Fish Die Off In Pool

[jaideeguy]

yeah, I had the same results with any floating plants, hyacenth [sp?] etc. did have some success with some potted water plants....can't recall the names of plants, but the kind in pots with large round leaves and a beautiful starburst flower that comes in different colors and some are fragrant. Will try to find name on google or better yet, I'll take a foto and post when I have time.

They normally are grown in shallow [1-2ft deep] water and we started them on the steps of the pool and 'walked' them down as they grew longer leaves.

Maybe to keep the koi from eating plants, you could have a floating net to keep the roots from the fish??

my pool specs are 11m longX6m wide at widest and 4 mt wide at shallow end [L shaped] and approx 55 sq mt of surface area. 1.9 mt in the deepest wide area and .9 mt in the shallow narrow end. Total volume [approx] 80 cu mt.

based on that size, how many and what size pumps and what size filter would be ideal to clear water and what would be ideal amount of koi that I could stock it with??

There were a few more 'floating' tabtim this morning, convincing me of the poo/nitrate/amonia theory of cause of death.....so, i gotta drain my pool and replace water before proceeding either back to a swimming pool or taking a bold new direction and going with a koi pond.

Replacing water at this time of year will not be so easy as we are going thru drought conditions and running my pumps for days on end to replace water with my well water may drain my well.

ignis....you say you have 6 pumps running 7/24....what size pumps and how big is your koi pond??

[RedBullHorn]

Actually I do know what I am talking about. If you will read, I was addressing the Koi he said were dying off. Catfish are a completely different thing. They will live in a low oxygen environment. 10% water changes with good filtration is good enough. I have friends who raise tens of thousands of show quality Koi and do not have the problems with nitrate build ups. I have had large ponds for years raising Koi. When you pay $1000 for a fish you pay attention to learning how to keep them alive.

Tim

Ok...You'r referring to Koi....always thought a few koi are just hobby. My mistake...

You should get a different pump than the pool used. They make pumps that have a very low operating cost for ponds. Y9ou need to run the pump all the time. You also need some kind of airation going. A waterfall or water being pumped so it lands on the water surface ans makes a disturbance. this puts oxygen back into the water. The other problem is probably filtration and nitrogen build up. many new ponds run find for the first couple of months. Then the waste and nitrogen builds up and you have problems. Swimming pool filters generally are not up to the job. This is especially true if you have a sand filter. You need some kind of filtration system that will allow for the build up of benificial bacteria which will convert the nitrogen.

Contrary to what someone said abore, Koi are not hardy fish when it comes to water quality. They need very clean water and require constant filtration.

Tim

If you're addresses this for commercial catfish farming in a concrete tank, it would make more economic sense to change at lease 70% or the whole tank after a period of time. The purpose of a filtration system is to recycle so as to acquire better quality water back to its holding tank or pond. So logically, it is 100% water change at single complete cycle rate...if it takes 1 hour to complete 1 water change cycle times 24 hours, you'r actually doing 2400% water change...At approximately 1 Baht per 1 kilowatt(what i'm paying)....Sure!... But maintenance cost for filtration system....No! .... Especially when you are farming 2000 voracious fishes that eat and shit like mad, hands on and change those water in those tank!....100% !!!

For catfish farming...i made my point.

.

[ignis]

yeah, I had the same results with any floating plants, hyacenth [sp?] etc. did have some success with some potted water plants....can't recall the names of plants, but the kind in pots with large round leaves and a beautiful starburst flower that comes in different colors and some are fragrant. Will try to find name on google or better yet, I'll take a foto and post when I have time.

They normally are grown in shallow [1-2ft deep] water and we started them on the steps of the pool and 'walked' them down as they grew longer leaves.

Maybe to keep the koi from eating plants, you could have a floating net to keep the roots from the fish??

my pool specs are 11m longX6m wide at widest and 4 mt wide at shallow end [L shaped] and approx 55 sq mt of surface area. 1.9 mt in the deepest wide area and .9 mt in the shallow narrow end. Total volume [approx] 80 cu mt.

based on that size, how many and what size pumps and what size filter would be ideal to clear water and what would be ideal amount of koi that I could stock it with??

There were a few more 'floating' tabtim this morning, convincing me of the poo/nitrate/amonia theory of cause of death.....so, i gotta drain my pool and replace water before proceeding either back to a swimming pool or taking a bold new direction and going with a koi pond.

Replacing water at this time of year will not be so easy as we are going thru drought conditions and running my pumps for days on end to replace water with my well water may drain my well.

ignis....you say you have 6 pumps running 7/24....what size pumps and how big is your koi pond??

My Pumps now are all AP800…. Before they were 3 times that size + 3x the price..

Refilling your pond as you have a well… many places the Fire Truck will do it for you, you will need to ask them, likewise if there is a Farmer that delivers water

Re filters. You can buy readymade ones there round blue and come in different sizes, I asked at the fish Market yesterday as I was there, small 200 baht, right up to the large ones @ 1,000 baht.

I would say buy 2 large ones, buy 1 sack Larva stones 300 baht, buy 3 packs of the white fiber, [cheaper in packs of 3] will last months, 3 pks cost 160 baht, buy clear plastic tube + clamps [all cheap at a side of the road Builders/ hardware suppliers] ro connect pump to filters. Use lid of blue container as template but cut larger, When I used to use this white fiber I would clean it 2 or 3 times before replacing + all the odd bits you can also use together so not waste any [ I now use 3 different types of Foam, Blues on top, thick Black 2nd, and medium thick Green on the stones, the foam last a long long time, but is VERY expensive to start with.. Mt German Type filters use 4 different layers. But use the old ones on the holding tanks.

Re the German Filter Tanks… YOU can buy Fake ones here made in China [ there is NO moving parts or motor so nothing to go wrong]they look 100% the same but the red button [when back washed needed] is non working and of coarse there is no auto backwash you have to undo the clip and take to bits [easy] to clean yourself. Cost of these yesterday 3,650 baht, the do have a Ultra Violet lights that works... cleans the water

I think myself on your size Swimming pool would use at the shallow end 2 pumps with the air pipe on top, at the beep end 2 pumps sat on the bottom to feed the 2 filters and maybe another pump with the air pipe on top in the middle.. Or maybe 1 pump with the air pipe on top at the shallow end then 2 on the corner of the ‘L’ You need to push all the water and poo to the other end where the filers are.

As I posted before my present size pond is 4 x 2 but plan in the next 18months to rebuild to double the size and 1.5+ m deep

[Naam]

"My Pumps now are all AP800… Before they were 3 times that size + 3x the price..."

= extremely informative

[Naam]

Dr Naam,

Hoping to get your factual input......

It would be easier to pay the electric bill [even if higher] if there were some potiential to make a few THB and have some pretty fish swimming around. I got great pleasure out of my koi before they started floating.

The fact is that the novelty of a swimming pool for the kids [and I] has worn out and I would like to consider an alternative use for it, as you know how much it cost to run/maintain a pool all year and up here in the north, it is only used 6 months out of the year.

Have established that tabtim are less demanding, but to be honest, the green water is not too pretty to look at. A nice clean koi pool/pond with some water plants would look better.

Another alternative would be to cover my pool like yours, then it could extend the swimming season, but cost more THB.

This economic downturn has me pinching satang and looking for alternative income.

hoping to get invited to a commercial koi operation........

i don't have a solution for you JDG. for more than two years i tried to solve the problem in my pond. listened to all bullshit advice (you need big pumps, you only need small pumps, you need a biofilter which costs only 60,000 Baht, you need only bla-la-bla) , spent money galore... no success. now i have reduced my pond to one third of its initial size (from 95 to 35m²). was for a few weeks happy because the water was clear and since then i have green peasoup again. now i am thinking of getting rid of the pond altogether. toads breed in it which can excrete poison on their skins. last year one of my dogs and only recently both dogs where hospitalised (in some kind of intensive care) because they like to play with the toads when it is dark and lick their skin instead of peeing or pooing. had ponds in three other countries (Germany, Florida and West Africa). never any problem! especially not with the african pond and its crocodile. thinking of changing my present pond to a crocodile pond with a few of these little bastards (they provide quite some fun). but have to add a little fence and make provisions that they can sun themselves. they are easily available at the BKK night market for a few hundred Baht. i am still hesitating because i have no idea whether the crocs go for the tiny liitle fish (10-15mm) which eat mosquito larvae. we have no mosquito problems where i live and i don't want to breed them in my pond.

this is not a joke!

p.s. all you good people out there who would like to advice me that keeping crocs is illegal... shove your advice where the moon doesn't shine

[jaideeguy]

Thanks for all the input.....

4 more 'floaters' today and am running spray over water 5 hrs a day just to help the survivors while i have a submersible pump slowly pumping the bottom in the hope of sucking out some of the fish poo to water my garden with.

meanwhile, I stumbled on this great concept [if it works] and rather than describe it, the link is http://kilk.com/pond/

and there are a few other sites on a bio vege filter that not only filters your water, but you can grow vegetables with fish waste.

My main concern about this system is that the tropical temps may be a problem, but many edible and ornamental tropical plants could be substituted.

Dr Naam......makro sells croc meat and it is tasty...so it can't be too illegal. Tastes sorta like a cross between chicken and fish.....or like turtle meat.

Apologies to the vegetarians out there........

[Naam]

Dr Naam......makro sells croc meat and it is tasty...so it can't be too illegal.

i have been told it is illegal for a private person to keep crocs. thai crocmeat does not have a nice taste. aussie crocmeat is ok but only once in a while one can find it in Foodland. Florida Alligator is delicious (i miss it!). have to check Makro whether it's local or imported Oz croc (as if somebody would bloody know).

[jaideeguy]

The croc meat in makro is under the 'malai' brand that has a variety of exotic meats....wild boar, deer, croc, etc. in the frozen section. Can't say if it is Thai croc, but will look next time.

did you check the link I provided for a vege-bio filter and pool to pond makeover?? would appreciate feedback on that method of filtration.

[ignis]

I stumbled on this great concept [if it works] and rather than describe it, the link is http://kilk.com/pond/

Yes looks good...

My only question is and always has been if you have a swimming pool, and do as per link, you could never convert back to swimming pool, if you needed to sell your house in years to come, which would be a selling point ? own swimming Pool, or Big fish pond.

The other fear here is how strong is the swimming pool made, all the extra tons of stone in it will it start to sink

The gravity type filter as shown in the link works very well

[Naam]

The croc meat in makro is under the 'malai' brand that has a variety of exotic meats....wild boar, deer, croc, etc. in the frozen section. Can't say if it is Thai croc, but will look next time.

did you check the link I provided for a vege-bio filter and pool to pond makeover?? would appreciate feedback on that method of filtration.

could not find any link

[richardjm65]

Jaideeguy, you mentioned the possibility of "running your well dry" if you had to do a full water change. This nudged my memory - is your well a shallow well or a deep well?

We tried turtles years ago and all went OK until we ran the well dry. Then had a deep well drilled and got lovely sparkly clean water. Did some water change and the following day the water was black and stank. More changes - same result. Eventually found out from the BBC that deep well water is effectively dead and therefore with no life, the biological chain effect with or without a filter just did not work.

There is a bio-chem which helped but I cannot remember the name. Though this has nothing to do with koi, it is a possibility. We also found that water hyacinth helped to keep the pond water good. (As an aside, feed your chickens on the excess water hyacinth, they like it and you get really good eggs).

[jaideeguy]

Naam, the link is both here http://kilk.com/pond/

and post #36. I clicked on it and it went to "Erik’s Swimming Pool to Pond Conversion"

google it if the link doesn't work and give me your 2thb on it.

[Naam]

Naam, the link is both here http://kilk.com/pond/

i am quite impressed by his planning as well as the execution of the work! however i detected some unexplainable "discrepancies":

-liner for pond and filter 65 sqf? judging from the picture the surface area is ~350 sqf and taking the different levels into consideration i estimate a minimum of 500 sqf liner material, filter not included.

-based on the capacity the pump seems to draw about 275-300 watts, the pumpsize in the picture indicates a bigger pump. the rated capacity would pump 2.5 times the total pond volume assuming 24 hours pumping time (seems fair).

the big caveat though is the algae generating sun in Thailand which cannot be compared with the sun in Portland, Oregon, id est your biofilter's dimensions should be a multiple and because of that the pump capacity should be much higher taking the volume of your pool into consideration which (i think) is much bigger than the 11,000 gallons of Erik's pond.

i'm afraid that is all the input i am able to provide.

[jaideeguy]

I noticed a few discrepancies as well, but the principal seems to make sense in it's simplicity. Also wonder how it would work in our very tropical envoirnment.

Here is another link that says that winter is the down time for his design, [plant die off] using water hycenth which does extremely well here and makes for great mulch if it does too well...

http://www.creativelanddesignmd.com/index.html

Before I go ripping up my pool, i will do a small scale pond using aquarium pump and a cement ring with smaller fish.

[WatersEdge]

I didn't read the entire thread...

will admit in advance that I missed some things mentioned.

If the fish show signs of insufficient oxygen,

then that's the problem

so stick with it.

Airstones in the bottom of the pool will do the trick.

If the fish show further signs of insufficient oxygen,

then get more oxygen in.

Flowing / Splashing water does not absorb as much oxygen as you may assume.

It's dry season, so how about watering the yard from the pool,

and replace it with fresh as required.

Fish aren't going to object to clean water

If you have significant algae population, green water,

then they will produce a lot of oxygen in direct sunlight,

but consume oxygen in the water during night hours.

You will find that the oxygen depletion is worst just before sunlight shines again,

because all night both fish and algae have been using available oxygen.

Recently learned that gently churning deep water to the surface during the daytime

serves to store oxygen produced by the algae near the surface in the entire body of water,

providing a larger oxygen content at all depths to carry the fish through the night.

Switching to what the algae like, the CO2 and nutrients in the deep water is their food.

Your idea of drawing water from the very bottom is perfect,

take the dirtiest deepest water out first.

Tab Tim's ideal water temperature is 32C,

so they will seldom be too hot,

except in a shallow pool.

Have no knowledge of Koi, but read here that they are even more particular than Tab Tim.

If you can sell Pla Nin Black Tilapia just as well as Tab Tim Orange Tilapia,

they are much more resilient in poor conditions and vigorous in their feeding.

I have naturally breeding Pla Nin in a pond that has killed Catfish,

supposing they are now selectively bred to endure hardship.

Pla Nin are hard to kill when they are small, dying easier as they reach hand size.

I once had a problem with Tab Tim in a huge new concrete tank.

While the Catfish Pla Sawai in the same tank did just fine.

Can't tell you the chemistry,

but here's a sad conclusion that 50,000 Tab Tim unanimously didn't like new concrete.

Is your swimming pool relatively new?

Are there residual pool chemicals at play here?

If by chance you earlier used Copper Sulfate CuSO4 as your pool disinfectant,

it's a rather effective fish killer, and the effect even in small amounts sticks around,

as opposed to Calcium Hypochlorite Ca(OCl)2 which depletes very quickly

especially as it contacts organic materials.

Lest I ramble, will sign out.

[pwm]

Naam, the link is both here http://kilk.com/pond/

i am quite impressed by his planning as well as the execution of the work! however i detected some unexplainable "discrepancies":

-liner for pond and filter 65 sqf? judging from the picture the surface area is ~350 sqf and taking the different levels into consideration i estimate a minimum of 500 sqf liner material, filter not included.

FWIW, he gives the pond liner dimensions as 30' x 34' (1020sqf). I think you're looking at his materials list, and I think the .65 figure he quotes there must be $0.65/sqf (which works out somewhere close, anyway).

Of course, I could just be making an ass out of you and me, as they say...

--

Regards,

Pat.

[jaideeguy]

The pool is well seasoned.....4+yrs now and tile, so couldn't be cement leaching and the only chems I have added is cholorine. It seems to me that it is simply lack of oxygen and will slowly add well water while watering my garden with bottom water using a submersable pump. Going out tomorrow and raid the klongs for water hycenth and see if that helps....fish population is down so much from the die off that the plants won't be bothered with the few survivors and may help clear the water.

Never used coper sulfate.

[Naam]

The pool is well seasoned.....4+yrs now and tile, so couldn't be cement leaching and the only chems I have added is cholorine. It seems to me that it is simply lack of oxygen and will slowly add well water while watering my garden with bottom water using a submersable pump. Going out tomorrow and raid the klongs for water hycenth and see if that helps....fish population is down so much from the die off that the plants won't be bothered with the few survivors and may help clear the water.

Never used coper sulfate.

i did. after that my kois were swimming belly-up. the algae eaters (don't know their name) survived

[sunsamourai]

My only question is and always has been if you have a swimming pool, and do as per link, you could never convert back to swimming pool, if you needed to sell your house in years to come, which would be a selling point ? own swimming Pool, or Big fish pond.

convert it to a swimming pond, also known as natural pools

[Ricardo]

got my tabtim from neighbors, but they can [sometimes] be had at the rhom chok [sp?] market behind the rimping on 2nd ring road and maejo rd. small vendor on the maejo outside of mkt.

Thanks, will have a look.  Yesterday we were up at the royal project at Huay Lan reservoir, SE of San Kamphaeng.  They breed all sorts of fish there, but wouldn't let us have any     Told the wife they supply them to somewhere near Mae Jo university, so we'll search around there, & if no luck call in at rhom chok on the way home.

We live a couple of km behind Mae-Jo University, and there's a small fish-supply business near to us, which may be the one they're talking about ? Directions as follows ...

Driving northwards through Mae-Jo, on the main road (route 1001) C.M.-Phrao, after you pass under the 2nd-footbridge (with the day-market on the left), take the next U-turn. This brings you back to the footbridge, turn off the main-road left 20m after the footbridge, into a small soi which runs between the University boundary-wall and the fish-ponds where they teach fish-farming.

After 400m the soi turns right, another 100m brings you to the back-gate to the University, turn left here and travel about 800m eastwards, until you come to a 4m-wide irrigation-canal. Turn right just before the canal, along its bank, until you come 100m to a concrete-bridge, which carries the canal & road over a small stream in a gully.

Left immediately over the bridge and, on the other side of the canal, you find the entrance to the fish farm, turn & park in the shade at their buildings 40m inside the entrance.

Now the snag, last time I cycled past here 2 weeks ago, the canal-side road & bridge were being upgraded/rebuilt ! Nothing is ever simple, is it ? ! And I don't know whether you can still cross the bridge.

If not, you will need to loop around about 1km to get back to the fish-farm from the east. Back where you first reached the canal & turned right along its bank, cross the canal (2-lane bridge) and (after 500m) take the first tarmac soi right, follow that twisty-road along turning first-right (200m) before the riding-stables and right again (after 250m) which will then bring you down a single-track made-up road to the fish-farm.

Phew !

We normally expect to pay 1-3 Baht per-fingerling, depending on species/size.

[thaipod]

On the subject of fish . Can anyone tell me of names of species of edible fish that is easy to take care of .

I have a small pond approx 5 m x 4 m which I want to keep good eating fish for the table .

I have a water gate that lets fresh water from a small klong off the Chaophra as the tide rises and falls feeds water canals and the pond.

[Crossy]

On the subject of fish . Can anyone tell me of names of species of edible fish that is easy to take care of .

I have a small pond approx 5 m x 4 m which I want to keep good eating fish for the table .

I have a water gate that lets fresh water from a small klong off the Chaophra as the tide rises and falls feeds water canals and the pond.

Pla nin (Tilapia) are easy to raise, fast growing and delicious (and they breed like rabbits)

Trouble is, ours have become pets, she who must be obeyed hand feeds them (eating fish come from Tesco).

[Ricardo]

got my tabtim from neighbors, but they can [sometimes] be had at the rhom chok [sp?] market behind the rimping on 2nd ring road and maejo rd. small vendor on the maejo outside of mkt.

Thanks, will have a look.  Yesterday we were up at the royal project at Huay Lan reservoir, SE of San Kamphaeng.  They breed all sorts of fish there, but wouldn't let us have any     Told the wife they supply them to somewhere near Mae Jo university, so we'll search around there, & if no luck call in at rhom chok on the way home.

We live a couple of km behind Mae-Jo University, and there's a small fish-supply business near to us, which may be the one they're talking about ? Directions as follows ...

Driving northwards through Mae-Jo, on the main road (route 1001) C.M.-Phrao, after you pass under the 2nd-footbridge (with the day-market on the left), take the next U-turn. This brings you back to the footbridge, turn off the main-road left 20m after the footbridge, into a small soi which runs between the University boundary-wall and the fish-ponds where they teach fish-farming.

After 400m the soi turns right, another 100m brings you to the back-gate to the University, turn left here and travel about 800m eastwards, until you come to a 4m-wide irrigation-canal. Turn right just before the canal, along its bank, until you come 100m to a concrete-bridge, which carries the canal & road over a small stream in a gully.

Left immediately over the bridge and, on the other side of the canal, you find the entrance to the fish farm, turn & park in the shade at their buildings 40m inside the entrance.

Now the snag, last time I cycled past here 2 weeks ago, the canal-side road & bridge were being upgraded/rebuilt ! Nothing is ever simple, is it ? ! And I don't know whether you can still cross the bridge.

If not, you will need to loop around about 1km to get back to the fish-farm from the east. Back where you first reached the canal & turned right along its bank, cross the canal (2-lane bridge) and (after 500m) take the first tarmac soi right, follow that twisty-road along turning first-right (200m) before the riding-stables and right again (after 250m) which will then bring you down a single-track made-up road to the fish-farm.

Phew !

We normally expect to pay 1-3 Baht per-fingerling, depending on species/size.

UPDATE : The canal-side bridge has now been rebuilt, and re-opened this morning, so disregard the "Now the snag" section above.