Thai Troops Retreat In Face Of 80,000 Protesters

[moresomekl]

Elected by what kind of parliament ? What logic ?

A parliament where the leading party the PPP was disolved by a court ?

A parliament where even a naiv would suspect that many MPs switched side in exchange for

some kind amnesty in minor case of corruption ?

A parliament elected by the people ? Certainly not , the people elected another

parliament last time they were consulted . What democratic legitimacy has this parliament

anyway ?

<snip>

Moresomekl, how often do you come up with this, even though it is explained to you again and again in great detail.

You know the drill:

All the MPs are elected by the people. The majority of the MPs elect one of their own to be PM. Coalition alliances change, which means a different majority select another MP to be the PM. That's how the system works here. It's also very similar to a lot of British Commonwealth systems.

I know the system , as i have explained here so many times that am tired .

Thats not my point . Thank you

[hammered]

On the parliamentary stuff I can see both arguements. Abhisit is undoubtedly a legally elected PM with full power. He does however have mandate problems. They are two different things.

[janderton]

Red shirts should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them makes a good case AGAINST democracy...sigh...

military and judiciary coups leaders should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them made a good cases AGAINST democracy...sigh...

p.s. there's someone as brave here to claim that a coup to depose an elected government is not against democracy (and uncostitutional)?

[SiriusBlack1]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

There doesn't have to be violence if Abhisit does the right thing and stands down, calling fresh elections, free and fair this time. The Army did the right thing, let's hope Abhisit gets the message.

[way2muchcoffee]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

There doesn't have to be violence if Abhisit does the right thing and stands down, calling fresh elections, free and fair this time. The Army did the right thing, let's hope Abhisit gets the message.

Abhisit already made that offer to the UDD. It was rejected. Abhisit required three things

1) Freedom to campaign for all parties in every region without threats, harassment, or violence.

2) Free and fair elections without vote buying or electoral fraud from any party

3) Separation of the Judicial Branch from the Executive and Legislative, i.e. no political interference in the Thaksin cases.

I wonder which one of these conditions was unacceptable to the UDD?

Remember that the UDD claims that their democracy movement/class war has nothing to do with Thaksin, so it could only be numbers 1 or 2. Hmmm.

Edited March 27, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[londonthai]

A bunch of absolute lunatics holding the country to ransom. And to boot some of these redshirted fiends are being egged on and supported by their 'farang boyfriends' I would probably do the same if I want rid of her.

I do not agree that lunatics are holding the country to ransom.

You are here on a thin ice saying that farang boyfriends are sending their girlfriends on protests, but it might be true, that many foreigners (as well as foreign media) have a more clear view of thai politics and are against an authoritarian government and the military running all the country.

a few days ago government advised it's citizens to check their mental health - maybe some farang extremist should do the same. It never hurts.

[Arkady]

Hooray for the reds! At last some hope for the poor people in Thailand.

If you look at Thailand's public finances with a knowledgeable eye , you will quickly see what the basic problems are. Thailand's expenditure on education, healthcare and social welfare as a percentage of GDP is tiny compared to developed countries and the overall tax base is also a much smaller percentage of GDP. In addition, corruption is endemic in Thailand which means that much of what is ostensibly earmarked for these budgets is stolen by politicians, lowering the actual expenditures. In order to improve the lot of ordinary Thais, the tax base must be increased substantially with most of the increases going to benefit the underprivileged and corruption must be eliminated.

I am sorry but I can't see any of this coming from Pheua Thai, a motley crew of upcountry godfather politicians led by a billionaire tycoon who got rich by ruthlessly exploiting the endemic corruption by bribing his way into monopolistic government concessions to the disadvantage of consumers and the general public. Thaksin and his family are hardly a shining example of how he would persuade his wealthy business cronies that they are going to have to pay a lot more in tax to benefit the poor. No, handing out a few crumbs of public money and pretending they came from his own pocket is more his style. The Democrats are admittedly not very dynamic but their plans to reform land tax and ultimately introduce an inheritance tax and to upgrade education substantially indicate that they at least understand the problem and would like to do something about it.

Nevertheless the poor would of course be delighted to see Thaksin return to power and play his smoke and mirror games to make them feel happy - like giving them a sugar buzz with no real sustinence.

[moresomekl]

So what happens when the army decides not to back down in a particular situation?

Eventually, there is going to be violence.

And the reds will come up with some lame propaganda to say that it was Abhisit's fault.

There doesn't have to be violence if Abhisit does the right thing and stands down, calling fresh elections, free and fair this time. The Army did the right thing, let's hope Abhisit gets the message.

Abhisit already made that offer to the UDD. It was rejected. Abhisit required three things

1) Freedom to campaign for all parties in every region without threats, harassment, or violence.

2) Free and fair elections without vote buying or electoral fraud from any party

3) Separation of the Judicial Branch from the Executive and Legislative, i.e. no political interference in the Thaksin cases.

I wonder which one of these conditions was unacceptable to the UDD whose democracy movement/class war has nothing to do with Thaksin?

Yes Abhisit is reasonable i think

It would seem as if the reds really need a new leadership

[mythBuster]

The yellow shirts could muster in their best days never more than 20,000 people, if nobody likes to lose face, it is easy to make a deal in which elections are hold let's say in six months time. At least Abhisit will have the chance to show he is legitimate. The fact that (certain) Bangkok people are starting to feeling the pinch is only a good sign. The protestors are on the street to cause inconvenience. If there was no pressure or inconvenience each and every demonstration was useless.

[moresomekl]

On the parliamentary stuff I can see both arguements. Abhisit is undoubtedly a legally elected PM with full power. He does however have mandate problems. They are two different things.

Exactly

Glad that at least someone understands what am trying to say .

[freedom4life]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Edited March 27, 2010 by freedom4life

[hammered]

The yellow shirts could muster in their best days never more than 20,000 people, if nobody likes to lose face, it is easy to make a deal in which elections are hold let's say in six months time. At least Abhisit will have the chance to show he is legitimate. The fact that (certain) Bangkok people are starting to feeling the pinch is only a good sign. The protestors are on the street to cause inconvenience. If there was no pressure or inconvenience each and every demonstration was useless.

a deal for a november/december election seems sensible to me. then again what do i know

by the way someone just bombed channel 5

[yoshiwara]

Hooray for the reds! At last some hope for the poor people in Thailand.

Forum red apologists have been asked on a number of occasions to name one red economic policy demand applicable.

Now it is your turn.

[moresomekl]

The fact that (certain) Bangkok people are starting to feeling the pinch is only a good sign. The protestors are on the street to cause inconvenience. If there was no pressure or inconvenience each and every demonstration was useless.

Yes thats the point of demonstrating

[elcent]

first injuries reported on TV5

tulsathit: In 10 mins, Jatuporn and Nuttawut will announce decision on what to do at Govt House.

Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:02:50 PM

tulsathit: bomb explosion reported at tV channel 5. initial reports said there were some troop injuries.

Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:01:41 PM

Edited March 27, 2010 by elcent

[junglist]

i am no expert but if bombs are going off in the main cities of Thailand and if the streets are being taken over by red yellow pink or green shirts then its time for some action

possibly starting with pulling the plug on the video feed from Dubai

or leaving the video feed and changing the audio feed to the cartoon channel

you sir are a wise man hahahahaha....... nice

[moresomekl]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Please do not generalise . Many if not most farangs , those i know at least , can see the point of the current demonstration and are symphatetic . Both parties have to compromise i guess . The red shirts on Thaksin because of his past behavior , and the governement on free and fair elections asap . If they do both side win , and Thailand wins .

[SanSaiExPat]

Probably want to avoid provoking these types of people, giving them an excuse and justifying violence. Good on them.

"these types of people"? What type of people would that be? People who believe in a democratically elected government not one imposed on them my a military coup? Live free or Die. I love my country but I fear my government.

[moresomekl]

first injuries reported on TV5

tulsathit: In 10 mins, Jatuporn and Nuttawut will announce decision on what to do at Govt House.

Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:02:50 PM

tulsathit: bomb explosion reported at tV channel 5. initial reports said there were some troop injuries.

Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:01:41 PM

This is not good

[vicco]

Good preventive move!

What is the army supposed to do in the case some of the

soldiers are attacked or otherwise provoked,

maybe even taken for ransom?

Someone needs urgently a provocation, some wrong move and this is at "all cost" to be avoided!

this confirms ,,,, a weak goverment ..

on the positive side ....the thai bart would be even stronger ,

if there was not the , current political unrest .

The Thaksin apologists can be very sly.

But it gives everybody else an idea of what the red tactics are.

It works like this:

First, the red forces nudge forward, hoping that the government forces will push back.

The reds can then go violent claiming 'self-defence'.

On the other hand, if the government forces step back, then the red apologists leap in to say the government is weak.

And claim a little red victory.

But the war is being lost by the reds.

And they know it.

There you go again...dammed if they do ....dammed if they dont. If just one of them says something a bit over the top....it's clear evidence that the whole movement

is violent.....if they do nothing, or back off a bit, they are cowards....if they engage in confrontation without violence....then its a victory for the government...or army...or somebody.

If one hot headed red makes a "violent rhetorical speech"...that should be the benchmark...never mind the hundreds of speeches and statements to the contrary made by other Reds.

If they only assemble 100,000+ on the first weekend...its a total failure.... they "promised a million" Actually they never "promised" anything...they may have had a goal

of getting a million people involved and if you add up all the people who have attended at various times they probably have.

when many of they go home on Monday or Tuesday because they have to make a living....even more evidence of failure

When tens of thousands more come to replace them....well of course that's just because they are being paid.

Everything is about Thaksin....if someone posts without being viciously anti-Thaksin....then they must be pro-Thaksin

If someone posts in a non biased " lets wait and see" mode....they are being deceptive....closet pro-Thaksin supporters.

I wonder....have you ever actually met or talked with any of these people? Do you really have a clue what they are really about?

They have "lost the war" and they know it???

Here is what I know: I live in a community where I am surrounded by red supporters.

I would say that 90% or more are not active (ie. they don't go to Bkk in pickup trucks to protest because they have work to do and families to feed)

Those that I have met who are active are very non-violent people..I recently had a whole work crew at my house doing some renovations...really good people...all pro-red.

Many of them think Thaksin was a hero....and many of them don't really like Thaksin any more than I do....for a variety of reasons.

They are not by any means all uneducated rice farmers... the family next door to me are university teachers and they support the reds

My wife monitors the red TV channel for about 14 hours a day...(and it drives me nuts)...and again she is a passive supporter but is not active. She most certainly does not

support acts of violent and disagrees totally with some of the red leaders statements and over the top rhetoric. Believe it or not a person can support a movement--without

agreeing with the extreme elements which seem to be present in most movements of this sort.

I know that your mind may be made up, but maybe somewhere in your makeup there may be just a little bit of space to acknowledge that everyone who puts on a red

T-shirt is not necessarily see Thaksin as a hero, nor are they a violent thug. Some of them may be a bit rough around the edges and I don't think their strategies are always well advised but that does not make them bad people.

I truly hope this whole situation an be resolved, but if the Thais are as vitriolic towards each other as the ex-pats seem to be then I feel it will not end well...and the ex-pats are not even directly involved...can you imagine if we were?? If you want to see real violence just wait for the protesters at the next G7/G8 meeting...or the trade unions in Greece when they get their "perks" cut.....or the French fishermen and farmers next them the subsides come up for review.

I fully expect to be accused of being a coy---or closet Thaksin supporter again....it's pretty standard operating procedure for some TV members.

I really don't know what else I can say to establish that I am not....believe whatever you like...as they say in Thailand "UP TO YOU"

I appreciate some of the well reasoned responses even when they disagree with my own views. There are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue, What is not helpful to anyone are the nasty, disrespectful cheap shots that often seem to dominate these "discussions" These frequently come from the those who have for whatever reasons developed some kind of anti-Thaksin fixation. Personally I have many reasons to dislike Mr. Thaksin. I would not wish to buy a used car from the man, but to me he is not the real issue

[Jingthing]

Probably want to avoid provoking these types of people, giving them an excuse and justifying violence. Good on them.

"these types of people"? What type of people would that be? People who believe in a democratically elected government not one imposed on them my a military coup? Live free or Die. I love my country but I fear my government.

The reds believe in a Thaksin led government, no matter what it takes to get that power. Nothing to do with democracy.

[yoshiwara]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Another Thaksin apologist goes ballistic.

Probably wants another bout of red violence similar to last Songkran.

The reds showing their true face.

[OzMick]

Red shirts should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them makes a good case AGAINST democracy...sigh...

military and judiciary coups leaders should go back to school they're obviously in need of an education. Watching them made a good cases AGAINST democracy...sigh...

p.s. there's someone as brave here to claim that a coup to depose an elected government is not against democracy (and uncostitutional)?

Certainly! Just because a government is elected doesn't mean that it has the right to pass un-democratic laws (such as condoning vote-buying); to stack the judiciary and military with political cronies, mates and members of your family; to attempt to change the constitution to allow them to hold onto power; to pass laws and use political power for personal gain. Under those circumstances, and I believe they all apply, removal of a government is required. BUT as Thaksin's mandate had expired and he was unable to form a government,

it really doesn't apply here, does it?

[Jingthing]

I reckon we will stop hearing the pathetic comparisons of Thaksin to Gandhi for a little while. There are limits even to propaganda.

[SanSaiExPat]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Please do not generalise . Many if not most farangs , those i know at least , can see the point of the current demonstration and are symphatetic . Both parties have to compromise i guess . The red shirts on Thaksin because of his past behavior , and the governement on free and fair elections asap . If they do both side win , and Thailand wins .

You would be the same fellow urging George Washington to compromise with King George's as he led the framing of the constitution at the Philadelphia Convention and again when he defeated the British at Yorktown troops you would have counseled him not to resort to violence but to let the British have their way. Brilliant advice sir.

[hammered]

Some reprots about reds backing down at GH

[Jingthing]

You would be the same fellow urging George Washington to compromise with King George's as he led the framing of the constitution at the Philadelphia Convention and again when he defeated the British at Yorktown troops you would have counseled him not to resort to violence but to let the British have their way. Brilliant advice sir.

Sure thing, and you would be the one defending that the total dictatorial thousand year Reich power of Adolph Hitler was legitimate because he was elected. You asked for that with your absurd George Washington comparison.

Lets be clear about this. Many of the red supporters here have been whipping up a violent, civil war mentality, egging on the reds to perform revolution for their dear leader, at any cost. They are not the voice of reason, they are the voice of madness.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Jingthing

[janderton]

Wonderful. A people that are labelled as red shirts-but in actuality have the guts/balls to face a gov't that has been put into power illegitimately. You Brits,American etc. can learn a lot from them. Your gov'ts have taken away most of what you enjoyed living for and with. How dare you criticise these protesters. Take your shirts-off and look back at the mirror..you see the yellow streak. I don't need to see your bare backs to know what nervous-paranoid-desperate-self-motivated opportunist and cowards you are. Sitting at your notebook or PC and criticising others who have the guts to make what was wrong, right again. Irregardless, who these protesters are...they are doing the RIGHT thing..what have YOU done to make it right in YOUR country? ..I thougt so.

Probably want to avoid provoking these types of people, giving them an excuse and justifying violence. Good on them.

"these types of people"? What type of people would that be? People who believe in a democratically elected government not one imposed on them my a military coup? Live free or Die. I love my country but I fear my government.

oh finally, i was starting to think to be an E.T.

thanks guys

[featography]

Probably want to avoid provoking these types of people, giving them an excuse and justifying violence. Good on them.

Yea right, whatever. What yellow shirt mentality

[animatic]

I'm pleased there is no violence. I hope they get their way and get an election. Abhisit isn't a bad man, he just isn't elected.

He was elected by the Minsters Of Parliament with full quorum, and all duly elected in 2007.

All the oppositions attempts at votes of no confidence have failed miserably.

By the laws of the land, and all logic, he is a 'Properly Elected Prime Minister of Thailand'.

And he is not a bad man, which is a rarity in this seat it seams.

Elected by what kind of parliament ? What logic ?

A parliament where the leading party the PPP was disolved by a court ?

A parliament where even a naiv would suspect that many MPs switched side in exchange for

some kind amnesty in minor case of corruption ?

A parliament elected by the people ? Certainly not , the people elected another

parliament last time they were consulted . What democratic legitimacy has this parliament

anyway ?

Abhisit who is a nice guy and good looking guy , cant do much now as he

dont have a mandate from the ppl , even if he had the strenght to take a decision

all by himself , a debatable issue .

He must know deep down that his venue in power

is a parody of democracy . And that is why the governement is weak .

He should have called a popular election long ago .

He or the democrat party might even win the election if he is a good

communicator after all .

The army will not move against peaceful rurals and i guess they must be very glad to withdraw .

Someone far higher then Abhisit and who has all his life been caring for the poor would not approve .

This is a sad situation for THailand . First an ex-PM that thinks he can buy the whole

legislative and judiciary with his money , and today a PM that has no popular mandate .

Hope that the situation will resolve itself peacefully . Both sides have shown great restrain

I hope this continues

It's so clear your desires over rule your observational abilities.

Oh well.