20,000 Monks Tipped To Join Red-shirt Rally On March 12

[Jonathanpattaya]

Monks joining the Red Shirts is a development which may galvanise more ordinary Thais than would normally be the case.

I think you'd be surprised how many ordinary Thais are pretty fed up with the sangha as well.

Maybe your right. I know I am.

[ballpoint]

Last time they called for people to bring their families, this time they're calling for monks. To get involved in a potentially violent situation. It doesn't take too great a leap of intuition to work out why they make these calls, they are playing lethal games with peoples lives in order to gain sympathy for one cowardly thieving accessory to murder.

[Scott]

Another post has been deleted. Please use the proper names of politicians.

[brahmburgers]

Understand the Saffron Revolution in Burma, where the Military butchers are in charge, but Theravayda Monks in Thailand joining the UDD is rather disturbing .....is there something I do not understand with this issue...I spent 4 wonderful years in Chiangmai teaching at a Buddhist University, this news concerns me..... Dukkha

What is a "Buddhist University" ? Is it "Buddhist" or a "University" ? I am really curious to know if you are a farang and what you "taught" there.

Are you insinuating that a farang is somehow not be able to lecture about Buddhism? That's a presumptuous idea. There are a plethora of westerners who are not only well-versed on Buddhism, but live it - arguable in a truer way than many orientals who 'talk the talk,' but don't 'walk the walk.' Buddhism has traditionally and consistently gone through renewals - from one epoch/culture/venue to another. Just as one type of Buddhist practice gets overly stratified and orthodox and stilted, another type will come along which is fresh, vibrant, and truer to the Buddha's teachings.

If some head monks in Thailand are planning to direct their flock to march in a hyper-political rally, dressed in robes, then that's troubling for some folks who perceive that the Sangha should remain non-political - at least to the extent of not being identified with a sometimes-violent movement that's being manipulated by one very greedy and untrustworthy man.

[khunjamespittman]

i see yesterday mark had one of Taskins friends arrested who is a General in the army, all very publicly with loads of armed commandos around, why could they not have done it in a more discreet manner. i admit i am biased towards the PPP i personally dont like the term red shirts and yellow shirts, for me its the democrats and PPP. they are the plotitians involved. i used to be pro Marks lot but he is just a front man for a gangster from down south. a lot of the tv programmes at the moment are making jokes about him being the puppet. taskin was his own man and second to none as a business man and leader. from a personnel point of view my father in law is on a life support machine at the moment, all for 30 baht, without Taskins polocies he would be dead. try telling his family Taskin was no good.

basically if all PPP polotitions were counted and all the Democrats were counted there would be more PPP members, in my eyes that makes them the people who should be leading the hung parliament.

as for the issue of the Monks protesting a quick google search will show that Monks have always joined in protest, including China,India, Tibet,Burma etc etc.

come on you REDS

whoops just realised its Sunday, i am going to get a hammering from all the guys sat in front of PCs back at home in the cold.

It wasn't the general being arrested, but it was that general who made it a spectacle.

Also,

if you have Chalerm on your team calling Suthep a southern gangster gets ZERO traction.

Apples and Rose Apples, just from a different quadrant of the compass.

PTP is idiot sons and daughters , ineffectuals, and post-TRT gangsters and not much else.

PPP does not exist, so calling it the balance to the Dems is rather out of touch.

Thaksin the business man

is proved to be second to MANY when he doesn't have a political / family provided monopoly to profit on.

Sorry Nalak your points are lost.

What a rediculous post! Clearly "No beef there". Clearly delusional! People please at least try to put a trace of reality into the posts.

[Foggy Bottom]

And another, somewhat related, article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonthi_Boonya...n#Personal_life

General (Ret.) Sonthi Boonyaratglin is former Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army and former head of the Council for National Security, the military junta that ruled the kingdom ... On 19 September 2006, he became the de facto head of government of Thailand after overthrowing the elected government in a coup d'état.

Sonthi has two concurrent wives. He registered to marry his first wife, Sukanya, when he was a lieutenant and registered to a second wife, Piyada, when he was a captain. He currently lives with both women. Bigamy is illegal in Thailand, and is punishable with a jail term. However, Interior Minister Aree Wongsaraya defended Sonthi, claiming that it was a personal matter. He boasted that he himself had six wives.

Like I said, somewhat related ..but mainly just an amusing example of Thailand's double standards.

Off topic, but .... full marks to both of them if they've been able to do that and keep their wedding tackle attached to their persons - most Thai women nowadays would have administered an immediate dickectomy at the merest hint of a potential second wife joining the family.

Kudos to their people management skills

[DickFarang]

Understand the Saffron Revolution in Burma, where the Military butchers are in charge, but Theravayda Monks in Thailand joining the UDD is rather disturbing .....is there something I do not understand with this issue...I spent 4 wonderful years in Chiangmai teaching at a Buddhist University, this news concerns me..... Dukkha

What is a "Buddhist University" ? Is it "Buddhist" or a "University" ? I am really curious to know if you are a farang and what you "taught" there.

Are you insinuating that a farang is somehow not be able to lecture about Buddhism? That's a presumptuous idea. There are a plethora of westerners who are not only well-versed on Buddhism, but live it - arguable in a truer way than many orientals who 'talk the talk,' but don't 'walk the walk.' Buddhism has traditionally and consistently gone through renewals - from one epoch/culture/venue to another. Just as one type of Buddhist practice gets overly stratified and orthodox and stilted, another type will come along which is fresh, vibrant, and truer to the Buddha's teachings.

If some head monks in Thailand are planning to direct their flock to march in a hyper-political rally, dressed in robes, then that's troubling for some folks who perceive that the Sangha should remain non-political - at least to the extent of not being identified with a sometimes-violent movement that's being manipulated by one very greedy and untrustworthy man.

What I wanted to express is that Buddhism IMHO is a religion and has its merits as such.

But not any religion is “scientific” and as such I do not see the link “Buddhist + University”.

The combination makes me think of the so called creationists, who deny Darwinism, which is nowadays largely accepted by most Christians.

As to farangs teaching in LOS, I can only imagine something like mathematics, sciences or languages.

As to farang “Buddhists”, once again IMHO they are not different from Thai people walking around with fashionable crucifixes without knowing the meaning of it.

Perhaps a “continental” view.

[DickFarang]

And another, somewhat related, article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonthi_Boonya...n#Personal_life

General (Ret.) Sonthi Boonyaratglin is former Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army and former head of the Council for National Security, the military junta that ruled the kingdom ... On 19 September 2006, he became the de facto head of government of Thailand after overthrowing the elected government in a coup d'état.

Sonthi has two concurrent wives. He registered to marry his first wife, Sukanya, when he was a lieutenant and registered to a second wife, Piyada, when he was a captain. He currently lives with both women. Bigamy is illegal in Thailand, and is punishable with a jail term. However, Interior Minister Aree Wongsaraya defended Sonthi, claiming that it was a personal matter. He boasted that he himself had six wives.

Like I said, somewhat related ..but mainly just an amusing example of Thailand's double standards.

Off topic, but .... full marks to both of them if they've been able to do that and keep their wedding tackle attached to their persons - most Thai women nowadays would have administered an immediate dickectomy at the merest hint of a potential second wife joining the family.

Kudos to their people management skills

When you write “most Thai women nowadays”, I guess you are not talking about women belonging to a certain religion, we should not name here.

[HS Mauberley]

What I wanted to express is that Buddhism IMHO is a religion and has its merits as such.

But not any religion is “scientific” and as such I do not see the link “Buddhist + University”.

The combination makes me think of the so called creationists, who deny Darwinism, which is nowadays largely accepted by most Christians.

Huh? A university is somewhere you go to study. This can include, for example, Theology or Religious Studies - if you had gone to one, you might know this.

As to farang “Buddhists”, once again IMHO they are not different from Thai people walking around with fashionable crucifixes without knowing the meaning of it.

Yeah, right. All those ordained foreigners know jack shit about Buddhism - you've got to have slitty eyes to be a good Buddhist, dontchaknow.

Edited March 7, 2010 by HS Mauberley

[Foggy Bottom]

Off topic, but .... full marks to both of them if they've been able to do that and keep their wedding tackle attached to their persons - most Thai women nowadays would have administered an immediate dickectomy at the merest hint of a potential second wife joining the family.

Kudos to their people management skills

When you write “most Thai women nowadays”, I guess you are not talking about women belonging to a certain religion, we should not name here.

Ah but - according to government issued stats, less than 10% of Thais are non-Buddhist, so the statement of "most Thai women" holds true.

Still waiting to hear if anyone else has had ordainment parties in their rural (pro-Thaksin) villages this weekend - would be interesting to know.

[animatic]

What a rediculous post!

Yes, REDiculous fit perfectly..

Ridicule of said ridiculousness

followed soon there after.

Edited March 7, 2010 by animatic

[DickFarang]

Blazes- please outline the programs the Reds have proposed to close this imbalance that so troubles everyone. What are their plans for education? Health care? Increasing minimum wage? Dealing with China cutting off the Mekong River? Farm subsidies? Please enlighten us. And again, I want a report from the one who tells Chalerm and his family you are going to re-distribute his wealth.

I don't know...you tell me...after you have neatly side-stepped the main issue: is there a case for "revolution" (however defined...if only to define it as "radical" , that is, a root and branch change in the way this 'democracy" works).

Or should I assume, from your list of questions, that you are in favour (I hope so) of radical changes (for the better, however defined) to education, health care, minimum wage, Foreign relations, farm subsidies, and last but most important, the re-distribution of wealth?

I haven't sidestepped anything. Are there inequities? In what country are there not? Do those inequities justify the violent overthrow of the government or would the country be better served by waiting for an election? Or will you invoke the "they did a coup so we can do a revolution" argument? Anyway, its debatable whether the situation in Thailand is so dire that a French style revolution (where the revolutionaries have no plan other than off with their heads) is warranted. I ask what the Reds plan is because I have never heard a plan, other than to pardon Thaksin and get his money back. I have never heard them talk about anything positive. I thought maybe you had and could open my eyes. But obviously you haven't heard their plans either. Are you just going on blind trust that they will make things better? What about their wealth re-distribution plan? Where does it start? Where does it end? Is it going to be like Zimbabwe or Cambodia'sin 1975? Or Germany's in the 1930's? And again, I'm serious, do you think Chalerm is going to let his wealth be re-distributed? Cause he's in line to be PM IF a UDD backed government is elected. Shouldn't he and Thaksin be leading by example? Come to think of it, I have never heard "wealth distribution" mentioned by by any Red leader in terms of their own holdings - only the money of "the elite". Oh, we're back to sounding like the French Revolution again. hmmmm

When you compare to the French Revolution, it is an understatement to say that the sans-culottes were not very nice to the clergy.

[anotherpeter]

The combination makes me think of the so called creationists, who deny Darwinism, which is nowadays largely accepted by most Christians.

As to farang “Buddhists”, once again IMHO they are not different from Thai people walking around with fashionable crucifixes without knowing the meaning of it.

Perhaps a “continental” view.

I think a completely stupid and ignorant view.

Creationists are a very small percentage of Christians (but quite vocal) mainly based in the US.

Farangs who decide to be Buddhist would probably know a lot more about Buddhism than many Thai's who become monks just because the family expect them to.

[DickFarang]

Off topic, but .... full marks to both of them if they've been able to do that and keep their wedding tackle attached to their persons - most Thai women nowadays would have administered an immediate dickectomy at the merest hint of a potential second wife joining the family.

Kudos to their people management skills

When you write "most Thai women nowadays", I guess you are not talking about women belonging to a certain religion, we should not name here.

Ah but - according to government issued stats, less than 10% of Thais are non-Buddhist, so the statement of "most Thai women" holds true.

Still waiting to hear if anyone else has had ordainment parties in their rural (pro-Thaksin) villages this weekend - would be interesting to know.

You missed the point of the original post about bigamy being illegal in Thailand ... except for some people.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Just few words about the French revolution which has been evoked

1. Before the Revolution, the parliament was comprising 3 thirds: one Noble class, second the Clergy, third Common people with the fact that all the youngest members of Noble family were trying to do a "career" in the Clergy as they were gotten no inheritage. So, the clergy class was directly involved in politics and was an objective allied of the Noble Class. I do not see such a situation in Thailand. The comparison is falling short.

2. At the very beginning, it was "bon enfant", a peaceful demonstration, Parisians going to Versailles castle singing and requesting "bread" because the conditions of life were dramatic; poor crops in1789 and year before, very low income of people. Yes, if the drought issue, the rice price and the income issues of Northern people are not tackled seriously and quickly, then you will be able to make a parallel with the French background of 1789 which had leaded to the Revolution.

3. The Revolution leaders were unknown at the beginning, it has been during the demonstrations that they revealed themselves. situation very different from today organised demonstration by well known politicians. The Revolution started from the Core of Paris...

4. The French Revolution has been a process which has overpassed the initial will of first protesters.

Just few details...

[Siripon]

What makes this original announcement so derisory with its promise of monks accompanying the people so the authorities can't hurt them, is this same man, Arisaman, was on stage in Khon Kaen last month telling the people to come to Bangkok with an empty bottle- and not to bother filling it with petrol in Khon Kaen because there will be plenty of places to do that in Bangkok!

Absolutely laughable in his stupidity.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Siripon

[Jingthing]

The combination makes me think of the so called creationists, who deny Darwinism, which is nowadays largely accepted by most Christians.

As to farang “Buddhists”, once again IMHO they are not different from Thai people walking around with fashionable crucifixes without knowing the meaning of it.

Perhaps a “continental” view.

I think a completely stupid and ignorant view.

Creationists are a very small percentage of Christians (but quite vocal) mainly based in the US.

Farangs who decide to be Buddhist would probably know a lot more about Buddhism than many Thai's who become monks just because the family expect them to.

Nope. You're wrong.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb...tionism-science

That is the official position, but the reality is fuzzier. A survey last year suggested that 16% of American science teachers are creationist, and there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that creationism is taught, or at least discussed, in US schools. When we met recently, John Mackay, the founder and international director of Creation Research, told me he had lectured in many state schools in the US. Moreover, there is a large Christian school and university sector in the US, as well as a burgeoning home education sector which is to a large extent religiously oriented. So, whatever the American judicial system may decree and the science lobby may wish, creationism is being taught to children, in accordance no doubt with the wishes of the 45% of those who in a Gallup poll in the US in 2001 identified themselves as creationist (choosing, from several options, the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so" as the one closest to their own view).

[Scott]

This thread is not about bigamy or creationists in the US.

Stay on topic please.

[animatic]

4. The French Revolution has been a process which has overpassed the initial will of first protesters.

And it is just such an out of control overpass into the unknown

which is such as risk in revolutions as Jerry noted.

As Nuttawat, Veera and Jatuporn lose control, due to loose cannons like Sea Dueng,

we don't KNOW who will grab control and how long the might maintain it,

Thaksin, or maybe not, and what ill effects this random chance will bode for ALL Thai people.

President Panlop, anyone? It is theoretically possible. Taking over to 'save the country'.

This is why these street led revolutions are such poor practice, even as demagogues hold it up as a panacea.

Most demagogues have never lived through the collapse of a country, and if so,

are often earliest spit out. Leaving WHOM at the wheel?

Ask the ghosts of Maret or Danton...the eloquient Mirabeau.. Certainly Jatuporn is no Robspiere...

Who could be the Thai Hébert??? none on the scene so far.

Always a crap shoot, rarely an improvement.

Calling Ye (red) Jacobites by name

Your doctrines I declaim I declaim!

Lend and ear, lend and ear!

Your doctrines I declaim, lend and ear!

What is Right, and What is Wrang, by the law, by the law?

What is Right and what is Wrang by the law?

What is Right, and what is Wrang?

A short sword, and a lang,

A weak arm and a strang, for to draw.

What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?

What makes heroic strife famed afar?

What makes heroic strife?

To whet th' assassin's knife,

Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?

Then let your schemes alone, in the state, in the state,

Then let your schemes alone in the state.

Then let your schemes alone,

Adore the rising sun,

And leave a man undone, to his fate.

Edited March 7, 2010 by animatic

[Jerrytheyoung]

JUST AN ISSAN STORY (Amidst plenty similar ones):

In a Nongkai area village, a family find the father dead more exactly he suicided himself by obstructing his mouth with a piece of clothes and by stopping to breathe. The reason of the suicide: he cannot feed his family....

There is a huge imbalance between Bangkokians and Issaners. If there is no correction to this situation, anything may happen because more and more people in Northern Thailand are despairing.

Revolutions are judged through History, we are not yet in such a scenario (And I wish it will be avoided). Let see what happens and if the correct decisions are taken to defuse this situation....

[Squigy]

JUST AN ISSAN STORY (Amidst plenty similar ones):

In a Nongkai area village, a family find the father dead more exactly he suicided himself by obstructing his mouth with a piece of clothes and by stopping to breathe. The reason of the suicide: he cannot feed his family....

There is a huge imbalance between Bangkokians and Issaners. If there is no correction to this situation, anything may happen because more and more people in Northern Thailand are despairing.

Revolutions are judged through History, we are not yet in such a scenario (And I wish it will be avoided). Let see what happens and if the correct decisions are taken to defuse this situation....

Once again a sad story. This will happen in my village soon. We have people who are that desperate as well. My neighbours who have no money nor land are supported by me every day of the week. It is sad to see the kids so malnurished and always at the clinic getting some candy to try and make them better.

People in bangkok and other major cities in Thailand really have no idea what is happening in the NE.

[brahmburgers]

JUST AN ISSAN STORY (Amidst plenty similar ones):

In a Nongkai area village, a family find the father dead more exactly he suicided himself by obstructing his mouth with a piece of clothes and by stopping to breathe. The reason of the suicide: he cannot feed his family....

There is a huge imbalance between Bangkokians and Issaners. If there is no correction to this situation, anything may happen because more and more people in Northern Thailand are despairing.

Revolutions are judged through History, we are not yet in such a scenario (And I wish it will be avoided). Let see what happens and if the correct decisions are taken to defuse this situation....

Suicide is always a sad scenario. There are farmers in Australia committing it because of falling on hard times. People in every country and every walk of life have been known to do it. American soldiers do it, both during combat tours, and right after returning home. In the US, the highest % of suicides occur with psychiatrists, who are certainly not among the poor, so poverty is not an exclusive cause.

All of us should keep an eye out for people we know who may be on the brink. One of the uses of religion should be for adherents to gain the mental strength/knowledge to avoid suicide and the depression that often leads to it. I just got a tel.call from a friend in Canada who is contemplating it. What can I do from the other side of the world? I said what I could, but that's about it.

[anotherpeter]

People in bangkok and other major cities in Thailand really have no idea what is happening in the NE.

(Off topic ... I know)

I don't know what it is really like in the NE, even though my GFs family lives up that way. But they have a house and some land to work, and my GF has a uni/college degree.

So, what is the answer? Obviously education should be pretty high on the agenda, but when money is tight, that is the first thing that falls by the wayside.

How do you get them money, without just handing it out? How do you get them out of poverty?

What should the current/next government (without bringing the current politics into the discussion) do to actually solve the problem?

[papermate]

Has even 1 of the alleged "20,000" monks made any sort of public announcement on this matter?

All I seem to read about is Arisman is saying that 20,000 monks will join the rally.

Has there been any confirmation of that from any of the monks themselves?

[hammered]

Has even 1 of the alleged "20,000" monks made any sort of public announcement on this matter?

All I seem to read about is Arisman is saying that 20,000 monks will join the rally.

Has there been any confirmation of that from any of the monks themselves?

Arisaman also told people of khon kaen to bring bottles to bangkok where petrol would be available

[Meridian007]

Has even 1 of the alleged "20,000" monks made any sort of public announcement on this matter?

All I seem to read about is Arisman is saying that 20,000 monks will join the rally.

Has there been any confirmation of that from any of the monks themselves?

I think we have already heard from "them", because I think what Foggy Bottom eluded to is correct.

Still waiting to hear if anyone else has had ordainment parties in their rural (pro-Thaksin) villages this weekend - would be interesting to know.

Any "monk" who shows up to this is then by definition NOT a Buddhist monk. The reds are merely trying to garner international support by making this rally seem similar to the outcry of the monks in Myanmar a couple of years ago about the human rights abuses that were going on in that country. The Thai government is not killing or torturing its population for dissent, so the motive of any "monk" coming to this protest, is to rally for Thaksin's money, (although it isn't his), or for a change in the elites, (from the current military and other elites, to Thaksin's cronies), at the top of the heap under a false banner of democracy.

It makes me angry that the reds would abuse a revered institution like the monkhood to forward Thaksin's agenda. If this was about rights of the poor, and a change from the inequality between the elites and working class, I would support it. It is obviously about sour grapes from Thaksin, who is trying a final push with everything he has to take over this country by force.

[scorecard]

it's a significant development, if the monks do join in the rally. They migh tip off the change not by numbers, but by giving a moral support to the cause.

If the deputy PM is warning monks against participation, means that temples are really planning to be in Bangkok and warnings, like those, will make them even more determined to show their will.

I asked my Thai colleagues about the 'credibility' of the monks who might join this protest. My colleagues didn't want to give a direct answer (very Thai), but there was a strong concensues on the following:

- Most Thais know very well that only a small percentage of monks are deeply knowledgabe about the lord buddha's philosophies and teachings.

- Many temples have numerous monks who are there but don't really teach.

- Many temples have numerous monks who are easily swayed by clever talk.

Well let's be honest, you could apply the same 'profile' to any 'religion'.

[scorecard]

People in bangkok and other major cities in Thailand really have no idea what is happening in the NE.

(Off topic ... I know)

I don't know what it is really like in the NE, even though my GFs family lives up that way. But they have a house and some land to work, and my GF has a uni/college degree.

So, what is the answer? Obviously education should be pretty high on the agenda, but when money is tight, that is the first thing that falls by the wayside.

How do you get them money, without just handing it out? How do you get them out of poverty?

What should the current/next government (without bringing the current politics into the discussion) do to actually solve the problem?

Sure, poverty is bad, really bad, but let's please keep this in a balanced perspective.

The rural poor have been very poor (I say those words very carefully and very deliberately) for many decades and it's not purely the fault of the so called elites. And I'm not suggestiong that because it's been like this for decades it's therefore OK.

There are many parts to this puzzle and one dominant 'part' of the puzzle is the ruthless nasty greedy corrupt and incapable 'politicians' (read leeches and thieves) from the Essan area and from some parts of the North of thailand. And other parts of Thailand also. And please note these are not the so called 'elites' whom many people are currently trying to blame for everything.

These incapable but ruthless 'politicians' have controlled, manipulated, and intimidated the poor for decades, and have had no hesitation to do so.

They have no morals and no values, they have cleverly, over decades, suddenly popped up with another bag of rice, a 40 Baht telephone card, etc., just at the right time. The nasty ruthless manipulating 'saviors' (read thaksin).

Manipulation of poor helpless human beings / fellow Thais, at it's worst.

But what seems to have been foprgotten very quickly is that the current government has already announced (some weeks ago) a master plan to reduce the income gap and to gain a better spread of wealth for all Thais and to move towards a welfare society.

And the current government have taken the initiative to get a different, and credible, task force into place to massively improve education.

It would be nice if it all happened tomorrow but unfortunately it will take time. Did Thaksin do any of this? No, he gave populist hands outs - he bought votes, and at the same time raided the coffers very big time, and murdered 2,500 fellow Thais with no legal process.

Personally I believe Abhisit and Korn will take Thailand into a new and more equitable future. But at the same time I despair that they don't communicate very well.

On the other hand Abhisit has recently sacked several high ranking ministerial officials and is definitely getting tougher with the military.

Unfortunately there is no totally clean political party, and I suggest that the Democrats (definitely with baggage) are probably the cleanest of them all (just my opinion).

The reality is that Abhisit and Korn have to work from a party framework, treading carefully all the time through a minefield. At the time they have to work with a coalition group who are salivating to get their hands into the spoils - the bus saga is the obvious example. But without the coalition we revert quickly to the chalerm mob.

Is the answer to a more balanced, equitable, fairer Thailand:

- Chalerm as PM? (As a puppet for thaksin, and chalerm has already said publically many times that he will forceably reverse (by legislation) the decisions of the supreme court in terms of thaksins convictions and grant a pardon - never mind the law and precedent on this subject, and never mind any respect for you know who. And he has already announced that they will reinstate the 2006 constition - which makes vote buying and graft as easy as a yawn. And they will reverse the ban on the 250 or so TRT / PPP etc., people for massive well proven vote buying. And of course such a reversal will give them the opportunity to sue for wrongful conviction and again raid the coffers of Thailand big time. And of course a renewal of open and blatant nepotism.)

- Sae Daeng as Defence Minister? Frightening, has his own personal army, lawlessness on the horizon!

- Jatuporn as Foreign Minister? Very murky and violent past, mother of all liars. Frightening? New police chief in cahoots with thaksin - frightening

- Arisman as Economic Minister? He can count petrol bombs - frightening?

- Sudarat as Health Minister? The ministry which she ran before, the same ministry which has risen massively up the corruption scale - frightening.

- The son of 'the master' as Minister for Small Business. After all he's already had 4 or 5 quick and big business failures and he's learnt the answer - just ask daddy to fund another failure - but of course he's not an elite - whatever 'elite' means)

Would you like to see the above scenario?. I sincerely hope your answer is NO!

Edited March 8, 2010 by scorecard

[animatic]

So, what is the answer? ...

...Obviously education should be pretty high on the agenda,....

...What should the current/next government (without bringing the current politics into the discussion) do to actually solve the problem?

Sure, poverty is bad, really bad, but let's please keep this in a balanced perspective.

The rural poor have been very poor (I say those words very carefully and very deliberately) for many decades and it's not purely the fault of the so called elites. And I'm not suggesting that because it's been like this for decades it's therefore OK.

There are many parts to this puzzle and one dominant 'part' of the puzzle is the ruthless nasty greedy corrupt and incapable 'politicians' (read leeches and thieves) from the Essan area and from some parts of the North of thailand.

And other parts of Thailand also. And please note these are not the so called 'elites' whom many people are currently trying to blame for everything.

These incapable but ruthless 'politicians' have controlled, manipulated, and intimidated the poor for decades, and have had no hesitation to do so.

They have no morals and no values, they have cleverly, over decades, suddenly popped up with another bag of rice, a 40 Baht telephone card, etc., just at the right time. The nasty ruthless manipulating 'saviors' (read thaksin).

Manipulation of poor helpless human beings / fellow Thais, at it's worst.

But what seems to have been forgotten very quickly is that the current government has already announced (some weeks ago) a master plan to reduce the income gap and to gain a better spread of wealth for all Thais and to move towards a welfare society.

And the current government have taken the initiative to get a different, and credible, task force into place to massively improve education.

It would be nice if it all happened tomorrow but unfortunately it will take time. Did Thaksin do any of this? No, he gave populist hands outs - he bought votes, and at the same time raided the coffers very big time, and murdered 2,500 fellow Thais with no legal process.

Personally I believe Abhisit and Korn will take Thailand into a new and more equitable future. But at the same time I despair that they don't communicate very well.

On the other hand Abhisit has recently sacked several high ranking ministerial officials and is definitely getting tougher with the military.

Unfortunately there is no totally clean political party, and I suggest that the Democrats (definitely with baggage) are probably the cleanest of them all (just my opinion).

The reality is that Abhisit and Korn have to work from a party framework, treading carefully all the time through a minefield. At the time they have to work with a coalition group who are salivating to get their hands into the spoils - the bus saga is the obvious example. But without the coalition we revert quickly to the chalerm mob.

Is the answer to a more balanced, equitable, fairer Thailand:

- Chalerm as PM? (As a puppet for thaksin, and chalerm has already said publically many times that he will forceably reverse (by legislation) the decisions of the supreme court in terms of thaksins convictions and grant a pardon - never mind the law and precedent on this subject, and never mind any respect for you know who. And he has already announced that they will reinstate the 2006 constition - which makes vote buying and graft as easy as a yawn. And they will reverse the ban on the 250 or so TRT / PPP etc., people for massive well proven vote buying. And of course such a reversal will give them the opportunity to sue for wrongful conviction and again raid the coffers of Thailand big time. And of course a renewal of open and blatant nepotism.)

- Sae Daeng as Defence Minister? Frightening, has his own personal army, lawlessness on the horizon!

- Jatuporn as Foreign Minister? Very murky and violent past, mother of all liars. Frightening? New police chief in cahoots with thaksin - frightening

- Arisman as Economic Minister? He can count petrol bombs - frightening?

- Sudarat as Health Minister? The ministry which she ran before, the same ministry which has risen massively up the corruption scale - frightening.

- The son of 'the master' as Minister for Small Business. After all he's already had 4 or 5 quick and big business failures and he's learnt the answer - just ask daddy to fund another failure - but of course he's not an elite - whatever 'elite' means)

Would you like to see the above scenario?. I sincerely hope your answer is NO!

Poverty levels have been high in these areas for centuries, not just decades.

It's partly location and lack of infrastructure,

but also the lions share of what Scorecard has just said.

The last several decades when issues of transport logisitcs and water management

and communications HAVE been greatly improved, if not solved,

the puyai cliques have kept a foot down on the necks of their workers.

These are the Wannabe-Elites that have truly kept the Issanese on their knees.

The so called Bangkok Elites, are known to have financed and managed the LARGE engines that have brought

MANY PARTS of Thailand into the 20th century and some into the 21st also. The real movers and shakers who have

lifted the economy using invested capital, and that folks is the ONLY way shown to work,

or we'd all be buying Soviet grain, TVs and cars these days...

Not the political classes who are over run with the control freaks trying to hold their little hedgmonies

and monopolies and become uber elites themselves, on the backs of their political pawns up country.

Thaksin was brilliant in that he harvested those scrabbling under-card wanna be elites of bad business sense,

and harnessed them AND their fiefdoms of controllable voters, to HIS larger engine of financial accrual.

Except it could never hold not take the strain, since his constitute parts wanted to be the controllers,

as much as he did...

But left on their own to their own devices, with out adequate organization and IDEAS....

we are left with the laundry list of drek at the bottom of scorecards posting.

God help us all if this lame crew controls all and brings back their deposed liege lords bent on revenge.

Edited March 8, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

So, what is the answer? ...

...Obviously education should be pretty high on the agenda,....

...What should the current/next government (without bringing the current politics into the discussion) do to actually solve the problem?

Sure, poverty is bad, really bad, but let's please keep this in a balanced perspective.

The rural poor have been very poor (I say those words very carefully and very deliberately) for many decades and it's not purely the fault of the so called elites. And I'm not suggesting that because it's been like this for decades it's therefore OK.

There are many parts to this puzzle and one dominant 'part' of the puzzle is the ruthless nasty greedy corrupt and incapable 'politicians' (read leeches and thieves) from the Essan area and from some parts of the North of thailand.

And other parts of Thailand also. And please note these are not the so called 'elites' whom many people are currently trying to blame for everything.

These incapable but ruthless 'politicians' have controlled, manipulated, and intimidated the poor for decades, and have had no hesitation to do so.

They have no morals and no values, they have cleverly, over decades, suddenly popped up with another bag of rice, a 40 Baht telephone card, etc., just at the right time. The nasty ruthless manipulating 'saviors' (read thaksin).

Manipulation of poor helpless human beings / fellow Thais, at it's worst.

But what seems to have been forgotten very quickly is that the current government has already announced (some weeks ago) a master plan to reduce the income gap and to gain a better spread of wealth for all Thais and to move towards a welfare society.

And the current government have taken the initiative to get a different, and credible, task force into place to massively improve education.

It would be nice if it all happened tomorrow but unfortunately it will take time. Did Thaksin do any of this? No, he gave populist hands outs - he bought votes, and at the same time raided the coffers very big time, and murdered 2,500 fellow Thais with no legal process.

Personally I believe Abhisit and Korn will take Thailand into a new and more equitable future. But at the same time I despair that they don't communicate very well.

On the other hand Abhisit has recently sacked several high ranking ministerial officials and is definitely getting tougher with the military.

Unfortunately there is no totally clean political party, and I suggest that the Democrats (definitely with baggage) are probably the cleanest of them all (just my opinion).

The reality is that Abhisit and Korn have to work from a party framework, treading carefully all the time through a minefield. At the time they have to work with a coalition group who are salivating to get their hands into the spoils - the bus saga is the obvious example. But without the coalition we revert quickly to the chalerm mob.

Is the answer to a more balanced, equitable, fairer Thailand:

- Chalerm as PM? (As a puppet for thaksin, and chalerm has already said publically many times that he will forceably reverse (by legislation) the decisions of the supreme court in terms of thaksins convictions and grant a pardon - never mind the law and precedent on this subject, and never mind any respect for you know who. And he has already announced that they will reinstate the 2006 constition - which makes vote buying and graft as easy as a yawn. And they will reverse the ban on the 250 or so TRT / PPP etc., people for massive well proven vote buying. And of course such a reversal will give them the opportunity to sue for wrongful conviction and again raid the coffers of Thailand big time. And of course a renewal of open and blatant nepotism.)

- Sae Daeng as Defence Minister? Frightening, has his own personal army, lawlessness on the horizon!

- Jatuporn as Foreign Minister? Very murky and violent past, mother of all liars. Frightening? New police chief in cahoots with thaksin - frightening

- Arisman as Economic Minister? He can count petrol bombs - frightening?

- Sudarat as Health Minister? The ministry which she ran before, the same ministry which has risen massively up the corruption scale - frightening.

- The son of 'the master' as Minister for Small Business. After all he's already had 4 or 5 quick and big business failures and he's learnt the answer - just ask daddy to fund another failure - but of course he's not an elite - whatever 'elite' means)

Would you like to see the above scenario?. I sincerely hope your answer is NO!

Poverty levels have been high in these areas for centuries, not just decades.

It's partly location and lack of infrastructure,

but also the lions share of what Scorecard has just said.

The last several decades when issues of transport logisitcs and water management

and communications HAVE been greatly improved, if not solved,

the puyai cliques have kept a foot down on the necks of their workers.

These are the Wannabe-Elites that have truly kept the Issanese on their knees.

The so called Bangkok Elites, are known to have financed and managed the LARGE engines that have brought

MANY PARTS of Thailand into the 20th century and some into the 21st also. The real movers and shakers who have

lifted the economy using invested capital, and that folks is the ONLY way shown to work,

or we'd all be buying Soviet grain, TVs and cars these days...

Not the political classes who are over run with the control freaks trying to hold their little hedgmonies

and monopolies and become uber elites themselves, on the backs of their political pawns up country.

Thaksin was brilliant in that he harvested those scrabbling under-card wanna be elites of bad business sense,

and harnessed them AND their fiefdoms of controllable voters, to HIS larger engine of financial accrual.

Except it could never hold not take the strain, since his constitute parts wanted to be the controllers,

as much as he did...

But left on their own to their own devices, with out adequate organization and IDEAS....

we are left with the laundry list of drek at the bottom of scorecards posting.

God help us all if this lame crew controls all and brings back their deposed liege lords bent on revenge.

Thankyou ... good analysis.

Any (constructive) thoughts from anyone else?