Thai Protesters Target Bangkok's Tourist Centre

[traderjm]

Thats a good thing. This is Democracy and the atttitude of some poster on here against the Reds is disturbing and disgusting IMO.

I'm in Thailand as well and I think you are way off base... how is it democratic to have one very small minority dictate to the over whelming majority?

The REDS are thugs and are removing any doubt about that with Sat and Sunday's actions... any one supporting them is proving the point it's NOT about anything other than bringing back you know who

[Neurath]

In their day to day lives no group of people suppresses the freedoms of the Thai peasantry more than their local chao por and the police. Interestingly, both groups are aligned with this movement that says it seeks to empower these very same people. You don't think there's a rub there?

This would not be the first 'revolution' to turn on those who have 'joined' it for what is perceived by the grass roots as ideologically impure reasons. OK that's a bit wordy- but I think you get my drift. If the people have learned that they can, as a united force, challenge not just the gov't but the Privy council= what is to stop them challenging those who exploit them day by day- regardless of what color shirt the powermongers wore back in the halcion days of 2010?

But I fear that I am being too idealistic- it takes generations to change a culture- especially one where well being is determined by playing ball in the arena of nobless oblige- still- this might be a beginning.

My worst fear, which I think I share with you, is that this will turn out to be nothing more than a demand for rights- but no committment to responsibilities. But like all fears- that is projection into a dimension none of us can know. The mere fact that the nature of Thai society- the cultural underpinnings are being questioned can not be a bad thing.

What was it that Mor Weng said to Abhisit? - "You be quiet, I'm older you listen." The underpinnings seem to be pretty strong with him.

[blaze]

I just find it very hard feel a great deal of sympathy for movement that has Thaksin as its mascot (and he is at least that) - a man who did so much to destroy the rule of law and constitutional government - and Chalerm as its titular parliamentary leader (a man who has also done so much for the rule of law and it's equal application to friend, foe and family.) My feeling listening to what Jatuporn et.al. have to say is that they are unhappy about have particular masters - not that they're unhappy having masters per-se. Their justifactory vocabulary concerning 'democracy' seems to be just that - a justificatory vocabulary. Dangerous, very dangerous as we've seen in this region over the last 40 years.

I think this is probably more of a problem for foreigners than locals. THe locals- including the yellows- know that Thaksin was no different in terms of corruption and power seeking than anybody else with power in this land. Their objection wasn't that Thaksin was corrupt- I don't believe that- no- their objection was that by 'empowering' the poor he was threatening the very core of a system that has worked for more than a few bigwigs, very well over the generations.

I too wish they had a different mascot but we have to examine just how they interpret that mascot- again- he might have been an SOB but he was OUR SOB and in removing him you took something from US. So it's not 'about THaksin' - not really- it is about 'us'. I'm sure that the attitude among the reds is that no matter who threatened to empower them, the 'system' would intervene. Thaksin is a symbol of that intervention. Maybe that's the way they see it- I don't know.

[blaze]

In their day to day lives no group of people suppresses the freedoms of the Thai peasantry more than their local chao por and the police. Interestingly, both groups are aligned with this movement that says it seeks to empower these very same people. You don't think there's a rub there?

This would not be the first 'revolution' to turn on those who have 'joined' it for what is perceived by the grass roots as ideologically impure reasons. OK that's a bit wordy- but I think you get my drift. If the people have learned that they can, as a united force, challenge not just the gov't but the Privy council= what is to stop them challenging those who exploit them day by day- regardless of what color shirt the powermongers wore back in the halcion days of 2010?

But I fear that I am being too idealistic- it takes generations to change a culture- especially one where well being is determined by playing ball in the arena of nobless oblige- still- this might be a beginning.

My worst fear, which I think I share with you, is that this will turn out to be nothing more than a demand for rights- but no committment to responsibilities. But like all fears- that is projection into a dimension none of us can know. The mere fact that the nature of Thai society- the cultural underpinnings are being questioned can not be a bad thing.

What was it that Mor Weng said to Abhisit? - "You be quiet, I'm older you listen." The underpinnings seem to be pretty strong with him.

It will take generations- sixty years after the civil rights movement, there are still blacks in the US who defer to whites just on the basis of color- and there are whites who expect that deference.

[traderjm]

I suppose I should put a "shock" disclaimer on that post to warn people not in Bangkok who rely on reading the Bangkok Post and The Nation for their news that, contrary to their "un-named sources" who report all sorts of outrageous claims, and contrary to their reporting, lots of people support the reds, as can be seen on the streets of Bangkok.

So please, unless you are in Bangkok and see with your own eyes whats going on, be very wary of what you read in the BP and TN, as its extremely "biased" due to their "yellow" support and "yellow" owners.

Are you drunk?? The support of the REDS by the citizens of BKK has been dropping week after week... not the paid protesters but the people that actually make BKK their home now. You know the place where they come to work and earn money that they send back up country to help their families, I guess this Peaceful and lawful protests aren't hurting any of those every day folks are they??

[lannarebirth]

In their day to day lives no group of people suppresses the freedoms of the Thai peasantry more than their local chao por and the police. Interestingly, both groups are aligned with this movement that says it seeks to empower these very same people. You don't think there's a rub there?

This would not be the first 'revolution' to turn on those who have 'joined' it for what is perceived by the grass roots as ideologically impure reasons. OK that's a bit wordy- but I think you get my drift. If the people have learned that they can, as a united force, challenge not just the gov't but the Privy council= what is to stop them challenging those who exploit them day by day- regardless of what color shirt the powermongers wore back in the halcion days of 2010?

But I fear that I am being too idealistic- it takes generations to change a culture- especially one where well being is determined by playing ball in the arena of nobless oblige- still- this might be a beginning.

My worst fear, which I think I share with you, is that this will turn out to be nothing more than a demand for rights- but no committment to responsibilities. But like all fears- that is projection into a dimension none of us can know. The mere fact that the nature of Thai society- the cultural underpinnings are being questioned can not be a bad thing.

What was it that Mor Weng said to Abhisit? - "You be quiet, I'm older you listen." The underpinnings seem to be pretty strong with him.

In Thailand, culture transcends ideology. In a culture where people don't know who they are if they can't identify who's "bigger" than them and who's "lower" than them, there will always be someone who will present themselves to be their "patron". That's nothing like democracy and you're not going to change those attitudes this weekend, this year or this decade. What you can do is begin to offer good governance, ensure fair elections and incrementally move towards a fair and just society. Nothing I see in the current leadership of the Red Shirt movement suggests that is their goal, despite their fiery rhetoric.

[animatic]

How many 'Revolutions' in history can be noted for eating their own supporters soon after reaching a critical mass.

Sure the revolution supplanted the old guard, but then the infighting within a barely extant control structure,

took out many of the more thoughtful, but less zealotous minds in short order as the more aggressive, won the infighting.

Only to find they had not the skills at administration to make the new social control entity function,

and so are shortly themselves are eaten in large bites. Robespiere, Marais and Danton come to mind.

But also closer to home: Hun Sen survived, but think of the minds lost that could have brought

Cambodia into the 21st century better and stronger.

Revolutions are tigers tails with uncertain ends and never to be wished on any land.

The idea that Jarapob will be pulling the political philosophy strings this time next year is quite scary.

Edited April 4, 2010 by animatic

[donmac]

Democracy is mob rule.

[Neurath]

I just find it very hard feel a great deal of sympathy for movement that has Thaksin as its mascot (and he is at least that) - a man who did so much to destroy the rule of law and constitutional government - and Chalerm as its titular parliamentary leader (a man who has also done so much for the rule of law and it's equal application to friend, foe and family.) My feeling listening to what Jatuporn et.al. have to say is that they are unhappy about have particular masters - not that they're unhappy having masters per-se. Their justifactory vocabulary concerning 'democracy' seems to be just that - a justificatory vocabulary. Dangerous, very dangerous as we've seen in this region over the last 40 years.

I think this is probably more of a problem for foreigners than locals. THe locals- including the yellows- know that Thaksin was no different in terms of corruption and power seeking than anybody else with power in this land. Their objection wasn't that Thaksin was corrupt- I don't believe that- no- their objection was that by 'empowering' the poor he was threatening the very core of a system that has worked for more than a few bigwigs, very well over the generations.

I too wish they had a different mascot but we have to examine just how they interpret that mascot- again- he might have been an SOB but he was OUR SOB and in removing him you took something from US. So it's not 'about THaksin' - not really- it is about 'us'. I'm sure that the attitude among the reds is that no matter who threatened to empower them, the 'system' would intervene. Thaksin is a symbol of that intervention. Maybe that's the way they see it- I don't know.

I think you're absolutely right about how Thaksin is seen by many in the movement and right about why they see him that way. However, this means that the continually reiterated talk by the Red Leadership about 'double standards' is piffle and, dare I say it, a 'double standard' about double standards.

There's a worrying tendency (I don't include you) for those looking in on this situation to romanticize the Red Shirt movement seeing it through the lens of what they would like it to be rather than taking the Reds at their word and seeing clearly what they actually and concretely say they want. If it's really no double standards and equality under the law then all fine and good. Coming from the mouths of Thaksin, Jutaporn et.al. and Phua Thai I don't buy it. I fear it's more a bastardization of the egalitarian rhetoric they cynically deploy.

[jdinasia]

I suppose I should put a "shock" disclaimer on that post to warn people not in Bangkok who rely on reading the Bangkok Post and The Nation for their news that, contrary to their "un-named sources" who report all sorts of outrageous claims, and contrary to their reporting, lots of people support the reds, as can be seen on the streets of Bangkok.

So please, unless you are in Bangkok and see with your own eyes whats going on, be very wary of what you read in the BP and TN, as its extremely "biased" due to their "yellow" support and "yellow" owners.

Are you drunk?? The support of the REDS by the citizens of BKK has been dropping week after week... not the paid protesters but the people that actually make BKK their home now. You know the place where they come to work and earn money that they send back up country to help their families, I guess this Peaceful and lawful protests aren't hurting any of those every day folks are they??

Simply put --- those that only rely on English language dailies in the Kingdom, do have limited access to the ideas behind some of what is going on. People that read and speak Thai and are IN the kingdom also have the news, the live broadcasts, the ability to read what is written on the signs and stages of the Reds, the ability to see the pictures of Thaksin on everything, have heard Thaksin speak about his payments to the mob .... etc etc etc.

From that we know that the Nation is slanted against the Reds -- that the BP is less so but is still trying to sell papers etc etc etc ... but that NONE of them are lying or excluding the truth.

Trying to make a case for massive (or even growing) support for the Reds in BKK is a no go. Trying to make a case that the Red shirts are not all about Thaksin also doesn't fly. Trying to make a case that the reds are not paid to protest fails the test too.

But the return of some of the former members of the board certainly does show

[blaze]

In their day to day lives no group of people suppresses the freedoms of the Thai peasantry more than their local chao por and the police. Interestingly, both groups are aligned with this movement that says it seeks to empower these very same people. You don't think there's a rub there?

This would not be the first 'revolution' to turn on those who have 'joined' it for what is perceived by the grass roots as ideologically impure reasons. OK that's a bit wordy- but I think you get my drift. If the people have learned that they can, as a united force, challenge not just the gov't but the Privy council= what is to stop them challenging those who exploit them day by day- regardless of what color shirt the powermongers wore back in the halcion days of 2010?

But I fear that I am being too idealistic- it takes generations to change a culture- especially one where well being is determined by playing ball in the arena of nobless oblige- still- this might be a beginning.

My worst fear, which I think I share with you, is that this will turn out to be nothing more than a demand for rights- but no committment to responsibilities. But like all fears- that is projection into a dimension none of us can know. The mere fact that the nature of Thai society- the cultural underpinnings are being questioned can not be a bad thing.

What was it that Mor Weng said to Abhisit? - "You be quiet, I'm older you listen." The underpinnings seem to be pretty strong with him.

In Thailand, culture transcends ideology. In a culture where people don't know who they are if they can't identify who's "bigger" than them and who's "lower" than them, there will always be someone who will present themselves to be their "patron". That's nothing like democracy and you're not going to change those attitudes this weekend, this year or this decade. What you can do is begin to offer good governance, ensure fair elections and incrementally move towards a fair and just society. Nothing I see in the current leadership of the Red Shirt movement suggests that is their goal, despite their fiery rhetoric.

Well put=- and I don't totally disagree- perhaps this is the beginning of a serious analysis of just what Thai society is- how it works- who fine tunes the culture and to whose interest. Questions like that. And perhaps --- it's not. Still, there are a academics complaining about the paternalistic nature of Thai society- if this stuff is finding its way to 'the masses'- we could be seeing the beginning of something quite unexpected- as a woman demonstrater informed a journalist- "we don't just follow anymore- we are like Americans!" (that should set off a s-storm).

[blaze]

I think you're absolutely right about how Thaksin is seen by many in the movement and right about why they see him that way. However, this means that the continually reiterated talk by the Red Leadership about 'double standards' is piffle and, dare I say it, a 'double standard' about double standards.

There's a worrying tendency (I don't include you) for those looking in on this situation to romanticize the Red Shirt movement seeing it through the lens of what they would like it to be rather than taking the Reds at their word and seeing clearly what they actually and concretely say they want. If it's really no double standards and equality under the law then all fine and good. Coming from the mouths of Thaksin, Jutaporn et.al. and Phua Thai I don't buy it. I fear it's more a bastardization of the egalitarian rhetoric they cynically deploy.

I most certainly DO include me in that category (of people reading more into this movement than it deserves)- I worry about that too- and hence, my support of the 'movement' is tenuous at best.

Off for the day- it's been enjoyable.

respectully,

Blaze

Edited April 4, 2010 by blaze

[eurasianthai]

I have European relatives who are in Bangkok for the time being and go out from morning to evening.

And yesterday evening, they recorded their encounter with the red shirts next to Lumpini Park.

Were they afraid? Not at all, they quite enjoyed it actually. Nice people according to them.

So contrary to what is reported in some English speaking newspapers, I do not really think they shot themselves in the foot by going to the tourist places...

[SurinLA]

Support is strong from who? I am not in Bangkok but I am watching live TV from different channel. People are looking for the shades because it is so hot. It is about 5 - 6000 left at Rajaprasong. Nobody goes around giving food and water beside their own people(reds).

Cars with REDS driving around are the same cars drove around yesterday.

The don't use forces because they don't want to harm fellow Thais. The deadlines keep passing because they don't want any confrontation and those crazy leaders are crazys and they can harm the city and people.

There are update news regularly on internet or tvs.

Hi!

What channel you are looking?

I have here only Thai television and there comes nothing about some red masses in Bangkok. Just Abhisit from time to time, He talks about thai strength trough unity. And a lot of clips with happy people waving the Thai flag are shown or your daily soaps. but nothing about red people power.

The whole red thing is a total hoax. Don't get panic.

Sathorn has sunshine and is quite like it is on sunday.

How is the weather in LA?

Thanks for asking, it's beautiful day. Here are some TV channel and newspaper online.

http://www.prd.go.th/tv/tv.html

http://www.astvnews.com/

http://www.thaipbs.or.th/Live

http://www.free-thaitv.com/

://http://www.astvnews.com/

http://www.redshirttv.com

newspaper; matichon, manager, bangkok post, www.prachatai.com ( red newspaper)

www.thairat.co.th

[Neurath]

In Thailand, culture transcends ideology. In a culture where people don't know who they are if they can't identify who's "bigger" than them and who's "lower" than them, there will always be someone who will present themselves to be their "patron". That's nothing like democracy and you're not going to change those attitudes this weekend, this year or this decade. What you can do is begin to offer good governance, ensure fair elections and incrementally move towards a fair and just society. Nothing I see in the current leadership of the Red Shirt movement suggests that is their goal, despite their fiery rhetoric.

Well put=- and I don't totally disagree- perhaps this is the beginning of a serious analysis of just what Thai society is- how it works- who fine tunes the culture and to whose interest. Questions like that. And perhaps --- it's not. Still, there are a academics complaining about the paternalistic nature of Thai society- if this stuff is finding its way to 'the masses'- we could be seeing the beginning of something quite unexpected- as a woman demonstrater informed a journalist- "we don't just follow anymore- we are like Americans!" (that should set off a s-storm).

s-storm

How truly she speaks! With a few disclaimers and change of register she can see that she always and already has just that! I don't want to upset my fellow Americans, but the relationship of the United States to international law is precisely the relationship of Thais to domestic law - it's a never-ending battle to determine who will by subject to it (you) and who will be above it (me). Why? Because I am/will be a benevolent master and you are not. There's nothing particularly egalitarian about that.

[eurasianthai]

it's a never-ending battle to determine who will by subject to it (you) and who will be above it (me). Why? Because I am/will be a benevolent master and you are not. There's nothing particularly egalitarian about that.

If history is any indication, a minority ruling a country, however "benevolant" this minority is, has no future.

[Gary A]

Who is in Bangkok, who isn't in Bangkok? What's the difference? I know occasional visitors who know much more about Thailand than people who have lived here for many years. I am more skeptical of the long time Bangkok residents who have never been out of Bangkok and then proclaim themselves to be Thai political as well as cultural experts. Yellow shirts, red shirts, they both have their champions and I'd wager that their champions are just as corrupt as the next politician. Money is power and people with money are usually respected (maybe feared) no matter how they got their money. Does anyone know of any politician who has been jailed for taking bribes?

[Neurath]

it's a never-ending battle to determine who will by subject to it (you) and who will be above it (me). Why? Because I am/will be a benevolent master and you are not. There's nothing particularly egalitarian about that.

If history is any indication, a minority ruling a country, however "benevolant" this minority is, has no future.

I certainly hope you're right, but history is very fickle in this respect as often as not replacing one minority with another that has been clever enough to spout colorful democratic rhetoric on one hand whilst the other is behind the back organizing a monopolizing of power for it's own benefit rather than for masses that they enlist. Heartbreaking.

[geriatrickid]

Also Article 70 might be appropriate.

Section 70: Every person shall have the duty to defend the country and obey the law.

Careful there. Obeying the law would inconvenience a great many foreigners. They delight in stating that they love Thailand because of the lawlessness. Do you want some of those great bars that pimp out locals to have to shut down? Noodle shop owners to close because they don't have work permits? Foreign "developers" to actually build according to fire & safety code? What of the time share touts?

What's that you say? You meant only that this would apply for the Thais? ahhhh gotchya.I understand now. One law for Bwana and another for the workers.

Someone might also interpret your recommendation interpret to mean that it's time to remove some of the entrenched leadership and institutions along with meddlesome opinionated foreigners This might prove a tad inconvenient for many foreign guests in Thailand.

[johncitizen]

More double standards

EDIT: Latest TVisa news updated just reminded me of the fact that Thailand still only has an ACTING Police Chief. I see the Third Hand hasn't lost any influence over the Government...

EDITEDIT: Kind of fitting, considering Thailand only has an ACTING Government in the first place.

Edited April 4, 2010 by johncitizen

[bob6023]

Yes, I hope Abhisit is smart enough to realise that there comes a point where diplomacy looks like weakness ( a lesson the Israelis, Iraninans, the Burmese and N.Koreans have all taught the U.S in varous ways in recent years), and that there comes a point where the State's promise to uphold the law must be backed by force when wantonly disregarded.

I said this about the yellow shirt invasion of the airport in 2008, and the fact that the government didn't have the physical power to stop it was why they had to go. Abhisit should not make the same mistake. The reds are destroying the country; they'v had their chance to put the case to the gov't adn the public, they've been offered more and indulged for far longer than any other government in the world - democratic or totalitatirian - would have done.

It's time to see who's who.

Its time to kick ass and take names...........................................

[FreedomDude]

I would just like to offer a CHEERS for the sandwich shop Au Bon Pain - Siam. I just got back from a stroll amongst the enthusiastic, peaceful, nonthreatening Red Shirts down near Central World and Paragon. Amidst all of the closed and shuttered shopping malls and restaurants, Au Bon Pain remains open and operating as if it were a normal day. The fear mongering over the invasion of the Reds is completely ridiculous. Hats off to Au Bon Pain!

[Credo]

Well, I must say one thing positive about all this. I have managed to save some money. I've been sticking close to home instead of out and about shopping, going to the cinema and out to eat.

[Netfan]

I would just like to offer a CHEERS for the sandwich shop Au Bon Pain - Siam. I just got back from a stroll amongst the enthusiastic, peaceful, nonthreatening Red Shirts down near Central World and Paragon. Amidst all of the closed and shuttered shopping malls and restaurants, Au Bon Pain remains open and operating as if it were a normal day. The fear mongering over the invasion of the Reds is completely ridiculous. Hats off to Au Bon Pain!

So then if its just like a normal day, the reds are not accomplishing anything. Because, you know, I thought their plan was to disrupt life in Bangkok so much that the government would have to resign and life in Thailand will be perfect, just like it was under Thaksin. But if everything is normal, then they have another failure on their hands.

[PawyiLee]

Animatic, are you saying you're actually a progressive? How the hel_l can't you be supporting the Reds then?

The truly progressive stopped apologising for the PAD after the coup, and many of them are marching out the front of Central World as I type.

Realise this movement goes beyond Thaksin, and that many of its number are just as abhorrent of what he did as you are. But they were able to put aside this hatred for the purposes of seeing the Six Principles of the UDD fulfilled:

The Six Principles of the (UDD) The United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship

1) Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.

2) Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative and democratic process.

3) Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognizing that such efforts must stem from the power of the people.

4) Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.

5) Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system.

6) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

It saddens me to see progressives divided in this way, and even sadder that the flavour of rhetoric such as yours had you pegged in my mind as a conservative. You are on the wrong side of history, mate.

Good post- such ideology as has been expressed by the reds lately is, to my mind, quite astute- it regards the nation as being controlled by an untouchable cabal of beaurocrats, military and judiciary, all at the service of a historic land owning aristocracy with varying proximity to the center of power- not unlike feudal societies of the past. This view would hold that no democracy of any stripe is possible unless power is devolved to the citizenry. THe real questions that should be asked now would refer to the accuracy of this analysis. If anyone could recommend a good academic analysis of this system, I for one, would be grateful.

Fred W Riggs. 1966. Thailand: The Modernization of a Bureaucratic Polity. Honolulu: East-West Center Press. 470 pages.

James Ockey. 2004. State, Bureaucracy and Polity in Modern Thai Politics, Journal of Contemporary Asia, Vol. 34, 2004.

Erik Martinez Kuhonta, Dan Slater, Tuong Vu. Southeast Asia in political science: theory, region, and qualitative analysis. Stanford University Press.

[mccw]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/gr...108372992525155

this facebook group against the house dissolution has more than 140,000 members, thats double what the reds had out marching yesterday.

[Netfan]

Animatic, are you saying you're actually a progressive? How the hel_l can't you be supporting the Reds then?

The truly progressive stopped apologising for the PAD after the coup, and many of them are marching out the front of Central World as I type.

Realise this movement goes beyond Thaksin, and that many of its number are just as abhorrent of what he did as you are. But they were able to put aside this hatred for the purposes of seeing the Six Principles of the UDD fulfilled:

The Six Principles of the (UDD) The United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship

1) Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.

2) Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative and democratic process.

3) Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognizing that such efforts must stem from the power of the people.

4) Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.

5) Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system.

6) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

It saddens me to see progressives divided in this way, and even sadder that the flavour of rhetoric such as yours had you pegged in my mind as a conservative. You are on the wrong side of history, mate.

Good post- such ideology as has been expressed by the reds lately is, to my mind, quite astute- it regards the nation as being controlled by an untouchable cabal of beaurocrats, military and judiciary, all at the service of a historic land owning aristocracy with varying proximity to the center of power- not unlike feudal societies of the past. This view would hold that no democracy of any stripe is possible unless power is devolved to the citizenry. THe real questions that should be asked now would refer to the accuracy of this analysis. If anyone could recommend a good academic analysis of this system, I for one, would be grateful.

Fred W Riggs. 1966. Thailand: The Modernization of a Bureaucratic Polity. Honolulu: East-West Center Press. 470 pages.

James Ockey. 2004. State, Bureaucracy and Polity in Modern Thai Politics, Journal of Contemporary Asia, Vol. 34, 2004.

Erik Martinez Kuhonta, Dan Slater, Tuong Vu. Southeast Asia in political science: theory, region, and qualitative analysis. Stanford University Press.

So what you three are saying is, you are in favor of this "New Thai State" that has become part of the Red message?

[jdinasia]

I would just like to offer a CHEERS for the sandwich shop Au Bon Pain - Siam. I just got back from a stroll amongst the enthusiastic, peaceful, nonthreatening Red Shirts down near Central World and Paragon. Amidst all of the closed and shuttered shopping malls and restaurants, Au Bon Pain remains open and operating as if it were a normal day. The fear mongering over the invasion of the Reds is completely ridiculous. Hats off to Au Bon Pain!

Non-threatening? Can we assume from this that you either cannot understand Thai or that you have not heard the threats from the red leadership?

Netfan - don't resort to cherry picking --- if all the other shops are shuttered it means that the Thais that own those shops do not consider the reds non-threatening. It does not mean that it is a normal day.

[RegularReader]

Animatic, are you saying you're actually a progressive? How the hel_l can't you be supporting the Reds then?

The truly progressive stopped apologising for the PAD after the coup, and many of them are marching out the front of Central World as I type.

Realise this movement goes beyond Thaksin, and that many of its number are just as abhorrent of what he did as you are. But they were able to put aside this hatred for the purposes of seeing the Six Principles of the UDD fulfilled:

The Six Principles of the (UDD) The United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship

1) Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.

2) Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative and democratic process.

3) Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognizing that such efforts must stem from the power of the people.

4) Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.

5) Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system.

6) Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

It saddens me to see progressives divided in this way, and even sadder that the flavour of rhetoric such as yours had you pegged in my mind as a conservative. You are on the wrong side of history, mate.

Good post- such ideology as has been expressed by the reds lately is, to my mind, quite astute- it regards the nation as being controlled by an untouchable cabal of beaurocrats, military and judiciary, all at the service of a historic land owning aristocracy with varying proximity to the center of power- not unlike feudal societies of the past. This view would hold that no democracy of any stripe is possible unless power is devolved to the citizenry. THe real questions that should be asked now would refer to the accuracy of this analysis. If anyone could recommend a good academic analysis of this system, I for one, would be grateful.

Fred W Riggs. 1966. Thailand: The Modernization of a Bureaucratic Polity. Honolulu: East-West Center Press. 470 pages.

James Ockey. 2004. State, Bureaucracy and Polity in Modern Thai Politics, Journal of Contemporary Asia, Vol. 34, 2004.

Erik Martinez Kuhonta, Dan Slater, Tuong Vu. Southeast Asia in political science: theory, region, and qualitative analysis. Stanford University Press.

So what you three are saying is, you are in favor of this "New Thai State" that has become part of the Red message?

I don't think you guys understand, that is all sizzle - it's what inside the sausgae that counts.

From what I can see the sausage consists of the same rubbish (maybe the colour is a bit different) which has brought Thailand to this position.

Do you think letting this lot take control, and with Thaksin always lurking around (maybe even as the BIG Kahuna again) the people of Thailand will be any better off ?

I don't.

If there is any truth to the rumour that the leaders : Jatuporn, Veera, Dr.Weng etc., slept in the Hyatt last night while the footsoldiers kissed the pavement - then you might understand what I am saying.

[way2muchcoffee]

Also Article 70 might be appropriate.

Section 70: Every person shall have the duty to defend the country and obey the law.

Careful there. Obeying the law would inconvenience a great many foreigners. They delight in stating that they love Thailand because of the lawlessness. Do you want some of those great bars that pimp out locals to have to shut down? Noodle shop owners to close because they don't have work permits? Foreign "developers" to actually build according to fire & safety code? What of the time share touts?

What's that you say? You meant only that this would apply for the Thais? ahhhh gotchya.I understand now. One law for Bwana and another for the workers.

Someone might also interpret your recommendation interpret to mean that it's time to remove some of the entrenched leadership and institutions along with meddlesome opinionated foreigners This might prove a tad inconvenient for many foreign guests in Thailand.

Chapter IV

Duties of Thai People

Section 70: Every person shall have the duty to defend the country and obey the law.

Interesting comments. I really don't see your point. It might appear that you are recommending a country without laws. Do you have to reach so far? The post was in response to the UDD using the constitution to defend their actions when in fact their actions are illegal under both this Article and the one they claim excuses them. Also, did you notice that this article is in the chapter for Duties of Thai People?

By the way, in case you missed it, article 63 is the one the UDD believes protect their actions. Article 62 seems relevant.

Part 11

Liberty to Assemble and Association

Section 62: A person shall enjoy the liberty to assemble peacefully and without arms.

Restriction on such liberty under paragraph one shall not be imposed except by virtue

of the law specifically enacted for the case of public assembling and for securing public

convenience in the use of public places or for maintaining peace and order during the

time when the country is in a state of war or when a state of emergency or martial law is

declared.

Section 63: A person shall enjoy the liberty to unite and form an association, a union,

league, cooperative, farmers group, private organization or any other groups.

State officials and employees, like other citizens, have the right to join groups, unless

it has no impact on the administration of the country and consistency in the provision of

public services.

Restriction on rights and liberties under paragraph one and paragraph two is

prohibited except by virtue of the law specifically enacted for protecting the common

interest of the public, maintaining public order or good morals or preventing economic

monopoly.Duties of the Thai People

Edited April 4, 2010 by way2muchcoffee