Why We Differ Unnecessarily, And So Often

[CMX]

There are over 70 pages of titles of threads saved on this forum. It took a while, but I have read or scanned those contributions. I was astonished to find so many opinions that were written in anger. Flamers on their face give the appearance of somebody having a bad day/week/year/life, and we know it, but it takes time to get past these entries. And even when sweet reason rules, perhaps the greatest amount of contention develops from misconceptions, ones that, without needing to do so, make hard plowing of our pages:

* Sport riding vs. utility riding (Error X)

Many of us hail from nations where riding bikes is done mostly for the fun of it. Others, not many, unless we include virtually all Thais, regard bikes as basic transportation for carrying people or goods. However else we define the matter, most of us writing on the forum have a “need for speed,” one that will allow us to challenge ourselves off-road or with curves or mountains – or even in beating all the other bikers away from the light. Some in this category may need to “make time” in country driving. Half of our entries are off-topic because we don’t recognize the OP’s question in their own context.

*Experiences that we’ve loved (Error Y)

Even if I’ve test ridden this or that type of bike, my heart is almost certainly captured by one transmission – motivated by the sense of control of a manual clutch, the instantaneous speed in shifting by a modern automatic, or the economics of using the favorite of Thias, the clutchless manual. Here again, not one is superior for everything, let alone for every rider. In every thread, when someone mentions a transmission type (which they own or want), others advance their own preferences – and that the OP is clearly experienced and knows what they want makes no difference.

*Refusal to accept that Thailand is Thailand (Error Z)

I brought with me to this country my memories, and sometimes I try to import my experiences and conclusions from the States and Europe here to the “Land of Smiles,” Reds, and Yellows (alphabetically). While it is comfortable to think back, depending upon old lessons learned, such an effort can be wrongheaded. I do not need here a bike to cruise across Nevada or to show off in the Black Hills (a summertime Bike “mecca” in the U.S.). Nor, driving in many nations in the Western world, have I ever encountered ANYTHING akin to Asian city traffic. New situations require accepting the realities. Out on the highways, I am never protected from surprises as I am in Western nations by truly-limited access highways or comparatively low population density in respective regions; in cities here, I am rarely going to be in the right gear for an “emergency.” (I admit that torque matters.)

*Refusal to Accept that Speed Kills (Error D)

I dislike this notion. As a civilian pilot, I know that sometimes the reverse is true, and can prove it by stalling or spinning the plane. As a biker, I don’t like it either, but I am afraid that it is true here, in most circumstances. Yes, in the traffic of cities and the multiplied surprises in Thailand’s countryside (think of the dogs asleep in the street alone), I feel certain that the risks of speed and the likelihood of more serious injury multiply with speed a great deal, perhaps mathematically or exponentially somehow. I admit that nobody publishes accurate figures for this, which I suspect goes to prove the statement; why hide the truth otherwise? I admit as well that I have no other worthwhile proofs to offer, though we all - there are apparently a few rare exceptions - can report having personally observed injury counts here, ourselves included as victims. It’s plainly riskier out there, away from dedicated tracks. I say that speed here kills more frequently, equipment notwithstanding. Comparisons to other Asian nations don’t change that fact.

*Number of Members (Statistical Error #1 on the forum)

Our numbers are comprised largely of motorcycle drivers, which for lack of another definition (as compared to motorbikes or scooters) I define by transmission and power. So far as I’m concerned our forum is dominated by owners of CBR’s, Phantoms, gray-book bikes, and upward to the expensive heavens of Bigbikedom. My definition almost demands the corollary that most (not all) motorcycle contributors are riding for personal pleasure (speed) much of the time, as opposed to utility alone. These riders, for good reasons of their own, would not be seen (except folded dead across the rear of the saddle) on 110cc Scoopi-I, let alone Suzuki’s double-eyed Jelly-o, and sometimes even delude themselves that they have selected the correct bike, a big one, for a city-traffic’s instant emergencies, or equally illusory: They imagine that their reflexes today are still as quick as they were when they were 30 years old. Fighter-jet pilots get promoted upstairs, while we bikers imagine the reflexes of youth. Using a 125cc Wave to explore the whole country is more likely to bring rewards than squeezing a Harley cruiser across Bangkok, but this will never be apparent in the flow of discussion on this forum.

*The Fuel Injection “Controversy” (Manufacturers’ Spin)

We have accepted that we have a debate on our hands about fuel injection. This is silly, as the argument is almost pointless (except for the increased cost for the purchase of a fuel-injected machine, when it applies). Fuel injection itself has some small cost advantages in use, including fuel savings by type of fuel (main advantage) or reduced use of fuel (a lesser improvement almost to the point, with smaller bikes, of insignificance). It may confer slightly better acceleration in lower speeds, but not enough to represent bragging rights. What fuel injection does in these smaller machines, and the reason for its existence (in spite of manufacturers’ clamorous publicity for mileage) is emission limitation, and buyers pay for that in the new purchase prices. If an injected Honda CBR150-i is eventually offered here, we will pay a good deal more to save the environment to a degree roughly determined by the size of the engine as against human carbon emissions, but the earlier carburetor version will do essentially as well otherwise in propelling the bike, particularly if the carb is tuned for specific use. In short, the debate about fuel efficiency/injection is far overblown at anything like present day fuel prices. And anyway, Honda’s extravagant data claims for mileage derive from a test formula only very distantly related to driving conditions in Thailand. (One must admit that presently introduced fuel injection may at once be perfectly reliable.)

Except for gaining attention (see this, see me?), spinning our wheels is pointless. Our basic problem, as I see it, is not putting ourselves in the position of another contributors by way of understanding their points of view. It is not that we are not experienced enough, it is that many of us, particularly newbies in Thailand (I’m an example) are too much married to our favorite solution. I know that I’m going to be ranting about my bike(s) as soon as I commit, because the choice I make will be better than yours.

Edited March 31, 2010 by CMX

[Fishenough]

I’d like to answer threads title; because we can. The very nature of man, been happening around sandbox’s since we were young and always will. But you brought up some obvious points nicely, such as no one around said sandbox is at risk of dying.

You didn’t cover one important point that is pertinent for a ‘Bikes in Thailand Forum’; Riding in Thailand is freaking fun, fun, fun. I always favor a positive contribution rule when posting, but.

Cheers

[AnthonyR1]

a bit of free time on your hands CMX? geezuz that's quite the undertaking

[LivinLOS]

tl.dr

[PeaceBlondie]

Most of my Texas bikes are immaterial. The CBR150 I bought in mid-2003 is now outclassed. I no longer exceed 125 kph. My Thai crashes were below 30 kph. As always, my bike is my main mode of transport.

[guzzi850m2]

Well interesting poster.

I use MC as main transport here in Pattaya due to heavy traffic and because I enjoy riding. I use my car a couple of times a week for major shopping and the occasionally trip with the family to the wife's family up North.

My Harley is for sale now sadly, but we just got a son so I don't really have time to use the bike for what its build for: long range touring, not enjoy driving it in Pattaya for "show". Before my son arrived we always took the Harley for long trips and didn't buy the car before he was born.

I agree that some TV posters are driving very fast, just look at some of the video clips they attached , oh man they are living a dangerous life or maybe I am getting old (48) . I prefer to cruise on the HD at 100-140 km/h and enjoy the scenery.

What ever you ride, ride safely.

[BigBikeBKK]

I agree that some TV posters are driving very fast, just look at some of the video clips they attached , oh man they are living a dangerous life or maybe I am getting old (48) . I prefer to cruise on the HD at 100-140 km/h and enjoy the scenery.

What ever you ride, ride safely.

Bikes are dangerous. Period. Whether you come off at 120km/hr or 220km/hr, on a public road your chances of surviving are next to none...

Read somewhere that the vast majority of bike fatalities here in Thailand are alcohol related...

Keep her shiny side up!

Tony

[Garry]

I agree that some TV posters are driving very fast, just look at some of the video clips they attached , oh man they are living a dangerous life or maybe I am getting old (48) . I prefer to cruise on the HD at 100-140 km/h and enjoy the scenery.

What ever you ride, ride safely.

Bikes are dangerous. Period. Whether you come off at 120km/hr or 220km/hr, on a public road your chances of surviving are next to none...

Read somewhere that the vast majority of bike fatalities here in Thailand are alcohol related...

Keep her shiny side up!

Tony

I think it boils down to that famous quote Tony.......SHIT HAPPENS

[robblok]

I agree that some TV posters are driving very fast, just look at some of the video clips they attached , oh man they are living a dangerous life or maybe I am getting old (48) . I prefer to cruise on the HD at 100-140 km/h and enjoy the scenery.

What ever you ride, ride safely.

Bikes are dangerous. Period. Whether you come off at 120km/hr or 220km/hr, on a public road your chances of surviving are next to none...

Read somewhere that the vast majority of bike fatalities here in Thailand are alcohol related...

Keep her shiny side up!

Tony

Im sure your a much better biker then me but im pretty sure there is a higher chance for an accident when you go faster. (sure there are exceptions if your going a lot slower then the rest of the traffic) but if your going 220km hour you got a lot less time to react then lets say you go 110km hour (half the time) not to mention brake distance ect.

Im also sure you could do 220km h safer then i could do 140km but still the faster you go the more risk it has. This is in no way a flame.

Excessive speed does kill.

[Tigersachsclub]

I agree that some TV posters are driving very fast, just look at some of the video clips they attached , oh man they are living a dangerous life or maybe I am getting old (48) . I prefer to cruise on the HD at 100-140 km/h and enjoy the scenery.

What ever you ride, ride safely.

Bikes are dangerous. Period. Whether you come off at 120km/hr or 220km/hr, on a public road your chances of surviving are next to none...

Read somewhere that the vast majority of bike fatalities here in Thailand are alcohol related...

Keep her shiny side up!

Tony

Im sure your a much better biker then me but im pretty sure there is a higher chance for an accident when you go faster. (sure there are exceptions if your going a lot slower then the rest of the traffic) but if your going 220km hour you got a lot less time to react then lets say you go 110km hour (half the time) not to mention brake distance ect.

Im also sure you could do 220km h safer then i could do 140km but still the faster you go the more risk it has. This is in no way a flame.

Excessive speed does kill.

I think excessive speed kills too but Thailand has some more things to add as dangers on the road itself...as i find hitting a dog with 140 kph or 220 kph will have the same result really.

There is an interesting post on secret soi which was initially posted by Bard(Bard,thanks for letting me steal it ) and i found this very interesting, this was posted in conjunction of an Hp's limitiation and accident reduction (in europe) please note who is at higher accident risk(its the bike with the lower speed):

Number 1 on accident prone bikes was/is cruisers and tour bikes

Number 2 was/is Dual Sport

Number 3 was/is 125 - 600 cc bikes

Number 4 was/is sport and supersport bikes

This contradicted the popular belief that Sport and supersport is most dangerous. The German study group concluded that the following could be human factors.

Cruisers was mainly ridden by middle age people with no biking experience, and only ridden in a limited amount per year. Hence the group was inexperienced.

Dual Sport had mainly accidents off the road and was mainly due to human error, to high speed in rough terrain or in bad traction, or in areas with limited sight. Also human error by moving the bike as on-road.

125 - 600 cc was mainly due to inexperienced riders, new riders, very young riders with a lot to prove etc.

Lastly the Sport and Supersport bikes was mostly ridden by bikers who had experience, 89% of the accidents caused by the biker on these bikes were due to young inexperienced males, or due to drunk riders.

Back to the speed ....a good biker should be able to know when to ride higher speeds and when to slow down . reaction time is crucial too and doing the right thing at the right moment will safe lives....so does the gear play an important role. I have seen most death here in the "countryside" usually drunk , on flipflops, no helmets , just shorts , no shirts and less than 60kph. I personally think that alcohol is a much bigger problem , in percentage i assume there is a much higher accident rate amongst scooters than on bigger bikes ....... and yes, bikes are dangerous if you don't bother to work on riding skills it will be even more so....never stop learning never stop having your eyes everywhere while riding ...

happy trails,

Tiger/Sachs Club - Mbox

[ScubaBuddha]

Concerning speed...I believe it really depends on a lot of factors. You can talk generally or you can talk specifically.

Generally, excessive speed kills, certainly there can be no debate about that. But there are places, even in Thailand, where "opening her up" can be done reasonably safely.

Specifically, I and some others have found that riding at least as fast as the fastest cars, which means I am riding faster than the Thai's stacked 3 to 6 deep on their Honda Dreams and Clicks, samlors, tuk tuks, pickups and lauries full of Burmese labourers, baht buses, water trucks, and usually tour buses, is the safest. I do not think it is very safe to be constantly overtaken by the airport racers, BMW's and black Fortuners with mere cm's to spare. And still I will be passed by the occasional loud souped up Sonic or Wave with engine bored out and exhaust baffles removed and skinny tires driven by a helmet-less 14-22 year old Thai boy who appears to have a death wish and is splitting lanes/overtaking between opposite traveling cars with wrist fully twisted.

Another reason for travelling a bit faster is that Thai's expect most traffic to be speeding.

Irrespective of speed, there are many things you can do while riding which reduce your chances of crashing. Obviously 100% attention is needed. Learning to identify threats is very important. Lane positioning to increase both your ability to see dangers ahead and to increase others ability to see you. This bit can be tricky for the new rider in Thailand, as there is no concept of lane ownership here. Ride too far left and inevitably the motorbike driven by Mom and packed with kids and the dog will come hurling out of the next soi without looking, as they do. Ride left and you get clipped by the cars driving in the "VIP" lane. Ride middle and your on the oil drippings. Always leave yourself an "out." As most of us have learned, I car/truck/tourbus coming towards you when you are on a motorbike will not hesitate to overtake and expect you to move entirely onto the shoulder to allow him to use "your" lane. Also vehicles here commonly apex corners swinging across all lanes ignoring the white lines dividing lanes or anyone in them. Yellow center-lines mean nothing to Thai drivers, and the white lane dividers mean even less.

The most important thing when riding in Thailand is to learn to anticipate the other drivers actions. Knowing that the 18 wheeler ahead is moving left because he is actually preparing to swing right to make a U turn. Be prepared for the pickup in front of which is overloaded with Durian to start dropping the foul smelling fruit into your path at any moment. Check your right side mirror before turning right because Thai's drivers will often overtake you on the right while you are turning right, a move which causes a lot of accidents and cannot be describe as anything other than suicidal. This and has happened to me 3 or 4 times now. If I hadn't checked the mirror first, I probably wouldn't be here now.

All of these things are just as important as speed.

Ride safe and have fun.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[CMX]

Interesting that so many responses focus on speed. No arguing about FUN! I come from a location where it's winter half the year - I'm here now, selling up, and without a bike to ride, definitely blathered too long.

I cannot accept European statistics as applying here. I've driven a 2 wheeler back and forth over the Pyrenees, across the Alps, from the Swiss border to Hamburg, Denmark, and through Benelux countries back to Paris, and more recently for 2 years in France, mostly Lyon. Driving rules, police enforcement, not to mention driving populations in their habits and ages seem different to me - am I wrong? I would not compare the U.S. experience to Thailand either - in any way of which I can recall, except FUN. (City driving can be work; in Thailand, risky work.)

Also, hitting a dog at 80 or 140 (OP defining here the example of the incident) is going to be awful either way, but avoiding the sleeper altogether far, far easier in the former case - and the relative speeds make the difference as to the degree.

But of course, what I was trying to express was the number of times folks don't simply go "Off Topic" - it's the personal luggage we bring to any discussion. And to me, the problem (really foolish to hope) hinges in really taking in what the OP asked. Case in recent point: Fellow we see a lot online about bikes, says he wants to get a little auto for short trips and explains why; lady of the house will be learning on it. Responder says manual shift is faster. Here, we'd call that error "Duh."

Edited April 2, 2010 by CMX

[CMX]

PS

Cannot agree more about SB's precise and concise advice. Had not in my "alert" arsenal a Durian warning. Thanks.

In Thai cities particularly, I think of "lane positioning" as being more multifaceted than the most complex diamond, and I will never be completely in control of all the factors - maybe cut down the odds.

And I forgot to mention that falling at a higher speed stings more than falling at a lower one and requires a larger bandage sometimes, everything else being equal.

[witold]

That is a very good summary.  Different people have different riding styles and expectations.  When asking questions and seeking advice, it is always best to give people an idea of what sort of riding you do.  There is no such thing as an average rider.  

Bikes are dangerous. Period. Whether you come off at 120km/hr or 220km/hr, on a public road your chances of surviving are next to none...  

Tony

Per mile traveled, the guy going 220km/hr will have a lot more accidents than the guy going 120km/hr.  It's just a fact of physics that one simply doesn't have as much reaction time, decision time, and physical distance to avoid things the higher the speed.  

I also disagree with your speed and survival assessment.  I have had 2 getoffs at 80-90km and I walked away from both.  My full leathers and gear have done a great job.  I know of many similar cases like this.  Of course if you don't wear protective gear you are very often in big trouble in an accident.  But if you wear proper gear, you keep your fingers crossed that you don't hit a tree/etc as you slide to a stop and often times you will not and survive with no injuries/minor injuries.  Gear saves lives, gear saves a lot of pain.  Not always... but quite often.