Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[Siripon]

Kwanchai should be in prison by now for his violent and outrageous orchestrated attack on the PAD in Udon. That's a video those who claim the reds are peaceful should watch.

As for Arisaman, he's unspeakable, neither of these 2 are prai, they're simply khwai.

[Old Man River]

It is being reported that Arismon has threatened Apichart's life (Apichart is the EC President).

[moresomekl]

No hate in the street??? I seem to recall another view when the Pinks scooped up the Red Shirt at their rally.

Yes, the Yellow shirt PAD see themselves as above the law, they answer to nobody. This is why when the very same people put on Pink shirts they were violent again beating up innocent single red shirts who were just watching.

Sadly the rule of law and the judiciary appears to be under the control of an "elite" who allow their "friends" to get away with anything they do, whilst coming down hard on their "enemies". Surely it is not good for the judiciary to be seen to be under the control of, an influenced by, the elite.

However, it is said that following the coup many top judges and judiciary positons were replaced by the CNS leaders and coup government, and so this is only to be expected until Democracy returns and the coup appointed people are replaced by a democratically elected government.

New elections are needed. Whilst the present coalition can claim to be "legal" and "legitmate" everybody know they only came to power after the judiciary dissolved the PPP and then "elite" influence behind the scenes made up this new "coalition". The government whilst claiming to be "legitimate" cannot claim to be elected by the people, as the people did not vote for these. The people voted PTP.

Therefore, this is the crux of the issue, the elite have got control by "legitimate" methods under the law, the same way Thaksin did many things "within the law".

However, both were immoral and until this immoral government coaliation ends and the power is returned to the people to vote, then the problems remain.

Just dissolve the house Abhisit, be a man for once and show you have the "all" the Thai peoples concerns on your mind, not just the ruling elite.

Yes but what would happen if they called for elections now .

Result A: The dems and their coalition partners would be reelected (or elected , no partisan view here) . Then what for spend so much money on election ? They here already

Result B : a) The PTP would find itself in power in which case

Stock market would likely crash , investors are banking on Abhisit staying in power , and they would withdraw if not . Chavalit and his friends is hardly a star in economic matters , my 5 years old daughter does better . And the class war thing has made investors rather nervous

c) Thaksin would be asked to return to " Save" the thai economy and granted immunity as a special adviser

d) THe rest is a replay of a movie that has ben played before

But then perhaps its what you want after all

Open your eyes.

There is Result C,D,E,F,G,H,J and so on.

You are limiting yourself to what the Yellow want you to think. What their newspapers put into your mind.

There is no A or B as there are many possible results and differences.

This is not about Thaksin now, its about the Elite and how they have, do and will try to continue to control everything in Thailand.

Thaksin is a side issue, his supporters are just ONE PART of the Reds.

Its more than that now, open your eyes.

Come to Bangkok, speak to the people.

I went to BKK this week end , but agreed i did not speak to ppl . I dont have too , my gf is 100% pro Thaksin

a very nice girl otherwise .

Give me one practical demand that the red leaders have presented to Abhisit besides asking for immediate house

dissolution . Have they asked for better education , micro credits , better roads , more busses , whatever ?

In which case i would be quite supportive .

No ... its immediate house dissolution or nothing . You know its like a pissing contest . I cant buy that .

[Wolfie]

Are you saying that because the rural poor do not pay taxes "the same as the 'Bangkok elite' (aka Office workers, Shop workers etc)" do" that they should not be entitled to the benefits a civilized country offers to all of its citizens? A simple yes or no answe will do.

Short Answer - No that is not what i am saying - read it again

Long Answer: No, all citizens of the country should benefit - health care and education should be available to all, but damaging the local economy (peoples ability to work and earn money, costing businesses money in lost revenue/staff wages, increasing the cost to the country as they have to deal with all of added security during the protests etc) in the name of one of the biggest crooks this country has seen who also doesn't pay his taxes and supporting a political party who is already guilty of corruption whilst avoiding paying the taxes you should be paying in the first place then protesting in a 'class war' against the people who are paying into the tax coffers and calling for more 'welfare' for the rural poor is kinda 'arse-about-face' no?

Corruption exists in Thailand, at all levels, and its a problem Thailand has to deal with... this isn't going to happen over night, and it has to come from the Top down... Do you think Thaksin is the right man to do that? Honestly?

[toybits]

Where were you the the yellow shirts disrupted International Air Travel? Were you as vociferous then as you are now?

Short Answer - No that is not what i am saying - read it again

Long Answer: No, all citizens of the country should benefit - health care and education should be available to all, but damaging the local economy (peoples ability to work and earn money, costing businesses money in lost revenue/staff wages, increasing the cost to the country as they have to deal with all of added security during the protests etc) in the name of one of the biggest crooks this country has seen who also doesn't pay his taxes and supporting a political party who is already guilty of corruption whilst avoiding paying the taxes you should be paying in the first place then protesting in a 'class war' against the people who are paying into the tax coffers and calling for more 'welfare' for the rural poor is kinda 'arse-about-face' no?

Corruption exists in Thailand, at all levels, and its a problem Thailand has to deal with... this isn't going to happen over night, and it has to come from the Top down... Do you think Thaksin is the right man to do that? Honestly?

[hammered]

Arisaman seems to have lost it totally.

[animatic]

If they storm the EC this whole game will change and be nasty.

Imagine if this was happening in New York or London? It would be game over quickly.

Very true. In fact you wouldnt even be allowed to assemble without a police agreed assembly place or marching route.

Invasion of the EC would essentially mean all bets are off.

A clearly illegal act done as a body, this would loosen and restraint about cleaning out the commercial district too.

Once they do this they are criminal and makes no difference what PAD did back when this is now and not then.

It's been said that allowing PAD to do it back then would open Pandora's Box to this going on over and over again,

Round 2 is right now... so it's either :

Draw a line in the sand and say this ends now,

or

Let it be a recurrent action to change governance through the street.

The latter is a route straight to hel_l, the former may not be pretty,

but it resets a precedent that was wrongly allowed to be dropped.

I can hope this is the least injurious to all, but it seems this must be done,

or it's an endless cycle.

Edited April 5, 2010 by animatic

[Wolfie]

Where were you the the yellow shirts disrupted International Air Travel? Were you as vociferous then as you are now?

Yep i was actually I was against them taking over Govt House and i was against them taking over the Airports. I am not a Yellow, neither am i a Red.

I know some people seem to think if you are anti-red then you must be a yellow supporter.

[hammered]

They are now announcing the address of the guy Arisaman threatened on their stage. This isnt very democratically minded.

[pimay11]

It looks like the head of the EC is now having his life threatened by Arisaman. This is going way too far

Unbelievable: "TAN Network: Red-shirt leader 'Rambo E-sarn' gives out EC chairman Apichart S. home address and phone number on red-shirt stage". This guy is a real nut case.

[shawndoc]

This is not about Thaksin now, its about the Elite and how they have, do and will try to continue to control everything in Thailand.

Thaksin is a side issue, his supporters are just ONE PART of the Reds.

Yes, the one part of the red that are providing the money and are acting as the official leaders/negotiators of the red shirt movement.

While just "one part" of the red movement, it is the part that is in-charge.

[Kiccoro]

TAN Network: Red-shirt leader 'Rambo E-sarn' gives out EC chairman Apichart S. home address and phone number on red-shirt stage.

This is a most horrid thing to do. Amitahba.

[moresomekl]

They are now announcing the address of the guy Arisaman threatened on their stage. This isnt very democratically minded.

There was a thread here few weeks back saying that there is an arrest warrant for Arisman

How come this guy is not in the cooler ?

[Insight]

They've got the excuse they need to shut it down now.

If they don't it's going to look pretty pathetic.

[hammered]

Where were you the the yellow shirts disrupted International Air Travel? Were you as vociferous then as you are now?

Yep i was actually I was against them taking over Govt House and i was against them taking over the Airports. I am not a Yellow, neither am i a Red.

I know some people seem to think if you are anti-red then you must be a yellow supporter.

Only a certain strand of red really thinks that way. I have discussed this with a red funder and he says it is all about promoting the group and not about reality. They keep it as simple as possible. Either/or stuff.

[negreanu]

Abhisit has played the game well upto now. He has the majority backing HOWEVER he needs more decisive action now as I feel leaving it any longer his popularity will tumble.

His popularity will continue to grow the current rate if physical means are used now to remove them from all but their original protest area.

His method and approach upto today have been correct. However from this morning he is starting to show weakness.

Edited April 5, 2010 by negreanu

[ThailandLovr]

If this isn't inciting to riot, I don't know what is. Geezuz! Screaming at the top of his lungs to the crowd!

Edited April 5, 2010 by ThailandLovr

[hammered]

Maybe the reds now want martyrs. They want arrests. At least two people have made statements that it would seem leave little choice but arrest

Edited to add: they also seem to be going into the EC building

Edited April 5, 2010 by hammered

[way2muchcoffee]

Reds pushing way into EC Building right now according to Tulsathit tweets.

A few minutes later....

Reds at EC halted by leaders - Wait 15 more minutes

Edited April 5, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[steveromagnino]

The BTS is open, many reds are going by BTS. The BTS joins by walkway to the shopping places.

Whats the problem ? Too elite to get the BTS ? Too elite to walk ? Just because you cannot get your Merc to stop at the door does not mean you have to close the place.

Are you in Bangkok ? Or just another "outsider" who feels the need to post on here for arguments sake ?

The Reds have very very strong support, as can be seen on the streets with your eyes open (not reading some internet site).

The BTS walkway you describe it was paid for 100% by the 'elite shopping mall owners', and it was gifted to the BMA. AFAIK it is shut, because those elite shopping mall owners have to pay for its management. In addition, on a personal guess, I would say the police asked them to close it yesterday in case anti red shirts (or someone else) decided to go up there and start hurling things down. The police have to try to keep a lid on keeping rivals apart, and it would not take much provocation to cause some serious rioting if someone decided to go up there and hurling rotten food/faeces/blood etc at what is currently a peaceful mob down below. I don't know what their decision has been today regarding the section between Hyatt/Gaysorn and Central World; beyond that is a non issue as the mob is realtively small and at least as of this morning didn't run past the temple down to Paragon.

If it is open, I am sure the red shirts can thank the elite shopping mall owners for kindly building it. Perhaps in as polite a way as they ask to use the bathrooms and facilities of the shopping centers, even though they plan to buy nothing. I presume personal property and property rights aren't important, when it comes to toilets.

Anyhow, I just told you the mindset of the shopping mall owners. It is a statement of opinion; I can say with some certainty a bunch of people who shop at places like Paragon, Centralworld and Gaysorn don't ride the BTS. They don't live near one of the stations; they have a driver; they have young children; they are tourists, they have no desire to stand up, they choose not to etc. They don't want to ride the BTS, and if they cannot get to their destination easily they will cancel the trip. Just as some people ride the bus, others do not. It is extremely arrogant for anyone to dare dictate how others should lead their lives.

The result of blocking roads and so on in the midle of the city creates a perception that it is not safe. The perception of some people of the red shirts is based on the lawlessness widely seen a year ago. The large mobs driving around the city in big groups with their faces covered we see nowadays. Throwing blood around. Threatening to burn down the city with petrol. Threats of throwing excrement. So the perception of some shoppers, is that they don't wish to shop in an area with people on the side of the street in large numbers peeing and pooing on the road side and with a past record of going 'postal'. It is not your job or mine to predict what a mall owner should do, but I know that each mall operator would have asked their insurance company should they stay open and what would happen if the mob starts looting. My guess is this might fall under the scope of force majeure. So if you are a mall operator, you can open, but there will be no customers and the risk of destruction which you are not going to be insured for as well as staff safety issues, or you can shut the doors. And for each tenant (each shop) the same decision applies.

Again, I can't help but feel it would be supreme arrogance of anyone who does not personally have their money invested in retail to say 'they should open, there is no risk.'

I already told you, the owners of one of these centers is a former TRT family. You think they want to shut if there are sales to be had? They surely must know the mob cannot be guaranteed to be controlled 100% - no one can guarantee that. I would guess a personal call might have been placed to THaksin already to discuss this exact issue - with the porsche accident yesterday a high end mall operator simply cannot guarantee the safety of their staff, their customers, and their building so they need to be mature, and risk averse.

As for my location and position to comment, what exactly that I am saying would change if you knew I was not in Bangkok or Thailand?

My summation of the entire last 2 weeks is that the reds have tried the peaceful way, but their numbers have not ever exceeded the first sunday morning again where they had slightly over 100,000 people. They seem unable to mobilise more than this and as of this morning were down back to around 10-20,000, with the evening peaking likely around 60-100,000 and this is not anythign like the 20 million Dr Weng promised last week.

Without a change in strategy, they cannot continue and will gradually fade. The cost per day is huge.

Peaceful is winning them sympathy; many of their issues now people are picking up on the message and saying that yes, rural poor have legitimate grievances. However, since the purpose of the rally was never to win sympathy but to try to push for an early election to change the constitution and get Thaksin amnesty and a return, the numbers of the streets do not increase significantly and the only real support in BKK they have is mostly from upcountry folk. Therefore, to try to continue winning people over through peace is no longer necessary; a veneer of peaceful protest will be good for the foreign media, but now they can try being more heavy handed, hoping the govt will falter. They will also continue to claim that each and every example of violence on their side was the result of fake red shirts, and that all who oppose them are yellow shirt wearing violent thugs who assaulted the police 2 years ago.

As a strategy, it seems difficult to make it work, but they know they won't get anywhere doing what they are doing; especially since they already lost the chance to negotiate when they chose to walk away from continuing talks, where they probably could have got a 6 month election time frame.

They have Arisaman and Chavalit and other people spouting different opinions; they don't seem to know which way to go; even in negotiation a more reasonable 2 months was proposed then retracted. They were pro and anti the blood protest. They were pro guiness book of records protest then cancelling at the last minute.

As with Ramos at Spurs...the chant 'you don't know what you are doing' seems strangely fitting.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[Insight]

Reds are also on the way to NBT - I think it's unlikely they're going there to give another letter.

[10027586]

Red-shirts at the EC. For the safety of the occupants, the police/army need to mobilise NOW and get these bastards out.

[pimay11]

Reds are also on the way to NBT - I think it's unlikely they're going there to give another letter.

Total madness. I have supported the current government but if they do not stop this now they do not deserve to rule. IMO.

Nation: Red leaders at EC are all hardcore reds _ Arisman, Kwanchai, Suporn (E-saan Rambo).

A portion of protesters, 100 or more, have been inside the EC building.

TV reports show reds roaming the ground floor of the EC building. Not threatening, but situation tense and confusing.

Nation Channel reporter inside the building is reporting live with 3G video.

[jdinasia]

The BTS is open, many reds are going by BTS. The BTS joins by walkway to the shopping places.

Whats the problem ? Too elite to get the BTS ? Too elite to walk ? Just because you cannot get your Merc to stop at the door does not mean you have to close the place.

The donations scandal of the Democrats is well known, but there appears to be influence holding up the vedict, rather than simply find them guilty as charged or not the "agencies" are passing it around each taking a month or two to view the evidence before passing to the next, and the next....... in effect to delay any verdict - perhaps for 9 months or 1 year and 9 months. The evidence is clear, sadly the verdict is being relentlessly delayed.

Are you in Bangkok ? Or just another "outsider" who feels the need to post on here for arguments sake ?

The Reds have very very strong support, as can be seen on the streets with your eyes open (not reading some internet site).

Ummm apparently you are unaware that the case against the Dems is anything BUT clear and the evidence is not clear at all. It is an accusation that appears to be unsubstantiated.

Your concept that the walkways are clear isn't accurate and your refusal to acknowledge the threats stated by the Red shirt leaders from the stage in the area would restrain any reasonable person from entering the area.

The reds do not have very very strong support on the street but they do have a lot of cannon fodder on the street. The red leadership seems quite willing to sacrifice that cannon-fodder for Thaksin. (Who is hiding overseas.) Let's hope the paid lackey's of Thaksin wise up before anything worse happens but with today's actions by the reds it seems that is unlikely.

[ThailandLovr]

You gotta hand it to the Red leaders for their exercise of brinkmanship. Amazing. Exert maximum pressure then back off.

[geriatrickid]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

2. How many rural reds pay any taxes (even the leaders avoid paying their taxes - right?) and the few who do actually pay taxes are quite probably so low on the tax-thresholds that they only contribute a few thousand baht a month to the tax coffers.

Pure inflamatory conjecture. You cannot back this statement up. However, I can point you to the VAT exemptions for various classes of businesses controlled by the super wealthy. Look at the list of exempted businesses and industries. BTW, are you saying that everyone in a rural area is red? Wouldn't your logic hold for the rural yellows, and urban dwellers in the same economic circumstances? Why is it exclusive to being red only?

3. They demand social welfare, cheap hospitals, free schooling, public roads etc etc but don't pay taxes the same as the 'Bangkok elite' (aka Office workers, Shop workers etc)

Demand? I don't think their demands are any more vocal than those of any other group in Thailand. I would offer that they have probably been more docile. Look at what you are saying. You are stating that because one group is disadvantaged and poor they have less of a right to social services. That's reprehensible.

Where does your food come from? Do you think Naam makes it on board his starship and sends it by transporter? It is grown and harvested by the very people you mock. it is in the national interest to ensure that the farmers and working poor are cared for since they do the important jobs that sustain the nation. I'm sure accountants are nice people, but they create nothing. The same for lawyers. Never ever disregard the workers as they are the people that let people like me earn a nice paycheque.

4. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for these types of things? Oh that's right, the very people the reds are holding to ransom right now! White collar workers who are paying tax each month from their salaries.

Nice touch of drama there. Unfortunately with a personal income tax participation of about 20%, not too many of the poor dears as you clam are shouldering an unfair burden. Rather it is the poor that carry the burden because of the use of indirect and consumption taxes.

5. I wont refute the Military budget claim although maybe you would prefer to see the military not funded (nice avatar by the way, which military force is that?)

This is a totally different subject, but the Thai military budget is bloated. Why are golf courses and R&R spas funded? Why are staff officers allocated all sorts of perks that the colonial armies never even gave themselves? what was up with the bomb detection fiasco with absolutely no disciplinary action taken. The same for the airship stupidity.

The kit is British in origin, although it is shared by about 4 other national units if I am not mistaken. The dog slobber is unique though.

6. The Skimming isn't any better or worse than it was during the Thaksin regime (altho its my personal opinion it was probably a lot worse during his time but that's just my opinion) or maybe you are of the viewpoint that all of the TTT/PPP/PTP (whatever they are called this week) politicians were all squeaky clean, never corrupt, and all had such high moral and ethical standards.

Why are you going off on a tangent now? Isn't this the type of argument that people like you are always railing against? Uusualy the argument goes along the lines that just because other regimes were corrupt was no excuse for the improprieties under Thaksin. Now you are saying, hey Thaksin was presumed to be corrupt, so it's acceptable if my team is too.

7.Thailand does not have the funds to pay for the social programs because the money is gobbled up by corrupt politicians and greedy non-tax payers who want social programs but aint prepared to pay for them

Agreed. Unfortunately, the people that gain from this are the Bangkok elites and the military. Big ticket funding goes for projects that benefit the elites, because it is the elite that controls the process. When the Thai military decides on new purchases, who reviews it? In parliamentary democracies there are mechanisms to be followed. In Thailand the military decides, period.

You have conveniently neglected to address the nature of land ownership in this country and that it is held by a small goup. Nor have you addressed the manner in which capital is made available to the poor. The system is deigned to keep people in debt and poor. Who controls the rice distribution system? It's not a redshirt, or a poor farmer or an office worker in Bangkok. It is a small group of super rich.

7. You know Abhisit has a strong stance against corruption... he appears to be one of the first politicians who is publically against it... maybe that is why he is so disliked amongst the red politicians, hes closing down their cash-cow... interesting viewpoint, no?

Perhaps he should start with his own house first. Since he has been in power, has he introduced any regulations requiring declarations of conflict of interests? what has he done specifically to stamp out corruption in the country aside from the politically motivated business with the Reds? Please tell me. One example where charges have been brought. Please, just one, ok?

I do not doubt that Abhisit is a decent man and with his family wealth he can afford to be honest. BTW, who is his father and how did his father obtain all that money? Here's a hint; Military march.....

Well, Wolfie, now that I have taken the time to answer your unfounded comments, I hope you will take the time to reconsider your biased views and consider letting go of your fear. Maybe an introductory course on public policy would help.

[Indo-Siam]

Total madness. I have supported the current government but if they do not stop this now they do not deserve to rule. IMO.

I share this sentiment. It hurts me to say this, but I think it is now time for Abhisit to step down. He has abdicated his responsibility to maintain sovereign control over the capital city of his country. He needs to get out of the way, and let someone take charge who has the fortitude and resoluteness to maintain civilized control of the streets.

The Red Shirt thugs need to be sent home - either "with their shields, or on their shields" - as they may choose. Otherwise, "law of the jungle" is about to descend upon Bangkok - not necessarily just on the part of the Red Shirt thugs - but also exercised by whatever other opportunistic criminal elements smell weakness.

[geriatrickid]

The BTS is open, many reds are going by BTS. The BTS joins by walkway to the shopping places.

Whats the problem ? Too elite to get the BTS ? Too elite to walk ? Just because you cannot get your Merc to stop at the door does not mean you have to close the place.

The donations scandal of the Democrats is well known, but there appears to be influence holding up the vedict, rather than simply find them guilty as charged or not the "agencies" are passing it around each taking a month or two to view the evidence before passing to the next, and the next....... in effect to delay any verdict - perhaps for 9 months or 1 year and 9 months. The evidence is clear, sadly the verdict is being relentlessly delayed.

Are you in Bangkok ? Or just another "outsider" who feels the need to post on here for arguments sake ?

The Reds have very very strong support, as can be seen on the streets with your eyes open (not reading some internet site).

Ummm apparently you are unaware that the case against the Dems is anything BUT clear and the evidence is not clear at all. It is an accusation that appears to be unsubstantiated.

Your concept that the walkways are clear isn't accurate and your refusal to acknowledge the threats stated by the Red shirt leaders from the stage in the area would restrain any reasonable person from entering the area.

The reds do not have very very strong support on the street but they do have a lot of cannon fodder on the street. The red leadership seems quite willing to sacrifice that cannon-fodder for Thaksin. (Who is hiding overseas.) Let's hope the paid lackey's of Thaksin wise up before anything worse happens but with today's actions by the reds it seems that is unlikely.

Are you in Bangkok now? Are you there? If you are not, then how do you know if the walkways are blocked?

Nice spin on the charges against the Dems. You claim the evidence is not clear at all. Well now that you have reviewed that evidence and have a good knowledge of the case, would you care to provide some more legal insight?

How can you comment on what the Reds have or do not have in Bangkok? You are not there.

I don't think you would have the courage to spout off any of the statements to a red. Instead, you fire off the vitriole behind the safety of your PC. I'm surprised that an experienced "military" veteran such as yourself hasn't volunteered your brilliance to assist the government in dealing with this event. Together you can restore order.

[BKKer2010]

THE NATION: Reds might b confused- first the leders said to storm the bldg & next they said those who were inside'd b considered 'fake reds".

Yes, if you do not do as we say then you are not real reds, lol

Democracy at work.

And people say don't call the red followers unintelligent for following these elite radicals.

[BKKer2010]

THE NATION: Reds might b confused- first the leders said to storm the bldg & next they said those who were inside'd b considered 'fake reds".

Yes, if you do not do as we say then you are not real reds, lol

Democracy at work.

And people say don't call the red followers unintelligent for following these elite radicals.

Arisman, back on stage, now threatens to visit EC head Apichart's home, "and we won't take reponsibility for what happens there."

Somebody please put an end to this lunacy.