WillArzonia Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 What I'm more upset about is all these places that think they can increase my charges 3% just because I use an international credit card. I can't count the amount of times I've completely turned down a $3000 purchase on my business credit cards because they want to add about $100 to the bill. I usually threaten to get their merchant accounts shut down with the credit processor (I have good business relations with Visa, Mastercard and AMEX). Some of them just look at me like... what are you talking about? "It's illegal to do that? But they charge us to process payments this way... It can't be illegal!" The service charge idea for me is fine, though. It's just like another tax, and usually they'll split it through to the staff, so no problems there. In most instances its written in small writing on the bottom of the menu. Have some class, stop biotching, and give them 20 baht for your 200 baht tab... what is that? 0.70 USD. i always thought they charged 3% extra on all credit cards transactions,whether international or not, as its a merchant charge, i could be wrong thou It is on ANY credit card -- local or international -- and it is NOT illegal for most small businesses -- if you have such good relations with VISA and the others, you would think they would tell you the truth -- small businesses are PERMITTED to add a service charge to cover the 2.5 to 4% charge the card companies charge them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.s Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 And on the other hand tipping leads the staff just to annoy the customers by begging the tips in means of being in your face all the time asking "everything ok", "do you need anything else", "are you sure everything ok", "how about something more to drink", "if everything is ok? enjoy your meal"...And this is exactly what happened to me during dinner just this wednesday in "farangland" with tipping culture. And it was repeated twice during the meal. Now nothing more annoying when you are trying to enjoy your food and have a conversation with your friend. They maybe think this justifies their 25% expected tips but i just call it bad service. Being polite and providing good service (when it is required or asked for) is not about pestering your customers to death. Edit: needless to say, i didn't leave any tip... But sadly this is a way of life in Thailand. I have learned to love. It saves me <deleted> fortunes!!! WHen I go to the Mall and they come scurrying over to stand next to me for NO FRICKIN" PURPOSE!!! Its easier for me to just walk away and not shop. I love it. I have seriously been put of countless 4 figure purchases by this need they have to stand on top of you. I HATE it! Seriously makes me want to explode. Critical difference here is most in the service industry don't reflect on their experience and adapt. For example. if you rush up to a customer three times and every time he changes from relaxed browser to guided missile away from you, in the west you would not crowd that customer. But here, you just smile and look for the next person to smother. Guess it must fall under that massive umbrella of "THai CUlture". What the ***k ever... four figure purchases, wooohoooo! numbers in excess of 1000 Baht!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navalator Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 In the international chain managed hotels the service charge will be calculated and divided equally between all the staff (including back of house) at the end of the month. How do you know this? Your theory is not consistent with what staff at some of the international hotels report. As the world financial situation worsened, the service charges disappeared from the staff envelopes. At least one very famous old hotel, located on the river in Bangkok, now rakes off 10% of the acculmulated 10% patron service charges for their own "adminsitrative costs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 What I'm more upset about is all these places that think they can increase my charges 3% just because I use an international credit card. I can't count the amount of times I've completely turned down a $3000 purchase on my business credit cards because they want to add about $100 to the bill. I usually threaten to get their merchant accounts shut down with the credit processor (I have good business relations with Visa, Mastercard and AMEX). Some of them just look at me like... what are you talking about? "It's illegal to do that? But they charge us to process payments this way... It can't be illegal!" The service charge idea for me is fine, though. It's just like another tax, and usually they'll split it through to the staff, so no problems there. In most instances its written in small writing on the bottom of the menu. Have some class, stop biotching, and give them 20 baht for your 200 baht tab... what is that? 0.70 USD. i always thought they charged 3% extra on all credit cards transactions,whether international or not, as its a merchant charge, i could be wrong thou It is on ANY credit card -- local or international -- and it is NOT illegal for most small businesses -- if you have such good relations with VISA and the others, you would think they would tell you the truth -- small businesses are PERMITTED to add a service charge to cover the 2.5 to 4% charge the card companies charge them. Good post WillArzonia...... glad to see someone point that out to mr big spender..... Just because it may be done that way in your home country, does not mean that is is legal or illegal in other places in the world...or improper I can remember the days when I ran around with a wallet full of gold, platinum cards and played the role.....only to find out today, living here,,,,,, I really can get by on 2..... and have never had a problem.... another thing ...... when living in Florida some years back there was a standing joke in snow bird country..." Do you know the difference between a canoe and a Canadian??? " Answer was...... a canoe will tip ..... Also in reading this post..... I don't know why I get the feeling that those bitching the loudest and longest about the tip added, in all probability are those that wouldn't leave any tip in any event..... good service or bad... If anyone feels that strongly about the tip and service being added,,,,, then simply get up and walk out before eating or ordering or whatever....... the business owner is not stupid...;.. if enough do walk out because of this I am sure the charge will soon be removed ...... just don't you become one to just bitch about it because you wouldn't have left a tip anyhow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooninthai Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I actually like the places who jam on the 10% service charge, I dont feel in anyway obliged to leave a tip !! That is what it is all about! It's easier for accounting, to sort out the "Tip" the extra income for the staff, which it is meant for! It is an incentive raising concept, the more attentive staff is, the better the customer feels and the more he may feel to spend - so 10% are coming as extra-Income" into the paycheck. If "service charge is acounted for and shows on the bill don't tip! But that means we are forced to tip even when the service is slow, the food is bad and the people working at the establishment are lazy, incompetent, surly or not up to the job in general. Surely the whole idea of a tip is to reward good service??? I agree it is an extra 10% on top of your bill and is in many ways a misrepresentation of the actual cost of the product / service being offered. Added to that, how do we know the tip is divided fairly? Many establishments do not divide gratuities evenly. The manager gets a higher cut, the Maitre D (spelling LOL) a higher cut than those on the ground doing the actual work and that is grossly unfair. If I have a friendly and helpful member of staff who serves me they will get a tip. If the job is not done properly they will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surayu Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 the business owner is not stupid...;.. if enough do walk out because of this I am sure the charge will soon be removed ...... just don't you become one to just bitch about it because you wouldn't have left a tip anyhow.... ..."if enough do walk out" chances are that the 10% will be changed in a 20%, 30%, etc... so the genius can earn back for all the losses he had.....and he's likely to continue untill an irreversible closing time finally arrives, that's how "logic" works here and your assumption about people's tips is not right either..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 the business owner is not stupid...;.. if enough do walk out because of this I am sure the charge will soon be removed ...... just don't you become one to just bitch about it because you wouldn't have left a tip anyhow.... ..."if enough do walk out" chances are that the 10% will be changed in a 20%, 30%, etc... so the genius can earn back for all the losses he had.....and he's likely to continue untill an irreversible closing time finally arrives, that's how "logic" works here and your assumption about people's tips is not right either..... sez you You have the right to your opinion and I accept that as your opinion...... however I disagree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foggy Bottom Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 the business owner is not stupid...;.. if enough do walk out because of this I am sure the charge will soon be removed ...... just don't you become one to just bitch about it because you wouldn't have left a tip anyhow.... ..."if enough do walk out" chances are that the 10% will be changed in a 20%, 30%, etc... so the genius can earn back for all the losses he had.....and he's likely to continue untill an irreversible closing time finally arrives, that's how "logic" works here and your assumption about people's tips is not right either..... sez you You have the right to your opinion and I accept that as your opinion...... however I disagree... Gonzo - in my experience, Surayu is right regarding "Thai Geniuses" increasing the charge due to a fall in trade - and it's not just in restaurants over the service charge ... think about how many times it's stated in these forums about other areas of business in Thailand - Phuket Tuk Tuks increasing the minimum fare to 250 Baht - Thai Air Domestic advertising 20%discounts but only giving them to Thais who are shareholders, politicians, or in uniform - Hotels (especially right after the tsunami) advertising half price, but billing the standard tariff on theboard in reception - house landlords increasing the advertised rent because they've had no tenant for too long (rather than fixing up the property to meet the price asked) - property developers with entire moobaans of empty units jacking the price each year the houses go unsold (same with shop house builders on main highways The list just goes on and on - here the normal western perception of supply and demand controlling prices does not apply. Here it is "how much do I want for it today, and can I be ar$ed to make an effort to deserve that price" which controls how much you're asked to pay. Ever notice when you go for a tuk tuk - the guy half asleep on his back seat always asks for more than the guy reading a newspaper on his front seat? Foggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 the business owner is not stupid...;.. if enough do walk out because of this I am sure the charge will soon be removed ...... just don't you become one to just bitch about it because you wouldn't have left a tip anyhow.... ..."if enough do walk out" chances are that the 10% will be changed in a 20%, 30%, etc... so the genius can earn back for all the losses he had.....and he's likely to continue untill an irreversible closing time finally arrives, that's how "logic" works here and your assumption about people's tips is not right either..... sez you You have the right to your opinion and I accept that as your opinion...... however I disagree... Gonzo - in my experience, Surayu is right regarding "Thai Geniuses" increasing the charge due to a fall in trade - and it's not just in restaurants over the service charge ... think about how many times it's stated in these forums about other areas of business in Thailand - Phuket Tuk Tuks increasing the minimum fare to 250 Baht - Thai Air Domestic advertising 20%discounts but only giving them to Thais who are shareholders, politicians, or in uniform - Hotels (especially right after the tsunami) advertising half price, but billing the standard tariff on theboard in reception - house landlords increasing the advertised rent because they've had no tenant for too long (rather than fixing up the property to meet the price asked) - property developers with entire moobaans of empty units jacking the price each year the houses go unsold (same with shop house builders on main highways The list just goes on and on - here the normal western perception of supply and demand controlling prices does not apply. Here it is "how much do I want for it today, and can I be ar$ed to make an effort to deserve that price" which controls how much you're asked to pay. Ever notice when you go for a tuk tuk - the guy half asleep on his back seat always asks for more than the guy reading a newspaper on his front seat? Foggy Foggy, first let me say I greatly appreciate the way you worded your post..... a most refreshing disagreement. Now let me say this...... I am sure you have been here for some time and in my case its now about 23 years and now going on 14 years in active business. Yes there is some truth to what you say as to the reaction of the Thai business model... but I say this, that they are the exception not the rule..... yes it does happen but it is not the norm... Now in your list of examples above, with all honesty on your part, how many are of your own experience and how many have come from falang street/bar gossip or somewhere the like. Tuk tuks always try and increase the price, until you are known by them.... I would guess that would be S O P in any bartering society I cannot answer first hand re the Thai Airways example, nor the Phuket hotels post tsunami, but I can say that I have had customers/guests/friends tell me about the huge huge discounts that they got or room rentals in Phuket, post tsunami. Here on TV, for the most part, the posters are expressing what they FEEl to be the various cases, vs. what they actually and factually know, so perhaps that should be taken with a grain of salt. Real Estate and condo pricing , yes, I have seen happen just what you post ,..... can't sell this year for 1M, next year raise it to 1.25m as you now have more invested in the condo..... but in reality they are the exception not the rule. ... but we are getting a bit off topic and let me again say thank you for a most pleasant disagreement Tipping in my opinion, is not, nor should be mandatory. It should be voluntary and left up to the customers personal decision. I do feel that it is considered to be good form and proper to give a tip in the service was good and acceptable. My personal opinion that it is not in good form to NOT leave a tip if the service was acceptable..... if this is a repeat customer, then there is no doubt that they shall become known as a cheap charlie and future service will be somewhat on the colder side...... I don't say it is right nor do I say it is wrong...... just that this is the way the industry has evolved... Two wrongs do not make a right, but two rights will surely make a wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I wouldn't really mind that much if the SERVICE STAFF was getting the "service Charge" but they are not, this is just a way for management to increase prices I don't care who's getting it , I just care to minimize the amount leaving my wallet. So unless the price including the 10% surcharge is still convenient for what they sell , they are not going to see me anymore. That's my answer as well and I know for a fact that it has worked against them in at least one restaurant in Pattaya who previously added 10% but now advertise outside that they do not add a service charge. Too late for me I'm afraid, they caught me once and lost my business forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhgz Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 "Anyone Else Frustrated By This "service Charge" Concept In Thailand?..." Why would you be frustrated by a mere "concept". "Hey, I'm frustrated by the concept of murder. Dang, I'm really frustrated by the concept of taxation". I'm not frustrated by the concept. Too, I am not annoyed by them adding the service charge. Regardless, sometime in 2010, the service charge and VAT will be reflected in the price. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmax Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 robins nest in pattaya do it , i used to go there all the time not really looking at my bill as the food is very good but one day i noticed they had a service charge, i havent been back since, bloody well stupid in my opinion and they just lost a costumer who ate there every day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) QUOTE (mca @ 2010-02-27 11:06:13) * In the international chain managed hotels the service charge will be calculated and divided equally between all the staff (including back of house) at the end of the month. How do you know this? Your theory is not consistent with what staff at some of the international hotels report. As the world financial situation worsened, the service charges disappeared from the staff envelopes. At least one very famous old hotel, located on the river in Bangkok, now rakes off 10% of the acculmulated 10% patron service charges for their own "adminsitrative costs". Because the reason I came to LOS was as a management trainee in one of those properties and the group after that I worked for operated the same. The 2 chains I mentioned ( they're both in the top 5 chains in the world with a plethora of properties in Thailand and i still keep my ear in) definitely abide by the rules of their parent companies which means that the service charge goes to the staff from the GM down to the gardeners. If the owners of the hotel decided they were going to stick the service charge (or a percentage of it) in their pockets then they'd be in breach of their contract with the management company and the management company would in an extreme situation withdraw their management of the hotel. International chains are very concerned about their image. In fact quite a number of the rank and file don't change their jobs because of the salary which tends to be much of a muchness between properties. They change because of the service charge. One very top end serviced apartment I know of in Bangkok pays the average salary for room attendants of around 6-7k baht a month but the service charge is brings their money up to about 20k a month. Edited February 28, 2010 by mca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdechgan Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Tipping wasn't the norm in Thailand. Just the past couple of years places like Fuji, Oishi, etc. are charging 10% service charge and on top of that 7% VAT. Before VAT was already included on the price of food. Fuji now even charges 10 baht for wasabi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Because the reason I came to LOS was as a management trainee in one of those properties and the group after that I worked for operated the same. The 2 chains I mentioned ( they're both in the top 5 chains in the world with a plethora of properties in Thailand and i still keep my ear in) definitely abide by the rules of their parent companies which means that the service charge goes to the staff from the GM down to the gardeners. That's great that 2 hotel chains "let" their employees keep the service charge that should be theirs anyway, but there are literally thousands of restaurants and hotels that pocket it at the expense of their almost impoverished employees. Edited February 28, 2010 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) They don't " let " them keep the service charge that should be theirs anyway. It's part of the legally binding contract drawn up between the management company and the hotel owners as a benefit for the employees along with such things as medical insurance, subsidized canteen, annual bonus etc. As mentioned I was referring to internationally managed properties. Of course a local chain or stand alone hotel may well stick it in their pockets. An internationally managed hotel would have the same group of regulations be it in Bangkok or Bogota. Edited February 28, 2010 by mca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsExpat2B Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I don't mind paying service charge if the service is good but I do get annoyed when I am asked AGAIN for tip when paying by credit card or when there is a space left for tip when you sign the slip. I was in San Francisco in December and some restaurants added another 3%-5% heath care surcharges on top of the usual (service charges, state tax, vat etc) . <deleted>?? It's not a big amount but I thought it's the duty of the employers to pay that and not customer's??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbalEd Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I wouldn't really mind that much if the SERVICE STAFF was getting the "service Charge" but they are not, this is just a way for management to increase prices How do you know the service staff is not getting the service-charge money? You don't. While no one can know for every single hotel, restaurant, etc. .... I know for a fact that many do indeed pass this service-charge money on to the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I know for a fact that many, many (my guess is most) do NOT. Other places use it to replace broken dishes and mistaken orders - and such - that should be the restaurant owners responsiblility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 No issues here. Just simply stop going to places where you're not happy with the pricing, whatever they call it. If you're okay with missing out with a whole boatload of mainstream places, more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanForbes Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I actually like the places who jam on the 10% service charge, I dont feel in anyway obliged to leave a tip !! If it is NOT a Thai national policy to add 10% service charge then I'd have to agree with this post... just don't bother leaving a tip. I always thought a tip was for good service by whomever was serving you... and not the company or restaurant. Our Canadian political scammers (politicians) brought out a "Goods and Services" tax many years ago to tack onto the provincial sales tax. Now they've amalgamated both taxes together to hide the increase in taxing on everything. That money goes straight into the pockets of the politicians... who can then justify an increase in their own personal salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanForbes Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 No issues here.Just simply stop going to places where you're not happy with the pricing, whatever they call it. If you're okay with missing out with a whole boatload of mainstream places, more power to you. Good point, Heng. I do just that... walk away. In Pattaya there are hundreds of places to eat, but most are empty. Then, there are the busy places where tables are filled the moment someone leaves. The reason being is the busy places offer good food at a reasonable price... by Thai standards. Bars in Nana and Soi Cowboy seem to have lost the concept of value for the price. When they lose customers they RAISE the prices... and consequently lose more customers. Then, because there are no customers the girls leave which leads to less or no customers at all. It got so bad that I haven't been there in at least 5 years. According to the Asian Bugle (on line bar news) this crazy Thai concept hasn't changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kikoman Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 That is a common practice at the high end hotels and restaurants, also many mid priced restaurants ,but it is on the menu, 15% service charge added on for service in the U.S.! That is a practice not unique to Thailand. Cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt1591 Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 How do you know the service staff is not getting the service-charge money? You don't. While no one can know for every single hotel, restaurant, etc. .... I know for a fact that many do indeed pass this service-charge money on to the staff. Talking with at least a dozen staff and management people, at different restaurants, The answer has always been the same: Restaurant staff and/or management don't get any of it. It is an additional charge, to be paid by the business, to the gubment,... another tax. That's why you see it at established eateries, where booking is a practice, not so much at mom-n-pop shops.. I can't speak for Thai hotels, but internationally, hotel taxes - special taxes (not gratuities) levied on accommodations - are quite common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkk_mike Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 If there's a service charge, I assume that I don't have to tip (or leave a gratuity if you prefer). It's supposed to be passed to the staff. If it's not - the staff should leave and go to a place where there isn't a service charge (so they get tips), or one where the charge is shared amongst the staff... The main reason it's done in tourist areas is because different countries tip differently. In the UK 10% is normal (or zero when there's a service charge). In the US the waiters will get antsy if it's less than 15% (mainly because this is the amount the IRS assumes they get - and taxes them on - so they're paying tax on the 15% even if you leave 10%.) Then there's Japanese who are used to NOT tipping, at least for meals, and Thais who will often just leave the coins from the change (+ a 20 baht). One thing I would say. If the serving staff tell you that the service charge isn't going to them, ask to speak to the manager, and make a point of NOT paying the service charge (but if the service has been good - tipping at least that amount to the waiter), and make a point of telling the manager that he's a lying thieving prick in a very loud voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2muchcoffee Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 ...and make a point of telling the manager that he's a lying thieving prick in a very loud voice. Sage advice. Everyone should try this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt1591 Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer108 Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 OP, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. As kikoman noted, it's common practice in many countries around the world. Am guessing you hail from the USA, where it's less common (although plenty of restaurants there also follow that custom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw25rw Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Not just a Thai thing. A lot of restaurants in the UK do this as well. It's how they pay the staff's salary. They could just make the food dearer but for some reason they itemise it. Should not be confuse with tipping which is a different concept. tp not tip because you paid service charge is just being tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balo Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I have never seen a service charge in Thailand! I must be going to the wrong places. Or maybe It's because I never pay 500 baht for a meal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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