Condo Committees And Management

[wpcoe]

Can a farang need a work permit to be a member of the condo committee?

i.e. Can I, on a retirement extension, be a member of my condo committee?

[indothai]

I live in a condo, as such can contribute as such:

A Condo Committee member or chairperson is a thankless job, unless it is beneficial to the member.

As such, a company will will do what ever they can to control the committee in order to sell units.

The flip side of the coin, co-owners may take advantage of a situation and "profit" at the expense of others. Which is why, some committee may take a "hard-stance" towards co-owners to prevent "profiteering".

Advice:

- Read the Condo Rule Book carefully and know your rights.

- Have some understanding the Condominium Laws, book can be bought easily (SE-ED).

- Be diligant to the condo meetings, go to them, bad management will do whatever to change dates to prevent co-owners from attending.

- Get to know your neighbors, have friends, it's always good to be in a group (committee is a group).

- Don't be lazy, it's your home, your communittee, your investment.

Good luck.

[ripley]

Please correct me if I'm wrong or if the laws have changed, but this is the only answer I've ever received from any source:

Thai law forbids a foreigner to do work of any kind without a work permit. This encludes volunteer work such as giving time to the local orphanage or serving on a committee. One lawyer said that, taken to it's extreme, it could be construed to include making your own repairs and renovations, etc. The authorities are very vigilant in the case of foreigners working in their own shops or businesses. They rarely, if ever, enforce the law when it comes to volunteer work - but the choice is theirs.

[indothai]

Please correct me if I'm wrong or if the laws have changed, but this is the only answer I've ever received from any source:

Thai law forbids a foreigner to do work of any kind without a work permit. This encludes volunteer work such as giving time to the local orphanage or serving on a committee. One lawyer said that, taken to it's extreme, it could be construed to include making your own repairs and renovations, etc. The authorities are very vigilant in the case of foreigners working in their own shops or businesses. They rarely, if ever, enforce the law when it comes to volunteer work - but the choice is theirs.

Very interesting point, but as enforcement is very bad in this country... and the baht being stronger than the hammer of the law, what can one do?

[pkrv]

Hi hhgz

You are quite possibly the most deadly poster on TV - Please keep it up

And what on this flat earth is this new fangled invention called a mail box - I have heard of magical devices called letter boxes - things sort of arrive through them - but perhaps we speak two very different languages.

Fun - PKRV

"How, for instance, did you get the flyers into the mailboxes?"

In my building, all of the mail boxes are located in a "mail room". At the top of each mail box, there is an "opening" that allows "mail" to be inserted and stored in the mail box. Complicated, but I've figured it out.

Thailife, my building uses "SMTS" as the management company, and they're pretty good.

[ripley]

ohferchrissake! The guy said he'd done everything discreetly and secretly so the question was how did he get mailings out without anyone knowing who was doing it. Does that really require further explanation???

[ripley]

"Very interesting point, but as enforcement is very bad in this country... and the baht being stronger than the hammer of the law, what can one do?"

I've always thought that the law exists to enable authorities to prevent foreigners from using various ploys to work without having a proper permit. Has anyone ever heard of it being used to prevent genuine volunteer work? I really don't think that is the intent of the law.

I've seen some pretty vicious power struggles over the years yet never once known of anyone trying to use this law to prosecute an adversary.

[123ace]

Ripley, foreigners do not have and could not have a work permit to be on a committee as there is no salary paid and it is not work. It's that simple.<BR><BR>Condo law indicates the basis for a committee member and Juristic person, foreigners are allowed for both.<BR><BR>For other work, such as gardening or house painting, even in your own home, this can be an issue as the foreigner is depriving a local out of work. Sitting on a committee is not depriving a local out of work as it is not  a salary paying postion.<BR><BR>And yes, in real high end condo's in Bangkok (and I don't mean the high profile recent / modern buildings) there is a severe caste sytem with the high end locals dominating things their way on the committee, and foreigners are not that welcome unless the com is dominted by foreigners - when its the other way around foreigners are tolerated and often looked down upon. <BR>

[ripley]

Ripley, foreigners do not have and could not have a work permit to be on a committee as there is no salary paid and it is not work. It's that simple.<BR><BR>Condo law indicates the basis for a committee member and Juristic person, foreigners are allowed for both.<BR><BR>For other work, such as gardening or house painting, even in your own home, this can be an issue as the foreigner is depriving a local out of work. Sitting on a committee is not depriving a local out of work as it is not  a salary paying postion.<BR><BR>And yes, in real high end condo's in Bangkok (and I don't mean the high profile recent / modern buildings) there is a severe caste sytem with the high end locals dominating things their way on the committee, and foreigners are not that welcome unless the com is dominted by foreigners - when its the other way around foreigners are tolerated and often looked down upon. <BR>

I typed in "'Thai 'Condo Act" & found an interesting conversation (Topic: "Thai condo act 2008" on this very subject. Might want to check it out because it discusses Thai Law regarding condo volunteer work & includes some personal anecdotes.

[123ace]

Ripley, foreigners do not have and could not have a work permit to be on a committee as there is no salary paid and it is not work. It's that simple.<BR><BR>Condo law indicates the basis for a committee member and Juristic person, foreigners are allowed for both.<BR><BR>For other work, such as gardening or house painting, even in your own home, this can be an issue as the foreigner is depriving a local out of work. Sitting on a committee is not depriving a local out of work as it is not  a salary paying postion.<BR><BR>And yes, in real high end condo's in Bangkok (and I don't mean the high profile recent / modern buildings) there is a severe caste sytem with the high end locals dominating things their way on the committee, and foreigners are not that welcome unless the com is dominted by foreigners - when its the other way around foreigners are tolerated and often looked down upon. <BR>

I typed in "'Thai 'Condo Act" & found an interesting conversation (Topic: "Thai condo act 2008" on this very subject. Might want to check it out because it discusses Thai Law regarding condo volunteer work & includes some personal anecdotes.

fair enough, but be assured a work permit is not required as it is not a paid employment role and the condo act specifically states a non-Thai may perform these duties. Some (many) foreigners behave like total jerks on committee's and they annoy the local members, which often leads to results / actions that may appear confusing or contary to the act.

May advice is if you can't get along on the committee and you are not happy then sell and leave and buy somewhere else.

You should drop this issue at this point as you will not get advice significantly more to your likley that is accurate.

[hhgz]

"And what on this flat earth is this new fangled invention called a mail box - I have heard of magical devices called letter boxes..."

They are magical. Before I bought my condo, I looked around for 9 months. I never saw a mail/letter box that was sealed at the top. Accordingly, ANY person could put something into that darn contraption.

[indothai]

Have you gone through the "proper" channels... posting in forums will not get you results.

Departments such as "Department of Lands", "BMA", "Consumer Protection", etc... you may need a transaltor as filling forms will all be in Thai.

The advice of "...can't get along on the committee and you are not happy then sell and leave and buy somewhere else." may be a bit extreme.. I would suggest the proper channels first. Unloading a condo/home isn't like selling a car.

A word of warning, going through government channels will be slow without constant follow-ups, if you can't speak or read Thai then get a translator.

[123ace]

Have you gone through the "proper" channels... posting in forums will not get you results.

Departments such as "Department of Lands", "BMA", "Consumer Protection", etc... you may need a transaltor as filling forms will all be in Thai.

The advice of "...can't get along on the committee and you are not happy then sell and leave and buy somewhere else." may be a bit extreme.. I would suggest the proper channels first. Unloading a condo/home isn't like selling a car.

A word of warning, going through government channels will be slow without constant follow-ups, if you can't speak or read Thai then get a translator.

I should have added that ok you can sell and move, or more reasonably not seek to be on the committee and learn to live with the issues that you are not happy with. In my experience uptight farangs will not make headway with well born Thai's and by getting in to spats over details will not lead to a happy life.

[ripley]

Have you gone through the "proper" channels... posting in forums will not get you results.

Departments such as "Department of Lands", "BMA", "Consumer Protection", etc... you may need a transaltor as filling forms will all be in Thai.

The advice of "...can't get along on the committee and you are not happy then sell and leave and buy somewhere else." may be a bit extreme.. I would suggest the proper channels first. Unloading a condo/home isn't like selling a car.

A word of warning, going through government channels will be slow without constant follow-ups, if you can't speak or read Thai then get a translator.

I should have added that ok you can sell and move, or more reasonably not seek to be on the committee and learn to live with the issues that you are not happy with. In my experience uptight farangs will not make headway with well born Thai's and by getting in to spats over details will not lead to a happy life.

[ripley]

WHOA THERE! I' do live in a condo. I am not on a committee. I am not unhappy on the committee that I'm not on! All of us get along fine on our not-committee. I have actually seen a mailbox and even used this odd contraption on occasion. I have no racial bias against Thais. I think they’re just as screwed up and also just as cool as any other group or culture including my own. I reckon it’s possible many feel much the same about Texans, Hungarians, Tasmanians, etc. I think they’re different. They think I’m different. I’ve neither dished out or been given any disrespect.

I didn’t start this conversation to seek redress for grievances, raise an army to fix any personal condo spats and hiccups, or offer space for a “whine tasting”.

A lot of us live in condos and all condos need committees & management. All condos have varying successes and failures. Many of us aren’t familiar enough with the laws and how things work here to know how to avoid problems

and how to fix problems we’re having. I thought through a sharing of resources, information and personal experiences of successes and failures the contributors on Thai Visa Forum could come up with some interesting material. Thank you for at least answering THAT question.

.

[ripley]

TO THE MODS: Yeah. I think this topic may as well be closed. Going nowhere.

[ripley]

Why is this topic still here?

[stgrhe]

Why is this topic still here?

Write a PM to a mod and ask to have it closed. The OP doesn't own the thread and cannot order a thread he/she opened to be closed.

[ripley]

"A lot of us live in condos and all condos need committees & management. All condos have varying successes and failures. Many of us aren’t familiar enough with the laws and how things work here to know how to avoid problems and how to fix problems we’re having. I thought through a sharing of resources, information and personal experiences of successes and failures the contributors on Thai Visa Forum could come up with some interesting material."

The topic definition at top of page one invites an interesting and useful conversation. Somehow it got derailed, but it would be nice to get back on track. Those who have read this far, how about giving it a try?

[123ace]

This topic and the issues surrounding committees will grow and grow as there are so many new condo buildings coming on line. There are huge cultural barriers in committee's and it can be just as bad having aged hi-so locals as having aged semi-retired Americans. These two groups I find to be the most probelmatic and for different reasons.

Step one - Appoint a very good managemnt company.

[ripley]

Glad you think so. I do as well.

In one of my posts I asked if anyone had encountered a "class" or "caste" system amongst Thais which could influence the way votes and other condo issues fared. What I meant was a system amongst Thai people - not Thais vs Farangs.

[ripley]

My opinion is that a condo stands or falls depending on the quality of: 1.) Its Committee 2.) Its manager/ management company 3.) The awareness and participation of the Co-owners. Of these I think the Committee is the most important as they oversee the work of the manager & are charged with the protection of the interests of the co-owners. Contrary to the assumptions of some on this forum, I'm not a member (nor do I want to be - even if you soaked it in brandy and covered it in whipped cream with a cherry on top!). But I can see the enormous difference in our bldg. since we got a good committee. AGMs are called on time, frequent updates issued, regular audits, safeguards put in place to assure monies are dispersed appropriately, an "open door" policy, and quick responses to any qu.estions or complaints. They've put in long hours - some more than others as there are times when only a few are in the country to see to the nitty-gritty work. As far as I can tell these volunteers give of their time and energy (and often take a lot of flack) for one reason: to make a difference. To serve their community., Now, I don't know about the rest of you but, even tho what they do is the job description codified by Thai Condo Law, I think this calibre of performance is pretty rare. Particularly in a place where most people settle in to enjoy themselves and kick bacjk at the beach or by the pool!

AGM time is not far off & the four year term is up for these people - most of whom are pretty tired out and fed up by now. So I find myself wondering who will be found to step into their shoes? A new committee is formed at the AGM based on whoever puts his name up & the majority of votes of those attending the meeting. It's a crap-shoot, particularly in a large bldg. where most of us travel and the few people who know each other are in tiny groups. Of course there isn't any way to assure a good committee, but I think it might be possible to make the job more attractive and to reward the people who give their time. At the moment it's a damned thankless job, even tho virtue is sometimes its own reward!

I'd be interested in your thoughts & ideas on the matter.

[123ace]

@ Ripley - Committee members should not under any circumstances be paid, as this would lead to all free-loaders looking to be on the committees to earn money and provide no effort and with no oversight. A relative of an owner could be voted on just to get money.

It is, and has to remain, a community service based concept - without pay. The benefit is the protection of your personal and common assets, i.e the buidling, controlled maintenance costs and unit resale values etc.

If nobody wants to be on the new committee after 4 years then the previous committee can continue, so if nobody new wants to put in the effort they can continue. If the old group wants out and there are no replacements, then you need to accept that you are in the wrong building and a decline is inevitable - or make the effort yourself.

If you pushed this point on payment, and by some mircale the act changed, be assured the law would allow for locals only to be paid.

[ripley]

You're right.

Someone else mentioned here that it would actually be illegal for foreign committee members to receive payment. I opined that perhaps priveleges or services might be offered. But in the end I still think you're right.

With me it's not personal, & it was a mistake to use my own bldg as an example. I've just always been interested in problem-solving .I see all of these new bldgs coming up, hear the hard-luck stories. Sometimes a condo seems like a pretty fragile entity & investment. I'm interested in brainstoruming ways to cut the hassles as well as share information. I'm also 'way too verbose. I shoulda written:

"How do you assure a good condo committee and management?? How important is this?"

My other question on this Topic has also been "What problem did you have & how did you solve it?"

Edited September 8, 2010 by ripley

[ripley]

Does anyone know: Aren't there condominium developments which are run by the developers themselves - i.e. the developer retains control and is responsible for keeping up standards? What's the deal with this?(Is there a better Topic on which to ask this question?

Edited September 17, 2010 by ripley

[123ace]

Ripley, the best approach is to appoint a good international property management company (as there are no consistently good local ones). They have the skills, however as 99.9% of condo owners want to pay the least amount possible by way of fees, the quality of management staff is often quite poor.

The solution is to pay higher CAM fees and hire an international company with expat staff and oversight (basically career and trained asset mangers - not a nice lady turning her hand to it!) and make sure you receive international standard quality.

Having the Developer stay long after completion tends not to work as they have limited financial incentive, and it means that they are forever expected to handle defects for eternity! Quite a few developers do this (to protect their unsold units) and it is one of the major causes of upset.

Without exception, bidding for property management companies here comes down to pricing - lowest price wins - the owners through greed and narrow mindedness complain about poor service and never question their own decision making process. Dare I say this is, but the problem is most common in buidlings densely populated by owners that inherited their wealth and did not have to figure out real world economics and therefore see management staff as modern day slaves.

[ThaiBob]

Does anyone know: Aren't there condominium developments which are run by the developers themselves - i.e. the developer retains control and is responsible for keeping up standards? What's the deal with this?(Is there a better Topic on which to ask this question?

In Pattaya, the newer View Talay projects (VT 5,6,7) are managed by the developer (View Talay). In the older projects (VT1 & 2), View Talay has been voted out and the homeowner's association has hired professional management companpies. I might add the VT1 and VT2 have made many improvements and are in compliance with codes and regulations. As 123ace noted when the developer has few unsold remaining they lose interest and everyone suffers.

[ripley]

A consult with a respected realty expert informs me that it is true that condos controlled by developers usually deteriorate to a bad scene & the reason is that once the units are sold there is no profit in maintaining standards. But there are exceptions, and these work usually because the developer retains a large percentage of bldg. units for rental (rather like a hotel). Examples of such groups that work well are City Garden, the Nordic Group and Nova. It is also true that an AGM could vote them out if the numbers were right & they wanted to.

[ripley]

"here are exceptions, and these work usually because the developer retains a large percentage of bldg. units for rental (rather like a hotel)"

Also, a professional approach toward renting out co-owner's holiday homes for a commission..

[hagler]

if it is any consolation to anyone I own and run a pretty large Property Management company in Australia and the a lot of the same problems are evident here as in Thailand. When you have 100 or more individuals all owning a share of something the old adage "you can't please everyone" really comes to the fore. New "frontline" staff to the company go though an induction course on dealing with conflict and anger management. A lot of our time could be taken up with dealing with unreasonable owners or developers with personal axes to grind but we have systems in place to circumvent that so we can concentrate on doing what we are paid to do and to act in the best interests of the complex as a whole.

Edited September 25, 2010 by hagler