Thaksin's Rural Red Shirts Swarm The Capital

[Jingthing]

I'm not a "reddie" nor do I have any vested interest in either side here, it just seems highly hypocrtitical that yellow maniacs like yourself feel so intimidated by people from the countryside coming to Bangkok to make a peaceful protest, while at the same time you try and rationalize the criminal actions by the yellow shirts in ransacking the government buildings and laying siege to the airport a couple years ago Try a little objectivity sometime there jing, you may find that it does wonders for your outlook

You sound like a reddie, anyway, as you seem to have nothing but pro red posts. BTW, I am not pro yellow. It is very offensive to label people who detest the THAKSIN reds as yellow. That is a trash tactic and completely false. You are the one obsessed with talking about the airport, so stop putting words in my mouth. Its irrelevant to the current situation, we have potentially violent RED revolutionaries in the streets RIGHT NOW threatening to "paralyze" the country (their words) TOMORROW if their demands are not met. They should NOT be met. They are a mob! That is not democracy; it is a MOB.

BTW, right now the Washington Post reporting as many as 100K reds. NOT 150K. Notice you didn't comment on your error.

Another point -- there is absolutely no correlation to being American and being pro red. I of course am an American (who loves my president) who is very anti red. There is also NO correlation between being leftist or rightist from a western perspective and our feelings about Thaksin. Its all mixed up because the politics here are totally different than western politics.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[Trouble]

As usual, seems like everyone on the forum is dug in on one side or the other. The original post provided no actual news but was posted as something new. Not living in Thailand I was expecting some "information" but as usual very little in the way of facts on these "Breaking News" items. I certainly would not subscribe to the mobile phone news updates. Over 10 pages of discussion, and I use the term loosely, with noting but conjecture on anything.

I had an interesting discussion with a Thai student attending Univ of Southern California two days ago. He is working on a PhD program in Economics and just finished a Master Program in International Public Policy and Administration. I asked him his take on the situation in Thailand. He told me that most of his friends held similar views which I will pass on as I found them quite interesting. Of course this comes from international students studying in the US some on government scholarships. His take on things is as follows: When Taksin servied as Prime Minister during his first term he was felt to be doing a good job, addressing many of the problems in Thailand. There was little objection to his policies as they were seen as being populist in nature. During his second term accusations of corruption elevated and this became the battle cry for his opposition. This student and his friends saw the ousting of Taksin as a good thing. The student does not seem to be concerned by the method by which this ocurred. He told me that when Taksin returned to Thailand the problem was that he did not admit to his mistakes and ask for forgiveness. He said that had he done this the general populace would have forgiven him his transgressions and he could probably have continued on in politics. His refusal condemned himself to what took place. The student understands that the oppostion is little better but likes Abisit because he is young. This student and his frends feel that the old politicians of both parties need to go and it is now time for the new generation to take over. The two politicians these students seemd to like is the current Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. The others need to go. What struck me with complete shock was the fact that this student fully accepts the notion of "commissions" received by public officials. I think that is something we in the west just cannot understand. I think payoffs and "commissions" are so ingrained in to the way of doing business that it is all a matter of degree. Paying people to vote a certain way or go to Bangkok is just not on the radar for people in Thailand like it is for us in the West. It is like the student said, there is a Thai culture and a Thai way of doing things that we in the West cannot fully understand. It seems that he is very willing to accept one side or the other doing what we consider illegal as long as the end is met.

I don't like the corruption of the Taksin era and don't like the way he was ousted. I don't like the way the current government got control. It just is not the way we do things in the West. We would have waited for elections or seen resolution thru prosecution in the court system. I am convinced now that this type of process is decades away from happening in Thailand. I am hopeful that these students being educated in not ony the US but in Europe will be the generation that has seen how governments in the West deal with things. I am not suggesting that we in the West have the most scrupulous leaders but at least there are general limits on how far they will go. The mindset in Thailand will take decades to change. That's just the way it will be. I can only hope that this next generation will enter into politics and see that commissions, bribes, corruptions only weakens the government and the country and that they will set limits to what they will tolerated.

For all those who see the red shirts as just dupes for Taksin and that the current government has a ligimate mandate to govern, I would say that even if the red shirts fail in this attempt at calling for new elections, that when the electons slated for 2011 (if that is the correct timing), then you better be prepared for this all to repeat itself. When the rural poor win in those elections and want a change lets see what tactics the yellow shirts, current leaders, army, judiciary and others use in trying to hold onto power. During the interim, if the red shirts are smart, they will dump Taksin and his money, establish a credible set of policy goals, and organize in the provinces 2011 should be a really interesting time in Thailand.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Trouble

[Jingthing]

During the interim, if the red shirts are smart, they will dump Taksin and his money, establish a credible set of policy goals, and organize in the provinces 2011 should be a really interesting time in Thailand.

Agree 100 percent and have said very similar here many times ...

[warmwater7]

This is all propaganda and scare mongering. The red shirts are going to sieze the 11th infantry battalion please...... We are educated farangs.... Who is throwing out all these wierd and wonderful fairy tales. This is propoganda spread by the elite yellow.... and yes yellow which means frightened.

my friend, you are on the right track, but stopped at the wrong tree.

It's the news BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

many hours are spent by many people who make lots and lots of money, making news ( something ) from nothing. alot like the USD/POUND ( sorry, it was to easy )

someone is enjoying ( profiting) the "hits " from current events.

I have heard it called a " teaser" , so you won't touch the remote. watch the allmighty commercial, or in this case the hit.

sadly.......yes.......most of the "news" is fabricated/edited for your consumption/judgement.and most importantly,WANTING MORE.

I sleep well knowing the profits from the pain of others is given back to those who cant help themselvs. The ones who actually OWN the story in the 1st place!

good night...................and stay tuned for the unbelievably heartbreaking story, of truth, love, and justice,

A NATION HELD HOSTAGE BY A CONVICTED TERRORIST!!!............................................................................

......................................................right after this commercial break

George bush, Maggy Thatcher?...................i guess ill stay around and find out the REAL TRUTH.

[Maestro]

The CNN reporter said that “the centre of Bangkok is at a standstill”. Was traffic traffic congestion really that bad on Sunday?

--

Maestro

[Publicus]

As usual, seems like everyone on the forum is dug in on one side or the other. The original post provided no actual news but was posted as something new. Not living in Thailand I was expecting some "information" but as usual very little in the way of facts on these "Breaking News" items. I certainly would not subscribe to the mobile phone news updates. Over 10 pages of discussion, and I use the term loosely, with noting but conjecture on anything.

I had an interesting discussion with a Thai student attending Univ of Southern California two days ago. He is working on a PhD program in Economics and just finished a Master Program in International Public Policy and Administration. I asked him his take on the situation in Thailand. He told me that most of his friends held similar views which I will pass on as I found them quite interesting. Of course this comes from international students studying in the US some on government scholarships. His take on things is as follows: When Taksin servied as Prime Minister during his first term he was felt to be doing a good job, addressing many of the problems in Thailand. There was little objection to his policies as they were seen as being populist in nature. During his second term accusations of corruption elevated and this became the battle cry for his opposition. This student and his friends saw the ousting of Taksin as a good thing. The student does not seem to be concerned by the method by which this ocurred. He told me that when Taksin returned to Thailand the problem was that he did not admit to his mistakes and ask for forgiveness. He said that had he done this the general populace would have forgiven him his transgressions and he could probably have continued on in politics. His refusal condemned himself to what took place. The student understands that the oppostion is little better but likes Abisit because he is young. This student and his frends feel that the old politicians of both parties need to go and it is now time for the new generation to take over. The two politicians these students seemd to like is the current Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. The others need to go. What struck me with complete shock was the fact that this student fully accepts the notion of "commissions" received by public officials. I think that is something we in the west just cannot understand. I think payoffs and "commissions" are so ingrained in to the way of doing business that it is all a matter of degree. Paying people to vote a certain way or go to Bangkok is just not on the radar for people in Thailand like it is for us in the West. It is like the student said, there is a Thai culture and a Thai way of doing things that we in the West cannot fully understand. It seems that he is very willing to accept one side or the other doing what we consider illegal as long as the end is met.

I don't like the corruption of the Taksin era and don't like the way he was ousted. I don't like the way the current government got control. It just is not the way we do things in the West. We would have waited for elections or seen resolution thru prosecution in the court system. I am convinced now that this type of process is decades away from happening in Thailand. I am hopeful that these students being educated in not ony the US but in Europe will be the generation that has seen how governments in the West deal with things. I am not suggesting that we in the West have the most scrupulous leaders but at least there are general limits on how far they will go. The mindset in Thailand will take decades to change. That's just the way it will be. I can only hope that this next generation will enter into politics and see that commissions, bribes, corruptions only weakens the government and the country and that they will set limits to what they will tolerated.

For all those who see the red shirts as just dupes for Taksin and that the current government has a ligimate mandate to govern, I would say that even if the red shirts fail in this attempt at calling for new elections, that when the electons slated for 2011 (if that is the correct timing), then you better be prepared for this all to repeat itself. When the rural poor win in those elections and want a change lets see what tactics the yellow shirts, current leaders, army, judiciary and others use in trying to hold onto power. During the interim, if the red shirts are smart, they will dump Taksin and his money, establish a credible set of policy goals, and organize in the provinces 2011 should be a really interesting time in Thailand.

Interesting to read your post, which is appreciated. You took me along with your sentiments and thoughts much of the way thru it, as well as by your disarming analysis.

However the old cliche' everpresent throughout, that hope springs eternal, leaves me flat. Thais are dug in to their traditional culture to include 'commissions' and bribes (a difference?) and continue to view the falhang as inferior and stupid. Presenting the Thai with any Western model only causes him/her to dig their heels in deeper into their own decrepit thousand year culture, society and civilization.

I myself point to Abhisit and Korn in my moments of greatest optimism, but then I recognize and realize there isn't anyone after them, or even presently among them. Still, hoping that the undefined distant future can produce a radical transformation of Thai society, culture and civilization is a hope I share with you as do so many others who post/read here.

I'd add that the preconditions that would give us the realization of our hopes include first and formost the end of the ultimate reactionary presence in the Kingdom. Until that might be accomplished, there isn't much hope of the transformation you speak of because as long as so many people are certain they have a human/god leader, they hopelessly take themselves out of the realm of reality in favor of a world of fantasy.

Agreed that the Redshirts need completely to separate themselves from Thaksin, but then he is their human/god leader too. Given the two realities on the part of each of the two major sides, there remains but a scant basis of hope. Sorry to present such a glum assessment and evaluation, but the society has a very high mountain before it to climb and very little mountain climbing equipment.

None the less, I sincerely hope that your analysis prevails 20 or 30 years from now.

[NovaBlue05]

The facts, you say? The promise? A million. The reality? 100K. There are your facts.

I think that the million number was quite a bit overblown, and not to quibble with the government numbers but most objective news outlets outside of the Kingdom place the numbers at closer to 150,000 currently, and the week is still young so who knows

100K-150K seems a lot to me. Whether it's that or 300k or a million seems irrelevant unless one believes that the support for this doesn't extend beyond the number of red shirts that can be counted in the Bangkok streets. Wouldn't surprise me if, for every protestor you can count, there is a whole village full of supporters back north.

[mommysboy]

I don't get it. 65 million Thais and and a micro minority of100,000 can bring down a government just by showing up, carrying signs, playing music and making speeches to themselves? Interesting dynamic. I just don't see how this works for them.

What do expect? the whole lot of em to travel down and the family buffalo too!

[Moonrakers]

The facts, you say? The promise? A million. The reality? 100K. There are your facts.

I think that the million number was quite a bit overblown, and not to quibble with the government numbers but most objective news outlets outside of the Kingdom place the numbers at closer to 150,000 currently, and the week is still young so who knows

100K-150K seems a lot to me. Whether it's that or 300k or a million seems irrelevant unless one believes that the support for this doesn't extend beyond the number of red shirts that can be counted in the Bangkok streets. Wouldn't surprise me if, for every protestor you can count, there is a whole village full of supporters back north.

And how more more do you think DO NOT support the red cause?

[NovaBlue05]

The facts, you say? The promise? A million. The reality? 100K. There are your facts.

I think that the million number was quite a bit overblown, and not to quibble with the government numbers but most objective news outlets outside of the Kingdom place the numbers at closer to 150,000 currently, and the week is still young so who knows

100K-150K seems a lot to me. Whether it's that or 300k or a million seems irrelevant unless one believes that the support for this doesn't extend beyond the number of red shirts that can be counted in the Bangkok streets. Wouldn't surprise me if, for every protestor you can count, there is a whole village full of supporters back north.

And how more more do you think DO NOT support the red cause?

No idea. Your point?

[mommysboy]

The facts, you say? The promise? A million. The reality? 100K. There are your facts.

I think that the million number was quite a bit overblown, and not to quibble with the government numbers but most objective news outlets outside of the Kingdom place the numbers at closer to 150,000 currently, and the week is still young so who knows

100K-150K seems a lot to me. Whether it's that or 300k or a million seems irrelevant unless one believes that the support for this doesn't extend beyond the number of red shirts that can be counted in the Bangkok streets. Wouldn't surprise me if, for every protestor you can count, there is a whole village full of supporters back north.

And how more more do you think DO NOT support the red cause?

Who knows! But they certainly aren't out on the steets about to run amok. But let's not let reality spoil the argument eh!

[Moonrakers]

OK.

I think I jumped the gun a bit there. I thought that I was replying to a "Reds are in the vast majority" post but novablue05 did not imply that.

Although they are in the minority, yes it is still a lot of people.

[cdnvic]

Most of the threads here back in 2003-2004 were anti-Thaksin. Of course much of that was due to bars closing early.

[basinboy]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

Well let's see, are you in Chang Mai? Thaksin strong hold? Come to southern Thailand and the only red shits they're wearing here are wearing them because it's Sunday! 100,000 people nationally turn up, mostly because they are paid to? What a statement of support!

Hmmm well sorry I live in Thailand's second largest City! South? isnt that where the Mussie Wussie bombs are?

You actually live in Thailands 8th largest city, this second city myth really does endure>

see data at

www.citypopulation.de/Thailand.html

[ttl]

**Have you ever found a place that allows posting in all caps? Who still does this and why? All content removed, next time type sensibly and don't waste you time**

Edited March 14, 2010 by cdnvic
removed everything written in caps

[kurtgruen]

I had an interesting discussion with a Thai student attending Univ of Southern California two days ago. He is working on a PhD program in Economics and just finished a Master Program in International Public Policy and Administration. I asked him his take on the situation in Thailand. He told me that most of his friends held similar views which I will pass on as I found them quite interesting. Of course this comes from international students studying in the US some on government scholarships. His take on things is as follows: When Taksin servied as Prime Minister during his first term he was felt to be doing a good job, addressing many of the problems in Thailand. There was little objection to his policies as they were seen as being populist in nature. During his second term accusations of corruption elevated and this became the battle cry for his opposition. This student and his friends saw the ousting of Taksin as a good thing. The student does not seem to be concerned by the method by which this ocurred. He told me that when Taksin returned to Thailand the problem was that he did not admit to his mistakes and ask for forgiveness. He said that had he done this the general populace would have forgiven him his transgressions and he could probably have continued on in politics. His refusal condemned himself to what took place. The student understands that the oppostion is little better but likes Abisit because he is young. This student and his friends feel that the old politicians of both parties need to go and it is now time for the new generation to take over. The two politicians these students seemed to like is the current Prime Minister and Minister of Finance.

Thank you for that. I think you will find a number of foreigners on here who would share much of the same opinions with the Thai student.

Unfortunately, they are labeled yellow maniacs by other foreigners on here.

yellow maniacs like yourself

I wonder if they would label the Thai student the same.

Please pass along warm regards to his continued academic pursuits. Thailand needs more citizens like that.

The student reflects my thoughts on the matter. Geez, maybe I'm not that dumb after all.

[Stjohnm]

Despite how vigorous the pro-Thaksin supporters claim no money is changing hands for the supporters, we in the capital don't have to go far to hear from people that have been offered cash to attend - the maid of my last workplace for one.

Turnout directly equates cash. Thaksin is going for it this time.

For sure, so lets hope he REALLY is going for broke this time, and that he REALLY goes broke. Hope springs eternal. However, I fear this is more like one of those zombie horror movies where you keep thinking the monster is finished, but he keeps coming alive for more ...

[Stjohnm]

The CNN reporter said that “the centre of Bangkok is at a standstill”. Was traffic traffic congestion really that bad on Sunday?

So its flowing better than normal then

Edited March 14, 2010 by Stjohnm

[khunjamespittman]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

if you are so sure you have a majority why not hold an election according to the norms of acceptable governance under international supervision. If you are right the problem will be resolved. The error in not holding an election after the court declared no Confidence of the previous government . That would be a step in the right direction and Thailand could return to peace amongst its people.

It would be great if all the name calling stopped so that rational discussion. Your post implies you believe you have moral authority. Well if you do then an election would confirm that. On the other hand you must swallow your ego if an election confirms that you have not made rational choices.

Negotiate! Don't be part of the Problem! Be part of a peaceful splution!

[Jingthing]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

if you are so sure you have a majority why not hold an election according to the norms of acceptable governance under international supervision. If you are right the problem will be resolved. The error in not holding an election after the court declared no Confidence of the previous government . That would be a step in the right direction and Thailand could return to peace amongst its people.

It would be great if all the name calling stopped so that rational discussion. Your post implies you believe you have moral authority. Well if you do then an election would confirm that. On the other hand you must swallow your ego if an election confirms that you have not made rational choices.

Negotiate! Don't be part of the Problem! Be part of a peaceful splution!

I find your post bizarre.

There was an election. Abhisit became PM through a coalition quite legitimately. The Thaksin puppet party almost did so, but it failed.

Majority support -- check the recent polls. Google is your friend. The majority of Thais do NOT support the reds goals.

Moral authority -- I mean Thaksin. A corrupt, cowardly, criminal. A reform movement needs a legitimate leader. Thaksin is clearly not that.

Election supervision -- Thailand won't be inviting the UN in, who are you kidding? You don't understand the xenophobic culture here if you think that would happen.

Negotiate? That's up to the government. However, I think it is clear that Thaksin is not a man that can ever be trusted to negotiate in good faith. He has a long record of deception. What you are really saying is that Abhisit should cave in to an angry mob. He may be forced to, but that is hardly desirable, and hardly democracy.

Solution, schmolution -- what a cliche. See above.

BTW, some excellent western coverage of the red shirt circus, with a great picture slideshow --

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0031400543.html

Edited March 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[liloldspirut]

The red shirts are in a bind. Without violence they will be ignored.

With violence they will be as discredited as they were as a result of the last Songkran events.

Eventually the bluster will run out.

Next step? Try to negotiate a 'victory' to justify a retreat.

Patience is a virtue. We will see what happens with 1 plus million mass on the move. That is what is to be evaluated.

[Jingthing]

The red shirts are in a bind. Without violence they will be ignored.

With violence they will be as discredited as they were as a result of the last Songkran events.

Eventually the bluster will run out.

Next step? Try to negotiate a 'victory' to justify a retreat.

Patience is a virtue. We will see what happens with 1 plus million mass on the move. That is what is to be evaluated.

1 plus million? 100k.

[selftaopath]

Despite how vigorous the pro-Thaksin supporters claim no money is changing hands for the supporters, we in the capital don't have to go far to hear from people that have been offered cash to attend - the maid of my last workplace for one.

Turnout directly equates cash. Thaksin is going for it this time.

For sure, so lets hope he REALLY is going for broke this time, and that he REALLY goes broke. Hope springs eternal. However, I fear this is more like one of those zombie horror movies where you keep thinking the monster is finished, but he keeps coming alive for more ...

Agree. And mainly b/c the "strong man" Toxic in his mental capacity will not admit wrong doing or defeat - especially when so many are willing to fight his battles for him. I think he could easily be diagnosed with some form of Mental or personality disorder. And he certainly will not accept consequences for past aggressions. Bullies are cowards.

[selftaopath]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

Hmm, well I would guess there are actually a significant amount of people who have no alignment to either red or yellow. It seems anyone who speaks out against the reds is deemed as a yellow by those red and Takki Shinegra supporters - that is total nonsense.

Agreed. I dislike both sides equally. Thailand definately needs some new fresh faces, ones that put the nation ahead of themselves or their hidden adgendas.

GREAT Thought, but TIT and I doubt that will EVER happen. Thai people deserve better, but have NO power or representation.

[george]

Monday March 15 Red-shirt rally live updates

Here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bangkok-Red-...da-t347530.html

[petebkk]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

There's a simple explanation to this. Last friday before someone offered our office cleaner 1,000 baht and a free red polo shirt to attend the demonstration. She didn't go.

PAD does not pay people to attend their rallies.

[craigt3365]

We spoke with some family at the rally last night. They were having a blast. Asked us to come and party with them. Booze flowed freely, though they complained they had to buy their own...guess last rally it was supplied for free? They are heading home today as they are out of money. Took them over 24 hours to get to BKK from Khorat. He made a fair amount of money doing it as he provided his truck. Tough to beat for an out of work guy. Easy money and fun. So much for the masses really caring about what is going on...just following the money as they have pretty much always done...

[ChiangMaiFun]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

you havent spent much time in the south then have you......for some bizzae reason,,, they dont tend to looks so kindly upon the taksinista movment, but again thats just one mans perspective

Don't even have to go that far. Even in Chiang Mai the urban middle class by and large lean to the Democrat party. My working assumption is that everyone in the office is some shade of yellow/white/pink. Heck, the person next to me in bed is that.

well... test your theory then - have an election!

[Sunderland]

Our school, near Major Ratchayothin and Kasetsart University, has sensibly decided to close today. Can't imagine many students would have come in anyway.

Expecting a tide of red to flow this way in about 2 hours from now.

Anyone live a mile up the road near the army base? Any idea if they are going to close the road between Kaset-Nawamin and the big roundabout at the Phaholyothin/Ram Intra/Chaengwattana intersection?

[ChiangMaiFun]

They will get frustrated. They don't have the majority support or the moral authority to pull off what they are demanding. They do have fermented fish. You figure it out ...

You're wrong again dude - they have majority support in the country as far as people i know - tuk tuks up here are flying red flags - I have yet to find any yellow fellows outside of BKK and this forum

There's a simple explanation to this. Last friday before someone offered our office cleaner 1,000 baht and a free red polo shirt to attend the demonstration. She didn't go.

PAD does not pay people to attend their rallies.

oh so no 500 baht in the lunch boxes then? where did it come from?