Residency Permit Without Tax Returns. Possible?

[Arkady]

No one should rely on lawyers for anything to do with PR. I have never heard of any who knew what they were talking about. Some are honest enough to tell you they don't know but unfortunately many others will just you lead up the garden path because they are too idle to do a scrap of research and are happy just telling clients any old rubbish. If you hope to succeed with PR (or nationality), you must absolutely do all your own research. There is plenty of information available now on the Immigration website and Camerata's guide.

I agree with everything in your sensible post except for the part indicated above where you are wrong.Because you have not come across first class immigration lawyers doesn't mean they don't exist.There are in Bangkok some excellent Thai immigration lawyers, and none of them market themselves to the foreign community(with due respect to the one or two firms that are sponsors of this forum, I would steer clear of these).The ones I have in mind tend to be partners in the most well known law firms, whether foreign or Thai owned.They will bear the research and administrative burden for the PR applicant but they are not cheap.By this I mean they charge commercial legal fees.A guesstimate for the whole process from initial submission to processing approve PR status would be about Bt 150,000.If one has plenty of time to research the matter and whiz around photocopying etc you can certainly do it yourself.There is no preference as far as I know towards those who use lawyers or those who don't.But first class immigration lawyers with expertise and integrity do exist and frankly for the well off busy executive it's a no brainer to use them.But I do agree it's absolutely essential to find the right one.

Of course there must be some exceptions but they probably prove the rule. For those whose time and money is precious the most sensible approach seems to be to do one's own research but employ a firm to do the leg work of getting documents translated and notarized etc under close supervision. The law firms that sponsor TV tend by and large to be good at what they do and are often better than the corporate lawyers at things like WPs, usufruct agreements etc, because it's their bread butter. However, there are not many people applying for PR and nationality and therefore it is not very lucrative and few lawyers build their skill bases in those areas.

[Arkady]

No. it may change in the future and it is probably against the constitution, but right now foreign husbands first have to get PR before they can apply for Thai nationality.

There is a ruling of the Council of State in response to an enquiry from the Ombudsman that the Nationality Act prior to its 2008 amendments in allowing a special category of application for foreign women married to Thai men but not the converse was not discrimatory towards Thai women based on the 1997 Constitution because the government has the right to treat male and female applications differently in order to protect national security. That would probably apply equally to the 2007 Constitution as I believe the wording about discrimination on grounds of gender, race, religion etc is the same as in the 1997 Constitution. In spite of this the 2008 Nationality Act appeared to remove two of the three differences in treating males married to Thais, versus females married to Thais. Those were the requirement to have been resident in the Kingdom for five years and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language. The only difference in the Act is now that foreign men need to demonstrate that they have a profession (in Thailand), whereas in the case of female applicants their Thai husbands need to demonstrate that they can support their foreign wives. The chance of the current Nationalilty Act being successfully challenged in this respect on constitutional grounds thus seems to me virtually nil in the present climate of attitudes to gender equality in Thailand. However, how this aspect of the 2008 Nationality Act is interpreted remains to be seen. Since the wheels grind slowly, it is early days yet. Things will probably change eventually but combined with some overall raising of the bar to avoid a slew of applications from foreign men deemed undesirable by the Interior Ministry. The new guideline requiring the declaration of willingness to renounce current nationality notarized by applicants' embassies may be the thin end of the wedge here. The vast majority of applicants are from countries that don't permit dual nationality.

[bangkokbanks]

No. it may change in the future and it is probably against the constitution, but right now foreign husbands first have to get PR before they can apply for Thai nationality.

There is a ruling of the Council of State in response to an enquiry from the Ombudsman that the Nationality Act prior to its 2008 amendments in allowing a special category of application for foreign women married to Thai men but not the converse was not discrimatory towards Thai women based on the 1997 Constitution because the government has the right to treat male and female applications differently in order to protect national security. That would probably apply equally to the 2007 Constitution as I believe the wording about discrimination on grounds of gender, race, religion etc is the same as in the 1997 Constitution. In spite of this the 2008 Nationality Act appeared to remove two of the three differences in treating males married to Thais, versus females married to Thais. Those were the requirement to have been resident in the Kingdom for five years and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language. The only difference in the Act is now that foreign men need to demonstrate that they have a profession (in Thailand), whereas in the case of female applicants their Thai husbands need to demonstrate that they can support their foreign wives. The chance of the current Nationality Act being successfully challenged in this respect on constitutional grounds thus seems to me virtually nil in the present climate of attitudes to gender equality in Thailand. However, how this aspect of the 2008 Nationality Act is interpreted remains to be seen. Since the wheels grind slowly, it is early days yet. Things will probably change eventually but combined with some overall raising of the bar to avoid a slew of applications from foreign men deemed undesirable by the Interior Ministry. The new guideline requiring the declaration of willingness to renounce current nationality notarized by applicants' embassies may be the thin end of the wedge here. The vast majority of applicants are from countries that don't permit dual nationality.

Very interesting. I am assuming that not many English or Americans are applying for citizenship instead PR is the norm. In some ways the government's decision is logical to a degree, only resulting in keeping a lot of good people from applying. What I mean by good people, are persons that could contribute to the country; people with perhaps outside sources of money, or people that could invest here contributing to the economy and work force. Therefore the rule as such of imposing one to give up their native nationality is not helping the country but instead may be hindering the best applicants to apply.

In the case of the PR, I have made the decision based primarily on the input from this very post that I started some weeks ago to forget about it. For me, being married for 11 years to a Thai with children perhaps gives me a base for security only because the Thai Wife Visa as mentioned has been (thus far) easy to obtain. The expense of the PR and the tremendous hassle of preparing all the necessary documents (in my case done already), and the reality that the PR does not grant one much more convenience than the Thai Wife Visa; in some instances the PR can be more of a hassle because of the documents required when applying for bank accounts etc. weigh in favor of the Thai Wife Visa.

I do not understand the thinking of the immigration department but long ago have stopped asking why in Thailand. I guess I can truly say I am earning my wings here; griping about it wont change anything nor will criticizing the status quo. Based on what I have learned in this post, and I do appreciate the cogent responses; I best sit tight but in the mean time make sure my Work Permit is renewed on time, my Visa are always renewed on time, my 90 day reporting is reported on time, I have sufficient money in the bank, my taxes are filed properly with no mixing of non work permit activity and I continue with my Thai lessons. Then one day perhaps if the law changes; citizenship may look rather appealing.

Great Post!

[Mario2008]

Don't forget that Thailand is also party to several human right treaties, who also have relevance regarding gender discrimination. However, the interpretation of these treaties is up to the Thai High Court. Thailand is not party to the part of the treaties that give an international tribunal permission to investigate individual complaints about possible violations of the treaty.

However, it will be strange if the Thai high court comes with a total differnt interpretation of a treaty than the tribunal.

[Arkady]

Don't forget that Thailand is also party to several human right treaties, who also have relevance regarding gender discrimination. However, the interpretation of these treaties is up to the Thai High Court. Thailand is not party to the part of the treaties that give an international tribunal permission to investigate individual complaints about possible violations of the treaty.

However, it will be strange if the Thai high court comes with a total differnt interpretation of a treaty than the tribunal.

Mario, I think the Interior Ministry feels it has already squared away its position on gender discrimination as far as the letter of the law is concerned. I believe that the mandarins took the view that the Council of State ruling was something that could be reversed in future as attitudes change. Having to fall back on the old Cold War national security adage without any deeper legal justification for the gender discrimination did seem a bit of a stop gap solution and may have served as a warning to them to get their house in order. Since the 2008 Nationality Act the only discrimination that remains is that foreign men with Thai wives need to demonstrate that they have a profession and income. In theory this leaves the discrimination of assuming that men are automatically the bread winner in a family but the same discrimination also applies to foreign women with good jobs in Thailand who are married to unemployed Thai men, since in their case their husbands have to demonstrate their income. The letter of the law now leaves only the case of Thai women with well paid jobs wanting Thai citizenship for their unemployed foreign husbands in a position to claim they are discriminated against under the constitution or human rights treaties. Of course the interpretation of the law in the form of processing applications for employed foreign men with Thai wives but without PR is another matter. The law gives loads of wiggle room as all matters of nationality are up to the discretion of the minister and no judicial review is possible under the law. A Swiss man tried to sue the Interior Minister in the Administrative Court for rejecting his PR application in the early 2000s but the court ruled it that the law permitted the minister to approve or reject applications according to his discretion without having to give a reason. Since it takes years to process all naturalization applications, it would take a long time before any one could come up with a discrimination case, as long as Special Branch starts accepting applications from foreign men without PR married to Thais. That is why I suspect they will start to accept such applications.

[Arkady]

Very interesting. I am assuming that not many English or Americans are applying for citizenship instead PR is the norm. In some ways the government's decision is logical to a degree, only resulting in keeping a lot of good people from applying. What I mean by good people, are persons that could contribute to the country; people with perhaps outside sources of money, or people that could invest here contributing to the economy and work force. Therefore the rule as such of imposing one to give up their native nationality is not helping the country but instead may be hindering the best applicants to apply.

In the case of the PR, I have made the decision based primarily on the input from this very post that I started some weeks ago to forget about it. For me, being married for 11 years to a Thai with children perhaps gives me a base for security only because the Thai Wife Visa as mentioned has been (thus far) easy to obtain. The expense of the PR and the tremendous hassle of preparing all the necessary documents (in my case done already), and the reality that the PR does not grant one much more convenience than the Thai Wife Visa; in some instances the PR can be more of a hassle because of the documents required when applying for bank accounts etc. weigh in favor of the Thai Wife Visa.

I do not understand the thinking of the immigration department but long ago have stopped asking why in Thailand. I guess I can truly say I am earning my wings here; griping about it wont change anything nor will criticizing the status quo. Based on what I have learned in this post, and I do appreciate the cogent responses; I best sit tight but in the mean time make sure my Work Permit is renewed on time, my Visa are always renewed on time, my 90 day reporting is reported on time, I have sufficient money in the bank, my taxes are filed properly with no mixing of non work permit activity and I continue with my Thai lessons. Then one day perhaps if the law changes; citizenship may look rather appealing.

Great Post!

Bkkbanks, in fact not many British or Americans apply for PR or citizenship. In the last list of PR approvals issued in 2006 the list was dominated by Chinese, Taiwanese and Indian nationals. Off hand I think Western nationals only account for about 10% or less. Statistics for nationality approvals are less easy to come by but eye witness accounts from applicants going to batch interviews at the Interior Ministry suggest that farangs account for only about 5%. That stands to reason because all, except foreign women married to Thais, would have had to be PRs to apply. I think Westerners tend to feel that their passports are pretty good since they enable visa free travel to many countries and most of those with good jobs here are not inclined to make Thailand their permanent homes, as they are not entrepreneurs and have to go where they are posted to maintain their lifestyles. On the other hand Chinese, Taiwanse and Indian passports are no better for visaless travel than Thai passports and there are sizeable Chinese and Indian communities in Thailand. Many have businesses and relatives in Thailand and want to stay permanently. In addition, the Chinese can easily blend in and become Thai Chinese within one generation.

Offialdom seems to blow hot and cold on the issue of dual nationality. The 1992 Nationality Act allowed Thai women to pass on their nationality to their offspring without restriction for the first time and opened up the floodgates for thousands of look krueng with Thai mothers to beome Thai. However, there were in fact two 1992 Nationality Acts. The first one very specifically required look krueng to choose their nationality in their 21st year and renounce their other nationality, if they chose to remain Thai. A few months later the second 1992 Nationality Act changed the wording subtly to remove the obligation to renounce other nationalities, if they chose to remain Thai. I can't recall any public debate about this but there must have been some lobbying behind the scenes from powerful people with dual nationality or kids with dual nationality. Today dual nationality has got rather negative connotations due to the thousands of Thai-Malaysian dual nationals who are believed to be trouble makers in the South and more recently in the case of Thaksin Shinawatra who jets around the world evading Thai law on multiple passports.

I would not give up entirely on PR or citizenship. You have already been through the mill of preparing an application once and now know what is required. The documentary requirements for citizenship are similar to PR but generally a little less onerous. Things have a habit of changing suddenly in Thailand after years of impasse. You just need to keep in touch and be able to move quickly, if you spot an opportunity.

[Oasis]

Hello Dear,

If you are planning to get Thai Citizenship after your PR permit then go to the Royal Thai Police head office, you can apply for Naturalisation if you are married to Thai without having Permanent Residency permit with staying at least 5 years in Thailand (Latest Law). They receive application all year round, not in December every year as PR. Good Luck!

Does this apply to foreign men married to Thai women as well?

Dear Wayfarer,

Yes, it does apply to foreign men married to Thai woman.

[Mario2008]

Again thanks for your insights Arkady. They are always much appreciated, at least by me.

One comment I would like to make is that the administrattive court is relatively new in Thailand, I believe somewhere in 2004 established. That might open-up new legal way. But as always, this kind of change does take some time. The current protection of the European Convention on Human Rights didn't come in 1 day or even year. It took a long time to reach the current level. In the early years there was a very strict interpretation of human rights and as time chaged and the court gained influance and etablished itself the court opened more up to all kind of claims of human rights violations.

[anon7867763]

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Well yes, but you can also stay in Thailand with your family on yearly extensions for the rest of your life if you wanted. PR is not needed for that.

So in the current format I don't think there is any real value in PR in Thailand (especially when compared with PR in another country like Singapore or Australia). Except as said before if you want to become a Thai citizen in the future.

Agreed. The expense and head ache may not be worth it. I send a messenger for my 90 days reporting, so it's just showing up once a year with the wife for the visa. It's not that much of a hassle. With regard to the citizenship, for sure it would be on my list of things I would like to accomplish, after all the Thai lessons and my over all feeling about being here; why not try.

The citizenship thing may be less attractive from now on, with the recent announcement (I read on this forum somewhere) that you now have to provide a document agreeing to renounce your original citizenship when the Thai one is granted.

However I personally think the PR still has some value. You only have to skip through the posts here to see the frequent changes that happen to most visas. Who is to say that the family extensions will remain as easy to get in the future?

So far, although they have made a number of changes to the PR process over the years, it still seems to mean 'Permanent'. Of course, that could also change at any time.

In fact, the current 'holding' of several years worth of applications may point to something just like that being under way?

If they take your current passport just tell your country what happened and they usually give you another passport (I know that´s true in the UK)

It happened to me in Spain when I got my Spanish citizenship, The Embassy simply took it that the Spanish authourities had stolen my British passport and issued me with another

Anyway better to check with your Embassy as all countries are different.

[Arkady]

If they take your current passport just tell your country what happened and they usually give you another passport (I know that´s true in the UK)

It happened to me in Spain when I got my Spanish citizenship, The Embassy simply took it that the Spanish authourities had stolen my British passport and issued me with another

Anyway better to check with your Embassy as all countries are different.

I don't know why some countries steal passports like that. They are the property of the issuing country. A friend who became American said that at the naturalisation ceremony they confiscated passports they didn't like, e.g. Somalian, but left Western Europeans with theirs. It's much more meaningful to ask for a renunciation certificate or other evidence of renunciation, if they mean business, like the Norwegians, Malaysians, Singaporeans etc do. Surprised that the Spanish still do that. In Europe you travel around with no visa stamps anyway, so there is no way in hel_l they would ever know. The Italians have now got around to restoring nationality to thousands of people they forced to renounce Italian nationality because they were naturalised as something else.

[bangkokbanks]

I have to chime in with regard to the American naturalization ceremony. My wife went through it 6 years ago in San Diego, they wanted her Thai passport only to cancel a stamp in it, and handed it back. They then gave them naturalization certificates and urged everyone to get a US passport and Social Security Numbers. There had to have been over 500 people from various countries that became US citizens that day. I know Mexican dual citizens and many Thai dual citizens thus I conclude from my experience, there is no problem with dual citizenship in the USA.