Anti-gay Laws And The Politics Of Disgust

[Jingthing]

Basically, I started this thread because I think many people who have been dealing with anti-gay situations in many countries will find the linked article of interest. While it is US-centric, US style homophobia is very similar to homophobia in many other countries. It is also related here to other struggles such as the Nazis view of Jews, and the black civil rights movement in the US.

Welcome to Martha Nussbaum's politics of disgust: an America in which national policy can be discussed at the level of Beavis and Butthead, chasing each other around in circles with a stick that once touched poop.

http://www.slate.com/id/2246892

Edited March 10, 2010 by Jingthing

[elkangorito]

Hi JT.

Although I can see where you're coming from, I'd sooner read a few Patricia Nell Warren novels.

Basically, the same crap is being regurgitated again & again & again with these homophobic <deleted>. Unfortunately, the "homophobic word" is still successfully passed on to many a "sheep"...this includes people in Thailand.

[endure]

"Perkins noted that he had showered together with 80 other men during his own time in the military, and he'd feel threatened by a gay man showering there with him."

How did he know that he wasn't?

[isanbirder]

Leave the dirt with those who churn it out, Jingthing. Don't give them the satisfaction of taking any notice of them.

[phetaroi]

I think "we" need to be more thoughtful about this topic. It seems as if it's one where "we" believe everything is all black or white, and we oversimplify the situation.

Just for starters, I think there's often a huge difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person who has certain moral beliefs.

[jchfriis]

I don't see the difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person. They are very often the same person.

I think "we" need to be more thoughtful about this topic. It seems as if it's one where "we" believe everything is all black or white, and we oversimplify the situation.

Just for starters, I think there's often a huge difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person who has certain moral beliefs.

[Jingthing]

Leave the dirt with those who churn it out, Jingthing. Don't give them the satisfaction of taking any notice of them.

That's kind of silly because the people playing with politics of disgust are the ones who have perpetuated the anti-gay policies. People should just ignore that and accept oppression? I don't think so. The article is another way at looking at how this has happened and even offers hope and a solution.

[phetaroi]

I don't see the difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person. They are very often the same person.

So, they shouldn't stereotype us, but we (in this case -- you) should stereotype them.

Okay, got it.

[Jingthing]

Religious dogma is actually very tangential to the issues brought up in the article.

[isanbirder]

Leave the dirt with those who churn it out, Jingthing. Don't give them the satisfaction of taking any notice of them.

That's kind of silly because the people playing with politics of disgust are the ones who have perpetuated the anti-gay policies. People should just ignore that and accept oppression? I don't think so. The article is another way at looking at how this has happened and even offers hope and a solution.

I don't know the publication Slate, but I guess it's American. The US is, sadly, known for the proliferation of lunatic fringes. But this is not our direct concern; we live in Thailand, where discrimination is fortunately minimal (though it exists). I think we should be looking at our gayness in a more positive way, for example lobbying for civil partnership laws. After all, Thailand has had at least two gay Prime Ministers, possibly more. I am however opposed to Gay Pride events, as I think they stir up feeling against us, and do nothing to help our 'cause'. By the way, I am openly gay and Christian... they're not incompatible.

[Jingthing]

Leave the dirt with those who churn it out, Jingthing. Don't give them the satisfaction of taking any notice of them.

That's kind of silly because the people playing with politics of disgust are the ones who have perpetuated the anti-gay policies. People should just ignore that and accept oppression? I don't think so. The article is another way at looking at how this has happened and even offers hope and a solution.

I don't know the publication Slate, but I guess it's American. The US is, sadly, known for the proliferation of lunatic fringes. But this is not our direct concern; we live in Thailand, where discrimination is fortunately minimal (though it exists). I think we should be looking at our gayness in a more positive way, for example lobbying for civil partnership laws. After all, Thailand has had at least two gay Prime Ministers, possibly more. I am however opposed to Gay Pride events, as I think they stir up feeling against us, and do nothing to help our 'cause'. By the way, I am openly gay and Christian... they're not incompatible.

Many readers here do not live in Thailand. Discussion here is not restricted to Thai only topics. I would agree that the anti-gay policies in Thailand are different than in the west. I don't understand the root of them very well and I would also question whether the politics of disgust applies here either. I am slightly nauseated by your suggestion we must always focus on the positive. Why? Reminds me of mindless people who come up to you and say SMILE! I also think there is no really good reason to bring Christianity into the politics of disgust thesis of the article, which is what I really wanted people to comment on, the article and politics of disgust. To me this is a fresh approach at looking at at least western homophobia, and I found it fascinating. I also tend to agree with the thesis of the article as it has been my observation over the years that the most virulently homophobic people are those that are totally focused on graphic details of the "dirtyness" of homosexual sex acts. Many of them seem much more obsessed with anal sex than most gay men. Of course, I can't force people to stay on topic.

BTW, any non-gay people reading this. This thread is an object lesson in the diversity within homosexual people. We often have nothing in common at all except our sexual orientation! 100 gays, 100 opinions.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[powderpuff]

Don't ask; don't tell. A very wise policy.

[Jingthing]

Don't ask; don't tell. A very wise policy.

Its really OK if you're straight. Unless you are very cute, no skin off our <deleted>.

[isanbirder]

Leave the dirt with those who churn it out, Jingthing. Don't give them the satisfaction of taking any notice of them.

That's kind of silly because the people playing with politics of disgust are the ones who have perpetuated the anti-gay policies. People should just ignore that and accept oppression? I don't think so. The article is another way at looking at how this has happened and even offers hope and a solution.

I don't know the publication Slate, but I guess it's American. The US is, sadly, known for the proliferation of lunatic fringes. But this is not our direct concern; we live in Thailand, where discrimination is fortunately minimal (though it exists). I think we should be looking at our gayness in a more positive way, for example lobbying for civil partnership laws. After all, Thailand has had at least two gay Prime Ministers, possibly more. I am however opposed to Gay Pride events, as I think they stir up feeling against us, and do nothing to help our 'cause'. By the way, I am openly gay and Christian... they're not incompatible.

Many readers here do not live in Thailand. Discussion here is not restricted to Thai only topics. I would agree that the anti-gay policies in Thailand are different than in the west. I don't understand the root of them very well and I would also question whether the politics of disgust applies here either. I am slightly nauseated by your suggestion we must always focus on the positive. Why? Reminds me of mindless people who come up to you and say SMILE! I also think there is no really good reason to bring Christianity into the politics of disgust thesis of the article, which is what I really wanted people to comment on, the article and politics of disgust. To me this is a fresh approach at looking at at least western homophobia, and I found it fascinating. I also tend to agree with the thesis of the article as it has been my observation over the years that the most virulently homophobic people are those that are totally focused on graphic details of the "dirtyness" of homosexual sex acts. Many of them seem much more obsessed with anal sex than most gay men. Of course, I can't force people to stay on topic.

This is basically a Thai forum, and that's why I tried to bring it back to what happens in Thailand, where there are, as far as I know, no anti-gay laws. But I do agree with the bit you edited out (about the dirtyness of gay acts)... which seems to have resurfaced above! I also agree that Christianity has nothing to do with your topic; I was just commenting on a previous poster's remarks.

[PeaceBlondie]

There's nothing wrong about being gay and Christian. It is contradictory for Christians to hate or kill their enemies.

[isanbirder]

BTW, any non-gay people reading this. This thread is an object lesson in the diversity within homosexual people. We often have nothing in common at all except our sexual orientation! 100 gays, 100 opinions.

We're all just people... and often, I feel, far too ready to emphasise our difference from everyone else.

[Navalator]

I think "we" need to be more thoughtful about this topic. It seems as if it's one where "we" believe everything is all black or white, and we oversimplify the situation.

Just for starters, I think there's often a huge difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person who has certain moral beliefs.

Religious persons ARE mindless homophobes. No huge difference at all.

[Jingthing]

I think "we" need to be more thoughtful about this topic. It seems as if it's one where "we" believe everything is all black or white, and we oversimplify the situation.

Just for starters, I think there's often a huge difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person who has certain moral beliefs.

Religious persons ARE mindless homophobes. No huge difference at all.

Many or perhaps even most are. But not all. For example, Desmond Tutu, a true champion of gay civil rights. However, especially in Africa he is fighting an almost hopeless battle against oppression and hatred --

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0031103341.html

Hate has no place in the house of God. No one should be excluded from our love, our compassion or our concern because of race or gender, faith or ethnicity -- or because of their sexual orientation.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This is basically a Thai forum, and that's why I tried to bring it back to what happens in Thailand, where there are, as far as I know, no anti-gay laws. But I do agree with the bit you edited out (about the dirtyness of gay acts)... which seems to have resurfaced above! I also agree that Christianity has nothing to do with your topic; I was just commenting on a previous poster's remarks.

Denial of equal marriage civil rights is an anti-gay law. Lack of recognition of gay relationships for visa matters is an anti-gay law. I reckon there are others ...

I have no idea what edit you are talking about, can't comment on what isn't there.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[endure]

I think "we" need to be more thoughtful about this topic. It seems as if it's one where "we" believe everything is all black or white, and we oversimplify the situation.

Just for starters, I think there's often a huge difference between a mindless homophobe and a religious person who has certain moral beliefs.

Religious persons ARE mindless homophobes. No huge difference at all.

MCC? Quakers?

[isanbirder]

Religious persons ARE mindless homophobes. No huge difference at all.

Thank you, Navalator. I may be mindless, but I didn't know I was a homophobe!

[isanbirder]

Denial of equal marriage civil rights is an anti-gay law. Lack of recognition of gay relationships for visa matters is an anti-gay law. I reckon there are others ...

The lack of a law is not the same thing as a law. While I agree both these things would be nice to have....!

[PeaceBlondie]

There are over a million American Christians who tolerate gays.

[MrBrad]

More than tolerating us, the Unitarian Universalist churches accept and embrace GLBT persons as equals. Some Presbyterians, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, and even Baptists and others do too.

There are over a million American Christians who tolerate gays.

[PeaceBlondie]

Correct; there are millions of Christians who are accepting of gays in the USA.

[twschw]

And millions that are not.

From the Southernn Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant body in the US, website:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

[phetaroi]

And millions that are not.

From the Southernn Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant body in the US, website:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

You seem to imply that they have no right to their opinion of what defines a moral life.

[PeaceBlondie]

And millions that are not.

From the Southernn Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant body in the US, website:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

You seem to imply that they have no right to their opinion of what defines a moral life.

I don't see that. He's expressing his disagreement about an issue.

[twschw]

You seem to have read more into my post than was there. I was pointing out to PB that there are still many christians who do not accept homosexuals.

The Southern Baptists are free to believe and to worship as they like, that is their right and I would never take that away from them. I also would not take away the right of others to question the SBC beliefs.

It works both ways you see.

[isanbirder]

I would be the first to admit that the majority of Christians are anti-gay, not only in the USA. The Catholic Church is opposed to homosexuality... but there are associations of gay Catholics. Much of the Anglican communion is anti-gay, especially in Africa.... but there is a gay bishop in New England, a Lesbian bishop in California, and there would have been a gay bishop in England if the man concerned had not refused the bishopric as he didn't want to be a stumbling-block to other Christians. None of this is particularly surprising; gay intercourse was only decriminalised in England in the 1950s, I think, and it is still criminal in several African countries (I don't know the situation in the USA). Changes in public opinion take time, and you cannot expect the change from criminal status to full acceptance to be completed in a single lifetime. The Catholic Church in particular is extremely slow to accept change... as a Catholic I regret this, but I'm not surprised at it. This is not really relevant to this thread, but the power structure of the Church is seriously ossified, and its celibate priesthood is terrified of anything to do with sex; hence its anti-gay stance. As a Catholic, you cannot expect me to pay much attention to the Southern Baptists... wasn't it one of their Sunday-school teachers who came up with the immortal line, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me"?