A Question Regarding Debt And New Starts

[themana]

Hello there, my fellow forum dwellers.

I come to you with a bit of a conundrum, hoping I can find some advice here that can help me make a decision.

I am a Spaniard... well, recent Spaniard actually, I immigrated to Spain some years ago with the idea of settling down and making a living over here. Then came the crisis and everything went to pot. Thing is, I have some debts with my bank, but I also have some money available to me. The way things stand, I still have another 4 years to go to finish paying off my debts... and word of mouth says that even in 5 years Spain isn't going to be showing much economic growth. However, I have a friend here in Thailand that I would very much like to come live with. I've done research and it seems fairly easy for me to obtain a Student or ED visa, come over to Thailand, take a Thai course and then a TEFL and then get a job teaching English to switch over to a Work Visa. In short, I'd like to start over. I have no qualms about waving Spain goodbye and having a more peaceful life in Thailand. However, what I do wonder and worry over is whether the debt I'd leave behind in Spain would come back to haunt me. =/ I have no intention of returning to Spain, but I don't want to screw up coming to Thailand and learning that my european debt is somehow reflected, and so Thai banks restrict my operations and access to financial services like loans. I'm not looking to get in debt again, but I would like to be able to access a small loan if the need would ever arise. I'd also like to get back in college. I interrupted my college education to immigrate thinking I'd pick it up again once things were settled in Spain, but as you can surmise, there has just been no way. I don't want my life to be on hold for 4 years or more simply because greedy banks were too interested in reaping profits. Part of starting over in Thailand would include me returning to college life, hopefully. ^^

So, what do you good people say? Any advice on the matter?

Thanks in advance!

[ericB]

General rule : Often telling the truth will help. Speak to your bank, tell them you will come here, and ask them what solution do they propose for you , assuming you are willing to reimburse your debt.

Maybe the key is to know IF you want to pay it , but are just scare the bank will simply take everything from you; or if you are simply looking for quick exit.

In the first case, mostly as long as you pay, banks will not mind if you are in Tahiland, Malaga or New Granada. It might be some technical problems (such make sure money is send by your thai bank every month) , so a talk with your spanish bank will be usefull. I speak from experience , having similar situation in early 2002. Things went smooth (but one month).

If you want to just have quick exit, assuming we are spoken about a small amount, things will be safe here as long as you keep a low profile. But it will also mean you will have problem to renew your passport, you will have problem if you return to Spain (or E.U. in general). If the amoutn is small, it will not be a crime, but delictuous act and nto worth international warrant. Still it will be worth to detain you if you come back in Europe, or to refuse to issue a new passport (you will get only a temporary pass valid for an exit indirection of Spain).

Friendly advice, speak to your bank, tell you want to continue to pay off your debt, but you haveto move for professional reason (you got an interview for a job in Thailand ...) and ask them for the modus operanti. Do not forget to stress out Thailand is a 3rd world country, with low wages, so a sensible renegociation of the montly payment is necessary (better to have a little than nothing). Do Not Run Away as it would jeopardise your future.

[jontom]

'A good friend of mine' was in the same position but with unsecured debts with uk credit card companies and banks. After trying unsuccesfully to negotiate with them over repayments after he lost his job and got divorced he decided he had tried his best and left the country. In over 7 years he has never heard anything from them in Thailand despite being traceable via facebook etc and they probably now are written off (about 200,000 euros) Hope that helps.

[jontom]

'A good friend of mine' was in the same position but with unsecured debts with uk credit card companies and banks. After trying unsuccesfully to negotiate with them over repayments after he lost his job and got divorced he decided he had tried his best and left the country. In over 7 years he has never heard anything from them in Thailand despite being traceable via facebook etc and they probably now are written off (about 200,000 euros) Hope that helps.

ps this friend had no problems opening up Thai bank accounts for savings accounts even before he started working complete with atms but no credit facilities.It was good for him to start again and has now shown he can live without borrowing.

[jdinasia]

You won't be getting any credit in Thaiand and if/when you leave you may have credit issues hurting you badly in Spain/Europe.

[britmaveric]

Stay in Spain and pay off your debt after all you created it.

[paulchiangmai]

"In short, I'd like to start over again." Don't you understand themana that all of us that have debts would like to start over again and just leave them behind. Most of us don't because we have a certain sense of responsibility. May I suggest you put every effort in to paying off the debts you incurred , you have money coming to you? Use that as a starter. The novelty of the friend or indeed Thailand may well wear off before long and you just might want to return to Europe. Start with a clean slate. When you are in your 40's and 50's write me then and tell me I was wrong. Good luck with your future but make it a responsible one.

[ExpatJ]

Try negotiaiting with them first- tell them you have moved to another part of the world and that you are willing to make small payments to a reduced level of overall debt (worked for a friend of mine). If you default, the standard procedure is they will sell the debt to a private debt collecting agency (for 20 p in the pound for example), the agency may then try to track you down if your debt was high enough (and they wont be too friendly either). But ifs its less than 5-10 K $/pounds they probably wouldn't bother. But if they find out you are in Thailand it may be they would come over here to combine it with a nice holiday in the sun (seriously). My friend who i mentioned earlier had moved to work in Pakistan for a contract, not very tempting destination for a debt collector.

Having said that you would never be able to open a bank account in spain again and possibly elsewhere in europe (im not sure how interconnected the backs are in the EU, but i wouldnt be surprised if they do swap info like this).

[jontom]

Try negotiaiting with them first- tell them you have moved to another part of the world and that you are willing to make small payments to a reduced level of overall debt (worked for a friend of mine). If you default, the standard procedure is they will sell the debt to a private debt collecting agency (for 20 p in the pound for example), the agency may then try to track you down if your debt was high enough (and they wont be too friendly either). But ifs its less than 5-10 K $/pounds they probably wouldn't bother. But if they find out you are in Thailand it may be they would come over here to combine it with a nice holiday in the sun (seriously). My friend who i mentioned earlier had moved to work in Pakistan for a contract, not very tempting destination for a debt collector.

Having said that you would never be able to open a bank account in spain again and possibly elsewhere in europe (im not sure how interconnected the backs are in the EU, but i wouldnt be surprised if they do swap info like this).

They wont touch you while you are in Thailand otherwise 'my friend' would have been got to a long time ago. He hadnt done anything illegal but just got into financial problems.You wont have any credit facilities in Spain but so what?You dont want more debt do you? If they caught up with you in Spain you could just file for personal bankruptcy (after all thats what many companies do before they set themselves up again) and it would all be written off anyway. Ignore the doom and gloom merchants 'my friend' tried a reasonable approach with these financial institutions and they ignored it despite them having made a killing in interest payments from him over the years.They sold the debt to debt collection agencies that are small tinpot companies who wouldnt know how to get to the airport let alone come after you in Thailand anyway why would they when they have the path of least resistance open to them in the UK and they can go for locals who owe money.

Consider yourself now free from this burden, learn from it(as my friend has) and enjoy yourself in the los.And dont borrow money again, my friend hasnt!

[CWMcMurray]

I agree with the Britmaveric and think you should pay off your debt.... but if you decide not to, I would advise at least declaring Bankruptcy and tie up all of the loose ends. this will at least ensure you dont burn any bridges in a major way.

You may be on a credit black list for a period of time (7 yrs in the US), but you would then still have the option to return back to the EU at a later date.

If the EU banks are not sharing information now, they will be shortly... I am sure there are a lot of folks having similar ideas as the OP and the Banks will surely start.

Edited January 22, 2010 by CWMcMurray

[jonclark]

Pay off your debts, it's the honest thing to do and you don't want to burn your own bridges. You never know when you may need them again. I'd be interested to see a foreign debt collector turn up in thailand and start demanding payment - On what legal authority, fairly sure there is no inter government policy on such matters. Can see the police wanting to get involved in that, far too much work

[keestha]

Quoting the OP: "come over to Thailand, take a Thai course and then a TEFL and then get a job teaching English to switch over to a Work Visa."

Might be less easy than you think. They are not much interested in hiring people as English teachers who are not native speakers. I notice that your written English is perfect, but still they would rather hire a 19 year old British or American kid than hiring you. The only jobs you could maybe get would be very lowly paid, and it might be not so easy to get a work permit.

Why don't you browse around a bit in the teachers forum, or maybe ask a question there?

Edited January 22, 2010 by keestha

[flemmie]

Try negotiaiting with them first- tell them you have moved to another part of the world and that you are willing to make small payments to a reduced level of overall debt (worked for a friend of mine). If you default, the standard procedure is they will sell the debt to a private debt collecting agency (for 20 p in the pound for example), the agency may then try to track you down if your debt was high enough (and they wont be too friendly either). But ifs its less than 5-10 K $/pounds they probably wouldn't bother. But if they find out you are in Thailand it may be they would come over here to combine it with a nice holiday in the sun (seriously). My friend who i mentioned earlier had moved to work in Pakistan for a contract, not very tempting destination for a debt collector.

Having said that you would never be able to open a bank account in spain again and possibly elsewhere in europe (im not sure how interconnected the backs are in the EU, but i wouldnt be surprised if they do swap info like this).

Pay off your debts, it's the honest thing to do and you don't want to burn your own bridges. You never know when you may need them again. I'd be interested to see a foreign debt collector turn up in thailand and start demanding payment - On what legal authority, fairly sure there is no inter government policy on such matters. Can see the police wanting to get involved in that, far too much work

I can only agree with the above (and I am a banker).

You could leave Spain and leave the debt behind (actually how much are we talking about...??), but in essence you borrowed it for a purpose, accepting interest terms which are now bothering you. You need to step up to the plate and take responsibility.

A good idea is indeed to be open and fair with the bank and to re-negotiate the terms and/or the repayment period. Banks would rather have a healthy credit on their books than a dud loan which they need to write-off.

Selling to a collector is an option for them, but they usually do that in a package deal (i.e. bundle a few hundred or even thousand consumer credits and sell it to a distressed asset buyer for a small sum, like cents to the dollar). If your debt is considerable, then a collection agency will com after you, if it is small, it will get lost.

In any case, your credit standing in Spain will be ruined and it may eventually have consequences in Europe, although I sincerely doubt that, banks do not exchange this sort of information cross border.

So the option is yours.

Edited January 22, 2010 by flemmie

[hawthorne]

Thailand will ask you if you have ever declared bankruptcy I can not remember on which visa application I saw it but on one. I think it was some sort of resident visa.

You created the debt you need to pay it off. Be responisble for once. It sounds as if you like to run away from your problems.

Thailand is not the place to run away from financial problems. For your own sake, stay in Spain and make it work. If you hit a rough patch, worse rough patch, you have a much better social network than you will find inThailand. Do not come to Thailand thinking you will be ok.

Why don't you talk to English teachers here and find out how good they have it here?

I have found several that could not even afford to leave Thailand. Most people come here with money not without.

Being a laborer in Spain may give you a better life than moving to Thailand without a skill.

Take this serious because once you arrive and have no other place to go the walls close quickly.

Best of luck

[themana]

General rule : Often telling the truth will help. Speak to your bank, tell them you will come here, and ask them what solution do they propose for you , assuming you are willing to reimburse your debt.

Maybe the key is to know IF you want to pay it , but are just scare the bank will simply take everything from you; or if you are simply looking for quick exit.

In the first case, mostly as long as you pay, banks will not mind if you are in Tahiland, Malaga or New Granada. It might be some technical problems (such make sure money is send by your thai bank every month) , so a talk with your spanish bank will be usefull. I speak from experience , having similar situation in early 2002. Things went smooth (but one month).

If you want to just have quick exit, assuming we are spoken about a small amount, things will be safe here as long as you keep a low profile. But it will also mean you will have problem to renew your passport, you will have problem if you return to Spain (or E.U. in general). If the amoutn is small, it will not be a crime, but delictuous act and not worth international warrant. Still it will be worth to detain you if you come back in Europe, or to refuse to issue a new passport (you will get only a temporary pass valid for an exit indirection of Spain).

Friendly advice, speak to your bank, tell you want to continue to pay off your debt, but you have to move for professional reason (you got an interview for a job in Thailand ...) and ask them for the modus operanti. Do not forget to stress out Thailand is a 3rd world country, with low wages, so a sensible renegociation of the montly payment is necessary (better to have a little than nothing). Do Not Run Away as it would jeopardise your future.

Problem is that talking to the bank and letting them see that my situation is precarious would most likely affect the money that I'm counting on in order to be able to make my trip and set up in Thailand. Believe me, these banks are far less lenient than you'd assume. At any rate, I'm willing to pay if I don't have any other choice, but having a choice of making things better for myself, why should I stay burdened for years when I can have a new start? Also, passport renewal is not affected by financial status, as being in debt is not a crime in Spain, criminal background or action being the only thing that can interfere with such a renewal.

[themana]

Try negotiaiting with them first- tell them you have moved to another part of the world and that you are willing to make small payments to a reduced level of overall debt (worked for a friend of mine). If you default, the standard procedure is they will sell the debt to a private debt collecting agency (for 20 p in the pound for example), the agency may then try to track you down if your debt was high enough (and they wont be too friendly either). But ifs its less than 5-10 K $/pounds they probably wouldn't bother. But if they find out you are in Thailand it may be they would come over here to combine it with a nice holiday in the sun (seriously). My friend who i mentioned earlier had moved to work in Pakistan for a contract, not very tempting destination for a debt collector.

Having said that you would never be able to open a bank account in spain again and possibly elsewhere in europe (im not sure how interconnected the backs are in the EU, but i wouldnt be surprised if they do swap info like this).

They wont touch you while you are in Thailand otherwise 'my friend' would have been got to a long time ago. He hadnt done anything illegal but just got into financial problems.You wont have any credit facilities in Spain but so what?You dont want more debt do you? If they caught up with you in Spain you could just file for personal bankruptcy (after all thats what many companies do before they set themselves up again) and it would all be written off anyway. Ignore the doom and gloom merchants 'my friend' tried a reasonable approach with these financial institutions and they ignored it despite them having made a killing in interest payments from him over the years.They sold the debt to debt collection agencies that are small tinpot companies who wouldnt know how to get to the airport let alone come after you in Thailand anyway why would they when they have the path of least resistance open to them in the UK and they can go for locals who owe money.

Consider yourself now free from this burden, learn from it(as my friend has) and enjoy yourself in the los.And dont borrow money again, my friend hasnt!

I've been to several financial forums in Spain and indeed it would seem to be the case that its quite easy to escape the debt. Honestly, anybody who's been in Spain for enough time knows how things work here and how <deleted> lazy and bureaucratic all processes are. I highly doubt these folks would consider my debt worth the effort for its amount, and first of all, they have to -find- me first. I have a bit of a concern about it affecting me in other European countries, but again, as you said, it depends on how these financial institutions swap information, and I doubt they will. If not, there is always offshore banking. I don't want to borrow again, I just want to be free. I mean, hel_l I was pretty dam_n responsible with the money I came into possession of, as well as the credits, however, the burden of supporting my family (I am the eldest son, had to support my father for half a year while he found work, and he still owes me money. My mom can't get a job at all. They are planning to return to our home country next year) did take its toll along with a few choice bad decisions. I will admit I messed up, but I will have an easier time of correcting this mistake if I can start earning money and moving my personal life ahead -without- the encumbrance of debt. Not to mention I -will- return and pay off that debt, I just cannot do it any time soon and I am not willing to let banks keep a ball and chain on me.

[themana]

Try negotiaiting with them first- tell them you have moved to another part of the world and that you are willing to make small payments to a reduced level of overall debt (worked for a friend of mine). If you default, the standard procedure is they will sell the debt to a private debt collecting agency (for 20 p in the pound for example), the agency may then try to track you down if your debt was high enough (and they wont be too friendly either). But ifs its less than 5-10 K $/pounds they probably wouldn't bother. But if they find out you are in Thailand it may be they would come over here to combine it with a nice holiday in the sun (seriously). My friend who i mentioned earlier had moved to work in Pakistan for a contract, not very tempting destination for a debt collector.

Having said that you would never be able to open a bank account in spain again and possibly elsewhere in europe (im not sure how interconnected the backs are in the EU, but i wouldnt be surprised if they do swap info like this).

Pay off your debts, it's the honest thing to do and you don't want to burn your own bridges. You never know when you may need them again. I'd be interested to see a foreign debt collector turn up in thailand and start demanding payment - On what legal authority, fairly sure there is no inter government policy on such matters. Can see the police wanting to get involved in that, far too much work

I can only agree with the above (and I am a banker).

You could leave Spain and leave the debt behind (actually how much are we talking about...??), but in essence you borrowed it for a purpose, accepting interest terms which are now bothering you. You need to step up to the plate and take responsibility.

A good idea is indeed to be open and fair with the bank and to re-negotiate the terms and/or the repayment period. Banks would rather have a healthy credit on their books than a dud loan which they need to write-off.

Selling to a collector is an option for them, but they usually do that in a package deal (i.e. bundle a few hundred or even thousand consumer credits and sell it to a distressed asset buyer for a small sum, like cents to the dollar). If your debt is considerable, then a collection agency will com after you, if it is small, it will get lost.

In any case, your credit standing in Spain will be ruined and it may eventually have consequences in Europe, although I sincerely doubt that, banks do not exchange this sort of information cross border.

So the option is yours.

Debt would probably amount to €24,000 if I go through with the plan... stands at around €12,000 as it is right now. It takes up around 60% of my total income each month. =/ I have no intention of returning to Spain, I dislike the country and its culture, and considering I'm a EU Citizen, I can have my pick of any other country in the EU, not to mention I have friends in several of them. If the bank information isn't shared cross border, I can simply move my money without leaving an electronic trace using friends or family and start over elsewhere. Not to mention banks have bigger fish to fry. At any rate, the debt will be written off after 7 years, and I doubt I'd be returning to Spain any time before that period. I have plenty of better places to hit. If the option is mine, I'd definitely go for the one where I can return to studying and improving my life VS slaving after a debt that I did not create 2/3's of. (The expenses came from looking after my family... which happens to owe me money. So all those people in other posts telling me to take responsibility can just zip it. I've shouldered far more than my share of responsibility for long enough, and its high time I started having my own life and going after my own dreams.)

[themana]

Quoting the OP: "come over to Thailand, take a Thai course and then a TEFL and then get a job teaching English to switch over to a Work Visa."

Might be less easy than you think. They are not much interested in hiring people as English teachers who are not native speakers. I notice that your written English is perfect, but still they would rather hire a 19 year old British or American kid than hiring you. The only jobs you could maybe get would be very lowly paid, and it might be not so easy to get a work permit.

Why don't you browse around a bit in the teachers forum, or maybe ask a question there?

I am a native speaker. ^^ I see you assume that because I live in Spain, that that is where my origins are from. I have Spanish citizenship from my mother's side, but I was raised in a Central American country with heavy American influence, and have been to the US and Canada several times. My spoken English is indistinguishable from that of a North American person.

[p_brownstone]

Debt would probably amount to €24,000 if I go through with the plan... stands at around €12,000 as it is right now.

If I understand you correctly, you presently owe Euros 12,000 but intend to draw down more of whatever facility the Bank has given you, then abscond owing a total of Euros 24,000 .

There are 2 words for this – Theft .............. and Fraud

If the option is mine, I'd definitely go for the one where I can return to studying and improving my life VS slaving after a debt that I did not create 2/3's of. (The expenses came from looking after my family... which happens to owe me money. So all those people in other posts telling me to take responsibility can just zip it. I've shouldered far more than my share of responsibility for long enough, and its high time I started having my own life and going after my own dreams.)

Poor Diddums.

Grow up.

You DID create the Debt. No one forced you to ‘look after your family’, especially with money that was not yours to offer.

As for 'going after your own dreams’ an ‘English Teacher’ being paid a pittance in Bangkok in your 20’s may be a ‘dream’ but I imagine it would be totally different, quite possibly a nightmare, at age 40+ .

And - a final word, as a thief and fraudster I would not want you teaching anyone I am close to.

Patrick

[ThailandTommy]

If it for less than the equivalent of 5k sterling, they will after 6 years write it off! As you say the Spanish are a lazy bunch it is all mañana, I lived there for 5 years and know of quite a few people who lost out on property sales in the recession and took loans to re coup some of the loss, and went abroad.

Don't necessary agree with this practice but if the bank is stupid enough to loan it............

[Chaimai]

Your irresponsibility appears to know no bounds. Plus, a very interesting slant on 'justice' whereby the debt somehow appears to be pinned on the 'family'

As previously stated - GROW UP.

In most bank/borrower situations a loan is requested/offered and willingly taken/granted by both parties. The FUNDAMENTAL expectation is that this will be repaid under the terms that both parties signed up to.

Having no intention to repay from the outset is indeed fraud. Not wishing to repaying after the contract has been taken out is tough sh!t !!

[jdinasia]

The OP IS discussing defrauding banks .... and then thinks he'll be making a 'fresh start' in Thailand as a TEFL teacher?