Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[otherstuff1957]

A lot of people talk about the Reds and Yellows as though they were monolithic blocks. As though they all believed the same things and had the same goals. As far as I can tell, the Reds include 1 rural poor who appreciate the fact that Thaksin did actually do a lot to help them and paid attention to their needs, 2 intellectual social reformers (the Red Siam Group) who are opposed to the traditional political/economic power structure in Thailand, 3 Thai-Chinese businessmen who admire Thaksin and want to be just like him and 4 policemen, village pooyais, and other leaders who are in it for the money and are longing for the return of Thaksin so that they can have a place at the feeding trough again.

Unfortunately, most of the Red leaders seem to be in the last group!

The Yellows are equally diverse. A large number of them were people who objected to Thaksin's authoritarian behavior and his institutionalization of the usual Thai corruption. Most of this group are middle class taxpayers who were outraged by his manipulation of the law to avoid paying taxes himself. Another yellow group are the conservative nationalists who want to preserve the status quo and who think that the Reds are anti-monarchists. And a few are real right wingers who feel threatened by Thaksins populist policies and fear the rise of the rural poor. (remember that the rural poor took over Laos and Cambodia within living memory and consider the consequences).

Edited January 24, 2010 by otherstuff1957

[geriatrickid]

As for what frightens the elite, Thaksin is himself about as elite as you can possibly get.

He's nouvean riche, he isn't elite. He's the country boy bought his way to the top table, but doesn't know which knife or fork to eat with. He was a policeman for god sake and his dad sold silk and had a Merc francise. How low can you go in the pecking order of this country.

Massive massive difference.

So, if I understand you correctly, people that have derived their money from previous generations' exploitation a quasi feudal system and an indentured workforce to amass their wealth are more elite than those that attained their wealth by modern mercantile and commercial means? Technically, your definition would mean that a great many of the world's elite would not be elite" People like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the multi billionaire oil sheihks are called elite. However, they too like Mr. Thaksin amassed their wealth in a similar fashion. I think you just took the air out of Mrs. Thatcher's bouffant hairdo.

The word elite gets tossed around alot in here. I like to call them the super wealthy and their entourage.

Know what the great equalizer in life is? Living in a western city and having a dog. Everyone is the same when he or she has to stoop and scoop.

Edited January 24, 2010 by geriatrickid

[rixalex]

He's the country boy bought his way to the top table, but doesn't know which knife or fork to eat with.

Country boy? Like born in a barn and raised on the farm? Don't think so.

He was a policeman for god sake

Like a policeman who rides a Tiger and directs traffic? Didn't think so.

and his dad sold silk and had a Merc francise. How low can you go in the pecking order of this country.

A h*ll of a lot lower than that.

Massive massive difference.

A difference yes. Massive no. Money trumps all here and Thaksin was just about the richest man in the land.

[jbhh]

Go ahead, make my day!

[Insight]

I don. ’t know how many on this forum happened to see the Rageh Omaar documentary “ Thailand: Warring Colours “ shown on Al jazeera two or three weeks ago ? This is more balanced analysis of the situation than you will ever get from locally based media.

Said before on another forum, but this documentary doesn't have a single mention of the PAD protests, featuring some huge numbers, that lead to the coup. Instead our Raggie insinuates it was the "elite" that decided to have the coup because they didn't like Thaksin.

Bullshit, and an insult to the many thousands of people that protested Thaksins abuse of the system when selling AIS to Temasek. It's been reported many times here and elsewhere Thaksin was going to send his mob into Bangkok and the coup occurred to prevent this from happening.

Why not try asking an ordinary civilian about their take on vote buying, rather than a red shirt leader, Raggie? <deleted>...

[rixalex]

So, if I understand you correctly, people that have derived their money from previous generations' exploitation a quasi feudal system and an indentured workforce to amass their wealth are more elite than those that attained their wealth by modern mercantile and commercial means? Technically, your definition would mean that a great many of the world's elite would not be elite" People like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the multi billionaire oil sheihks are called elite. However, they too like Mr. Thaksin amassed their wealth in a similar fashion. I think you just took the air out of Mrs. Thatcher's bouffant hairdo.

The word elite gets tossed around alot in here. I like to call them the super wealthy and their entourage.

Know what the great equalizer in life is? Living in a western city and having a dog. Everyone is the same when he or she has to stoop and scoop.

Completely agree, especially concerning the free and easy way in which people toss around the "elite" term.

[yoshiwara]

The left-leaning apologists for Thaksin are now saying (see above ad nauseum) that the military attack is not in the interests of the Red Shirt movement as they rapidly try to make as much distance between themselves and Thaksin's rambo. You can see them edging towards the door muttering 'they're all the same' and hoping this nightmare will go away soon. What they refuse to concede is that this type of violent behaviour is an inheherent part of the Red Shirt agenda. They can hide behind a democratic banner all they want but this game is about Thaksin. The front-end supporters are either those selling their muscle (thugs and dissident military) or influence (politicians, bureaucracy) are have no illusions that what is at stake is getting their noses into a part of the Thaksin money trough, a part of which has been set aside for them by Chief Red. Take the money away and it all collapses like a pack of cards. Some of the supporters are impatient and are blowing their cover. Game On.

Edited January 24, 2010 by yoshiwara

[rixalex]

Take the money away and it all collapses like a pack of cards.

Absolutely (same goes for the PAD i might add).

It's a fight for power - nothing to do with the greater good of the country as some members would have you believe - and money is what fuels it. Take away the money and everyone goes back home and gets on with living their lives.

[Thai at Heart]

There was a certain inevitability that once the army can't shoot people with impunity and that the international community won't tolerate the army willly nilly taking power from time to time that people would challenge the army's primacy.

This showdown was just a matter of time in the making.

[animatic]

Take away the propaganda and believers from BOTH sides, and it is an attempted power grab and nothing more.

The ONLY way Thaksin can get his face back and get his money back is a power grab.

But the side currently in power is doing more long term good for the people, as I observe,

irrespective of the long term Thaksin PR campaign to the contrary.

I support them over the side which I have observed is a very vocal, but false, savior of the people.

Having seen a a Thaksin lead government, I don't want it back when he is even more unstable

than he was toward the end in 2006.

It's one thing to gain power for it's own sake, it's another entirely

to use it properly as best you can in the circumstance you have.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[ruskiehat]

Take the money away and it all collapses like a pack of cards.

Absolutely (same goes for the PAD i might add).

It's a fight for power - nothing to do with the greater good of the country as some members would have you believe - and money is what fuels it. Take away the money and everyone goes back home and gets on with living their lives.

This might have been the case a few years ago, but I do feel there is a sense of frustration with the common every day folk. I have heard thai's talk about leaders in a way i have never dreamed of before and we live in an age of information, where the truth is not easily conceled. Give the Thai people a little respect, they have their own future at stake here and a lot are pissed of with the current status quo.

Edited January 24, 2010 by ruskiehat

[Jingthing]

It is true, the expectations have been raised, but the fundamentals to deliver on all those expectations doesn't exist.

[animatic]

It is true, the expectations have been raised, but the fundamentals to deliver on all those expectations doesn't exist.

And there's the rub Thaksin raised expectations unrealistically because HOW he did it was utterly unsustainable.

So no matter who tries after him to actual do the right things, it can't meet the TRT PR machines

raised level of expectations for a continued gravy train.

When the rubber hits the road, particularly with a coming 'change of life' nationally...

many of those with raised expectations may try to get the perceived best source of their elevation back in office

but god help us all if that happens, and as can be expected, it can't deliver on those grand promises for more than months...

The back lash would be nation shaking. So we either take our medicine now or maybe much worse latter.

Thaksin seems to be pushing the day of reckoning closer in time for his own reasons,

but that may well mean the final reckoning comes later and harsher.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[ManilaLover]

Stupid question perhaps, but what color of shirts do the muslims wear ??

How is the relation between the reds and muslims ?

[Jingthing]

Stupid question perhaps, but what color of shirts do the muslims wear ??

How is the relation between the reds and muslims ?

Its a good question. I would say neither. Under Thaksin there were horrible atrocities against Muslims in the south, while the yellows are known to represent a traditional Buddhist conservative point of view.

[rixalex]

This might have been the case a few years ago, but I do feel there is a sense of frustration with the common every day folk.

At any given time there's usually at least one group in society that feels frustrated. Perhaps it's just that you happen to be living amongst the group that currently feels that way? Had you come to my neighbourhood five years ago you would have met then an awful lot of common every day folk who were extremely frustrated - pissed off to put it blunty. Now, in general at least, they seem not to be. It's all about who you speak to. Don't mistake those you do speak to as speaking for the nation.

[ManilaLover]

is that the first step to a civil war? Army fight against Army?

well those reds don't really look like being born as strategic snipers, hehe... more drunk slingshot people.

let the army spray over them asap please, new era can start then.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Stupid question perhaps, but what color of shirts do the muslims wear ??

How is the relation between the reds and muslims ?

Its a good question. I would say neither. Under Thaksin there were horrible atrocities against Muslims in the south, while the yellows are known to represent a traditional Buddhist conservative point of view.

utter nonsense... you are doing it again - linking Buddhism/Monarchy and all 'things good' with one political faction - I am Buddhist and utterly contradict this assertion (as would my Thai friends if I quoted you).

[MacWalen]

Anytime i read these threads about red/yellow and the claims of democracy i just look at this pic and realize it's all about money.

This coup leader gave him the telecoms empire thanks to his wife's connected family.

Money and the power.

Exactly, power and money or money first and power later as it can usually buy the latter.

Just a thought, a reflection - if all this political trouble in Thailand is happening when Khun Thaksin does not have access to his fortune I can only imagine how interesting it will become if the money is returned to him! He would become super powerful, more than ever. The good news is that it is believed that he would forgive all his opponents and promises to take no revenge on his political enemies. He will live peaceful life and not bother anybody anymore.

We will see, but this is going to get more interesting. What are the bets now? Will he get the money back or not? Any leaks yet?

Edited January 24, 2010 by macwalen

[jdinasia]

is that the first step to a civil war? Army fight against Army?

well those reds don't really look like being born as strategic snipers, hehe... more drunk slingshot people.

let the army spray over them asap please, new era can start then.

Some areas of the S. are uninvolved with the reds and yellows ..... and more caught up with their own issues that have not been adequately dealt with by either side.

That being said the South is far more yellow than red ... Most of Phuket is solidly Democrat (and much of it solidly Yellow) as are areas like Had Yai and NST that are decidedly yellow leaning.

This isn't a religious issue for anyone that I know of. People that suggest it is just don't know that much about Thailand and politics here. For instance, a small but very powerful and vocal part of the PAD groups are members of a Buddhist group that is not part of the Thai Sangha that has been described by many as 'cultish' or more directly as a cult. (While the Santi Asoke folks are a 'fringe' element of Buddhism, I would not describe them so harshly as to call them a cult, instead I would say that they are a more 'fundamentalist' and reactionary group compared to the Thai Sangha).

It is about Democracy and all that that means. The Reds have never been about Democracy at all and the yellows, while having a few spots on their record are far more democratic in nature.

[jayboy]

The Reds have never been about Democracy at all and the yellows, while having a few spots on their record are far more democratic in nature.

So comically outrageous that one can put to one side the dishonesty or possibly wilful ignorance this statement represents.

Clearly the writer doesn't follow history very closely.

[jayboy]

Don't mistake those you do speak to as speaking for the nation.

Message for you here as well Rixalex

[rixalex]

Don't mistake those you do speak to as speaking for the nation.

Message for you here as well Rixalex

Quite so jayboy - a message for us all wouldn't you say?

[jdinasia]

The Reds have never been about Democracy at all and the yellows, while having a few spots on their record are far more democratic in nature.

So comically outrageous that one can put to one side the dishonesty or possibly wilful ignorance this statement represents.

Clearly the writer doesn't follow history very closely.

Actually ... it is based on history, particularly the history since the advent of the Red and yellow movements.

[meelousee]

"he will return to Bangkok Saturday." and promptly be shot? arrested? laughed at?

Let's makeup some stupid story so the people of Thailand will not care what the Finance Minister is doing! And worry about civil war with a pea brain puppet.

Strengthen the Baht (no exports expected)

Cancel forward Rice Contracts since the price increased, and the old price is too low, and wages for Thai harvesters are higher than those of the folks they cracked down on and sent back to Laos, Burma ect.....

Raise the taxes so they can get relief from the first two

Next: Crack down on Red Shirts.

Oh well Forest Gump said it first!

[thaijasmine]

I don. 't know how many on this forum happened to see the Rageh Omaar documentary " Thailand: Warring Colours " shown on Al jazeera two or three weeks ago ? This is more balanced analysis of the situation than you will ever get from locally based media.

Said before on another forum, but this documentary doesn't have a single mention of the PAD protests, featuring some huge numbers, that lead to the coup. Instead our Raggie insinuates it was the "elite" that decided to have the coup because they didn't like Thaksin.

Bullshit, and an insult to the many thousands of people that protested Thaksins abuse of the system when selling AIS to Temasek. It's been reported many times here and elsewhere Thaksin was going to send his mob into Bangkok and the coup occurred to prevent this from happening.

Why not try asking an ordinary civilian about their take on vote buying, rather than a red shirt leader, Raggie? <deleted>...

Oh ok

So we are told the media inside the country is biased and you seem to be suggesting

Al Jazeera even outside the country is biased so where do you suggest we should obtain reliable and unbiased news

coverage of these developments ?

[animatic]

There is no love between Thaksins admin. and the Muslims. He basically either ignored or hammered their areas.

It is often forgotten that the leading coup general was a Muslim. And it can be extrapolated that

part of the calculation to get Thaksin out of office, was because he was increasing Islamic militancy at a high rate down south.

Suthep is old school buddhist / commercialist, but at least he is from the south and understands it's issues some what.

Thaksin was a northerner and seemed to have little grasp of southern subtleties,

nor any demonstrated liking for many from down there of any faith.

After Tak Bai it was a forgone conclusion Thaksin was never going to succeed down there.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[jayboy]

The Reds have never been about Democracy at all and the yellows, while having a few spots on their record are far more democratic in nature.

So comically outrageous that one can put to one side the dishonesty or possibly wilful ignorance this statement represents.

Clearly the writer doesn't follow history very closely.

Actually ... it is based on history, particularly the history since the advent of the Red and yellow movements.

No it's a lie and easily proven too.The Reds have never threatened to disenfranchise anyone and espoused democratic values.It was part of the yellow platform however to effectively disenfranchise a large swathe of rural Thais, to proclaim a Sino-Thai triumphalism, to provide more power to unelected elites and the military.This was compounded by racist slurs on Thais of Lao,Khmer and "non-Thai" origin.

[scorecard]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

I counted up to 14 factual errors in your comments then gave up, some are twists of the facts some are specifically and totally untrue.

Somehow we seem to see a lot of red shirt people saying things which are factually untrue - jatuporn seems to be the grand champion / the mopther of all liars!

You commented "...Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about ...' and "...Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. ..." At least the last four years! So what about the period before that in the taxsin dictatorship? Please don't tell me that was a good example of democracy, in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Please don't tell me the red shirts are genuinly agitating for democracy. In fact please quote some speeches made by their leaders:

- Which discuss / comment on the pillars of democracy, as known in the west. And I deliberately wrote "as known in the west" because one of the early demands of the red shirts was that they wanted democracy the same as the best examples which exist in the western world.

- Respect for the law.

- Respect for the rights of other people to gather and discuss their views.

- Giving details of how they are educating people, expecially those folks who have had little education about how democrcay works, how it can easily fail because one person gets too much power etc.

Please quote some speeches.

Explaining their beliefs specifically vs.

[ruskiehat]

This might have been the case a few years ago, but I do feel there is a sense of frustration with the common every day folk.

At any given time there's usually at least one group in society that feels frustrated. Perhaps it's just that you happen to be living amongst the group that currently feels that way? Had you come to my neighbourhood five years ago you would have met then an awful lot of common every day folk who were extremely frustrated - pissed off to put it blunty. Now, in general at least, they seem not to be. It's all about who you speak to. Don't mistake those you do speak to as speaking for the nation.

You are quite correct in what you say, but I feel, maybe just me, but there's a lot of frustration with this current regime and this is from people who formerly supported the yellow shirt movement.

Lastly please dont be blinded by the fact that bangkok or the cities is thailand, there's more out there, but I do agree with what you say.