Nationalism, Its Irrational, Isn't It?

[Jingthing]

Americans think their country is the best.

Chinese think their country is the best.

Thais think their country is the best.

Turks think their country is the best.

Iranians think their country is the best.

Brazilians think their country is the best.

French think their country is the best.

Russians think their country is the best.

etc.,etc., etc.

OK, there are some countries which are such basket cases that even the locals know they aren't the best.

However, how can people be so irrational. Don't they know that they might think their country is the best, that most of the world ALSO thinks their country is the best? They can't ALL be the best, now can they?

I know some Americans will say all of the world is crying to get in the USA. That is the line we are taught since young babes. However, it isn't true. Lots of people seeking economic opportunity are clamoring to get into ANY first world country. However most people from countries with reasonable opportunities have no interest whatsoever in migrating to the USA or anywhere else ... (BTW, these days there is strong evidence that is easier to raise your social class in European countries than the US.)

It's kind of like in wars. Both sides usually think God is on THEIR side. How can God be on ALL sides?

It boggles.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jingthing

[SeanMoran]

I would rather be a rich man in a poor country than a poor man in a rich country.

The Mekong is drying up. Take me to the rice paddies in Antarctica.

[Jingthing]

I would rather be a rich man in a poor country than a poor man in a rich country.

The Mekong is drying up. Take me to the rice paddies in Antarctica.

Good ones, Sean.

[luangtom]

JingThing- And your point is???????

[Jingthing]

JingThing- And your point is???????

I made my point already. Do you all agree?

[Phil Conners]

Nationalism has no place in this age of the global world. There is only one planet Earth, it belongs to all of us.

[Hardback]

Nationalism has no place in this age of the global world. There is only one planet Earth, it belongs to all of us.

Nice sentiment.

[kandahar]

I don’t think the people are irrational at all. It is natural to think of "your" country as the best, I would think. It is home. The food is what you are used to. You know the rules and the laws. In most cases, you perhaps even witnessed or were a part of the events that caused some of the laws to be implemented. You have a history there. You have most likely mastered the language. You know the boundaries of behavior in the society. You typically know what type of reaction any of your actions will cause. You are comfortable.

It is also fairly natural to find other countries "below" yours because there are so many things you don't quite get when you visit or live there. It isn't your element, you didn't live the history and you most likely didn't learn the history of that country. Without that, a lot of what you experience goes against what you "know" to be normal. You're out of your element. But the residents around you are not. They feel the way about their country that you do about yours. Natural. They are in their comfort zone. But, as you said, there are a few basket case exceptions.

Americans complain about their country constantly and almost any American can point out the faults of the country in a hurry. At the same time, they are thankful for what they do have that other countries don't have and they recognize that even with its faults, it offers a lot more than most.

I'm not sure where you find that the immigration thing in the U.S. isn't big. While lots of folks from certain parts of the world do prefer to immigrate to Europe, people in other parts of the world prefer the U.S. From my travels, I have determined that it really boils down to where the immigrants have contacts and relatives and where the immigrants can find a culture that isn't too far away from their own. Each of the more prosperous countries seem to be flooded with immigrants from certain neighboring countries. The immigrants seem to go with what they know and what they know is what previous immigrants can write home and tell about. There is a huge Turkish population in Germany and it is growing quickly. Comparatively speaking, the Turkish population in the U.S. is small. There is a geographic reason for that, one country being near and one country being far. There is also a historic trend that promotes that growth of Turkish immigrants in Germany and it will continue.

The U.S. still gets plenty of immigrants. True, the Mexican population is not growing so much right now because the economy is down. If the economy surges, the borders will be flooded with those immigrants again.

There are lots of immigrants arriving in the U.S. that aren't going there to be laborers or factory workers. Many are going there to open businesses. And they are successful. Most are more successful than their American counterparts because most are willing to work 16 or 18 hours a day to make the business a success. Their family members are willing to pitch in and work for next to nothing just because that is what it takes. As more and more small businesses in the U.S. fail, there is also a trend of immigrants businesses hanging on and on and on, just not giving up. The immigrants have more to lose. They don't want to fail and have to go home. Therefore, they sacrifice in just about whatever ways they can to survive.

Interestingly enough, there is still a large influx of Muslim people arriving in the U.S. I'm surprised by that. I would think that they would see the U.S. as their most hated country. But they do recognize the freedoms, opportunities and standard of living available there.

All in all, the immigration trends shift with the events that shape history. This decade, one country looks like a better bet than another. Next decade it will shift yet again.

But why do many of us insist that our country is better than the others? You asked that question. Some countries have different experiences that contribute to that belief. Start with Thailand. Why do Thais think their country is better? One good reason to believe that is all of the farang who are wanting to live here. If the Brits, the Aussies, the Germans, the Americans and on and on, think this is a better country to live in than their own, then it is pretty easy for a Thai to make a conclusion in favor of Thailand. The other countries? Really, some of the same. If the citizens of other countries don’t see lots of people trying to get in, they at least see on the news that the OTHER countries have lots of really weird problems that just can't be understood. They see crime rates in the other countries and it exceeds theirs. They read about a country that has placed cameras everywhere, to spy on the citizens. They see plenty on the news to help them make the argument that those "other" countries are screwed up.

They also interact with people from neighboring countries. Guess what? Some of those people from the neighboring countries talk funny, eat strange foods, don't know the customs of "us" civilized people. It is hard to accept someone when they aren't like you and it is imperative to the survival of your country and your customs to recognize that "your" way of life is the right way of life. If you give in and decide another place is better than yours, another group is better than your group, then you have just pretty much handed the keys to your country and possibly your freedom, to some stranger and you are going to lose your customs, your comfortable society and perhaps your life.

And that is pretty much what is happening in the U.S. This really is another topic entirely, but it ties in with the last paragraph. In the U.S., you are guaranteed certain rights. Unfortunately, when you guarantee those rights, some people find a way to put themselves and their goals ahead of the good of society. They can do a lot of harm and can't be touched because it is their right. Individual rights are outweighing the rights of society and people are using that "freedom" to push others out, down and into silence and submission. People are using those rights to run banks in a fashion that will wreck the world but profit the few individuals. They are using those rights to walk out of prisons again and again to rape, rob and kill, again and again. They use those rights to get what they want as individuals, regardless of the cost to society and the loss of American customs and there isn't anything that can be done about it unless someone decides to violate those persons rights. And even when you can prove that you did right by society by violating those person's rights, you are going to be punished for violating their rights.

So, right now, you can immigrate to the U.S. and it is likely (depending on where you're coming from) a much better thing than what you are leaving. You can prosper if you want to work hard. You have lots of protections that you might not have had at home. You probably have a lot of opportunities that you didn't have at home and you will likely recognize many opportunities that the current citizens aren't willing to see or pursue.

But all of that is going to change. The U.S. has a president right now that is intent on telling the world that the U.S. isn't a better country than the next; it is a bad place with a bad record of doing bad things. The corporations are intent on plundering the nation, hiring temps and contract workers in order not to pay benefits to full-time, dedicated employees. Corporate American is also driving small businesses off the map. The banks have a free hand in the pillaging of the consumer and the taxpayer. The average citizen is demoralized by a corrupt, paralyzed government that is supposed to be protecting their way of life. Special interest groups are buying any legislation they want to further their profits or causes. Individuals are suing in courts, and winning, for the right to the money you have now and may earn in the future because they trespassed on your land or attempted to rob you and they got hurt doing it.

In the U.S., the little guy is every guy. The little guy is starting to believe that the American dream is no more. People are starting to see other countries as better than their country. And in lots of cases, that other country IS at least as good as their country and maybe better. The people there are losing the desire to believe that their country is better. They will lose their country if they don't turn it around. If they lose it, they and the future generations will ask why they didn't fight for what they had. They will ask why they didn't continue to insist that their country was better than the others and make it better. The world will see what happens when a country as a whole loses its desire to proclaim itself better than the others.

I don’t think that it is at all irrational to believe and to tell others, that your country is tops. It is irrational not to.

[elcent]

kandahar

you sound like a soldier, are you? Maybe Kandahar in Afghanistan?

If we all want to keep this planet a little longer then nationalism has no place. Nationalism comes from brainwash-tactics starting with sport, gladiators in the 21st century.

If they world wants to keep up with the new realities we have to break dividing walls and open up. But there is no place for nationalism or radical religions etc..

[bjoe97]

its fine to be proud of your country- i am very proud of mine, but i know its messed up really badly in the past

but not blind

i am writing on the " man who refused to die" post simply saying that we should stop bashing the japs and remember the west was just as bad at certain times

but some proud and really thick posters have seemed to take great exception to me telling them this

they seem to think everything the white man did was fine, and all those who died due to him should be forgotten or ignored

i say be proud of country for the goods its done- but be honest about its past

[Carib]

Great, we found a new place to discuss something what eventually will end up in a mess since it probably will go into the direction of discussing the politics of some great nations....

Since it is in the " fun and entertainment" section, I am sure it will be just that.

[smokie36]

I like that places are different. Globalization just makes everywhere the same. People should learn to live with their differences and appreciate them more. Especially now as they are being eroded worldwide.

[Jingthing]

I read kandahar's post as great evidence that it IS indeed irrational to be nationalistic, even though that wasn't his intention. His point boiled down is that most people are most comfortable in their home country and most people find foreign ways strange. In other words, cultural brainwashing. Irrational. Human nature, but the greater reality is that we are all humans in all countries and we shouldn't be hating each other and killing each other because we are different. Now oil, food, and water, that's another story, ha ha. I am not so radical as to feel we should abolish nation states, passports, and borders; it wouldn't matter if I was because it ain't going to happen.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jingthing

[cognos]

Nationalism has no place in this age of the global world. There is only one planet Earth, it belongs to all of us.

..many people are somewhat myopic, and countries can be that way too if not careful. As a Canadian ( from Vancouver) i was a little shocked several years ago when i counted over 20 American flags in a mall parking lot in Seattle. It seemed to be overkill mak mak loy.

In Canada (perhaps) we are not (quite) as Nationalisitic as the average American, and i am not sure why that is. "Up here", you will see a Canadian flag here and there, but nowhere near the amount that one sees to the south.

it can be argued that Canada has the most multi - culturalism of any country in the world. The last high school i worked in had over 70 different languages other than english spoken in the home. I will guess that the more races you have in your country, the less racist the citizens will be ( in general). Comparing racism and nationalism is like comparing apples and oranges, or is it ??????

signed: hurray for mixed marriages

[elcent]

I like that places are different. Globalization just makes everywhere the same. People should learn to live with their differences and appreciate them more. Especially now as they are being eroded worldwide.

Places would stay different don't worry. It is climate related as well, but I never heard of national climate. But there are wars about climate zones in the name of nationalism or radical religions. There are wars to keep labor costs down, sponsored by big corporations (one was started just over broccoli in Chile decades ago). Should I go on?

By the way, does anybody know who composed the Thai anthem?

was it Peter Feit?

Peter Weiss?

Peter Jakob?

or Phra Jenduriyang?

Edited March 4, 2010 by elcent

[HS Mauberley]

Americans think their country is the best.

Chinese think their country is the best.

Thais think their country is the best.

Turks think their country is the best.

Iranians think their country is the best.

Brazilians think their country is the best.

French think their country is the best.

Russians think their country is the best.

I'm not sure that's true. Americans seem to be peculiarly infatuated with their country in a way that others aren't. If you ask most Europeans, you won't find many who really, really, really believe that their country really, really, really is the best country in the world (or, in extreme cases, the best possible country.) It's one thing to support your national football team, another to fetishize your country in the way that so many Americans do.

Edited March 4, 2010 by HS Mauberley

[antony77]

I would rather be a rich man in a poor country than a poor man in a rich country.

The Mekong is drying up. Take me to the rice paddies in Antarctica.

Good ones, Sean.

Thats why so many farangs live here

[Ulysses G.]

Americans think their country is the best.

Chinese think their country is the best.

Thais think their country is the best.

Turks think their country is the best.

Iranians think their country is the best.

Brazilians think their country is the best.

French think their country is the best.

Russians think their country is the best.

I'm not sure that's true. Americans seem to be peculiarly infatuated with their country in a way that others aren't. If you ask most Europeans, you won't find many who really, really, really believe that their country really, really, really is the best country in the world (or, in extreme cases, the best possible country.) It's one thing to support your national football team, another to fetishize your country in the way that so many Americans do.

I would hazard a guess that England was much the same until the Empire crumbled into dust.

[Curt1591]

I'm not sure that's true. Americans seem to be peculiarly infatuated with their country in a way that others aren't. If you ask most Europeans, you won't find many who really, really, really believe that their country really, really, really is the best country in the world (or, in extreme cases, the best possible country.) It's one thing to support your national football team, another to fetishize your country in the way that so many Americans do.

I think it's actually Americans are peculiarly criticized for being from their country, in a way that most others aren't.

When I meet someone from another country, I usually ask questions about their homeland. When people - Europeans - find that I am American, I hear the same, stale rhetoric about all that's wrong with America.

It's one thing to support your national football team .....

So, supporting one's sports team makes sense; supporting one's country doesn't?

American's have their priorities skewed?!

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks Curt. Some common sense on this issue is refreshing!

[OriginalPoster]

Nationalism has no place in this age of the global world. There is only one planet Earth, it belongs to all of us.

Nice sentiment.

A very rare one amongst expats in Thailand though.

[Trickcyclist]

Patriotism

Whenever you hear a man speak of his love for his country, it is a sign that he he expects too be paid for it.

H L Mencken

Religion

Schoolmaster: Now you're sure you've got the Catechism all buttoned-up Foster?

Foster. I'm still a bit hairy about the Trinity, sir.

Schoolmaster: Three in one, one in three, perfectly straightforward. Any doubts about that see your maths master.

Alan Bennett

[OriginalPoster]

I'm not sure that's true. Americans seem to be peculiarly infatuated with their country in a way that others aren't. If you ask most Europeans, you won't find many who really, really, really believe that their country really, really, really is the best country in the world (or, in extreme cases, the best possible country.) It's one thing to support your national football team, another to fetishize your country in the way that so many Americans do.

I think it's actually Americans are peculiarly criticized for being from their country, in a way that most others aren't.

When I meet someone from another country, I usually ask questions about their homeland. When people - Europeans - find that I am American, I hear the same, stale rhetoric about all that's wrong with America.

That describes the situation about perfectly. Europeans don't view that as nationalism on their part though.

[Ulysses G.]

It is really all about fashion.

[bifftastic]

Jingthing does it again! Thought-provoking post

I think nationalism has a kind of rational aspect to it in that it makes sense for groups of people (which is what nations are) to have pride in the way they do things in order for that particular 'way' to thrive and be successful.

That is in a very basic social grouping, the way nations developed and became nation states is when these ideas and cultures came into contact with others, and differences in language, primarily, led to mis-understandings and conflicts.

In order to define a nation state it is necessary to encourage feelings of 'otherness' in that 'they do things differently over there' which leads a group to decide that 'our way is the best way' so that the way that group is organised can thrive.

So, in that sense it is perfectly rational.

Rational doesn't mean healthy. It's another argument completely as to whether or not nationalism is good for the world as a whole. Certainly it has defined many aspects of the world we know today, but there are always people who desire to stretch the boundaries, move across the borders and make contact on a human level and blur those national differences. This is one of the ways our species progresses.

It is, I think, natural for people in any country you care to mention, to compare 'their' way of life to others. It's very difficult to compare a way of life because in order to make a real comparison you would have to rid yourself of your cultural heritage which is impossible.

What we can do, and what often happens, is that when we really meet the 'others' we see that despite our differences we share more than we thought and have the most important things, love, family, desire for happiness and security, in common.

This can be seen in particular in Europe, (probably in many other places too, but Europe is what I know a little about) where for thousands of years, the 'otherness' of language and culture meant that bloody wars would rage, practically non-stop for centuries. In WW1 both the British and the Germans thought 'god is on our side' or gott mit uns'. After that conflict there was an upsurgance of more political ideologies which seemed to try and replace the centuries old religious-based doctrines. This caused even more conflict and, arguably, lead the continents great rivals, Germany and France, to decide that despite the 'other' being the hated enemy of many conflicts, union was the only way forward.

Now, the states of Europe, whilst still different, and still populated by people who regard their state as 'better' are not slaughtering each other. Indeed many share a currency and have borders which are open to each other.

So, is it rational? Yes, I think it is. Is it a good thing? Depends on what it leads you to do.

I think it's part of our social evolution.

[kandahar]

I read kandahar's post as great evidence that it IS indeed irrational to be nationalistic, even though that wasn't his intention. His point boiled down is that most people are most comfortable in their home country and most people find foreign ways strange. In other words, cultural brainwashing. Irrational. Human nature, but the greater reality is that we are all humans in all countries and we shouldn't be hating each other and killing each other because we are different. Now oil, food, and water, that's another story, ha ha. I am not so radical as to feel we should abolish nation states, passports, and borders; it wouldn't matter if I was because it ain't going to happen.

I certainly didn't support or defend hating or killing other people because they are different. I don't think that Nationalism lends much weight to that theory either. That conclusion doesn't really go with the topic but it might be a good topic for another day. The hating and killing seems to be religion based much more so than Nationalism. While some wars have been fought primarily because of religious differences, other countries that share the same religions as the warring nations chose to not get involved.

Brainwashing isn't implied, mentioned or in any other way a part of my argument. Erroneous deduction, on your part, but I'll assume that is a just a pet of yours that you like to push out there once in a while. However, don't pretend it is my thinking. You did follow up with a correct answer, which is human nature. Big difference between human nature and brainwashing.

For those who like the idea of one nation on this planet with everyone sharing everything equally, you'll probably have that in the future. Okay, maybe not you but your descendants. I'm fairly certain they will long for the past and the wide array of options we enjoy today. When all is owned and governed by a few, the world over, the average person isn't likely to be enjoying life. When the rights, customs and religions of the entire world are boiled down to one set of standards that all have to adhere to, it is going to be a dreary, bland existence.

As for why the U.S. is a bit more proud or Nationalistic, in some ways, the answer is easy. It is a young country that has grown into a world power in a short time. Every American that is educated there is made aware of the fact that it is a new country that quickly became a nation that was called upon by many others to provide help and it had the resources and manpower to make a difference. Any American can look at the history of the world and then imagine the changes that would be if their country had been too weak to help or had opted to sit on the sidelines in the last 200 years. That is nothing to be ashamed of. It isn't brainwashing. It is a summary of the historic facts concerning that young nation and there is only one likely conclusion for freedom loving people.

The other countries of this world, for the most part, have histories that go back thousands of years. Many of those countries can look at their own histories and see that their countries have been involved in conquering other nations for national gain, land and resource grabs, persecution of opposing religions and power hungry, greedy, nationalistic reasons. The U.S. doesn't have that track record. For the most part, when the U.S. leaves an area where it fights, the area returns back to governing itself and to its original way of life. Note that I said "for the most part". There are a few exceptions but certainly not enough to give the American people the idea that they are a conquering, vanquishing nation. The country has made some mistakes and the people there feel bad about those. However, the good far outweighs the bad in that particular column.

It is a young country and it has far surpassed other countries that have had many centuries to get it right. And they did it in a couple of hundred years. They didn't conquer some nation and steal everything and then claim it is theirs. Instead, they opened their doors, invited everyone in and guaranteed certain freedoms to all. When they did, the smartest and brightest showed up and offered their skills, honed their business skills, invented things that the world wanted and sold American products to their contacts in their home countries. A great recipe for success. They had money in their pockets to support other countries with in times of need. The new country became a wonder of the world and that attracted more people. It is no wonder that Americans feel good about what they had become, compared to every other country they could look at.

But as I said, it isn't looking so good now. They have gone too far in guaranteeing rights. They have gone too far in making big business and banking the backbone of the nation. They have gone too far in helping other nations when they really can't afford it. They have gone too far in opening their doors to people who really aren't coming because it is a place to enjoy but instead, are coming because they want to see the end of the place and they know they can live amongst the good people without fear and bring it down. It is time to step back, enjoy the back burner for a while instead of pushing forward so hard. They need to look around and fix the small things that will one day be big things if left unchecked.

But yeah, I can see why they think they are a great nation.

[TongueThaied]

A lot of poisonous nationalistic fervor is racially and/or religiously based. The Nazi's thought Aryans were superior and should take over the world. The Japanese felt the same about their "pure" race during WWII. I hear this sort of thing from Thais everyday and see it on Thai TV.

One good development in the U.S. (which I used to think was bad until the light dawned) is the mulitculturalization that has taken place. People of white European descent are scheduled to become a minority soon. No longer does the claim that "This is a Christian country," have validity. With this state of affairs, there can still be nationalist fervor in the form of Americans sticking togther, but no longer out of racial, cultural or religious identity. The sooner the rest of the world opens its doors (Thailand, for example) and becomes racially, culturally and religiously mixed, the sooner the more poisonous varieties of nationalism will disappear.

Since the U.S. has already done this, it is the best country.

[burgerqueen]

I don't like my neighbours.

[kandahar]

A lot of poisonous nationalistic fervor is racially and/or religiously based. The Nazi's thought Aryans were superior and should take over the world. The Japanese felt the same about their "pure" race during WWII. I hear this sort of thing from Thais everyday and see it on Thai TV.

One good development in the U.S. (which I used to think was bad until the light dawned) is the mulitculturalization that has taken place. People of white European descent are scheduled to become a minority soon. No longer does the claim that "This is a Christian country," have validity. With this state of affairs, there can still be nationalist fervor in the form of Americans sticking togther, but no longer out of racial, cultural or religious identity. The sooner the rest of the world opens its doors (Thailand, for example) and becomes racially, culturally and religiously mixed, the sooner the more poisonous varieties of nationalism will disappear.

Since the U.S. has already done this, it is the best country.

Good post.

[kandahar]

Jingthing does it again! Thought-provoking post

I think nationalism has a kind of rational aspect to it in that it makes sense for groups of people (which is what nations are) to have pride in the way they do things in order for that particular 'way' to thrive and be successful.

That is in a very basic social grouping, the way nations developed and became nation states is when these ideas and cultures came into contact with others, and differences in language, primarily, led to mis-understandings and conflicts.

In order to define a nation state it is necessary to encourage feelings of 'otherness' in that 'they do things differently over there' which leads a group to decide that 'our way is the best way' so that the way that group is organised can thrive.

So, in that sense it is perfectly rational.

Rational doesn't mean healthy. It's another argument completely as to whether or not nationalism is good for the world as a whole. Certainly it has defined many aspects of the world we know today, but there are always people who desire to stretch the boundaries, move across the borders and make contact on a human level and blur those national differences. This is one of the ways our species progresses.

It is, I think, natural for people in any country you care to mention, to compare 'their' way of life to others. It's very difficult to compare a way of life because in order to make a real comparison you would have to rid yourself of your cultural heritage which is impossible.

What we can do, and what often happens, is that when we really meet the 'others' we see that despite our differences we share more than we thought and have the most important things, love, family, desire for happiness and security, in common.

This can be seen in particular in Europe, (probably in many other places too, but Europe is what I know a little about) where for thousands of years, the 'otherness' of language and culture meant that bloody wars would rage, practically non-stop for centuries. In WW1 both the British and the Germans thought 'god is on our side' or gott mit uns'. After that conflict there was an upsurgance of more political ideologies which seemed to try and replace the centuries old religious-based doctrines. This caused even more conflict and, arguably, lead the continents great rivals, Germany and France, to decide that despite the 'other' being the hated enemy of many conflicts, union was the only way forward.

Now, the states of Europe, whilst still different, and still populated by people who regard their state as 'better' are not slaughtering each other. Indeed many share a currency and have borders which are open to each other.

So, is it rational? Yes, I think it is. Is it a good thing? Depends on what it leads you to do.

I think it's part of our social evolution.

A thinking man. Nice contribution to the thread.