Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[animatic]

man you speak like a UDD leaflet,

Well some have asserted we have some professional propagandists posting here. Why they would bother trying to influence foreigner's opinions is anyone's guess.

A second on this second. yes sounds like UDD boilerplate speak.

Just slightly more eruditely edited than typical.

ie more a PR professionals version.

Still nothing more than party line for the coming war games.

This is not PAD vs Reds, But Thaksin misusing Reds desires for his own ends.

But trying to bring along anti-Yellow support from the airport take over

is part of their PR campaign.

Propaganda 101 is in Room 223B down the hall,

and take a very hard turn LEFT.

[SabaiBKK]

man you speak like a UDD leaflet,

Well some have asserted we have some professional propagandists posting here. Why they would bother trying to influence foreigner's opinions is anyone's guess.

A second on this second. yes sounds like UDD boilerplate speak.

Just slightly more eruditely edited than typical.

ie more a PR professionals version.

Still nothing more than party line for the coming war games.

This is not PAD vs Reds, But Thaksin misusing Reds desires for his own ends.

But trying to bring along anti-Yellow support from the airport take over

is part of their PR campaign.

Propaganda 101 is in Room 223B down the hall,

and take a very hard turn LEFT.

spot on , but helas , most people don't understand this

[animatic]

Have recently been wondering what has happened to all this, personally after seeing all that violence on tv sometime back has been a big contributor to what has now kept me away from Thailand. Something that deep does not go away where half the nation wear red shirts the other yellow, makings of a civil war if i have ever seen one. Would not like to be caught out there when it really kicks off!

The impression that half the country is against the other half is part of the general PR campaign.

The yellows and the Reds are rather small groups EACH taking credit for numbers way beyond their reaches.

And so after foreign editors get their hands on the text it reduces to a even simpler equation.

I live here and it's nothing as bad as some make it out to be from abroad

It's much bigger too, a rally in one part can't even be heard in another.

Except when the pundits earn their bread stoking things to talk more about.

[Me&MrsJones]

Who cares? Bored of it all! Surprised all this makes the news to be honest!

[rayw]

man you speak like a UDD leaflet,

Well some have asserted we have some professional propagandists posting here. Why they would bother trying to influence foreigner's opinions is anyone's guess.

A second on this second. yes sounds like UDD boilerplate speak.

Just slightly more eruditely edited than typical.

ie more a PR professionals version.

Still nothing more than party line for the coming war games.

This is not PAD vs Reds, But Thaksin misusing Reds desires for his own ends.

But trying to bring along anti-Yellow support from the airport take over

is part of their PR campaign.

Propaganda 101 is in Room 223B down the hall,

and take a very hard turn LEFT.

spot on , but helas , most people don't understand this

Why LEFT surely there is more clap trap and propaganda and dictatorships if you turn hard RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!! Just shows it pays to walk straight on down the centre path where you get where you want to go more directly and thus much quicker and easier.

Edited January 23, 2010 by rayw

[HowardV]

While I agree with practically everything you say here, I don't think this particular guy or his threats are much help to 'the cause'. How many of those soldier boys come from Yellow Shirt families (where their naes even in the lottery bin?). The red shirts (hate that name too) really need to rally behind a decent leader, not a wanted ex-PM who no one seriously belives is in it for Thailand, and not some self appointed warlord either. There must be someone in their camp thay can be brought to the fore wiothout the baggage of corruption that can make it a real force to be reckonedwith (and I mean political not militarial).

Agreed, 100%. I think Thaksin was the best and worst person the pro-democracy movement could have had, because he knows all the democracy rhetoric, I mean really knows it. If you've ever heard him speak about democracy and people power, he really gets it in theory, but he practices just the opposite when it comes to his own perpetuation and greed. He has undermined their movement yet he still stands as an example of someone who rose to power outside of that old archaic system.

[jdinasia]

While I agree with practically everything you say here, I don't think this particular guy or his threats are much help to 'the cause'. How many of those soldier boys come from Yellow Shirt families (where their naes even in the lottery bin?). The red shirts (hate that name too) really need to rally behind a decent leader, not a wanted ex-PM who no one seriously belives is in it for Thailand, and not some self appointed warlord either. There must be someone in their camp thay can be brought to the fore wiothout the baggage of corruption that can make it a real force to be reckonedwith (and I mean political not militarial).

Agreed, 100%. I think Thaksin was the best and worst person the pro-democracy movement could have had, because he knows all the democracy rhetoric, I mean really knows it. If you've ever heard him speak about democracy and people power, he really gets it in theory, but he practices just the opposite when it comes to his own perpetuation and greed. He has undermined their movement yet he still stands as an example of someone who rose to power outside of that old archaic system.

Thaksin rose to power totally INSIDE 'that old archaic system', to prove the point one only has to look at the names of his supporters from each of the regions. He bought the loyalty of all the old power structures in the areas he did well in. (some of them those same people that turned on the reds and supported the current government)

His power structure throughout the N and NE of Thailand was the existing structures with a shiny new label and that is all. His help for the masses was anything but, sticking them with even more debt and no chance for relief from it unless they kept electing him so he could keep them digging deeper and deeper into debt.

[HowardV]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too .... don't you wish the Germans overthrew him when it was still possible ?

so is this an anti-democracy argument? Are you saying that because Hitler existed that democracy is a failure? There should be due process, to preserve the integrity of the system, is my point.

[SirMarjAlot]

Have recently been wondering what has happened to all this, personally after seeing all that violence on tv sometime back has been a big contributor to what has now kept me away from Thailand. Something that deep does not go away where half the nation wear red shirts the other yellow, makings of a civil war if i have ever seen one. Would not like to be caught out there when it really kicks off!

The impression that half the country is against the other half is part of the general PR campaign.

The yellows and the Reds are rather small groups EACH taking credit for numbers way beyond their reaches.

And so after foreign editors get their hands on the text it reduces to a even simpler equation.

I live here and it's nothing as bad as some make it out to be from abroad

It's much bigger too, a rally in one part can't even be heard in another.

Except when the pundits earn their bread stoking things to talk more about.

Well last time I was in BKK, neally two years ago now, I not see any red shirts but 1000's people walking around in yellow shirts.

I appreciate there are probably alot - the majority who are center(better things to think about in there life),

but it only takes a minority to ruin it for everyone.

Its a shame that in this age, it does not take much of a disagreement for people wherever they are from or whatever side of the fence they sit to then turn to unconstrained violence.

[jdinasia]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too .... don't you wish the Germans overthrew him when it was still possible ?

so is this an anti-democracy argument? Are you saying that because Hitler existed that democracy is a failure? There should be due process, to preserve the integrity of the system, is my point.

And when that 'due process' results in a guilty verdict but the man in question flees the country and tries to manipulate the system instead of serving his time, what then?

[Ricochet]

Actually the overthrow of the violent and corrupt dictator Thaksin was welcomed, judging by the immediate reaction of the population.

There is no treason in a non-violent coup which overthrows a corrupt dictatorship, unless of course the corrupt dictator wins.

Many would dispute your claim the coup was welcomed by most Thais, but in any case it's completely irrelevant whether it was welcomed or not.

Your second assertion is even more absurd.Again whether the coup was violent or not is irrelevant (although the threat of violence is always implicit).The question is whether the government overthrown by the junta was constitutionally legitimate or not, not whether it was led by a "corrupt dictator" in your usage or the nation's saviour as many others would have it.As a matter of fact in an assessment of Thaksin, I lean more towards your description but again that's completely irrelevant.

The fact that these criminals in a panicky and cowardly way procured post facto pardons for themselves demonstrates that they at least knew very clearly they had committed treason.

Good one Jay ! Most seem to ignore the fact that under the thin layer of unity ,MORE than half of the 'boys in green' have 'scarlet' sympathies - making this fellow seem a lot more than a 'loose cannon'.

[rayw]

just some facts for the pro Thaksin guys:

Thaksin forced the central bank of thailand to lend Billions of baht to burma ( when everyone was against) so Burma could buy telecoms equipments from shin corp , of course everyone know that Burma could never repay the loan ..... this is a clever way of siphoning the state's coffers into one's pocket.

Thaksin evaded taxes by saying the ferarri and benz not declared belonged to his maid and gardener

Thaksin declared phiphi island a non construction zone after the tsunami and then bought all the land for a handful of rice .... then reversed the ruling to develop the island again

thaksin inflamed the south in order for the price of land there to drop and buy thousands of raïs ( him , proxies and cronies )

thaksin bought 80% of the land in koh chang then said that koh chang was out of bounds for backpackers

thaksin lent millions of baht from the state coffers to his sons animation company to make an animation film

thaksin permitted to the farmers to put their land deed in the bank for money , knowing they would not be able to repay , then their land gets grabbed by thaksin's banking cronnies.... of course the money was used to buy telephone cards from thaksin ....

ohh and the 30 baht health scheme .... well rich idea , but there is no funds for doctors and drugs go with a broken arm and your 30 baht card to a state hospital and all you will get after a 5 hours wait is a couple of paracetamol pills and if you are lucky some amoxicylin

and this is just a taste of things Thaksin did for Thailand not even speaking about human rights violations and intimidation of right activists....

Well listed that and they are facts for anyone to check so if you still support the Thaksin crook then suggest you check all this out.

And whoever said those against Thaksin are Right wingers well think again as I am certainly clearly on the left of centre and hate rightr wing and elitism. But Thaksin is a right wing elitist that is of no doubt and never has been. Thailand needs a moderate caring socialist party of the people and I mean ordinary Thai people so they should start thinking about forming such a peaceful political party now. Until then we have a legally formed Government (other than the last elections were the result of vote buying and rigging in many many areas) trying to do a fair and good job in difficult circumstances. As someone rightly pointed out Abhist is PM perfectly legally and constitutionally, same as Gordon Brown in England as both countries are NOT presidencies. So bugger Thaksin's billions of Baht that is his problem and his own crooked fault so let teh Thai people now all ignore the prat and let them just knuckle down and work towards fair and peaceful elections without childish my dad is bigger than your dad fighting and bloodshed being needed. Jeez when will many folk just grow up ???

[TAWP]

I for one welcome our new Overlord.

[norteler83]

Off to Guantanamo! (Ooops, wrong country.)

lol thanks

[HowardV]

Well then by what authority was he removed from power?

Hammered, I've got to hand it to you, you make a concerted effort at rendering good points moot with obfuscation of the plain truth. You almost had me there for a minute. I think you'd make for a great conversationalist on this, you might get me rethinking my points.

But no ... your argument is the exception, not the rule.

White and dark is an AGE-OLD battle, to throw up subterfuge about mixed colors in the yellow shirts does not make the fact any less plain. Skin color is a strong demarcation of upper and lower classes in this country. Sure, of course you have dark-skinned folks from Issan fighting on the side of the yellow shirts, but the point I am making is that the real issue is a class war: white collar vs. blue collar, educated vs. uneducated, rich vs. poor, "worthy" vs. "unworthy," "hi-so" vs. "lo-so."

[jdinasia]

I for one welcome our new Overlord.

Seh Daeng will make it easier to crack down on the reds after their last violence in BKK.

[TAWP]

Well then by what authority was he removed from power?

Hammered, I've got to hand it to you, you make a concerted effort at rendering good points moot with obfuscation of the plain truth. You almost had me there for a minute. I think you'd make for a great conversationalist on this, you might get me rethinking my points.

But no ... your argument is the exception, not the rule.

White and dark is an AGE-OLD battle, to throw up subterfuge about mixed colors in the yellow shirts does not make the fact any less plain. Skin color is a strong demarcation of upper and lower classes in this country. Sure, of course you have dark-skinned folks from Issan fighting on the side of the yellow shirts, but the point I am making is that the real issue is a class war: white collar vs. blue collar, educated vs. uneducated, rich vs. poor, "worthy" vs. "unworthy," "hi-so" vs. "lo-so."

So you are saying that Thaksin is dark-skinned?

[jdinasia]

Well then by what authority was he removed from power?

Hammered, I've got to hand it to you, you make a concerted effort at rendering good points moot with obfuscation of the plain truth. You almost had me there for a minute. I think you'd make for a great conversationalist on this, you might get me rethinking my points.

But no ... your argument is the exception, not the rule.

White and dark is an AGE-OLD battle, to throw up subterfuge about mixed colors in the yellow shirts does not make the fact any less plain. Skin color is a strong demarcation of upper and lower classes in this country. Sure, of course you have dark-skinned folks from Issan fighting on the side of the yellow shirts, but the point I am making is that the real issue is a class war: white collar vs. blue collar, educated vs. uneducated, rich vs. poor, "worthy" vs. "unworthy," "hi-so" vs. "lo-so."

Yes that thoroughly explains why Thaksin (formerly one of the wealthiest men in Thailand) and his major supporters (also amongst the VERY rich) are on one side and the South (yeah .. those people down south with all that dark skin) are on the other?

This may be about Thaksin attempting to manipulate his electorate but by no means is it about anything but the elite vs the elite.

[Arkady]

I can't understand how this head banger ever got promoted beyond lance corporal and why the army is taking so long to court martial him.

His daughter is a committed PAD supporter who often joined the yellow shirts at Government House. Khattiya told reporters at the time that, if she was killed by his red shirt guards, he could just accept it as a casualty of war.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Arkady

[ChiangMaiFun]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

Absolutely spot on!!!

[SomTumTiger]

The question that is only relevant is - what is best for Thailand? Does anyone think that the UDD and PTP have Thailand's best interests in mind? Does anyone think the UDD and PTP have anyone's interested in mind, besides one man?

[katasyd]

Anytime i read these threads about red/yellow and the claims of democracy i just look at this pic and realize it's all about money.

This coup leader gave him the telecoms empire thanks to his wife's connected family.

Money and the power.

[HowardV]

And when that 'due process' results in a guilty verdict but the man in question flees the country and tries to manipulate the system instead of serving his time, what then?

It didn't happen that way. That 'due process' never happened. The man in question didn't flee the country. Thaksin left for a UN meeting and the military staged a coup. Thaksin never returned, so it was impossible for him to flee after a guilty verdict was reached through due process, because the verdict was reached after the coup and after he never came back. There was no due process. You made some points earlier that were off-base, too. I thought it was hammered, but it was you. I think you're smart but hanging around with too many yellow-shirt supporters and not being honest to what actually happened because you don't like Thaksin and so your emotions about Thaksin are influencing your ability to remember the events as they actually happened. You were the one with the obfuscation and subterfuge, but I doubt it is deliberate now.

I want to be very clear that I am not pro-Thaksin. I am pro-democracy, and those are two very very different things. I think if we could all realize that, and I mean both foreigners living here and Thais, that we could begin to listen to the argument for democracy. In my very first post, before I said anything but that I support the red shirts' cause, I noted that the biggest problem the red shirts have is their choice of Thaksin for a figurehead. I think he undermines their entire effort. But whether you like Thaksin or not, you must be honest with the facts.

[PawyiLee]

If that was true then I would bet that the Thai army wins with Red-shirt fighters. Also this man is not helping the case of Khun Thaksin. This can only make a lot of people angry. I would not like to see what would happen to the tourism industry and the stock market if there was a domestic war.

Let's pray for peace

Praying won't do any good.

It sure didn't do any good when that flag you're sporting got trampled.

[HowardV]

So you are saying that Thaksin is dark-skinned?

Not at all! This is NOT about Thaksin and the monarchy, this is about democracy and the old archaic system of patron-client relationships. It is about one group of people wanting to preserve a way of life for themselves at the expense of the rest of the country. It is the age-old class war.

[SabaiBKK]

And when that 'due process' results in a guilty verdict but the man in question flees the country and tries to manipulate the system instead of serving his time, what then?

It didn't happen that way. That 'due process' never happened. The man in question didn't flee the country. Thaksin left for a UN meeting and the military staged a coup. Thaksin never returned, so it was impossible for him to flee after a guilty verdict was reached through due process, because the verdict was reached after the coup and after he never came back. There was no due process. You made some points earlier that were off-base, too. I thought it was hammered, but it was you. I think you're smart but hanging around with too many yellow-shirt supporters and not being honest to what actually happened because you don't like Thaksin and so your emotions about Thaksin are influencing your ability to remember the events as they actually happened. You were the one with the obfuscation and subterfuge, but I doubt it is deliberate now.

I want to be very clear that I am not pro-Thaksin. I am pro-democracy, and those are two very very different things. I think if we could all realize that, and I mean both foreigners living here and Thais, that we could begin to listen to the argument for democracy. In my very first post, before I said anything but that I support the red shirts' cause, I noted that the biggest problem the red shirts have is their choice of Thaksin for a figurehead. I think he undermines their entire effort. But whether you like Thaksin or not, you must be honest with the facts.

I am pro democracy too , but i have my eyes open and can look beyond my nose ... i'm totally anti UDD totally anti PAD and more than totally anti thaksin .... but i think that Abhisit should be given a chance to prove himself until the next general elections ... even thought most of his ministers are old school political gangsters, Abhisit himself is still honest and working for the country .... he just needs to clean up his cabinet and bring in new blood ....... the old dinosaurs belong to a nut house

[TAWP]

And when that 'due process' results in a guilty verdict but the man in question flees the country and tries to manipulate the system instead of serving his time, what then?

It didn't happen that way. That 'due process' never happened. The man in question didn't flee the country. Thaksin left for a UN meeting and the military staged a coup. Thaksin never returned, so it was impossible for him to flee after a guilty verdict was reached through due process, because the verdict was reached after the coup and after he never came back. There was no due process.

This is your firm grasp of facts and truth? Are you joking with us?

Ps. Look up who was in the country all the time and took a small runner after the Olympics opening in 2008... Ds.

[TAWP]

So you are saying that Thaksin is dark-skinned?

Not at all! This is NOT about Thaksin and the monarchy, this is about democracy and the old archaic system of patron-client relationships. It is about one group of people wanting to preserve a way of life for themselves at the expense of the rest of the country. It is the age-old class war.

No, it is not a class-war, Comrade.

It is a war between two camps of business-men. Where allegiance can be bought.

[Junglejumbo]

DAAD are of course just a faction of the redshirts with the main group being the UDD. DAAD used to be almost entirely from Udon if not still are and had a house at Samat Prakan which they used briefly for training with Sae Daeng and another leader who ran a communitry radio station. There numbers were small ranging with less than 100 members at that time and the incident that I remember is when about 30 of them threatened with knifes and threw stones at the PAD when they were at government house.

Anyhow nobody else has mentioned it but just to remind people that DAAD are not the mainstream red shirt goup.

Sae Daeng was also asked by Thaksin not to refrain from causing trouble in the April 2009 Sonkran riots, and there was speculation in some papers that they may have fallen out but Sae Daeng denied it.

[jdinasia]

And when that 'due process' results in a guilty verdict but the man in question flees the country and tries to manipulate the system instead of serving his time, what then?

It didn't happen that way. That 'due process' never happened. The man in question didn't flee the country. Thaksin left for a UN meeting and the military staged a coup. Thaksin never returned, so it was impossible for him to flee after a guilty verdict was reached through due process, because the verdict was reached after the coup and after he never came back. There was no due process. You made some points earlier that were off-base, too. I thought it was hammered, but it was you. I think you're smart but hanging around with too many yellow-shirt supporters and not being honest to what actually happened because you don't like Thaksin and so your emotions about Thaksin are influencing your ability to remember the events as they actually happened. You were the one with the obfuscation and subterfuge, but I doubt it is deliberate now.

I want to be very clear that I am not pro-Thaksin. I am pro-democracy, and those are two very very different things. I think if we could all realize that, and I mean both foreigners living here and Thais, that we could begin to listen to the argument for democracy. In my very first post, before I said anything but that I support the red shirts' cause, I noted that the biggest problem the red shirts have is their choice of Thaksin for a figurehead. I think he undermines their entire effort. But whether you like Thaksin or not, you must be honest with the facts.

Nice --- not factual and only obfuscating the points I brought up .. but nice!

Point --- Thaksin was convicted by a court he said he trusted

Point --- Thaksin had answered those charges in person

Point ---Thaksin was in the country to answer those charges and that he did so AFTER the coup.

Thaksin returns to Thailand

Thursday, 28 February 2008 15:55 Ousted Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra has flown home to a welcome from thousands of supporters, kissing the ground as he ended nearly 18 months of self-imposed exile.

Immediately after landing in Bangkok, he was driven under police escort to court to face corruption charges filed by the military regime that deposed him in a September 2006 coup.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/thailand.html?rss

Point --- I don't 'hang around' with yellows

Point --- You don't know what you are talking about and your "he never returned" statement proves it.

But good show --- the only fact you stated in that post was wrong