Thai-US Relations Are Drifting Apart

[animatic]

My goodness, you are cherry picking again. So the PRC has been around for only a few decades right? And what about the time before the PRC was created? You fall victim to your own line of reasoning.

Thanks to the Chinese, your brilliant western scientists have paper to print their articles on.

North America was populated before the white man came. You failed to mention that the white man tried to exterminate the "Native Americans" . Now you put them in reservations where they cannot plant anything. Good thing some states have allowed them to manage casinos and get back a little bit of something.

And It really makes no difference if China is 2 millenia old or 200 years old.

But the judgment you use.. life time of government.

USA is 220 years old

and PRC is only 61 years old.... oops.

North America was populated back in the time China was populated,

it's not like no one lived there prior to USA becoming a Nation.

Norsmen, Portugese, Spanish, French and English all lived

and work in America long before the USA government existed.

And just because they were late in coming doesn't mean no culture existed there.

American Indian tribes have equal millenia of time as cultures there

compared to China's tribes there. Yet neither was PRC or USA.

So actually China and Americans have equal times in place,

and PRC is MUCH younger that USA.

Seem you arguments are more based on bias and cherry pickling actually.

[Publicus]

The PRC eventually will travel to the moon but on science found in products made by Motorola and Nokia.

Keep in mind that the mobile phone you or I have has more technology in it that the NASA moon flights of 1969 -75.

What Science?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Publicus

[animatic]

Seems it was a cross section of EUROPEAN ex-patriots that oppressed the Native Americans.

The Euro Supreme ethic they brought over.

Lets not forget the brilliant history of colonization and oppression

that our European and Asian brothers all applied for centuries worldwide.

Seems your arguments are more based on jingoist bias and cherry pickling actually.

If you want to include the cultures before the present day governments inceptions,

then USA gets to include ALL of Europe's national histories and much of the orients too.

Like it or not, but USA is made up of those who were adventurous enough or wild enough,

to leave Europe and and the other previously settled regions and start anew,

but that doesn't suddenly erase all that PREVIOUS history.

Sorry mate your history is our history too.

Just because we left doesn't invalidate that history. So that means we have

the common history of Guttenburg, Newton, Bach, Gallelao and many, many more,

all passed down to us by OUR ancestors. Same as paper was passed to

current residents of PRC by earlier residents of the area called China.

The main question repeatedly asked and ignored is:

What have they done lately?

So there goes another argument.

And though these computers we are using in part were made in Taiwan and some in PRC,

the technology advances were not made in PRC..but through Japanese, Taiwanese,

AND American applied research. Building off off the works of At&t, Intel, Apple, Motorola,

NASA and many others through the last 50 years. PRC hasn't made these massive advance,

only built products under contract based on these existing technologies. Or copied them...

Manufacturing and ancient history are not benchmarks to present day science research and application.

What have they done lately?

Neither is jingoist anti-big dog bashing a benchmark of a good argument.

You may be happy that American is faltering at the moment,

but it might not be too long before you ultimately regret that misplace glee.

Edited February 8, 2010 by animatic

[toybits]

What does this mean? Spread the blame? ha ha...

What have they done lately? Why not wait and see. Isn't that what this is all about? The emergence of a new world order - but one unlike what you envisioned?

Like they say, the ball is round. One day you are up there. The next....

Seems it was a cross section of EUROPEAN ex-patriots that oppressed the Native Americans.

The Euro Supreme ethic they brought over.

Lets not forget the brilliant history of colonization and oppression

that our European and Asian brothers all applied for centuries worldwide.

Seems your arguments are more based on jingoist bias and cherry pickling actually.

If you want to include the cultures before the present day governments inceptions,

then USA gets to include ALL of Europe's national histories and much of the orients too.

Like it or not, but USA is made up of those who were adventurous enough or wild enough,

to leave Europe and and the other previously settled regions and start anew,

but that doesn't suddenly erase all that PREVIOUS history.

Sorry mate your history is our history too.

Just because we left doesn't invalidate that history. So that means we have

the common history of Guttenburg, Newton, Bach, Gallelao and many, many more,

all passed down to us by OUR ancestors. Same as paper was passed to

current residents of PRC by earlier residents of the area called China.

The main question repeatedly asked and ignored is:

What have they done lately?

So there goes another argument.

And though these computers we are using in part were made in Taiwan and some in PRC,

the technology advances were not made in PRC..but through Japanese, Taiwanese,

AND American applied research. Building off off the works of At&t, Intel, Apple, Motorola,

NASA and many others through the last 50 years. PRC hasn't made these massive advance,

only built products under contract based on these existing technologies. Or copied them...

Manufacturing and ancient history are not benchmarks to present day science research and application.

What have they done lately?

Neither is jingoist anti-big dog bashing a benchmark of a good argument.

You may be happy that American is faltering at the moment,

but it might not be too long before you ultimately regret that misplace glee.

[toybits]

As is yours.

Seem you arguments are more based on bias and cherry pickling actually.

[animatic]

As is yours.

Seem you arguments are more based on bias and cherry pickling actually.

Actually I can be quite hard on the USA too,

and don't let my origin overly bias me for it.

I found Bush in general a gross miscarriage of logic.

That will be decades or more to live down if ever possible.

I wasn't arguing pro USA vs China,

but debunking modern myths vis a vis the Pro china hagographers.

The sheer numbers of papers published is not as important as

the peer reviewed quality and usefulness.

When it comes to real science, I'll vote for Quality over Quantity any day.

And don't care where it originates, if it's real and useful.

Edited February 8, 2010 by animatic

[johncitizen]

The writing is on the wall here guys.

As Newsweek recently reported, Indonesia is the new Thailand, and Thailand is the new Indonesia.

It's continuing indecision about whether it is a democracy, military dictatorship, aristocracy or oligarchy comes at the expense of its own relevance. What we have here is a corrupt and ineffective government installed halfheartedly and now barley propped up by a crumbling conservative-military elite. It keeps its citizens in line using intimidation, hard-nationalism, a bent judiciary, a state controlled media and the politicization of the nations beloved monarchy. It's economic management record is fast becoming a running joke, with little more to offer foreign investors other than rock-bottom wages and working conditions, and a blind eye to dodgy business practice.

And yet it still demands to be considered a democracy and cutting edge "creative economy."

It's time to wake up and smell the pla raa.

It's time to call it a day, to kick the rotting tapeworms at the heart of the Establishment canker to the curb, and to hold free and fair general elections, minus the usual interference by the military.

Or else Thailand may as well start treating it's neighbors Cambodia and Myanmar like the family they are.

jc.

Edited February 8, 2010 by johncitizen

[toybits]

Actually, it is unfair to make that judgement now since the USofA has had much more headstart compared to the PRC. But when you look at the advances they have made post Mao's cultural revolution, it does look rather stunning that they have achieved so much over such a short period. Now when you extrapolate the data, it looks and consider things like advances in basic research, human resource development, economic growth, China begins to look like an unstoppable behemoth.

As is yours.

Seem you arguments are more based on bias and cherry pickling actually.

Actually I can be quite hard on the USA too,

and don't let my origin overly bias me for it.

I found Bush in general a gross miscarriage of logic.

That will be decades or more to live down if ever possible.

I wasn't arguing pro USA vs China,

but debunking modern myths vis a vis the Pro china hagographers.

The sheer numbers of papers published is not as important as

the peer reviewed quality and usefulness.

When it comes to real science, I'll vote for Quality over Quantity any day.

And don't care where it originates, if it's real and useful.

Edited February 8, 2010 by toybits

[LaoPo]

I didn't follow the discussion anymore for 1 or 2 days and see what happens ?

It becomes a fight between toddlers who knows best and who's father (America vs China) is stronger.

Guess who wins?

The Strongest Nation on Earth, of course !

Some are ridiculing the quality of the Science reports by China WITHOUT ridiculing their own (USA) Science reports.

Not very fair Gents, without you, having the knowledge about those reports and/or even reading or studying them.

I only published the link from the Thomson Reuters Science Institute, proving to Publicus that China isn't just a paste-and-copy country like he claims it to be; yet, you start immediately ridiculing and degrading the quality of those reports WITHOUT knowing anything about them.

How childish, and shall we leave such a decision and qualification to the Scientists who are able to judge about them Gentlemen ?

If China would have NO science and development of their own, how come Warren Buffett realized that a company like BYD was far ahead, worldwide, in sophisticated battery technology and bought his company into BYD ?; a company you Gents will be amazed of because they will start selling their electric cars into the USA, in 2010.

BYD a company, founded in 1995; 15 years old.

Ridiculing China is a dangerous road Gentlemen and you could be proven so wrong that you will feel ashamed in 10-20 years. Don't forget that many people, like yourselves, said the same about Japan, 50 years ago

The difference is that the Japanese fully understand, and so do the Koreans, that China is on a track nobody is able to stop, also in science and technology.

Maybe still far away from USA's, British, German, Italian, Swiss and Dutch technology, to name a few, but the Chinese are clever, smart and very intelligent and in the time you are reading this, many thousands of highly intelligent young men and women from China are studying like heck on Universities, worldwide and at a certain stage will return to their home country with the know-how they have gained.

Your own (European as well) industries made huge mistakes by underestimating the Japanese and look what they accomplished and what happened to America's car industry in Detroit...not even mentioning all other industries you lost to Japan.

Arrogance is a bad habit.

LaoPo

[animatic]

Nobody denies China is coming of age after nearly killing itself for so long.

It has made major strides since Deng, but not enough.

Still size and need to succeed or explode as it has historically so many times,

means it MUST move into this age in a big way, and it's leaders MUST learn

how it can be done and not make the rest of the world collapse under Chinas ill prepared weight.

If a banking and liquidity crisis in USA can cause such problems,

imagine a arrogant and misunderstanding PRC acting the 900lb gorrila in the corner

who decided all the bananas are his... and leaves non to replant the farm...

Edited February 8, 2010 by animatic

[ding]

American companies like Boeing are teaching China to fish rather than sell it fish. Japan went 'white hot' and I predicted it would burn out 20 years ago. Whereas, China is looking down the road further. Its authoritarian structure is ruthless. It offers it citizens the "gold or lead" choice. They can have a tiny share of the growing economy under authoritarians, or get shot.

But authoritarian rule has always been overthrown and it's never been pretty. It's the history of life on earth and undeniable if not delayed. It was not simply Bush that ruined America, it was an ideology and a corrupt media used as propaganda. Taksin was a Boyscout in comparison. But Rome2 is fallen and it's angry citizens have loads of little guns. I don't see us declining with grace, sadly.

Also, China owns America's debt and wants Taiwan. ___DUCK!___

Please explain how Thailand is doomed and Muslim dominated Indonesia is the next Asian Tiger. I don't know enough about it at present, but open to new info.

[Spee]

Please explain how Thailand is doomed and Muslim dominated Indonesia is the next Asian Tiger.

I agree. Thailand is only doomed if it self-destructs. With an abundance of natural resources, massive food production potential and a huge relatively inexpensive labor force, Thailand can only not succeed if it prevents itself from succeeding from within. Unfortunately, this is within the realm of possibility at present.

I don't see Indonesia becoming the next Asian Tiger, or even Malaysia, unless one or both takes action to try and appropriate Singapore. I don't think this would be very well received by the rest of the world. On the other hand, if one would have suggested 30-40 years ago that the Brits would turn over free-market capitalist Hong Kong to Communist China before the year 2000, they might have been branded as looney.

[brahmburgers]

Interesting that, for a number of years, some of the best researchers in the US have Chinese surnames.

A major reason is, the US offers top notch facilities and access to cutting edge info. The US (universities and corporations) probably also offer more incentive for innovative thinking.

China itself is catching up on the facilities facet, but unfettered access to cutting edge info will be restricted if Google is gone. It's also debatable whether there are venues in China for unfettered innovative thinking - which give birth to creative developments.

Plus, the people who come forth with innovative concepts/contraptions are those who are familiar with much of what came forth earlier. In other words, if I'm going to try to develop a concept for a biometric chip which interfaces with a person's physiology, (or a motor that runs on an unusual power source), I need to know as much as possible about all the most recent related developments in that field.

China is getting closer to true innovation, but it would help if their monolithic government would not interfere. In the meantime, expect many of the most promising Chinese innovators to try and get to US or Europe in order to develop their concepts.

[Spee]

Interesting that, for a number of years, some of the best researchers in the US have Chinese surnames.

Interesting that, for a number of years, many cases of industrial, military and intelligence espionage have involved researchers in the US with Chinese surnames.

[animatic]

Interesting that, for a number of years, some of the best researchers in the US have Chinese surnames.

A major reason is, the US offers top notch facilities and access to cutting edge info. The US (universities and corporations) probably also offer more incentive for innovative thinking.

China itself is catching up on the facilities facet, but unfettered access to cutting edge info will be restricted if Google is gone. It's also debatable whether there are venues in China for unfettered innovative thinking - which give birth to creative developments.

Plus, the people who come forth with innovative concepts/contraptions are those who are familiar with much of what came forth earlier. In other words, if I'm going to try to develop a concept for a biometric chip which interfaces with a person's physiology, (or a motor that runs on an unusual power source), I need to know as much as possible about all the most recent related developments in that field.

China is getting closer to true innovation, but it would help if their monolithic government would not interfere. In the meantime, expect many of the most promising Chinese innovators to try and get to US or Europe in order to develop their concepts.

Yes this sums up the issues with PRC Chinese research. No one has said Chinese People, make bad researchers.

But the environment that they have to work in discourages it. Yet put them in a open and enthusiastically

entrepreneurial and discovery oriented environment they thrive.

Just building a good lab isn't good science.

It is creating a workable mindset and environment for good science

that actually gets the job done. That's not arrogance, but is logic.

Being defensive and insular doesn't do anything but waste time.

All good science gives itself the opportunity to be torn apart by peer review,

not guarded against that so 'the state' won't lose face.

[animatic]

The Asian Tiger wasn't one country pre-1997 but all of Asia combined.

To suddenly think ONE country will assume that old mantle is not a starter.

One good bit of news is that SE Asia survived the current crisis better than many expected.

Hit hard sure, but not TKO either.

[johncitizen]

Regarding "Thailand is the new Indonesia, Indonesia is the new Thailand," I was quoting a Newsweek article referring to the state of democracy in the respective countries- not the so-called "Asian Tiger" phenomena.

[LindsayBKK]

Even Australia has been treated badly by Previous US Government's trade wise.

Examples? Sources?

Off-topic baseless anti-US Rhetoric? Yep, thought so.

One Here for starters

U.S. Slaps Tariffs On Lamb Imports To Help Domestic Farms, Irritates Australia

By Martin Crutsinger

AP

WASHINGTON - American consumers will face higher prices for lamb chops at the grocery, but U.S. lamb producers say they are happy that President Clinton responded to their pleas for import protection.

The administration announced yesterday that it was imposing higher tariffs ranging from 9 percent to 40 percent on imported lamb in an effort to protect American producers from a flood of imports from Australia and New Zealand.

But Australian officials said they would immediately seek to bring a case against the United States before the World Trade Organization for violating global trade rules.

Clinton's action will cast a pall over upcoming WTO talks to further open agricultural, telecommunications and other trade, said Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who will visit the United States next week. Clinton will host the formal start of the WTO negotiations in Seattle in November.

The White House announced Clinton's action yesterday in South Dakota, where the president had visited an Indian reservation as part of a tour promoting his proposals to provide assistance to distressed areas.

Clinton's decision, which goes into effect July 22, will impose a border tax of 9 percent on the first 31,851 metric tons - about 70 million pounds - of foreign lamb, the amount imported into the United States last year. Lamb imports above that level will carry a 40 percent tariff, the White House said.

The U.S. lamb industry is one of a number of farm and manufacturing groups that have been hit hard by the global currency crisis, which has cut sharply into export sales and led to a flood of cheaper imports.

The Clinton administration has struggled to balance support for free trade with growing calls in Congress for protectionist barriers as the U.S. trade deficit has risen to record levels because of the Asian currency crisis.

Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota said Clinton's decision to impose higher tariffs on imported lamb would provide help for U.S. producers, who have seen lamb prices fall by as much as 40 percent since 1995 while imports have climbed by more than 50 percent. Imported lamb has captured about a third of the U.S. market.

"We are extremely pleased," said Cathy Cummins, an official with the American Sheep Industry Association, based in Denver.

The U.S. industry claimed Australia and New Zealand, who supply 99 percent of U.S. lamb imports, were deliberately selling lamb here at below-market cost to undercut domestic ranchers. But Australia and New Zealand deny this charge, and said U.S. producers need better marketing techniques.

[johncitizen]

That's referring to a policy undertaken by Clinton, which would be two terms ago.

Under the Howard government (during the Bush Administration), we undertook a Free Trade Agreement with the US despite their Farm Bill protecting US farmers, their blatantly one-sided copyright infringement laws, and their continued protection of their manufacturing industry. The FTA has very little support in Australia save among the few industries that it actually benefits.

Edited February 9, 2010 by johncitizen

[LomSak27]

Lamb import shocker, gasp, horror, ... this is earth-sahaking stuff lindsayBkk

now back to bed

[animatic]

4 terms ago... 3 presidents ago.

And if USA movies are being ripped off

and the USA is not ripping of Austrailian movies,

of course it's gonna be one sided.

Seems there ain't a huge market for films from Oz, not since Crocodile Dundee.

And is there are huge Australian software market losing out to copies made in USA?

Not that I have seen.

[moetownblues]

I guess Thailand refuses to kiss American arse like the yanks demand the world to do. Good on you Thailand

[toybits]

And then the yanks complain about it.

I guess Thailand refuses to kiss American arse like the yanks demand the world to do. Good on you Thailand

[on-on]

Is this a sign that the US of A is loosing its shine? It looks to me like the US of A is in decline. Emerging economies like China and India seems to be creeping into picture.

It's a sign that we have a Democratic administration. Objectively speaking, Democratic administrations make more noise about human rights. Carter was famous for it as was Clinton. That's all that's happening here. When a Republican's in charge we make human rights noises, but only about strategic competitors (i.e. USSR, DPRK, China, etc). Whether or not one thinks that is a good or bad thing, or whether it even matters, is another question altogether.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

Can you blame the U.S. for downgrading Thailand as an ally?

The five-man foreign crew of the plane seized at Don Mueang airport two months ago with 35-tonnes of sanctions-busting arms from North Korea were being sent home on Friday after charges against them were dropped. . . .[o]n Thursday, the Office of the Attorney General said it was "not in the national interest to pursue the case and that the five would be deported."

Gun-runners will be set free

This is the same weak-knee crap that has plagued Thailand's foreign policy in the 20th century, including it's role in two world wars. Do they really think the Chinese care whether these gun-runners from Belarus and Kazakhstan are prosecuted?

Edited February 12, 2010 by zaphodbeeblebrox

[moetownblues]

Is this a sign that the US of A is loosing its shine? It looks to me like the US of A is in decline. Emerging economies like China and India seems to be creeping into picture.

It's a sign that we have a Democratic administration. Objectively speaking, Democratic administrations make more noise about human rights. Carter was famous for it as was Clinton. That's all that's happening here. When a Republican's in charge we make human rights noises, but only about strategic competitors (i.e. USSR, DPRK, China, etc). Whether or not one thinks that is a good or bad thing, or whether it even matters, is another question altogether.

Having a democratic administration in the US means nothing to the rest of the world. Your democratic adminstration elected by only US citizens is trying to tell the rest of the world how to live and demand that we all be American whilst you live in a toilet.

[LomSak27]

Your democratic adminstration elected by only US citizens is trying to tell the rest of the world how to live and demand that we all be American whilst you live in a toilet.

Any examples or is this the usual blah blah blah. In case you don't read Euro, antipodean papers they are constantly full of advice on how the US should live abd behave, luckily seppos seem to ignore it.

[brahmburgers]

I guess Thailand refuses to kiss American arse like the yanks demand the world to do. Good on you Thailand

Thailand does indeed follow American ways, whether dictated by Uncle Sam or by Thai (people and government) making choices. Thai drug laws, for example, are the same as US drug laws. Thailand enacted a National Park System inspired by American examples (Yosemite / Yellowstone, etc). Thai driving laws are identical to British driving laws - is moetownblues therefore going to say Thailand kisses Brit ass?

In many ways, Thailand follows the lead of the US - some good some not good. Thais love 7-11's, they love shopping malls, they love American celebrities and their music/movies/glitz.

Among some bad things Thais have learned from America: 'the finger' - the difference is, whereas Americans might just get angry if given the finger, some Thais have been known to get downright murderous.

Edited February 14, 2010 by brahmburgers