back to thais

but this is not in regards to 'working gals' (paid for sex)

i am still under the impression many thai gals are very unhappy with thai guys and prefer farang for many reasons

('not the kind of sex they want'?

no love? not same race?

you mean in regards to paid for sex?

thai gals prefer casual sex with thai guys?)

a bit more on topic:

talk about testing and disease with your partner

lubricate (not with oil) the inside of the condom so there is more stimulation like bareback

the longer you have sex with the same condom on the more like real sex it may feel

right after sex wash your ENTIRE area with soap and water and be sure to PEE

if you must ride bareback, the shorter the better, and be sure to do the above cleaning

oral sex may have its dangers but it is often a way of verifying someones general sexual health before you take the plunge

[MJP]

I was speaking with a couple of older ladies in Pattaya recently, we were discussing HIV and attitudes towards it amongst the 'worker' population. It seems ever since the generic ARV's have been made available by the government the fear of HIV/AIDS has all but gone. They told me people are no longer scared of it because the pills provided by the government keep you alive.

Add to that and I'll try and find the link, between 2001 and 2005 (I think) 74% of new male British HIV infections happened whilst abroad, 29% of those in Thailand.

[DegenFarang]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000.

Go on... I'm listening.

That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

Whew. I've got 538 more years of bare back shagging to go!

You must not lsiten to that sort of nonsense!

"among injecting drug users rose dramatically from almost zero to 40%. The prevalence among sex workers also increased, with studies in Chang Mai suggesting that 44% of sex workers were infected with HIV.

The rising level of infection among sex workers led to subsequent waves of the epidemic among the male clients of sex workers, their wives and partners, and their children"

http://www.avert.org/aidsthai.htm

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

No f'n way. I'll bet anybody basically any amount of money that we can go to Nana or Soi Cowboy and Bar Fine 25 whores and not more than 2 of them will have HIV or AIDS. Seriously. Anybody. Let's settle this debate once and for all - then you can send the results off to these retarded websites you guys keep citing claiming that 90% of Thai people have full blow AIDS.

[OriginalPoster]

i am no expert

my understanding is HIV and AIDS are not the same

and there is no PROVEN link between the two

i cant back any of this up right now

but it is good food for thought

and certainly can ignite much debate

The usual backup to claims such as that are links to conspiracy theory websites.

which would you trust more mainstream media or alternative sources?

what is the alternative medias' agenda in trying to expose conspiracies?

Who is "alternative media"?

[chiangmaikelly]

Getting back to the OP, the nurse didn't do anything wrong by not telling the Dutch guy his bargirl had HIV. Her results are her own personal matter. In the States, it's against the law to reveal private medical information to anyone other than the patient, regardless of who's paying for the test.

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

It's a matter of empowerment. Daily, these bargirls are bought as a commodity. One in a while, they like to feel as if they've regained some control.

Also, Thai women are attracted to Thai men. As much as we'd like to think we're "hansum man", we don't look anything like the Thai ideal of attractive. These women may be getting a lot of sex from falang customers, but it's not the kind of sex they want. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a job.

a bit OT

when i dated thai gals in bangkok

on more than one occasion

i have been told by thai gals

that once a thai gal has a farang

they rarely go back to thais

but this is not in regards to 'working gals' (paid for sex)

i am still under the impression many thai gals are very unhappy with thai guys and prefer farang for many reasons

('not the kind of sex they want'?

no love? not same race?

you mean in regards to paid for sex?

thai gals prefer casual sex with thai guys?)

a bit more on topic:

talk about testing and disease with your partner

lubricate (not with oil) the inside of the condom so there is more stimulation like bareback

the longer you have sex with the same condom on the more like real sex it may feel

right after sex wash your ENTIRE area with soap and water and be sure to PEE

if you must ride bareback, the shorter the better, and be sure to do the above cleaning

oral sex may have its dangers but it is often a way of verifying someones general sexual health before you take the plunge

Ask someone who speaks Thai and who lives with or has lived with a bar girl for a year or so.

After a year they forget you speak Thai an converse away on the phone like you weren't there.

Thai's love Thais. If you haven't figured that out you have not lived here long or have not looked.

Sure there are lots of reasons to like Farang guys over Thais. But that rarely happens. Heavy girls may be the exception. Thais believe stereotypes the same as we do. I overheard a conversation a couple of days ago that was hilarious but I don't think I can relate it here, suffice it to say that one heavy Thai lady had found paradise on earth and was telling the story.

A couple of cautions, lubricating the inside of the condom may make it fall off easier. I have also had three break in three years.

I have heard both sides of the washing issue. There are two sides.

I have gotten a urethra infection from oral sex. It can happen. I don't know if mouthwash will make you safe between customers. Maybe someone knows.

A friend of mine is a madam. She has no reason to lie to me and she says 90% of the girls have Thai boyfriends. A lady friend of mine who knows a lot of working ladies because of her business (hair salon) says 99%. She has no reason to lie to me either.

A Philippine lady teacher friend (in Thailand) of mine just traded a Farang for a Thai. She says the Thai guys are better. And the lady has had more pricks than a porcupine as my granny used to say, she should know.

One way it would seem prudent to conduct yourself so as not to be surprised if your Thai lady has a Thai man on the side.

[WarpSpeed]

Herpes? I don't know. I think you might as well figure getting herpes. Everyone in Pattaya has it anyway. It's not going to kill you.

Misinformation...It can eventually through associated liver disease as well it opens the gate way for many others that can.. Usually something else gets you first but fact is it can kill you over time..

Edited January 9, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[Roger_JG]

It is possible you can get electrocuted while taking a shower in a dodgy bungalow, do you take showers in dodgy bungalows?

I'd like to see some statistics of the leading causes of death among foreigners in Thailand. I imagine all of the above (and many others) kill far more of them than people who contract HIV/AIDS from having unprotected vaginal sex with Thai women.

If you want to be stupid enough to risk your life it is up to you, but as someone said, don't preach your nonsense.

It is clear you don't understand what the risk is or how it works. Yes, the overall risk for a man to being infected by an HIV positive women is low, but that does, not mean that you can have sex for several year before being infected, it means that the very next time you have sex you could be infected and then never have another infectious experience for the next 548 years.

Then what do you know of the viral load of your partner? This is a very important factor. If she has been recently infected, she has a very high viral load and therefore is much more infectious and the odds of transmission are very different.

If risks of infection were negligible, how to explain that between 600,000 and one million Thai are infected? And what about 33 million worldwide, 25 million deaths during the last 25 years?

So go on, have unprotected sex, risk your life if you wish, endanger the life of other you are barebaking with or even that you may love one day, then come back home, and we will pay for your treatment.

There is a thai saying for people like you: tam dii, dai dii, tam chua, dai chua.

[Jingthing]

Agree with above. It is one thing to decide to ignore risks yourself as an adult. It is a completely different thing to try to propagandize other people to take the same crazy risks. Not to mention that people ignoring the risks if they do get infected with various STDs will continue to have unsafe sex, infecting others, continuing the cycle. (Sometimes they know they are infected, sometimes not.) The infectious agents love you! Also, I know for a fact many infected people who know they are infected, are mad at the world and consciously have unprotected sex.

A related topic. Now that the science is showing that CIRCUMCISION reduces the chance of HIV infection, why aren't the Thais widely adopting this practice for babies?

In case you don't know, the vast majority of non-Muslim Thai men are uncut.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Jingthing

[hhgz]

"I am no expert...my understanding is HIV and AIDS are not the same...and there is no PROVEN link between the two"

They are related, and there is a link.

"i cant back any of this up right now"

That's because you are wrong.

"but it is good food for thought and certainly can ignite much debate"

The only thing up for debate is how much you do not know.

[geriatrickid]

When accounting for your variables their literature says 1.4% of adults 15-49 have HIV/AIDS. However it says there are 560,000 adults 15+ have HIV/AIDS and only 220,000 of those are women - leaving 340,000 of them as men. Without doing the actual math I'm going to guess that this makes my numbers still roughly accurate with regard to having unprotected sex with a woman - however lets go with the 1.4% number and see how that changes things:

(1/2000) X (14/1000) = 14/2,000,000 = you can have unprotected sex with a woman every night for 391.4 years before contracting HIV/AIDS.

You still have not accounted for the concept of a population reservoir. Although HIV is present in all demographic groups it can be "insignificant" in some and "significant" in others. The likelihood of of an elderly monk or middle aged mom being sero positive is low, while the likelihood of those engaged in sexual work will be high. It's like fishing in some areas. yes there are fish in the Gulf of Thailand, but basically its been fished out. On the other hand, if you fish in the Andaman Sea you will get something. You are assuming that there is no difference in the type of person that would transact with you and the typical Thai that has relationship or is single. The majority of Thai females do not engage in pay for play. The rate of infection is significantly higher in those that do.

[Tolley]

I did the HIV test at BPH with my girl and they gave us both our results and the doctor spoke to both of us.

As for how many girls have Thai boyfriends I know quite a few that don't and have given up on Thaimen.

WHen i asked them how many of the girls had thai boyfriends they told me about 7 5 percent.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Tolley

[DegenFarang]

When accounting for your variables their literature says 1.4% of adults 15-49 have HIV/AIDS. However it says there are 560,000 adults 15+ have HIV/AIDS and only 220,000 of those are women - leaving 340,000 of them as men. Without doing the actual math I'm going to guess that this makes my numbers still roughly accurate with regard to having unprotected sex with a woman - however lets go with the 1.4% number and see how that changes things:

(1/2000) X (14/1000) = 14/2,000,000 = you can have unprotected sex with a woman every night for 391.4 years before contracting HIV/AIDS.

You still have not accounted for the concept of a population reservoir. Although HIV is present in all demographic groups it can be "insignificant" in some and "significant" in others. The likelihood of of an elderly monk or middle aged mom being sero positive is low, while the likelihood of those engaged in sexual work will be high. It's like fishing in some areas. yes there are fish in the Gulf of Thailand, but basically its been fished out. On the other hand, if you fish in the Andaman Sea you will get something. You are assuming that there is no difference in the type of person that would transact with you and the typical Thai that has relationship or is single. The majority of Thai females do not engage in pay for play. The rate of infection is significantly higher in those that do.

Again you bring up elderly people - 1.4% is people 15-49 and most of those who have it are men.

That said you are obviously correct and though having unprotected sex in Thailand in my view, is generally safe (my definition of safe is that you can do it everyday for the rest of your life and most likely never catch an incurable disease - if your definition of unsafe is that is is possible you can die from the activity, then it is unsafe - most rational people examine what is probable, not what is possible, but to each his own) , doing so on a regular basis with sex workers obviously increases your odds of transmission greatly compared to if you were to simply do it with regular Thai girls.

Rough math without pulling out a calculator: You can sleep with a prostitute every night unprotected for 200 year without getting HIV/AIDS whereas you could sleep with a regular non-sex worker every night for 450 years without getting HIV/AIDS and you could write a motorcycle around Koh Samui everyday without a helmet for 50 years before you get killed or you can take a motorcycle taxi 5 miles in Bangkok everyday for 35 years before you get killed. Choose your poison.

If risks of infection were negligible, how to explain that between 600,000 and one million Thai are infected? And what about 33 million worldwide, 25 million deaths during the last 25 years?

Of those 600,000-1,000,000 (not sure where you got those numbers, they are even higher than the Christian Missionary propaganda I have, but lets go with them anyway) the majority of them are Thai men. Presumably a very large number of these are men who obtained it via gay anal sex. Of those that are women, presumably nearly all of them gained it while working in the sex industry or by having sex with an infected Thai male partner who got it from gay anal sex or having sex with sex workers.

Nowhere in that equation do I find white men. White mean are far less susceptible to transmission than Thai men who have gay anal sex, Thai women who get paid to have sex and Thai men who are uncircumcised and having sex with sex workers who may have HIV/AIDS.

As for the worldwide numbers, a small minority of those are white circumcised men who got the disease from having unprotected vaginal sex with a woman. A large majority are gay men, uncircumcised men and people in Africa where for whatever reason, AIDS flourishes..

Edited January 10, 2010 by DegenFarang

[DegenFarang]

It is possible you can get electrocuted while taking a shower in a dodgy bungalow, do you take showers in dodgy bungalows?

I'd like to see some statistics of the leading causes of death among foreigners in Thailand. I imagine all of the above (and many others) kill far more of them than people who contract HIV/AIDS from having unprotected vaginal sex with Thai women.

If you want to be stupid enough to risk your life it is up to you, but as someone said, don't preach your nonsense.

It is clear you don't understand what the risk is or how it works. Yes, the overall risk for a man to being infected by an HIV positive women is low, but that does, not mean that you can have sex for several year before being infected, it means that the very next time you have sex you could be infected and then never have another infectious experience for the next 548 years.

Then what do you know of the viral load of your partner? This is a very important factor. If she has been recently infected, she has a very high viral load and therefore is much more infectious and the odds of transmission are very different.

If risks of infection were negligible, how to explain that between 600,000 and one million Thai are infected? And what about 33 million worldwide, 25 million deaths during the last 25 years?

So go on, have unprotected sex, risk your life if you wish, endanger the life of other you are barebaking with or even that you may love one day, then come back home, and we will pay for your treatment.

There is a thai saying for people like you: tam dii, dai dii, tam chua, dai chua.

Your understanding of statistics and probability is clearly at an infantile level so I will not even bother wasting my time refuting this nonsense. However you have obviously drank the HIV/AIDS kool aid fed to you in the west - so keep denying yourself the pleasure of unprotected sex when the odds of you dying from doing so are less than that of you crashing in an airplane (but I'm sure you have no problem getting on an airplane).

[ArthurPewty]

Degan, I imagine large swathes of Africa has the same logic as you, but now wish they didn't.

As for chance, what if you are the 1 in 2000 that then passes it to 10 more who pass it to.............

[bangon04]

You still have not accounted for the concept of a population reservoir. Although HIV is present in all demographic groups it can be "insignificant" in some and "significant" in others. The likelihood of of an elderly monk or middle aged mom being sero positive is low, while the likelihood of those engaged in sexual work will be high. It's like fishing in some areas. yes there are fish in the Gulf of Thailand, but basically its been fished out. On the other hand, if you fish in the Andaman Sea you will get something. You are assuming that there is no difference in the type of person that would transact with you and the typical Thai that has relationship or is single. The majority of Thai females do not engage in pay for play. The rate of infection is significantly higher in those that do.

but apparently the majority of their Thai men (boyfriends, husbands etc do, so what is the difference?

[chiangmaikelly]

You still have not accounted for the concept of a population reservoir. Although HIV is present in all demographic groups it can be "insignificant" in some and "significant" in others. The likelihood of of an elderly monk or middle aged mom being sero positive is low, while the likelihood of those engaged in sexual work will be high. It's like fishing in some areas. yes there are fish in the Gulf of Thailand, but basically its been fished out. On the other hand, if you fish in the Andaman Sea you will get something. You are assuming that there is no difference in the type of person that would transact with you and the typical Thai that has relationship or is single. The majority of Thai females do not engage in pay for play. The rate of infection is significantly higher in those that do.

but apparently the majority of their Thai men (boyfriends, husbands etc do, so what is the difference?

This short sentance above might be one of the most important things ever posted on ThaiVisa. If you read nothing else today read this. And not just Thai men of course but all males in Thailand.

[Sheryl]

....Rough math without pulling out a calculator: You can sleep with a prostitute every night unprotected for 200 year without getting HIV/AIDS whereas you could sleep with a regular non-sex worker every night for 450 years without getting HIV/AIDS and you could write a motorcycle around Koh Samui everyday without a helmet for 50 years before you get killed or you can take a motorcycle taxi 5 miles in Bangkok everyday for 35 years before you get killed. Choose your poison.

Please see post #38. Both the math and the assumption that there is a single rate of risk of transmission are faulty.

...Of those 600,000-1,000,000 (not sure where you got those numbers, they are even higher than the Christian Missionary propaganda I have, but lets go with them anyway) the majority of them are Thai men. Presumably a very large number of these are men who obtained it via gay anal sex. Of those that are women, presumably nearly all of them gained it while working in the sex industry or by having sex with an infected Thai male partner who got it from gay anal sex or having sex with sex workers.

600,000 is indeed aboput right, it is in the middle of the range estimated of 400,000 - 860,000 for 2007. The estimates are a range because actual prevalence is known only for specific sub-groups of the population (including pregnant women, via data from antenatal clinics, and men in the military) and when using this data to project prevalence for the entire assumptions have to be input; the range represents the lowest and highest result you can get depending on the assumptiosn used. (Assumptions being such things as what percent of pregnant women received ante-natal care from public clinics, etc).

About 40% are women of these are women.

http://apps.who.int/globalatlas/predefined.../EFS2008_TH.pdf

...Nowhere in that equation do I find white men. White mean are far less susceptible to transmission than Thai men who have gay anal sex, Thai women who get paid to have sex and Thai men who are uncircumcised and having sex with sex workers who may have HIV/AIDS.

Naturally the data on HIV in Thailand focuses on Thais.. There have been no studies on the prevalence of HIV in foreigners living in Thailand and given how transitory that population is it would be almost impossible to do.

There is AFAIK no plausible physiological reason to believe that western men per se (independent of circumcision status) would be any less at risk than Thai men given unprotected sex with the same infected women.

As for the worldwide numbers, a small minority of those are white circumcised men who got the disease from having unprotected vaginal sex with a woman. A large majority are gay men, uncircumcised men and people in Africa where for whatever reason, AIDS flourishes..

And heterosexuals in South and East Asia.

[DegenFarang]

There is AFAIK no plausible physiological reason to believe that western men per se (independent of circumcision status) would be any less at risk than Thai men given unprotected sex with the same infected women.

That's a bit like saying 'there is no plausible reason to believe foreigners are more likely to die in a motorbike accident than thai's (independent of whether or not they wore a helmet) given they were driving on the same road with the same motorbike.

Circumcision has a dramatic effect. And most of the Thai men who have AIDS are likely gay anyway.