The 2010 Formula One Season

[rixalex]

Maybe, but only Schumacher went so far as to break the rules.

I don't think Schumi would have been the only one, had any of the other drivers also been presented with a chance to gain a place.

Maybe but that's pure speculation. Fact is Schumi was the only one to break the rule and consequently the only one to be sanctioned.

You are missing my point.

I'm not disputing that what Schumi did broke the rule, i'm disputing that the rule makes complete sense. I don't think it does. Either they aren't allowed to race and the SC stays out, or the SC comes in and racing resumes. To have the SC come in but racing to not be allowed is confusing, pointless and daft.

[rixalex]

What part of what i said were you saying "not" to?

This part

it was plainly obvious by the way everyone drove those last few corners that they had resumed racing

I disagree then. I believe that the reason why other drivers didn't make over-taking moves wasn't because everyone was aware of and following the rules, i think it was simply because at Monaco it's almost impossible to pass. As you say it is only speculation, but i think if you look at the way most of the drivers were attacking the last few corners, you can see that they had resumed racing.

[wackysleet]

As I said previously, I did not see the race so can only speculate, accidents and retirements apart, Fernando, like Michael in the past, did a lot of overtaking from the pitlane to get into the points, albeit not the front running cars but the second division, along the way of yesterdays race I'm assuming that Fernando also passed Michael so perhaps Fernando was, a; obeying what he perceived as the rules, b; he was caught napping, but he is a very good racer and has a vast amount of experience, not of course as much as Michael but experience does not mean your a better driver/racer, look at Sebastion as an example.

[WarpSpeed]

It simply makes no scene to start waving GO green flags on the last corner of a race...

Of course this Race we have a problem the ex F1 driver as the Stewart has had a long history with Michael S.

NEW RULE Drivers must now have pen and paper with them to mark each time they pass the finish line, only way to be 100% sure there on the last lap.

For a start it makes no sense to wave any coloured flag at any corner unles the marshalls are reading from the same page as the main stewards who control the race.

Correct, the green should only be displayed on restart by the Start finish line until all cars have crossed to begin the lap.It's not up to corner marshals and if they display it, it should be ignored and anyone like Micheal in this case who doesn't should be penalized accordingly as it is dangerous to say the least.

Perhaps your mistaking Damien as having the same character traits as Michael Shumacher, and of course, Damien is only one of the stewards and I'm pretty sure he would not stoop that low.

Also correct as if anyone has been called to meet the SOM (Stewards Of the Meet) as I have they would know it is not a unilateral decision but rather a unanimous one between at minimum 3 Chief Stewards and a maximum of 5 generally speaking depending on the series..

The teams are in constant contact with their cars so there really is no valid reason for any driver not to know his exact position on the track or the number of laps he has completed.

Yes and actually the laps are posted on their consoles too...Just a small sample of the information available to them with the push of a button and something every driver should be checking under a yellow flag, about the only thing you can't do YET is order a pizza delivered for after the race.

[ignis]

Appears that no one has thought about what happened with Alonso..

Alonso did just 1 lap on the green strip tyres, so at the end of the race, the hard tyres were well worn... the last corner he put his foot down. had he not lifted off he would have hit the barrier.... Just looked at it again what should the following car do ? Not forgetting all the cars are bunched up, as it happens it was Schumi, should he overtake or slam on his breaks with cars going every which way behind...

If as some say all the driver must be aware of the rules, why did Alonso almost crash trying so hard on the last corner ? [would make you think that Alonso had no idea about rule 40.13]

My main point was this rule 40.13 is fine but why show a GO GO GO both with the green flashing light and the man waving the green flag on the last corner, make much more scene to just keep holding the yellow out, its not far to the finish line.

[LindsayBKK]

Go Mark Webber! 2 races in a row

Aussie Aussie Aussie OY! OY! OY!

Red Bull getting good advertising.

British Grand Prix next 9th June'10

[ignis]

Go Mark Webber! 2 races in a row

Aussie Aussie Aussie OY! OY! OY!

Red Bull getting good advertising.

British Grand Prix next 9th June'10

? ?

10days 18 hours in the Turkey Grand Prix........ 1st practice in 8 days

[F1fanatic]

Having read close to 30 pages (!) on PlanetF1 with forumers quoting all the relevant rules and arguing about what they implied, I'm ready for bed - sorry, finally ready to come to a decision on whether the move was illegal.

At the time, I just laughed - typical Schumi, make the smallest mistake and you'll regret it.....

After all the quoted rules I think the decision will be overturned by the FIA.

As far as I can see, one of the relevant rules says something along the lines of 'if the safety car is deployed at the end of the race, it will enter the pit lane before the race end'. BUT, another rule says (again, something along the lines of) 'if the safety car is deployed, yellow flags will be displayed and it will be shown on the teams' monitors.

As far as I can make out, there is nothing saying that if the safety car is deployed at the beginning of the last lap then the race will always end under a safety car. It leaves it open that the safety car can be deployed at the beginning of the last lap, pit before the end and normal racing continues.

Plus, the marshalls were waving green flags, not yellow, and all the SC boards had been removed - before Schumi overtook Alonso.

IMO this is a screw up by Race Control. Did they intend the race to end under safety car conditions? If so, they should have left the yellow flags and SC boards showing on the circuit (and told the teams that the race would end under safety car conditions). They didn't, and this would lead any team with an ounce of nouse to think the race is not ending under the safety car.

Even so, if the decision by the stewards was that Schumi/Alonso positions were to be reversed, I wouldn't have had a problem (because I wouldn't have read thru' 30 bloo*y pages on the subject on a forum!) To give him a 20 second penalty (IMO) is ludicrous.

I'm still laughing about it (whether he's penalised or not), it was by far the best overtaking move of an otherwise pretty boring race and woke us all up at the end. Don't know about anyone else, but I kept falling asleep during the procession!

[LindsayBKK]

Go Mark Webber! 2 races in a row

Aussie Aussie Aussie OY! OY! OY!

Red Bull getting good advertising.

British Grand Prix next 9th June'10

? ?

10days 18 hours in the Turkey Grand Prix........ 1st practice in 8 days

Ok Ok yes July not June.

01 2010 FORMULA 1 GULF AIR BAHRAIN GRAND PRIX (Sakhir) 12 - 14 Mar

02 2010 FORMULA 1 QANTAS AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX (Melbourne) 26 - 28 Mar

03 2010 FORMULA 1 PETRONAS MALAYSIAN GRAND PRIX (Kuala Lumpur) 02 - 04 Apr

04 2010 FORMULA 1 CHINESE GRAND PRIX (Shanghai) 16 - 18 Apr

05 FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO DE ESPANA TELEFÓNICA 2010 (Catalunya) 07 - 09 May

06 FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX DE MONACO 2010 (Monte Carlo) 13 - 16 May

07 2010 FORMULA 1 TURKISH GRAND PRIX (Istanbul) 28 - 30 May

08 FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX DU CANADA 2010 (Montreal) 11 - 13 Jun

09 2010 FORMULA 1 TELEFÓNICA GRAND PRIX OF EUROPE (Valencia) 25 - 27 Jun

10 2010 FORMULA 1 SANTANDER BRITISH GRAND PRIX (Silverstone) 09 - 11 Jul

11 FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2010 (Hockenheim) 23 - 25 Jul

12 FORMULA 1 MAGYAR NAGYDIJ 2010 (Budapest) 30 Jul - 01 Aug

13 2010 FORMULA 1 BELGIAN GRAND PRIX (Spa-Francorchamps) 27 - 29 Aug

14 FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO SANTANDER D'ITALIA 2010 (Monza) 10 - 12 Sep

15 2010 FORMULA 1 SINGTEL SINGAPORE GRAND PRIX (Singapore) 24 - 26 Sep

16 2010 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX (Suzuka) 08 - 10 Oct

17 2010 FORMULA 1 KOREAN GRAND PRIX (Yeongam) * 22 - 24 Oct

18 FORMULA 1 GRANDE PREMIO DO BRASIL 2010 (Sao Paulo) 05 - 07 Nov

19 2010 FORMULA 1 ETIHAD AIRWAYS ABU DHABI GRAND PRIX (Yas Marina Circuit) 12 - 14 Nov

[b19bry]

What part of what i said were you saying "not" to?

This part

it was plainly obvious by the way everyone drove those last few corners that they had resumed racing

I disagree then. I believe that the reason why other drivers didn't make over-taking moves wasn't because everyone was aware of and following the rules, i think it was simply because at Monaco it's almost impossible to pass. As you say it is only speculation, but i think if you look at the way most of the drivers were attacking the last few corners, you can see that they had resumed racing.

And now your missing my point.

It doesn't matter the way in which any of the drivers attacked the last few corners or indeed if they felt they were racing or not. Rule 40.13 stating that no overtaking was allowed subsequent to the SC peeling off mean't the 'race' was effectively over.

I must say it was always my understanding that ordinarily after a safety card period overtaking could only commence once the start/finish line had been passed ?

Edited May 17, 2010 by b19bry

[b19bry]

Even so, if the decision by the stewards was that Schumi/Alonso positions were to be reversed, I wouldn't have had a problem (because I wouldn't have read thru' 30 bloo*y pages on the subject on a forum!) To give him a 20 second penalty (IMO) is ludicrous.

I don't believe reversing positions is an option as a sanction. He would ordinarily have been given a drive thru penalty but since the offence was in the last 5 laps he was given a time penalty in lieu of that.

I'm still laughing about it (whether he's penalised or not), it was by far the best overtaking move of an otherwise pretty boring race and woke us all up at the end. Don't know about anyone else, but I kept falling asleep during the procession!

You missed Alonso's pass on Kovalainen then, that was pretty scary

I had to follow it all the way, I was sooo hoping Mark would make it He's such a straight up guy he fully deserves to be where he is now.

[rixalex]

And now your missing my point.

It doesn't matter the way in which any of the drivers attacked the last few corners or indeed if they felt they were racing or not. Rule 40.13 stating that no overtaking was allowed subsequent to the SC peeling off mean't the 'race' was effectively over.

It does matter because it proves the point that i was making that most of, if not all of the drivers were either unaware of, or at the very least, unclear of, what exactly the rules were.

Yes it's the team and the drivers' jobs to know the rules, but it's also the job of the FIA to make things clear and easily understandable. This situation was not. It was confusing.

[b19bry]

And now your missing my point.

It doesn't matter the way in which any of the drivers attacked the last few corners or indeed if they felt they were racing or not. Rule 40.13 stating that no overtaking was allowed subsequent to the SC peeling off mean't the 'race' was effectively over.

It does matter

Well not in terms of the result it doesn't, which is what I was trying to say.

because it proves the point that i was making that most of, if not all of the drivers were either unaware of, or at the very least, unclear of, what exactly the rules were.

It only proves your point if that's what actually happened, I don't believe it did, all drivers picked up speed agreed (cos they run particularly slowly behind the SC) but there were no other drivers attempting passes (i.e.racing).

Yes it's the team and the drivers' jobs to know the rules, but it's also the job of the FIA to make things clear and easily understandable. This situation was not. It was confusing.

Rule 40.13 could not be much clearer, however I agree an area of possible contention is the waving of green flags.

What may have added to the confusion is the addition of the SC line which I was unaware of, passing is allowed after this which is prior to the start finish line, BUT not when the race ends under a safety car as per 40.13

[Donnyboy]

The rules are in my view quite clear:

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

and this is my source:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_an...s/8687/fia.html

that is clear now, but obviously if you didnt know the rule regarding passing on the last lap of the race after the SC was deployed & retrieved, you would be racing for positions would you not? I dont think many of us(incl some F1 teams) knew rule 40.13 before this incident

A bit of a farce as far as im concerned as they all put their foot down to race towards the finish line

Donnyboy are you serious?? In a multi-billion dollar sport where the difference between winners and losers IS fully understanding and taking full advantage of the rules and regs at any given point you think not knowing them should be excused?? As any judge in the real world will tell ya, "ignorance of the law is not an excuse and I dare say there are a fair bit more law on the books then there are rules in F1...

If they don't know the rules thoroughly inside and out and BTW in any reg book this would be very obvious as part of the drivers responsibility to know as well, then they should not be competing at all... What if they didn't know the flags properly and killed a marshall because they weren't privy to the meanings?? On more then one occasion Shumie has used the rules like this to his advantage including his last race there in 2006 when he intentionally ran into the barrier to end the Q session and prevent Alonso from taking the pole..

so yr telling me all drivers should know ALL the rules governing the FIA including the technical aspects of the car? come on.

to know rules about the meaning of flag colours and an obscure one about passing on the last lap after the SC has been deployed & retrived is different. This rule makes the sport into a bit of farce really.

ok why bother racing towards the finish line after the SC had been retrived?

They all were gunning for it, ie RACING, its a pity really that this rule exists, btw, why does it?

[midasthailand]

The rules are in my view quite clear:

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

and this is my source:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_an...s/8687/fia.html

that is clear now, but obviously if you didnt know the rule regarding passing on the last lap of the race after the SC was deployed & retrieved, you would be racing for positions would you not? I dont think many of us(incl some F1 teams) knew rule 40.13 before this incident

A bit of a farce as far as im concerned as they all put their foot down to race towards the finish line

Donnyboy are you serious?? In a multi-billion dollar sport where the difference between winners and losers IS fully understanding and taking full advantage of the rules and regs at any given point you think not knowing them should be excused?? As any judge in the real world will tell ya, "ignorance of the law is not an excuse and I dare say there are a fair bit more law on the books then there are rules in F1...

If they don't know the rules thoroughly inside and out and BTW in any reg book this would be very obvious as part of the drivers responsibility to know as well, then they should not be competing at all... What if they didn't know the flags properly and killed a marshall because they weren't privy to the meanings?? On more then one occasion Shumie has used the rules like this to his advantage including his last race there in 2006 when he intentionally ran into the barrier to end the Q session and prevent Alonso from taking the pole..

so yr telling me all drivers should know ALL the rules governing the FIA including the technical aspects of the car? come on.

to know rules about the meaning of flag colours and an obscure one about passing on the last lap after the SC has been deployed & retrived is different. This rule makes the sport into a bit of farce really.

ok why bother racing towards the finish line after the SC had been retrived?

They all were gunning for it, ie RACING, its a pity really that this rule exists, btw, why does it?

What really makes it a farce is someone doing all the work to build up a lead and then through no fault of his own have that lead eaten because the safety car comes out....4 times! Webber would have won by 30 seconds otherwise.

[b19bry]

What really makes it a farce is someone doing all the work to build up a lead and then through no fault of his own have that lead eaten because the safety car comes out....4 times! Webber would have won by 30 seconds otherwise.

Absolutely, but more likely by well over 30 secs. Instead of which he apparently could have been quite legally jumped by Vettel on the last corner according to some, how fair would that have been ?

[b19bry]

ok why bother racing towards the finish line after the SC had been retrived?

They all were gunning for it, ie RACING, its a pity really that this rule exists, btw, why does it?

In previous years they would not have been allowed to pass before the start/finish line after any SC period and this is still the case under rule 40.13

This year they introduced a safety car line prior to the last corner after which cars may pass after a normal race SC period, I don't know why they made this change.

The reason the SC car comes in just prior to the finish is so that the winner can cross the line and take the chequered flag without having to follow the SC across the line and the media get their 'winners' shot.

[Donnyboy]

ok why bother racing towards the finish line after the SC had been retrived?

They all were gunning for it, ie RACING, its a pity really that this rule exists, btw, why does it?

In previous years they would not have been allowed to pass before the start/finish line after any SC period and this is still the case under rule 40.13

This year they introduced a safety car line prior to the last corner after which cars may pass after a normal race SC period, I don't know why they made this change.

The reason the SC car comes in just prior to the finish is so that the winner can cross the line and take the chequered flag without having to follow the SC across the line and the media get their 'winners' shot.

so its nothing to do with safety, but for show

sort of like 'save face' then

[Donnyboy]

What really makes it a farce is someone doing all the work to build up a lead and then through no fault of his own have that lead eaten because the safety car comes out....4 times! Webber would have won by 30 seconds otherwise.

Absolutely, but more likely by well over 30 secs. Instead of which he apparently could have been quite legally jumped by Vettel on the last corner according to some, how fair would that have been ?

Webber held his nerve well

[b19bry]

ok why bother racing towards the finish line after the SC had been retrived?

They all were gunning for it, ie RACING, its a pity really that this rule exists, btw, why does it?

In previous years they would not have been allowed to pass before the start/finish line after any SC period and this is still the case under rule 40.13

This year they introduced a safety car line prior to the last corner after which cars may pass after a normal race SC period, I don't know why they made this change.

The reason the SC car comes in just prior to the finish is so that the winner can cross the line and take the chequered flag without having to follow the SC across the line and the media get their 'winners' shot.

so its nothing to do with safety, but for show

sort of like 'save face' then

You're too cynical

[b19bry]

What really makes it a farce is someone doing all the work to build up a lead and then through no fault of his own have that lead eaten because the safety car comes out....4 times! Webber would have won by 30 seconds otherwise.

Absolutely, but more likely by well over 30 secs. Instead of which he apparently could have been quite legally jumped by Vettel on the last corner according to some, how fair would that have been ?

Webber held his nerve well

He's unstoppable right now.

Let's see if he can keep it going in Turkey which will also be a critical race for Massa given his past performances there ?

[rixalex]

because it proves the point that i was making that most of, if not all of the drivers were either unaware of, or at the very least, unclear of, what exactly the rules were.

It only proves your point if that's what actually happened, I don't believe it did, all drivers picked up speed agreed (cos they run particularly slowly behind the SC) but there were no other drivers attempting passes (i.e.racing).

As i have already said, the fact that there were no other drivers attempting passes means little by virtue of the fact that passing is virtually impossible, unless someone makes a mistake as Alonso did.

Although granted not a completely unbiased source, Mercedes had this to say; and despite their bias, i happen to agree:

"We believed that the combination of the race control messages and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race," explained Mercedes.

"This opinion appears to have been shared by the majority of the teams with cars in the top 10 positions who also gave their drivers instructions to race to the finish line."

[b19bry]

Having read close to 30 pages (!) on PlanetF1 with forumers quoting all the relevant rules and arguing about what they implied, I'm ready for bed - sorry, finally ready to come to a decision on whether the move was illegal.

At the time, I just laughed - typical Schumi, make the smallest mistake and you'll regret it.....

After all the quoted rules I think the decision will be overturned by the FIA.

Mercedes have now recognised the futility of contesting this and have dropped their appeal.

[b19bry]

Although granted not a completely unbiased source, Mercedes had this to say; and despite their bias, i happen to agree:

"We believed that the combination of the race control messages and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race," explained Mercedes.

"This opinion appears to have been shared by the majority of the teams with cars in the top 10 positions who also gave their drivers instructions to race to the finish line."

I think we already knew Ross Brawn's/Schumi's position on this !

The fact that they've now dropped their appeal is rather more telling in my view

Edited May 18, 2010 by b19bry

[wackysleet]

Having read close to 30 pages (!) on PlanetF1 with forumers quoting all the relevant rules and arguing about what they implied, I'm ready for bed - sorry, finally ready to come to a decision on whether the move was illegal.

At the time, I just laughed - typical Schumi, make the smallest mistake and you'll regret it.....

After all the quoted rules I think the decision will be overturned by the FIA.

Mercedes have now recognised the futility of contesting this and have dropped their appeal.

F1, I too had to laugh when you commented about Michael making the smallest of mistakes, he never made small mistakes just massive ones, I don't know of another formula 1 driver that has ever pulled the stunts that Michael has been guilty of over his career, and while being of the opinion that he is the best driver of all time, he is also the biggest cheat of all time and in my opinion should have been kicked out of the sport.

[rixalex]

Although granted not a completely unbiased source, Mercedes had this to say; and despite their bias, i happen to agree:

"We believed that the combination of the race control messages and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race," explained Mercedes.

"This opinion appears to have been shared by the majority of the teams with cars in the top 10 positions who also gave their drivers instructions to race to the finish line."

I think we already knew Ross Brawn's/Schumi's position on this !

The fact that they've now dropped their appeal is rather more telling in my view

They've dropped their appeal because it's clear they broke the rule. That has never been a point of contention for me. What has is the confusing way the stewards implemented the rule.

Stuff making decisions on the basis of what works best on camera, and start making decisions based on what makes sense in racing terms.

[wackysleet]

It appears, at least in this instance that the real confusion on whether the race was on or still under the safety car was the fault entirely of people using the wrong flags at the wrong time and with all the money available within F1 I'm sure they could have a better communication system than the one that appears to have failed miserably, there is obviously a cental control room that can monitor every aspect of the race at every location, if they are short of a few mobile phones then I have a couple of spares.

[wackysleet]

rixalex

They've dropped their appeal because it's clear they broke the rule. That has never been a point of contention for me. What has is the confusing way the stewards implemented the rule.

Stuff making decisions on the basis of what works best on camera, and start making decisions based on what makes sense in racing terms.

rixalex

In a previous post I suggested shaking up the the practise sessions by drawing from a hat the times for a team to do their laps and giving a certain amount of variety in the proceedings, of course it would not necessarily be to the benefit of the big teams and I accept upto a point your view on the TV coverage, personally it would not detract from my normal viewing pleasure, but make no mistake about the total importance of the TV.

Nearly every poster on the forum has complained about certain races being boring with little or no overtaking and you are unlikely to achieve this with the top cars so close in performance thus resulting in a procession and of course the new regs etc and the tracks themselves, everything needs to be shaken up with a choice, look at previous years to see what made the best racing spectacle which in turn would increase audience numbers.

Sponsors are there for one reason only, to get maximum tv coverage for the cheapest investment, cannot blame them for that but I can understand the need to accomodate the TV audience as I suspect that is where a very large amount of the vast sums of money are ultimately generated from, no money, then no racing, sad but I think most likely true.

Sorry, the middle paragraph was out of order, it should have been the last one.

[b19bry]

It appears, at least in this instance that the real confusion on whether the race was on or still under the safety car was the fault entirely of people using the wrong flags at the wrong time and with all the money available within F1 I'm sure they could have a better communication system than the one that appears to have failed miserably, there is obviously a cental control room that can monitor every aspect of the race at every location, if they are short of a few mobile phones then I have a couple of spares.

Well the green flags but also the introduction of an arbitrary safety car line. They should just go back to using the start/finish line as the point where overtaking may commence (it is after all where racing normally starts !)........problem solved.

[Mosha]

That's 2 bloody races I've missed. I spent the w/end in hospital, with some sort of virus. I get home yesterday with some joker asking if I was ready for a beer. Wackysleet AKA David, hopefully back on the mend now, but a damned long way from wanting a beer.