Residency Permit Without Tax Returns. Possible?

[bangkokbanks]

I am writing to any knowledgeable person with regard to the residency permit. This last year, I spent considerable time and money preparing for my application for Thai residency. I was confident that the Immigration department would consider me; thinking my past 20 years in working with Thai companies - the excellent connections, and other contributions; not to mention my 12 years of marriage to a Thai and two children would be more than enough.

Wrong!

Imagine my disapointment and frustration when upon submitting my application the immigration officer would not even accept my application. The reason being that on my tax return it showed dividends and consultant payments to me from one of my investments here. A company I am on the board but do not have a work permit. My lawyer here, someone I have known a number of years informed me long ago there is no need for a work permit to receive a consultant fee or end of year dividends. Why should I doubt him, and to avoid the formality of obtaining a work permit some 10 years ago to the present day was unecessary (at least that is what I thought).

My other company here, I am paid a salary, with a work permit; all is fine there. But on my single tax form submitted to the revenue department, it shows the gross amount I am paid from both companies. I was rejected simply because I was paid without a work permit despite my pleading that (I thought) under Thai law, a work permit is not needed. So if guest speakers that come to Thailand to get a guest speaker fee, or a company hires a consultant for a special purpose; I assume they too need a work permit? I am so confused.

Thinking that now I have to wait another three years [because to submit one has to have three years past tax returns], I am wondering if anyone knows if I can simply submit without showing tax returns. The pay in both companies is not significant enough for me, these companies are invesments. If I do not take a salary or pay; and therefore do not have a tax return or the need for a work permit; can I submit for residency. I can prove I have sufficient funds transfered from oversees as far as my income. I also have had a Thai Wife Visa for the past 5 years.

Any advise is much appreciated.

[KamnanT]

Unfortunately, the answer is no. A minimum of 3 years of unbroken residence on a Non-Immigrant visa (e.g. initial visa plus extensions of stay totaling three years before the date of application) plus 3 years of tax returns is a principle requirement under the "Business/Employment" category.

Your lawyer was correct about the dividends - there is no requirement to have a work permit to receive dividends from a Thai company - but he was wrong about the consultant's fees. And dividends alone will not be sufficient to support an application for permanent residence.

[bangkokbanks]

Unfortunately, the answer is no. A minimum of 3 years of unbroken residence on a Non-Immigrant visa (e.g. initial visa plus extensions of stay totaling three years before the date of application) plus 3 years of tax returns is a principle requirement under the "Business/Employment" category.

Your lawyer was correct about the dividends - there is no requirement to have a work permit to receive dividends from a Thai company - but he was wrong about the consultant's fees. And dividends alone will not be sufficient to support an application for permanent residence.

Thank you for that advise. Actually I am or was applying under the Thai Wife not business catagory. I would like to know if that's possible to apply with just that, only the Thai wife. If possible, then I would not have to report my business here. Is that possible? My banks records prove substantial income value brought here monthly, but it seemed the Immigration officer could care less. Which I always thought the Government welcomed people with a certian means of income. I guess not.

If what you say it true fact above, I will have to completely drop the consultant fee, for the next three years. My income is low at both companies, which is rather a joke - if you compare what I bring in to live on. After five consistant years one would think the government would take that into consideration. The frustration mounts as I scratch my head tyring to figure a way round this. My only alternative is to have to wait another three years. Can you see any way based on the information I gave you? And thanks.

[KamnanT]

My understanding is that even under the "Family" category, they need to see proof of local employment income and (more importantly) income taxes paid for a period of three years. The independently wealthy need not apply, it would appear.

I assume that the consultant's fees were paid to you because you rendered some service to the company - that requires a work permit. Even uncompensated work requires a work permit (e.g. being a director of a company with bank signatory powers requires a work permit, even if no compensation is received).

Edited March 3, 2010 by KamnanT

[Time Traveller]

The key to accepting your application is the work permit. There has been some confusing posts in Thaivisa that talk about 3 yrs of paid tax returns as being the important criteria. This is only acceptable if you've been employed with a Thai company ie. currently holding a work permit, in which case it's naturally assumed you would have paid taxes.

So the 3yrs of tax returns without a work permit, such as income from investments, is meaningless. However, I've heard that in application for PR in the investment category for investments greater than 40m bt, that the rules can bend a little. If this is you than I would suggest speaking with a lawyer or even the people at the immigration. Even the PR holder can own land for residential purposes up to 1 rai with min. investment of 40m bt within thailand.

[bangkokbanks]

Thank you to you both for your valuable information. I believe in my case, another three year wait is inevitable. I will have to figure another way around these consultant fees. That's the problem, company no. 1 is above board, work permit, salary paid, taxes paid. Co. no. 2 is on the board but no signature powers, consultant fees, taxes paid, but no work permit. Odd how the revenue dept. has no problem with the work permit issue. That's why I thought I was in the green with this one. I also asked if there was a way to separate out the two companies, submit two tax returns - then when it came time again to submit for PR, I could only show the one company. The answer was a firm no.

I appreciate your advise above. It should also be stated, the Thai wife visa has at the very least been rather convenient. Much more than the non im. Preparing the paper work is a snap. The PR does not offer much more accept (from my understanding), one does not have to submit each year and no more 90 day. Yes, that's a lot. But too, I am amazed that even PR persons have to apply for a re-entry permit. A lot of expense and hassle to go through for not much extra benefit, assuming one has a Thai wife.

[Time Traveller]

I agree, there is not a lot of benefit in PR, unless you want to become a citizen in the very distant future. Even doing the annoying yearly extensions for the next 40yrs still is cheaper than the cost of PR. BTW, the revenue dept don't really care whether you have work permit or not. They're only interested in getting their money. In fact, other people have said that they are not in contact with the Labor dept.

[bangkokbanks]

I agree, there is not a lot of benefit in PR, unless you want to become a citizen in the very distant future. Even doing the annoying yearly extensions for the next 40yrs still is cheaper than the cost of PR. BTW, the revenue dept don't really care whether you have work permit or not. They're only interested in getting their money. In fact, other people have said that they are not in contact with the Labor dept.

Well that too has entered my mind, the idea of one day applying for Citizenship. My business partner here thinks there is no reason to become a citizen, he's been a resident for 18 years and lived in Thailand for 25 or so years. I realize everyone thinks differently about this issue. In my friends case, I see no reason why he would not want to be a citizen, his Thai is flawless and contact wise - one could not do better. But still residency is enough for him. For me, I went through the whole prep process for the PR, the whole time asking myself, "what the heck am I doing this for?" But after studying Thai for the last 4 years, and of course that will continue on and seeing that I have no interest in moving back to California, Thailand feels as much home to me as anyplace I have ever lived. Thus I feel justified at least to apply for residency. But to me, I see no logic in how they qualify a resident applicant, and cannot understand why an applicant must hold a job even if that job pays so little. I take the minimum salary just to hold the work permit. I would hope the immigration department would at least look at the whole picture and not some technicality. After all, I am contributing greatly to the economy, if I pull out, some 16 people will loose their jobs - my personal money I bring here will no longer be put into the local economy as well. Strange though when I applied, the immigration officer was not interested in my bank records or the history and data I prepared regarding the two companies. Instead, all she wanted to see was that measly little 50,000 baht per month and three years past tax returns. I am at a loss for understanding the logic.

[scorecard]

My understanding is that even under the "Family" category, they need to see proof of local employment income and (more importantly) income taxes paid for a period of three years. The independently wealthy need not apply, it would appear.

I assume that the consultant's fees were paid to you because you rendered some service to the company - that requires a work permit. Even uncompensated work requires a work permit (e.g. being a director of a company with bank signatory powers requires a work permit, even if no compensation is received).

I got PR more than a decade ago. The agent I used and the Immigration officer (who spoke fluent English) explained that an application for PR looks primarily at YOU. Are YOU an 'upstanding' person.

They went on to explain that factors like: tax returns, education, your work actully conributing to the development of Thailand, proof that you can support yourself, no criminal record etc., are the primary considerations, and Thai wife and/or children is a secondary consideration.

When I applied they would not accept applications unless the person had been in Thailand for at least eight years and I had to provide documents to prove I had a work permit for all of that eight or so years, plus Thai tax returns for all of that time.

One of the copies of the tax returns (in about the middle of the eight year period) was not clear. I had to pay my old employer to get a staff member to search through mountains of old records to find the original and make a new copy. Luckily they found it. Immigration made it clear that they would not consider my application without a better copy.

Good luck.

[scorecard]

I agree, there is not a lot of benefit in PR, unless you want to become a citizen in the very distant future. Even doing the annoying yearly extensions for the next 40yrs still is cheaper than the cost of PR. BTW, the revenue dept don't really care whether you have work permit or not. They're only interested in getting their money. In fact, other people have said that they are not in contact with the Labor dept.

The BENEFIT is surely in the eye of each holder.

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Also makes my work permit renewal a little simpler but that's a very minor point.

[bangkokbanks]

In regard to what Scorecard was saying about the 8 years, at least to my understanding that is now three years. From what I get from the old timers here, (I do not mean age), things really have changed for the better with regard to efficiency etc. In a way I have no complaint, as stated before on this thread; the Thai wife visa is a snap. That is of course if the Thai wife is a happy one the day we must show up at Immigration. But 11 years of marriage and two kids perhaps buys me some security. I used to like Suan Pru because it was close by, now having to travel up to the new location is a bit of a chore. I also know what you mean Scorecard, that it gives you security to have the Residency; and for that reason I too want to apply. It's just going to be a while.

Thanks everyone, this has turned out to be a very useful thread.

Cheers

[stbkk]

Yes, its definitely 3 years now.

Sorry to read about your trials with the tax/work permit issues, that must be so frustrating.

What you should also be aware of is that for the last 3+ years although they have been accepting applications, none seem to have been approved/refused!

I applied in December 2006, and have heard nothing for the best part of three years, since my Thai test.

If you read the pinned thread above you will see lots of speculation as to why, but for whatever reason nothing seems to be moving, or even show any sign of moving.

Even if the system returns to some sort of normalcy, it still takes 12-18 months from application, so they say.

[Time Traveller]

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Well yes, but you can also stay in Thailand with your family on yearly extensions for the rest of your life if you wanted. PR is not needed for that.

So in the current format I don't think there is any real value in PR in Thailand (especially when compared with PR in another country like Singapore or Australia). Except as said before if you want to become a Thai citizen in the future.

[Mario2008]

I think many people agree that the prime benefit of PR is that it opens up the way to Thai citizenship and it is not much harder to get than PR.

[bangkokbanks]

Yes, its definitely 3 years now.

Sorry to read about your trials with the tax/work permit issues, that must be so frustrating.

What you should also be aware of is that for the last 3+ years although they have been accepting applications, none seem to have been approved/refused!

I applied in December 2006, and have heard nothing for the best part of three years, since my Thai test.

If you read the pinned thread above you will see lots of speculation as to why, but for whatever reason nothing seems to be moving, or even show any sign of moving.

Even if the system returns to some sort of normalcy, it still takes 12-18 months from application, so they say.

You know I had read about that both on Thai Visa and Post Bag, Bangkok Post. No ryme or reason especially considering all the money you paid, the effort putting the papers together. For me, the file is really thick, now if in three years I go for it again, I am hoping all the translations can just be re stampped. I do not even want to think about it right now. It is terrible that you have to wait so long to hear the result.

[bangkokbanks]

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Well yes, but you can also stay in Thailand with your family on yearly extensions for the rest of your life if you wanted. PR is not needed for that.

So in the current format I don't think there is any real value in PR in Thailand (especially when compared with PR in another country like Singapore or Australia). Except as said before if you want to become a Thai citizen in the future.

Agreed. The expense and head ache may not be worth it. I send a messenger for my 90 days reporting, so it's just showing up once a year with the wife for the visa. It's not that much of a hassle. With regard to the citizenship, for sure it would be on my list of things I would like to accomplish, after all the Thai lessons and my over all feeling about being here; why not try.

[stbkk]

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Well yes, but you can also stay in Thailand with your family on yearly extensions for the rest of your life if you wanted. PR is not needed for that.

So in the current format I don't think there is any real value in PR in Thailand (especially when compared with PR in another country like Singapore or Australia). Except as said before if you want to become a Thai citizen in the future.

Agreed. The expense and head ache may not be worth it. I send a messenger for my 90 days reporting, so it's just showing up once a year with the wife for the visa. It's not that much of a hassle. With regard to the citizenship, for sure it would be on my list of things I would like to accomplish, after all the Thai lessons and my over all feeling about being here; why not try.

The citizenship thing may be less attractive from now on, with the recent announcement (I read on this forum somewhere) that you now have to provide a document agreeing to renounce your original citizenship when the Thai one is granted.

However I personally think the PR still has some value. You only have to skip through the posts here to see the frequent changes that happen to most visas. Who is to say that the family extensions will remain as easy to get in the future?

So far, although they have made a number of changes to the PR process over the years, it still seems to mean 'Permanent'. Of course, that could also change at any time.

In fact, the current 'holding' of several years worth of applications may point to something just like that being under way?

[wayfarer108]

One principal benefit I haven't seen mentioned yet is simply the fact that at a certain age one's memory begins to sag and it's easy to forget to renew one's visa or do the 90-day reporting. I've been eligible for PR for a long time but never seriously considered it until the last few years when I've almost missed renewing my visa a couple of times due to simple increasing forgetfulness Also after 30 years here the routine of renewing and reporting all the time has become increasingly tedious. I'd rather spend less time trying to remember when to renew the visa or do the 90-day reporting. Checking in every 5 years is a lot easier to take.

Edited March 5, 2010 by wayfarer108

[bangkokbanks]

One principal benefit I haven't seen mentioned yet is simply the fact that at a certain age one's memory begins to sag and it's easy to forget to renew one's visa or do the 90-day reporting. I've been eligible for PR for a long time but never seriously considered it until the last few years when I've almost missed renewing my visa a couple of times due to simple increasing forgetfulness Also after 30 years here the routine of renewing and reporting all the time has become increasingly tedious. I'd rather spend less time trying to remember when to renew the visa or do the 90-day reporting. Checking in every 5 years is a lot easier to take.

I agree with you there. I have sticky notes and Google reminders all over the place and too have missed a few vital renewals. You mention checking in every 5 years; I was unaware of that. But I guess it makes sense, one would have to renew the PR every 5 years. I would hope the renew would be just a formality and nothing more. In the case above where someone mentioned that when being granted Citizenship here in Thailand, that now the Thai government makes one relinquish their native born citizenship. I hope that is not true, it serves no purpose.

[Arkady]

One principal benefit I haven't seen mentioned yet is simply the fact that at a certain age one's memory begins to sag and it's easy to forget to renew one's visa or do the 90-day reporting. I've been eligible for PR for a long time but never seriously considered it until the last few years when I've almost missed renewing my visa a couple of times due to simple increasing forgetfulness Also after 30 years here the routine of renewing and reporting all the time has become increasingly tedious. I'd rather spend less time trying to remember when to renew the visa or do the 90-day reporting. Checking in every 5 years is a lot easier to take.

If you want to travel abroad as a PR, you have to get a re-entry visa every year. You check into your local cop shopt every 5 or so years to re-endorse your alien book. If you are getting forgetful, PR may be more hazardous than a marriage or retirment visa. If you come back to Thailand with an expired re-entry visa, they will cancel your PR with no exceptions. If you forget to take your resident's book to the airport, they will not let you out.

[Arkady]

Bkkbanks, you are actually very lucky that Immigration pointed out the error in your application right away. Others in your situation have had their applications ostensibly accepted and then two years later told to either withdraw it voluntarily or have their case forwarded to the Labour Ministry for prosecution which could result in deportation and blacklisting. See discussion on this point in the TV thread "Camerata's guide to permanent residency". Having had a few cases like that recently Immigration may now be on the look out for PR applicants who have two jobs and only one WP, so they can nip the problem in the bud and save them from applying. There is probably no black mark against you because they didn't take your application at all.

No one should rely on lawyers for anything to do with PR. I have never heard of any who knew what they were talking about. Some are honest enough to tell you they don't know but unfortunately many others will just you lead up the garden path because they are too idle to do a scrap of research and are happy just telling clients any old rubbish. If you hope to succeed with PR (or nationality), you must absolutely do all your own research. There is plenty of information available now on the Immigration website and Camerata's guide.

Rather than continuing to break the law by doing a second job with no WP and risking deportation, you should get a WP for it without delay. This is very simple. You just need to go to the Dept of Employment at the Labour Ministry (where you get your WP) with all the usual documents from the second company plus a letter from your main employer giving approval for you to do the second job. Your second job will then be added to the back of your WP in the space provided for 2nd, 3rd or 4th jobs. You may have to wait four years now, if you need three years earning the minimum earned income with WPs for all jobs, unless you fixed the problem from last December.

It is up to you whether you want to apply for PR or not. Assuming you don't mind the cost which is discounted for those with Thai wives and the hassle collecting the docs again it may be worth putting in an application anyway. It is very unclear what is happeing re PR applications but one thing is sure. If you don't apply, you won't get it. The downsides are the cost, the hassle of putting together the application and funnily enough the increased amount of photocopying you have to do once you have got it. Most foreigners only have to provide copies of their passport to do things in Thailand and Thais need to provide copies of their ID card and house registration certificate but the poor old PR has to provide copies of passport, house registration certificate, certificate of residence, alien book and work permit (if he is still working). The alien book ends up being many pages that need photocopying, once you have changed address a couple of times, renewed it a couple of times. been made to add an up-to-date photo or change any other details. It is also very cheaply made, despite being a document you are supposed to carry with you everywhere, and starts falling to pieces after a few years. Yet it has so many pages for changing details that hardly any one could ever fill one up in a life time and be issued with a new one. Apart from these minor inconviences and the fact that hardly any Thai bureaucrats understand what PR is, everything is pure upside. You can stay here for the rest of your life with only getting perfunctory endorsements at various intervals and no further annoying questions about your wife, your job, income or money in bank. You can get a WP with minimum effort and don't even need any Thai employees in the company. You can buy a condo without having a job and without showing the funds came from overseas. You can even get a license to own a gun in your own name, if you want one (otherwise only permitted for embassy staff). The most important thing to my mind is for peace of mind that you can stay here indefinitely without hassle. When I applied in the 90s, there were many naysayers who laughed at me for going to so much trouble, even it was far easier and cheaper then. Then in the late 90s financial crisis some of them suddenly lost their jobs and immediately became haunted non-persons not being able to buy a car, own a post-paid mobile phone, rent an apartment etc and had to become visa runners.

Who knows what is happening to the PR applications now? It could be that the Interior Ministry is reviewing the whole policy and doesn't want to approve any one until they can come out with a new one, or no one wants to sign anything in case they are accused of taking bribes, or more likely there is some logjam created by arcane politics within the ministry that may one day suddenly dissolve when some one retires or a new broom comes in. Unfortunately politicians have no fear of expats causing a fuss about such things as we have no votes. Note that the easiest PR document to get issued or changed is the house registration certificate which can always be done while you wait at the district office. The reason for this is that Thais need to get these and the Interior Ministry (ultimately responsible for district offices) is these days scared of complaints from Thais, although in the old days they happily treated their own people with disdain too.

If you are interested in nationality look at this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Story-Thai-C...io-t121353.html . Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Arkady

[Oasis]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalisation if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year around, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

[bangkokbanks]

Thanks, Arkady:

I want to thank you very much for both of your responses to this post. I might add this post is becoming very helpful to me in making a decision about my future, I hope too it may help others. When I started the post, it was all about how I can continue on my quest to submit my hard earned right to apply for Residency. After reading and gaining considerable new insight regarding the life of a Resident here, now for me - it may be best just to relax and forget about the hassle of PR. Arkady really put it into prospective for me; and being a multitasking fellow approaching 49 years of age, it goes without saying I can be forgetful. To me I see no point as far as my personal case, to bother with residency. Thus far I have had no problems what so ever with the Thai Wife Visa. Before the TWV, I used to apply for Non IM, also no problems but more hassle. For me really the only inconvenience at all, is having to pick up and go to Immigration once a year to apply for the visa (no big deal right?). The 90 days, I send a messenger. The work permit, is handled through the lawyer. Therefore in my case it may be different than many and although I think the Permanent Residency would be nice in the case of security, the extra hassle of having it may not be worth even trying. If I buy a condo, it will be money from oversees anyway.

It is ironic that the PR is in a way an extra responsibility for those that have it; after all, there is no reason for that. I did put together all of those papers required, I understand very well the work it takes to go through the process. The Thai government knows just about everything about you, that is why I do not understand why a PR cannot carry a simple card like a driver's license or Thai ID? But instead there are extra books that if forgotten the government will punish you for forgetting to renew or that the PR still has to apply for a re entry permit is absurd.

I also want to say Arkady, you are right about my luck at immigration. When I applied or tried to apply, the female officer was not exactly kind. She did not talk much but at least as you say, did not accept the application or report me. I went two times as well, convinced that Immigration must be wrong, I brought the lawyer the second time; he too was surprised. I then hired an outside lawyer that confirmed Immigration was correct. My baloon quickly deflated and I humbly "shut up."

And so with that, my awakening begins; the Thai Wife visa is my course for some time to come.

[bangkokbanks]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalization if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year around, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

That is very interesting: Really! For me I would much rather forgo the PR permit and head right for applying for citizenship. My Thai is just about there for that, but I would have to make sure. Thank you for this, I will for sure look into it.

Something that just came to mind; I had read in a thread here on Thai Visa that the Thai government makes you give up your birth citizenship. Do you know if that is true? I hope not.

[Arkady]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalization if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year around, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

That is very interesting: Really! For me I would much rather forgo the PR permit and head right for applying for citizenship. My Thai is just about there for that, but I would have to make sure. Thank you for this, I will for sure look into it.

Something that just came to mind; I had read in a thread here on Thai Visa that the Thai government makes you give up your birth citizenship. Do you know if that is true? I hope not.

The 2008 Nationality Act appears to provide for this as it introduced exemptions for males married to Thai citizens from the 5 years' residence requirement and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. you won't need to sing the anthems or do the simple multiple choice test but all interviews will still be conducted in Thai). However, the latest guidelines produced by the Interior Ministry in October 2009 go out of their way to emphasise the need to have an alien book and certificate of residence, with no mention of any exemption for males married to Thais. The latest guidelines also introduced a requirement for the first time ever to produce a declaration certified by the applicant's embassy that the applicant will renounce his existing nationality, if and when he or she is approved for Thai nationality. The Special Branch police who handle applications in Bangkok were not requiring this document as of January 2010 but they said that the Interior Ministry would ask for it at a later stage during the application procedure.

A foreign woman applying for Thai nationality on the strength of her husband's Thai nationality doesn't need any evidence of her profession or income because they examine her husband's income instead. However, all foreign male applicants must demonstrate that they have a profession and an earned salary with tax receipts. The monthly salary required is 80,000 baht for those without Thai family and 40,000 baht for those with Thai wife and/or kids. They will examine your PND 90 or 91 tax receipt and compare it with your salary in the letter from your company to ensure there is no discrepancy. Therefore you will have the same problem that you had in applying for PR with Immigration. However, I think they probably only do this for the latest full year of your tax receipts, as they seem to put most weighting on the last year, although they require the last three years' PND 90 or 91 (PND 90 is for those with other income including dividends and PND 91 is for those who have only salary). Since they also accept applications all year round, your problem might be easier to fix here than with Immigration.

I am not sure if any applications have yet been accepted from non-PR males with Thai wives on the strength of the 2008 Nationality Act and it may be too early to say how or if they will be received. My discussions with SB seem to indicate that PR is still considered a very important qualification. At the very least, there is a sure to be a very detailed investigation into the marriage. It takes time for attitudes to change at the Interior Ministry, whose senior mandarins view themselves as beyond any scrutiny or reproach. Many categories of people born in Thailand to alien parents after 1971 were apparently granted nationality almost automatically under the 2008 Nationality Act but it has not proved an easy process and many who applied to take up their rights have been rejected out of hand. There is no judicial process involved and all nationality issues are up to the discretion of the Minister with no appeal beyond the ministry possible.

Since the naturalization procedure is opaque, there is no substitute for going to chat to the Special Branch naturalization applications guys and gals in Room 24 at the back of national police HQ Patumwan. They all pretty helpful and friendly, although they have no access to information on what happens to applications once they have forwarded them to the Interior Ministry, except eventual approval or rejection. Also read the thread on nationality I referred to above.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Arkady

[bangkokbanks]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalization if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year around, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

That is very interesting: Really! For me I would much rather forgo the PR permit and head right for applying for citizenship. My Thai is just about there for that, but I would have to make sure. Thank you for this, I will for sure look into it.

Something that just came to mind; I had read in a thread here on Thai Visa that the Thai government makes you give up your birth citizenship. Do you know if that is true? I hope not.

The 2008 Nationality Act appears to provide for this as it introduced exemptions for males married to Thai citizens from the 5 years' residence requirement and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. you won't need to sing the anthems or do the simple multiple choice test but all interviews will still be conducted in Thai). However, the latest guidelines produced by the Interior Ministry in October 2009 go out of their way to emphasise the need to have an alien book and certificate of residence, with no mention of any exemption for males married to Thais. The latest guidelines also introduced a requirement for the first time ever to produce a declaration certified by the applicant's embassy that the applicant will renounce his existing nationality, if and when he or she is approved for Thai nationality. The Special Branch police who handle applications in Bangkok were not requiring this document as of January 2010 but they said that the Interior Ministry would ask for it at a later stage during the application procedure.

A foreign woman applying for Thai nationality on the strength of her husband's Thai nationality doesn't need any evidence of her profession or income because they examine her husband's income instead. However, all foreign male applicants must demonstrate that they have a profession and an earned salary with tax receipts. The monthly salary required is 80,000 baht for those without Thai family and 40,000 baht for those with Thai wife and/or kids. They will examine your PND 90 or 91 tax receipt and compare it with your salary in the letter from your company to ensure there is no discrepancy. Therefore you will have the same problem that you had in applying for PR with Immigration. However, I think they probably only do this for the latest full year of your tax receipts, as they seem to put most weighting on the last year, although they require the last three years' PND 90 or 91 (PND 90 is for those with other income including dividends and PND 91 is for those who have only salary). Since they also accept applications all year round, your problem might be easier to fix here than with Immigration.

I am not sure if any applications have yet been accepted from non-PR males with Thai wives on the strength of the 2008 Nationality Act and it may be too early to say how or if they will be received. My discussions with SB seem to indicate that PR is still considered a very important qualification. At the very least, there is a sure to be a very detailed investigation into the marriage. It takes time for attitudes to change at the Interior Ministry, whose senior mandarins view themselves as beyond any scrutiny or reproach. Many categories of people born in Thailand to alien parents after 1971 were apparently granted nationality almost automatically under the 2008 Nationality Act but it has not proved an easy process and many who applied to take up their rights have been rejected out of hand. There is no judicial process involved and all nationality issues are up to the discretion of the Minister with no appeal beyond the ministry possible.

Since the naturalization procedure is opaque, there is no substitute for going to chat to the Special Branch naturalization applications guys and gals in Room 24 at the back of national police HQ Patumwan. They all pretty helpful and friendly, although they have no access to information on what happens to applications once they have forwarded them to the Interior Ministry, except eventual approval or rejection. Also read the thread on nationality I referred to above.

ARKADY - you once again provided reader's of this post with valuable information. And you are right in regard to my case that the tax issue would be a problem, but if as you say they are only concerned with one year of Tax returns, my wait would not be long at all. I assume I could get through the Thai interviews with perhaps a few sticking points but maybe my charm would win them over The fact that Thailand does not allow dual citizenship is a problem. I do not want to give up my passport and what ever benifits I am entitled to from the US. Again I am baffled by Thai Gov. thinking on this because allowing dual citizenship would do them more good than harm. I know both Mexico and the US now allow dual citizenship, both countries benifiting from that decision. Based on what you explained above, I would certainly point myself in the Citizenship direction. I see no point in residency, unless let's say I end up making my sole income from Thailand. That is not the the reality since I have been here already 5 years. Start up companies take a while and more during the current financial crises. Seems like a hitting a wall at every turn despite our good intention; cracking the Thai code is not easy.

[jayboy]

No one should rely on lawyers for anything to do with PR. I have never heard of any who knew what they were talking about. Some are honest enough to tell you they don't know but unfortunately many others will just you lead up the garden path because they are too idle to do a scrap of research and are happy just telling clients any old rubbish. If you hope to succeed with PR (or nationality), you must absolutely do all your own research. There is plenty of information available now on the Immigration website and Camerata's guide.

I agree with everything in your sensible post except for the part indicated above where you are wrong.Because you have not come across first class immigration lawyers doesn't mean they don't exist.There are in Bangkok some excellent Thai immigration lawyers, and none of them market themselves to the foreign community(with due respect to the one or two firms that are sponsors of this forum, I would steer clear of these).The ones I have in mind tend to be partners in the most well known law firms, whether foreign or Thai owned.They will bear the research and administrative burden for the PR applicant but they are not cheap.By this I mean they charge commercial legal fees.A guesstimate for the whole process from initial submission to processing approve PR status would be about Bt 150,000.If one has plenty of time to research the matter and whiz around photocopying etc you can certainly do it yourself.There is no preference as far as I know towards those who use lawyers or those who don't.But first class immigration lawyers with expertise and integrity do exist and frankly for the well off busy executive it's a no brainer to use them.But I do agree it's absolutely essential to find the right one.

Edited March 9, 2010 by jayboy

[wayfarer108]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalisation if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year around, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

Does this apply to foreign men married to Thai women as well?

[Mario2008]

No. it may change in the future and it is probably against the constitution, but right now foreign husbands first have to get PR before they can apply for Thai nationality.

[Arkady]

ARKADY - you once again provided reader's of this post with valuable information. And you are right in regard to my case that the tax issue would be a problem, but if as you say they are only concerned with one year of Tax returns, my wait would not be long at all. I assume I could get through the Thai interviews with perhaps a few sticking points but maybe my charm would win them over The fact that Thailand does not allow dual citizenship is a problem. I do not want to give up my passport and what ever benifits I am entitled to from the US. Again I am baffled by Thai Gov. thinking on this because allowing dual citizenship would do them more good than harm. I know both Mexico and the US now allow dual citizenship, both countries benifiting from that decision. Based on what you explained above, I would certainly point myself in the Citizenship direction. I see no point in residency, unless let's say I end up making my sole income from Thailand. That is not the the reality since I have been here already 5 years. Start up companies take a while and more during the current financial crises. Seems like a hitting a wall at every turn despite our good intention; cracking the Thai code is not easy.

What I can say is that, if you apply for naturalisation, your latest year's tax receipt would be subject to detailed scrutiny and comparision with the letter(s) from your emloyer(s), confirming monthly salary to ensure the amounts match perfectly. I can say this because I have seen it done before my eyes. I think it is also the latest year that counts to ensure that you have a monthly salary of at least 80k (40k if married to a Thai). However, you still need to submit your latest three years' tax receipts (audited by the Revenue Dept for a modest fee). To be prudent though I can't say for sure that the first two years tax receipts would not be scrutinised at all by Special Branch or the Interior Ministry. As far as salary is concerned, I have always taken the view that for applying for PR or citizenship, it is probably best to exceed the minimum quotas comfortably. Special Branch will probably tell you that the minimums are OK because they are mainly concerned with ensuring that applications comply with current regulations and they let the Interior Ministry decide on finer points of suitabilty. However, you need to bear in mind that the minimums are not updated very often (when I first looked into it in the 90s the minimum monthly salary was only 7k which was far too little to get a WP). Applications from those who just scrape past the minimums might not be viewed very favourably in the Interior Ministry.