Thai-US Relations Are Drifting Apart

[mca]

Thaksin Shinawatra's world-wide and sustained media spin portrayed Thailand as a non-democratic country, ruled by elites and military dictators,

Not being Thaksin's number one fan but I'd like to ask the Nation how a military coup overthrowing the government and well documented history of military dictators being in the chair can be construed as "spin"

[bellagrego]

I don't think I have ever seen such a pile of quai poop in one place. The writer, a well educated, make that , AMERICA educated, social elitist, doesn't have a clue about American politics outside his minuscule sphere of travel. His diatribe, endless clutter of references, speaks volumes of his limited understanding of US positions and his historical references are way off as well. Quite simply, Americans, of which I am one, don't think or consider Thailand at all. Thailand is a non issue and has no influence anywhere except in it's own sphere. Thailand is currently viewed as a "Banana Republic", playing in the fields of democracy. Endless coups, corruption, and a military controlled government, do not lend themselves to a lot of respect from the west. As to the historical reference, we share one unique connection. I would like the writer to take his education to the people and stand for election as he may hold the answer to the endless conflict within this nation. I like his overblown style and rhetoric.

[animatic]

Then how do these nay sayers explain Cobra Gold 2010

is going strong right now between USA and Thailand?

[venturalaw]

Is this a sign that the US of A is loosing its shine? It looks to me like the US of A is in decline. Emerging economies like China and India seems to be creeping into picture.

USA really does not need Thailand for anything, and USA can do pretty well without having much relations with Thailand, now the question is what would Thailand do without USA ?

China or India would never treat Thailand even remotely close as good as USA did.

To all the America haters, i really do not know what is wrong with you people, I am not American, but i do respect America for its place on the planet. Most likely it is the Brits who always attack America and pro-American posts. Hey wake up, someone had to take a place in the world, America did it.

I have never met anyone from any country in the world, who is as proud to be what they are as American people. Yes many mistakes were made, but also many good things were done.

And to further add to the post. To all the West haters and Thailand lovers, it is all great that you have adopted to a new culture and country, but do not forget who you are and where you came from, and what the traditions are/were.

Not to mention who helped Thailand develop into what it is now

From one American, I sincerely thank you.

[geriatrickid]

May be Thailand is looking to be closer to China. China has more economic advantages for Thai than US now and in future

Like what? The dumping of manufactured items into the Thai market that sucks jobs out of the economy. What China wants is natural resources and fresh water, along with land. A country without access to this cannot develop nor care for a growing population. Have a look at Chinese economic investment. It uses Chinese workers and Chinese sourced goods wherever possible when it funds a foreign infrastructure project. Look at it projects in PNG and Africa for a hint.

Many countries have problems with illegal immigrants. Just look at Calais in France, the Mexican-American Border, Christmas Island (Australia). Not too long ago, several Chinese illegal immigrants died on their way to the US. The issue about refugees and illegal immigrants has been too politicized. Countries bearing the burden of refugees and illegal immigrants would rather see this "problem" disappear. As far as Thailand is concerned, it is not their problem. The Hmong refugees from Laos was a result of the Secret War the US wages in Laos. So the US should take care of that problem.

The USA cannot be held responsible for illegal refugees that die when they are crammed into airless shipping containers. That's a case of Chinese nationals exploiting the Chinese poor, not US nationals, nor the US government exploiting them. The US and western nations have taken in far more refugees on a resettlement basis than other countries. There are two countries in the world that have consistently absorbed more people: The USA and Canada. The EU has taken in foreigners, but the large portion of these people come from former colonies and territories, where many had a right to settle in the EU countries, that was until the European countries started revoking those rights. When you show up as a refugee in North America you are not shoved into a barb wired camp and forced to live on food aid and medical care provided by foreign agencies. The bill for the care of the Hmong in Thailand was being footed by international agencies with a large chunk being covered by the USA.

Then how do these nay sayers explain Cobra Gold 2010

is going strong right now between USA and Thailand?

The USA undertakes military cooperation exercises wherever it has "friends" It is a way of showing the flag in the region and of training its own military. The US navy is not counting on the obsolete Thai navy for anything. I would say that the exercises that count are the regular ones between the Australian, Canadian & US navies. along with South korea and Japan. Historically, the British have always partnered with the Indians when it came to exercises and the last one was led by the UK with US and Australian participation. It is why there is a constant exchange of personnel to serve on each other's vessels. There is a large program underway to ensure that various allies have compatible equipment and weapons. It is as mundane as making sure munitions used in a UK sidearm are interchangeable with that used by a Dutch soldier or a Canadian. Thailand is not included in that project. The true test of an ally is whether you give them a finger on the trigger.As a piece of trivia, it was a Canadian that was responsible for the defense of the US airspace subsequent to 9-11. It was an Australian admiral that had responsibility for a large swath of pacific water following the North Korean missile launches. I can't see such responsibilities being handed over to a Thai military officer.

What people have missed though is the growing dipllomatic relationship between the US and Vietnam. It has been led in large part by the very people that should have a grudge. What is remarkable, has been the ability of both sides to forgive and move on. I don't think such forgiveness would be possible in Thailand. As Vietnam is the only nation in the region that has stood up to the Chinese and has both the backbone and ability to do so, it is why the USA is doing its best to make nice with Vietnam.

If you want to see the future of SE Asian relations, look at the Spratt Islands. The need for oil has put China at loggerheads with Malaysia, the Phillippines, Thailand and Vietnam. It is a massive encroachment onto other countries mineral rights. If Thailand thinks it will be safe in the bosom of the Chinese, one need only look to Taiwan to see the fears of those that know better. Although the continued Chines attempts to erode civil liberties in Hong Kong may appeal to some Thaileaders, I don't think the Thai on the street shares that view.

Edited February 1, 2010 by geriatrickid

[Credo]

Thanks for that excellent post, Geriatrickid.

[KKvampire]

Fact is many civilised countries dont like being lectured by a country full of hypocrisy be it on human rights. economics, media control. We could have a whole thread on how the USA falls down on this, but its to be expected from a baby in terms of its history and understanding of how to behave in only some 240 years

[Scott]

Oh good the US bashers are here. And they all come from such stellar places.

[puyaidon]

One of the forum commentators said the US was forced out of Thailand and the Phillipines.

Thailand yes due to the nationalistic fervor created by Koman, not sure of his position at the time but a former Thai ambassador to the US. Koman was and is a virulent critic of anything US.

The Phillipines is another matter. Negotiations were going on to allow the US to remain in country until Mount Pinatubo blew which made Clark AB virtually unusable. Too much money would have had to be spent to bring it back to the condition before the volcano. Of course, if the Phillipine government had not been holding out for more money, we would probably have stayed even after the volcano.

We have had people in the US Congress who deserve to retire. Why Thailand listens to Leahy is beyond me? He talks the same trash as Chavez in Venezuela. Congressmen and Senators in the US only talk so their constituents know they are around or will try to get money for the states like Murtha in Pennsylvania. He had an airport built that only has 2 or 3 flights per week with no one manning the radar approach control. Millions spent just so he can be re-elected.

The Hmong have always been a sore point and Thailand is right in a lot of ways. The US wants Thailand to keep them but provide no money for Thailand to do it. If it is such a sore point, let them emigrate to the US, thousands already have but now the emphasis is on Haiti.

All the countries have their differences for various reasons. It is the nature of the beast.

[sharecropper]

Thanks for that excellent post, Geriatrickid.

What he said.

Also, this is an excellent recent (and short) article on the problems developing in China's Oceanic aspirations. These territorial feuds are being masked by smiles and regional diplomacy for now, but it won't take much to kick one of them off.

From the Economist:

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=15331153

[moe666]

Be very afraid of the Chinese Dragon. China is the one country that have the will, and ability to eventually challenge the US but they have their own internal problems. Eventually those billions of people will get tired of the repression.

[TheJoker12]

The truth is very simple. Thailand has not be doing anything the USA wants it to do. Thailand has no motivation to do what the USA wants it to do. There is no economic benefit to Thailand to increase human rights or sanction Myanmar. The things that the Thai-USA relationship were based on are no longer relevant. We have increased USA-VIETNAM/LAOS/KHMER relationships. Communism is no longer important. Thailand has no desire to stop doing business with Myanmar.

Honestly, Thailand could fall off the face of the face of the earth and the international landscape would hardly be effected. The leaders of Thailand know this and there goal is to simply enrich themselves. Thailand is looked upon as just another third world country with revolving door governments and endless corruption. Thailand does not care at all how it is viewed in the outside world. The country has been a pseudo make believe democracy with an endless amount of military interaction in politics and there is no hope whatsoever of Thailand turning into a first world nation.

[TheJoker12]

What exactly are China and Thailand doing for each other?

Its a global economy. In the past, Thailand was a foot into Southeast Asia. Now its just another very small economy.

In the past, Thailand was given free passes on some of their flaws because of the things they could offer. Now, those offerings are much smaller so they get called out more on their flaws.

I don't think Thai people themselves are at all concerned about human rights in their country, so its no surprise their government isn't either.

Its called a Third World Nation, as in, inferior to first world nations. How about another Coup!

[toybits]

I read somewhere that when you make a comparison between the number of Chinese studying engineering and other science degrees is so staggeringly high compared to the number of US citizens. It does not take are rocket scientist to figure out what that implies. Soon, there will be so much more Chinese scientists doing research and development projects. It is not difficult to believe that in the near future, the Chinese will overtake America. So should you be afraid? Be verrrry afraid?

[britmaveric]

Unfortunately China will implode from within - population will be its undoing.

[Johpa]

History shows that a significant number of Hmong from Thailand were active supporters of the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT). This fact has not been not lost on the Thai military who still hold a grudge and lump all Hmong both Thai and Lao as the same. As a result the Hmong, even those born in Thailand, have suffered signifcant discrimination often including denial of Thai citenzenship here in their homeland. Nearly all Thais refer to the Hmong as Maeo (แมว) which the Hmong consider an ethnic slur. To escape this racism and look for a better life elsewhere, thousands of Thai Hmong are now claiming that they are really from Laos and that they were allies of the US in the 2nd Indochina War when if fact they were just the opposite. These false attempts to gain entrance into the US by deception have made sorting out the truly deserving from the scammers a very difficult task especially since most all Hmong born more than 20 years ago have no birth certificates or any other proof of citenzenship.

Poppycock. Most of the Thai Mong have been in Thailand since well before the fustercluck in Laos. There are some specific villages which were once refugee camps close to the border in Chiang Rai, but the many villages in the uplands in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai have been there for decades.

The CPT had minimal long term, if any, impact in the hills up north and I challenge anyone to find a single communist sympathizer in the highlands today. I have probably spent more time living up in the hills than most and have yet to meet one. The Thais countered the nascent CPT presence in the highlands, where at that time the Thai government previously had no presence to speak of, by building access roads to villages, building schools, and even building a series of pre-schools run by the social welfare agency in order to introduce the youngest kids to some Thai language as well as to the concept of the Thai nation-state before they entered kindergarten, a concept based upon the Head Start program in the US. This Thai government multi-pronged campaign (which included what might be called missionary monks) to win the allegiance of the highland minorities dwarfed the minuscule efforts of the CPT who were already moving down south.

To consider the Thai Mong communist is laughable for those of us who know first hand the industriousness and work ethic and subsequent financial success of many Mong over the past several decades as a result of switching from opium, a crop heavily price controlled by the wholesalers, to a wide variety of market cash crops. This crop substitution blossomed once there were roads to get fresh produce to the markets. Today many Mong villages are, if anything, more prosperous than many neighboring Thai villages.

Most of the Mong who have resided up north for many decades, if not many generations, have Thai citizenship although it was brought to my attention by a talk from a CMU professor that the Thai ID cards code for highland minorities. I have yet to meet a Thai Mong who feigned to be a Lao Mong eligible for refugee status in the US, although I have met a few US Mong visiting Thailand to look for a bride.

The Mong, as well as the other highland minority folks certainly suffer from discrimination; but more from the ignoramuses down in Bangkok, and perhaps alas the Thai military elite that is married into the Sino-Thai Bangkok economic elite, than from their neighbors up north. So Groongthep, you need to get out of Bangkok more often and escape the small mindedness that permeates the capitol.

[dumball]

China has already overtaken the US in the alternative energy field by a double country mile but are way behind in producing what is needed for their needs , their biggest problem in some respects , is a balooning poor population and feeding them is becoming a huge problem .

[dumball]

'britmaveric'

Unfortunately China will implode from within - population will be its undoing.

Great minds think alike , you were posting as I was two finger rapid typing in the same vein . 555

[animatic]

Fact is many civilised countries dont like being lectured by a country full of hypocrisy be it on human rights. economics, media control. We could have a whole thread on how the USA falls down on this, but its to be expected from a baby in terms of its history and understanding of how to behave in only some 240 years

Most Amercans are descended from people who escaped from OLD world countries repression.

So the country may ONLY be 240 years old, but we all came from one or another or even several

of your OLD countries and have all the OLD countries histories just as much as you do.

That's why we have so many HYPHEANTED-Americans; Irish americans Itialian-Americans Afro-Americans.

All that past history is available and often read in detail, not ignored like

Oh gee time ONLY started in 1776...

You just had so much longer to get set in your ways,

and Americans were just the types of people

who embraced change and gravitated to where

change and opportunity were possible.

You are happy to lecture Americans here,

but don't like a YOUNG country to lecture you.

You need not be from some specific place to learn from their history.

And you need not be from some place to also see what was done wrong there.

And done right, and only bother to take what was done right, back home with you.

But some seem content to ONLY learn what their small section of the world has to offer

and ignore anything from other peoples... or god forbid YOUNGER peoples! Bah Humbug!

--------------------------------

Speaking of peoples getting away from oppression at home 20 years ago this was so.

"The 2000 U.S. Census states that there are about 200,000 to 250,000 people of full

or partial Hmong ancestry living in the United States."

Edited February 1, 2010 by animatic

[TheJoker12]

I read somewhere that when you make a comparison between the number of Chinese studying engineering and other science degrees is so staggeringly high compared to the number of US citizens. It does not take are rocket scientist to figure out what that implies. Soon, there will be so much more Chinese scientists doing research and development projects. It is not difficult to believe that in the near future, the Chinese will overtake America. So should you be afraid? Be verrrry afraid?

So do you think China is going to team up with the EU and Japan against the USA?

No, very clearly its: USA, Canada, EU, Japan... and most likely Russia...

So therefore China has to hope for CHINA-INDIA-BRAZIL (?? GOOD LUCK)...

So please lets stop these very silly "China is taking over the world hysteria"... They DO NOT have the numbers... Its really very silly...

[phetaroi]

This is just a general observation...not one where I'm taking a position on the issues being discussed here.

While some of the posts in this thread have shreds of truth and reality, but overall, we don't know what we're talking about. We're amateurs trying to discuss something that even historians will not be able to decipher for decades to come. The over-simplifications of ideas here is almost laughable. America is good. America is bad. Thailand is important. Thailand is not important. America is in decline. China is becoming dominant. All these generalizations, gleaned from insights glimpsed on CNN, MSNBC, and FOXNEWS, for the most part.

Nothing wrong with the conversation. Just don't take ourselves too seriously. We have almost no real facts and few accurate insights.

[clip]

another country disliking the americans ha what a surprise!!!

[LaoPo]

Oh good the US bashers are here. And they all come from such stellar places.

I have seen more China bashing so far than US bashing to be fair....

Apparently China bashing is nothing wrong with; US bashing is...?

I didn't participate so far but that's my opinion.

The thing is that the topic is about Thai-US Relations are drifting apart but the content actually drifted towards China (also), not so much the Thai-US relation but maybe I didn't read all messages well enough.

LaoPo

[selftaopath]

What did they expect the reaction to be for the repatriation? Did they expect a medal? These things have consequences.

Consequences? Does Thailand understand the meaning? Where can I view evidence that it does? One of the few things fully understood in Lack of Sanctions (LOS) is corruption/greed/ME first mentality.

Thai people deserve better.

Keoki

[brahmburgers]

Many informed postings on this thread - enjoyable reading.

Thailand's leaders are trying to find some sort of equilibrium, and it doesn't help to have a self-exiled influencial person continually trying to smear the current gov't and institutions. Thailand is somewhat like an obstinate youngster who is alternately grateful and unappreciative of bigger kids on the block, in this case, China and USA.

With China, the parameters are better defined, whereas with the USA the signals can be misconstrued. China has its 'givens' which include absolute ownership of Tibet, and unyielding covetness of Taiwan. The US appears devil-may-care in the the images of it projects from Hollywood, but American authorities are resolute about drugs, terrorists and despots. China can tolerate all sorts of despots (except their home-grown variety) - as financial success, for them, supersedes humanitarian concerns, free speech and oppressive regimes.

BTW, the Hmong concern by US officials was fueled largely by pressure from Right Wing Christian groups - which wield much influence in Washington.

[Thai at Heart]

Could it be possible that America's Influence may go in direct proportion to its business' ability to pay under the table for influence? Anti bribery legislation must be making it harder and harder for American company's to keep friends.

If I were a member of Thailand's military, and I saw that it was getting harder and harder for my money to turn up, wouldn't I rather consider being friends with European or other country's companies, who seem ever increasingly able to grease my palm that much more easily?

Edited February 2, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[animatic]

...And you need not be from some place to also see what was done wrong there....

I can be quite hard on USA too, but for logical reasons and not because it's not 'Olde Enough'...

Bush ruined the country for generations in my eyes, and that isn't a joke, though many want to laugh at it.

Too many see the USA as this great agreement amongst all to be what it is, versus the reality of

so many opinions that it can't always keep it's mind straight.

Versus or compared to the alternative super power:

China gets its bashings for quite logical reasons to, it has earned them

in the eyes of much of the western thinkers. And regardless if you are in love with China or not

it is not this perfect wonderland and above reproach as some would like it to appear.

China comes into this picture because it is what is causing much of the realignment and disconnect

between USA and indo-china regional players. And in this discussion specifically Thailand.

I doubt that it is lost on Chinas uber-communist masters that 'Communism' didn't

make it a super power in the area, they won the wars, but not the battle.

It is the capitalist wolf in sheeples clothing of communism that actually has turned the tide,

in Chinas favor to greatly control the regional economic block,

which they NOW realize is more important than controlling the POLITICAL thought in the indo-China bloc.

And Thailands economic realities are more likely the cause of this Lao/Thai/USA realignment.

because the 800lb gorilla in the corner is China, and Laos and Thailand want it well fed,

and content not to tear up the cage. And to collect its gratitude at being fed enough to be content.

China gets bashed because of logical reasons, obvious to all, but not always stated because

some will play tattletaie, like school children and get the critiquing person in trouble with

the thought police, as opposed to seeing 'critique as part of the needed growth process of a super power'.

Thing is about tattletails, in school it's not much, just kids looking for brownie points with teacher.

In real life it is harmful even as the words told about, are really not much of an issue.

But the reaction to them can be deadly or dislocating or just plain an over reaction

from the overly sensitive. And if the tattletaler does it to make brownie points for business

or personal interests then that is as low as it gets. We KNOW this stupidity goes on of course.

USA gets bashed for it's wind swept changes of mind, a by product of democratic systems.

I often bash USA myself, but try to do it from a logical position, not one of resentment.

Edited February 2, 2010 by animatic

[toybits]

The new China will be different from the one most of us have grown to know. It will probably be a very modern China and we are not even prepared for it. With such a large economy and labor pool, it could easily out-manufacture any of the current powerhouses today.

The is becoming more real by the day. To many Asians, it looks as if the sun is setting on traditional western powerhouses.

Asians do not consider this as a silly Idea.

So do you think China is going to team up with the EU and Japan against the USA?

No, very clearly its: USA, Canada, EU, Japan... and most likely Russia...

So therefore China has to hope for CHINA-INDIA-BRAZIL (?? GOOD LUCK)...

So please lets stop these very silly "China is taking over the world hysteria"... They DO NOT have the numbers... Its really very silly...

[Thai at Heart]

The new China will be different from the one most of us have grown to know. It will probably be a very modern China and we are not even prepared for it. With such a large economy and labor pool, it could easily out-manufacture any of the current powerhouses today.

The is becoming more real by the day. To many Asians, it looks as if the sun is setting on traditional western powerhouses.

Asians do not consider this as a silly Idea.

So do you think China is going to team up with the EU and Japan against the USA?

No, very clearly its: USA, Canada, EU, Japan... and most likely Russia...

So therefore China has to hope for CHINA-INDIA-BRAZIL (?? GOOD LUCK)...

So please lets stop these very silly "China is taking over the world hysteria"... They DO NOT have the numbers... Its really very silly...

The biggest change that China will have against the China we see today and that of the last 40 or 50 years, it that it will become increasingly democratic.

The idea that the entire Chinese populous will continue to be obedient good little citizens as China move to dominate the world is rather naive. There are already enormous distortions and disparities of wealth in China, and it is not impossible to believe that there could be some quite serious social upheaval if the problems of the rural poor are not addressed. Don't we seem to discuss this about another country close to home also?

Unfortunately, for the Chinese economic juggernaut (GDP/head still a fraction of the developed world) to continue it needs to be able to subjugate to a degree the rights of its population. Furthermore, the government sector despite some improvement over the years is still enormously inefficient and wasteful. I was in China when the ridiculous discussion about condo owners owning their own parking spaces was being had. The system must change to allow China to continue to grow economically.

I don't foresee that China will be able to drag all of its people along with it economically with the current political and legal structures.

[Groongthep]

History shows that a significant number of Hmong from Thailand were active supporters of the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT). This fact has not been not lost on the Thai military who still hold a grudge and lump all Hmong both Thai and Lao as the same. As a result the Hmong, even those born in Thailand, have suffered signifcant discrimination often including denial of Thai citenzenship here in their homeland. Nearly all Thais refer to the Hmong as Maeo (แมว) which the Hmong consider an ethnic slur. To escape this racism and look for a better life elsewhere, thousands of Thai Hmong are now claiming that they are really from Laos and that they were allies of the US in the 2nd Indochina War when if fact they were just the opposite. These false attempts to gain entrance into the US by deception have made sorting out the truly deserving from the scammers a very difficult task especially since most all Hmong born more than 20 years ago have no birth certificates or any other proof of citenzenship.

Poppycock. Most of the Thai Mong have been in Thailand since well before the fustercluck in Laos. There are some specific villages which were once refugee camps close to the border in Chiang Rai, but the many villages in the uplands in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai have been there for decades.

The CPT had minimal long term, if any, impact in the hills up north and I challenge anyone to find a single communist sympathizer in the highlands today. I have probably spent more time living up in the hills than most and have yet to meet one. The Thais countered the nascent CPT presence in the highlands, where at that time the Thai government previously had no presence to speak of, by building access roads to villages, building schools, and even building a series of pre-schools run by the social welfare agency in order to introduce the youngest kids to some Thai language as well as to the concept of the Thai nation-state before they entered kindergarten, a concept based upon the Head Start program in the US. This Thai government multi-pronged campaign (which included what might be called missionary monks) to win the allegiance of the highland minorities dwarfed the minuscule efforts of the CPT who were already moving down south.

To consider the Thai Mong communist is laughable for those of us who know first hand the industriousness and work ethic and subsequent financial success of many Mong over the past several decades as a result of switching from opium, a crop heavily price controlled by the wholesalers, to a wide variety of market cash crops. This crop substitution blossomed once there were roads to get fresh produce to the markets. Today many Mong villages are, if anything, more prosperous than many neighboring Thai villages.

Most of the Mong who have resided up north for many decades, if not many generations, have Thai citizenship although it was brought to my attention by a talk from a CMU professor that the Thai ID cards code for highland minorities. I have yet to meet a Thai Mong who feigned to be a Lao Mong eligible for refugee status in the US, although I have met a few US Mong visiting Thailand to look for a bride.

The Mong, as well as the other highland minority folks certainly suffer from discrimination; but more from the ignoramuses down in Bangkok, and perhaps alas the Thai military elite that is married into the Sino-Thai Bangkok economic elite, than from their neighbors up north. So Groongthep, you need to get out of Bangkok more often and escape the small mindedness that permeates the capitol.

Khun Johpa, when I said that many Hmong were supporters of the CPT I was referring times in the past (circa 1976), not today. They were influenced by the Maoist Chinese cadres who had infiltrated Thailand around that time as well as by the idealistic Thai students who fled to the hills after the Thammasat massacre of '76. I never claimed that the present day Thai Hmong were in any way communist or communist sympathizers. Except perhaps to some ancient Thai military commanders communism has become an archaic non-issue these days anyway. I am also quite aware that the Thai Hmong where in Thailand long before the current "fustercluck in Laos" as you call it. I'm not sure what part of my post gave you the impression that I was claiming they were not nor did I contend that the current Thai Hmong were being discriminated against by their fellow hill dwellers but you do however, seem to agree with me that the rest of Thai society does indeed have a somewhat less than egalitarian view of the "Meo".

I will admit that you have a valid argument that I don't get out of Bangkok enough. My comments were indeed influenced almost exclusively by residents of the Capital and as such were not completely indicative of the opinions of all Thais. My claim that some Thai Hmong are claiming refugee status however comes from one I know who works at the embassy/consulate. True, I have no proof but I trust this person and she has no reason to lie about the matter.

A well written and researched article by a Hmong scholar appears here: Hmong Article. It is rather long and out of date but still by and large gives an accurate account of the Hmong situation in Thailand and covers many of the issues we have discussed. Maybe you will find it interesting.

Thanks for your comments. I will make an effort to get off my lazy ass and get up to CM and the environs again sometime soon. Traipsing through the boonies no longer holds the appeal it once did to me, but it's been too long since I've been up there.