The Country's Rural Poor Want A Voice, With Or Without Mr. Thaksin. Opinion

[lannarebirth]

The rural poor HAVE a voice, a vote like everyone in Bangkok... so what do they do? They sell it off to the highest bidder.

Isn't that the core of US style democracy, one dollar one vote? Look most people vote for the party that is going to give them the most. Poor people will take a few hundred baat in the pocket and wealthy people will take much, much more, but cleverly hidden in the form of tax breaks and other rather nefarious incentives. And then the few of us who would like to see policies that benefit the larger society are branded as "socialists" as if that was a bad thing.

Look no surprise that the very conservative WSJ would be pro-Thaksin, he is their kind of man, totally corrupt yet wealthy enough to garner Wall Street's respect as Wall Street cares not how that wealth is earned, a very Thai sentiment indeed. The Red Shirt's vote is there for the asking. But the Yellow shirts have decided they don't want to bother to throw a few bones to the rural poor, if only because the Yellow Shirts are overwhelmingly Sino-Thai and their more newly assimilated Bangkok brethren who see the more ethnic Isaan and Khon Muang folks as lesser human beings not deserving of the spoils of State. Such lesser human beings are never invited to the table to kin muang.

I respect your opinion Jopha so I'd like to ask. Why do you think Abhisit's welfare state, expanded tax base for social and agrarian and educational programs, more student loans, more old age stipends, etc. programs, can't get any traction with these people. Is it too little too late? Is the message being blocked? Does it take to long to see results they can appreciate? Any idea?

[SurinLA]

The Titel said:

"The Country's Rural Poor Want A Voice, With Or Without Mr. Thaksin. Opinion, WSJ Opinion article"

Most representatives from the N. and the NE. are the PTP party members. Are those not their current voices in the parliament?

Since I grew up in the rice farmer family far far away from the city in Surin, I believe that majority of RED supporters (Taksin loyalists) are misinformed(being lied to) about the current government from the RED TV and the RED radio. This protest is more of TAKSIN/PTP loyalties who want back powers. They don't want to be opposition party because they do not get many projects as when they were a ruling party. I don't need to explain anything more because I live there so I see it myself.

Assume that if there was an election. Phue Thai won the elelction. Who will be those rural voices if not the same people who are there now? Do they think that there will be Mr. Sorn from A. village as an Argriculture Dept MP or Mr. To from NongKai as Defense ministry MP or MRs. Yoy from clothing factory as Import Export Expert Dept?

[Siam Simon]

The Titel said:

"The Country's Rural Poor Want A Voice, With Or Without Mr. Thaksin. Opinion, WSJ Opinion article"

Most representatives from the N. and the NE. are the PTP party members. Are those not their current voices in the parliament?

Since I grew up in the rice farmer family far far away from the city in Surin, I believe that majority of RED supporters (Taksin loyalists) are misinformed(being lied to) about the current government from the RED TV and the RED radio. This protest is more of TAKSIN/PTP loyalties who want back powers. They don't want to be opposition party because they do not get many projects as when they were a ruling party. I don't need to explain anything more because I live there so I see it myself.

Assume that if there was an election. Phue Thai won the elelction. Who will be those rural voices if not the same people who are there now? Do they think that there will be Mr. Sorn from A. village as an Argriculture Dept MP or Mr. To from NongKai as Defense ministry MP or MRs. Yoy from clothing factory as Import Export Expert Dept?

No, but anything would be better than Mr P..m from ? or Mr A from Central Army Command.

[yoshiwara]

now the wsj is pro rice farmers who get paid to protest.

amerika is one fkked up country!

how do u come to the conclusion most people who post here are right wing americans. dam_n most have your point of view!

there is no democracy in USA as well, just have a look at the anti-semitism law. jews are the elites rulling in usa just like the ones of BKK

So, looks like Thaksin has the expat fascist vote tied up.

Well done.

Red shirts/brown shirts.

Same same.

[kissdani]

The winner with the plurality is offered the opportunity to build a coalition to form a majority.

So a minority government could be in power?

Whilst in theory any party can attempt to form a Government through a coalition, providing that it can obtain more than half of the current members of parliament, one of the main issues that comes into play when forming a Government is section 177 of the Constitution.

This is a ruling which basically disallows Cabinet Members who are members of Parliament from voting in either a censure motion or the annual budget.

With 36 Cabinet Ministers, this means that a Government needs in theory at least 277* seats (241 + 36) as many motions require a vote of not less than half the number of Members of Parliament (480).

After the last General election, the PPP had a total of 233 Members of Parliament, which would have meant that a Democrat led Government at that time would only be able to gain a maximum of 247 Members.

For anyone interested, the last three Prime Minister were voted in by the following:

Samak = 310 votes

Somchai = 298 votes

Abhisit = 235 votes **

* The total numer of Cabinet Ministers is 36, however only 22 are Members of Parliament.

** The total number of MP's at the time was only 437 as 43 had recently been banned by the Constitutional Court.

I assume Abhisit would have more than 240 votes after the by-elections then, otherwise the PTP could get one of their people in as PM.

246 MP's vote for confidence in the march 2009 censure motion.

[kissdani]

"In the long run however Thailand will remain politically unsettled until its elites and military give the Thai people full democracy. That means Mr. Abhisit must embrace the idea that his party could lose in a popular vote. While that might not be an appealing prospect for Mr. Abhisit, that's how democracy works.

Even if Mr. Thaksin never returns to Thailand, he has set off a democracy movement that isn't going away. The sooner Bangkok realizes that, the better. "

-----

Thanks for posting. Let's hope the WSJ site isn't soon on Abhisit's censorship list!

What censorship list?

Perhaps you'd like to share your source for this comment.

Personally I believe PM Abhisit has been the most open and transparent PM Thailand has probably ever seen. He has said many times (I believe totally genuinly) that he wants total freedom of speech and total freedom of expression as a pillar of a Thai democracy. About 6 weeks back he held an open session with Thai journalists, he prompted them / he encouraged them to ask him anything, he listened carefully and responded in detail to very question. Certainly different from any other PM except Khun Anand P.

:D

[chadintheusa]

Of course the poor would like to have a voice. However they will never get one, that is the nature of democracy. Once a party gets elected they use their position to make themselves rich by accepting money from businesses and special interest groups. Politicians become very good at lying to the electorate when necessary but they all act the same way once they get in. Thai people don't realize that in western society there are large portions of the society that are also poor. The poor are necessary so that they can serve the rich. If they reds succeed, the few members that get government positions will get rich, the rest will be right back where they started.

[trashy]

The rural poor HAVE a voice, a vote like everyone in Bangkok... so what do they do? They sell it off to the highest bidder.

They say they want democracy, but you cannot have a real democracy without education; even then, money talks the loudest (cf. the USA, where enormous amounts of money are needed even to select the candidate! all right, I admit the vote is fair after that).

Agreed, you can never have a true democracy where votes are bought.

[chadintheusa]

Votes are bought everyday. Usually it's for tax cuts, or health care, or government benefits. Not usually for cash, and not usually for so little. The voters of Thailand need to figure out that their votes are worth more than what they are currently being sold for. Demand hospitals, schools, employment things that will last a little bit longer.

Edited April 10, 2010 by chadintheusa

[LevelHead]

I put this post on the "Are the Reds battling for Thaksins money or Democracy" thread, however it is very relevant here too, as the people are battling for Democracy and their rights, against a Yellow Elite who wish to oppress them, and having failed to do it under "fake Democracy" since 2006, will now push to control the poor by taking control again under their ultimate plan of "New Politics".

"An interesting question and possibly part of the psychological warfare being put out by the Yellow, warfare that has lasted over 5 years now.

Lets flip the question a little, "What are the Yellow Shirts/PAD/NPP/Democrats/Elite fighting for, justice or preservation of power".

I think if we answer that question we will answer the red question and prove that beyond a doubt that the Reds are for Democracy.

Lets rewind to the coup. Prior to the coup the Democrats refused to take part in the election as they knew they would lose and so refused to play.

The CNS were in power after the coup and members of the CNS are on record as saying they will deal with Thaksin by "years of mass psychology" ahead "similar to how we battled the Commies" . In other words there will be a concerted effort to disgrace him, to drag him through the dirt. to find him guilty and to turn him into a villain.

This is very normal, its very common for Junta's and Coup leaders around the world to "make up" all sorts of evidence and find the previous regime in power guilty in Kangaroo courts.

So what we have here is the first time the Thai people (majority) have not been suckered into the media manipulated psychological warfare of the state.

The Thai people have said "Ok, you say he is a villain and bad, but even if he is he is better than you Yellow PAD Elite, you are far worse than him".

That really slaps them in the face. They held a coup, they put into place control of the checks and balances system, they controlled the media, some say they control the courts and yet, to this day, the people say they prefer the Thaksin over the Elite, as even if he was bad, he is not as bad as all the Yellow and Elites and PAD and NPP and Democrats.

Part of the psychological warfare ongoing is to make this all about Thaksin and not let the real reason that the rural people want Democracy come to the forefront.

New Politics - by taking away any voting power from the people and giving control to the Elite by majority, and allowing the people to vote a non control minority is their only way forward now, they know they have lost the battle of control over the people, the people will no longer sucker up to the Elite, the people prefer politicians now, people who might take 10 and give back 5, as opposed to the Elite who take 100 and give back 1.

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "New Politics".

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "its all Thaksin"

They have to keep pushing their psychological warfare, they have to keep saying its all about Thaksin.

They do not want the world to see that the Thai people have finally said "Elite / Yellow you are so evil and so corrupt and so bad that even the villain you made, the made up villain you threw out of power, we prefer him over you".

Democracy gives the people the power to choose who rules them.

This is not about Thaksin as such, this is about the Elite attempting to struggle to remain in power. They now know that they have lost fake Democracy as a way to control. They will now, in my opinion, attempt to push "New Politics" as its the only way they can remain "in control". "

Edited April 10, 2010 by LevelHead

[siampolee]

Possibly it would be a big step forward if the bloody ridiculous self protective rule regarding the necessity of Bachelors degree (in any subject) was removed as a pre-requisite for being able to stand for election and to be able to enter parliament in the event of being elected,

A wonderful example of a piece of legislation designed to protect the more well to do in exercising their power over the less well to do.

( seems as it took Arisman11 years to complete his Bachelors degree, indeed a wonderful comment on his intellectual abilities and possibly the standards of the university he presumably attended, or did it take that long to save up the pass your degree payment I wonder)

I haven't noticed that particular subject being raised by the leaders of the red Shirt Brigade.

Perhaps the Red Shirt Brigade leaders are a trifle concerned that they may find themselves vulnerable if the lower orderer actually had a say in what happens and how and who those decisions may affect for better or worse ?

Edited April 10, 2010 by siampolee

[LomSak27]

e WSJ is a very RIGHT WING American newspaper. It is fitting the pattern of being pro-red, pro-Thaksin that most RIGHT WING Americans tend to follow here, while IGNORING the dark, negative aspects of the Thaksin movement (as well as his clear record of actually being anti-democratic). Do not take that piece as the American view, it is a right wing opinion piece. They heard the PR key words democracy and they eat it up, completely uncritically. If/when the red mobs take over and install an anti-democratic Hugo Chavez/Fidel Castro/Peron strong man type leader here, you can sure they will change their tune, but by then it will be too late.

Read my post(s) before you go postal.

I have observed for a long time now that most right wing Americans who post here are pro-Thaksin/reds and most left wing Americans who post here are anti-Thaksin/reds. We both share the desire for more freedom, democracy, and equality for Thailand's poor, but feel the hope of achieving that may come from different sides. The truth is probably NEITHER side will bring that, but Americans tend to be optimistic/hopeful people.

Fascinating observations Jingthing as 100 per cent of US rightwingers I know in Thailand support Abhisit and the Dems, maybe because they buy hook line and sinker the tripe the NATION dishes up. Of course if stating the opposite is your intention, to deflect the fact that the WSJ, a paper that viscerally dislikes the Reds and all they stand for, actually comes out and states some of the Reds legitimate grievances - job well done Mr Disinformation

[isanbirder]

Possibly it would be a big step forward if the bloody ridiculous self protective rule regarding the necessity of Bachelors degree (in any subject) was removed as a pre-requisite for being able to stand for election and to be able to enter parliament in the event of being elected,

A wonderful example of a piece of legislation designed to protect the more well to do in exercising their power over the less well to do.

( seems as it took Arisman11 years to complete his Bachelors degree, indeed a wonderful comment on his intellectual abilities and possibly the standards of the university he presumably attended, or did it take that long to save up the pass your degree payment I wonder)

I haven't noticed that particular subject being raised by the leaders of the red Shirt Brigade.

Perhaps the Red Shirt Brigade leaders are a trifle concerned that they may find themselves vulnerable if the lower orderer actually had a say in what happens and how and who those decisions may affect for better or worse ?

There are a few good universities in Thailand, but a Bachelor's degree at most of them is worth no more than a high-school diploma in most Western countries. And if it took Arisman 11 years to complete, Heaven help the country if he and his like gain power!

[MILT]

i speek for the majority of americans.

we dont kare, can you point me to the places where the bargirls hang out.

Second that! I laugh almost daily when I think of how colored shirts have polarized family, friends , an entire nation. I wonder why the US has never considered shirt colors to represent their political point of view, oh wait I forgot we had the rainbow TieDyes but that was about non-violence.

[MILT]

The rural poor HAVE a voice, a vote like everyone in Bangkok... so what do they do? They sell it off to the highest bidder.

They say they want democracy, but you cannot have a real democracy without education; even then, money talks the loudest (cf. the USA, where enormous amounts of money are needed even to select the candidate! all right, I admit the vote is fair after that).

Where did you read that nonsense ?

Oh, would it be in the Yellow biased papers ?

Have you ever been around when the vote buying happens. For 3 or 4 nights you will get woken up, once by this party, next by that party, then another party etc..

The people take the money from all of them, all the different parties, but then vote for the ONE THEY WANT TO.

That is democracy, and the only effect vote buying has is if you do not offer money they will not vote for you, but they will happily take 500 baht from PTP and 500 baht from the Democrats, and then decide on their own which one to vote for.

This is "Thai" vote buying.

If you do not know that and cannot understand or appreciate how the system works then please, do some research and live among the people for a few years.

Its on the Yellow biased papers that try to say, cleverly, accusations against one side, but ignore the other side do it too.

Say What?

[MILT]

Shame the author of the WSJ article hasn't got the faintest understanding of Thailand and all the undercurrents. True democracy is a long way into future. As someone else noted, education in the rural areas needs to be radically improved so that those hard working people really understand what democracy can do for them, and how to avoid corruption.

Not to mention that education would have prevented most folks there in the NE from going into debt, from a certain "T" Populist policy. Money talks & Bull Sh*t walks or in this case fly's the friendly sky's

[JonUSA]

I put this post on the "Are the Reds battling for Thaksins money or Democracy" thread, however it is very relevant here too, as the people are battling for Democracy and their rights, against a Yellow Elite who wish to oppress them, and having failed to do it under "fake Democracy" since 2006, will now push to control the poor by taking control again under their ultimate plan of "New Politics".

"An interesting question and possibly part of the psychological warfare being put out by the Yellow, warfare that has lasted over 5 years now.

Lets flip the question a little, "What are the Yellow Shirts/PAD/NPP/Democrats/Elite fighting for, justice or preservation of power".

I think if we answer that question we will answer the red question and prove that beyond a doubt that the Reds are for Democracy.

Lets rewind to the coup. Prior to the coup the Democrats refused to take part in the election as they knew they would lose and so refused to play.

The CNS were in power after the coup and members of the CNS are on record as saying they will deal with Thaksin by "years of mass psychology" ahead "similar to how we battled the Commies" . In other words there will be a concerted effort to disgrace him, to drag him through the dirt. to find him guilty and to turn him into a villain.

This is very normal, its very common for Junta's and Coup leaders around the world to "make up" all sorts of evidence and find the previous regime in power guilty in Kangaroo courts.

So what we have here is the first time the Thai people (majority) have not been suckered into the media manipulated psychological warfare of the state.

The Thai people have said "Ok, you say he is a villain and bad, but even if he is he is better than you Yellow PAD Elite, you are far worse than him".

That really slaps them in the face. They held a coup, they put into place control of the checks and balances system, they controlled the media, some say they control the courts and yet, to this day, the people say they prefer the Thaksin over the Elite, as even if he was bad, he is not as bad as all the Yellow and Elites and PAD and NPP and Democrats.

Part of the psychological warfare ongoing is to make this all about Thaksin and not let the real reason that the rural people want Democracy come to the forefront.

New Politics - by taking away any voting power from the people and giving control to the Elite by majority, and allowing the people to vote a non control minority is their only way forward now, they know they have lost the battle of control over the people, the people will no longer sucker up to the Elite, the people prefer politicians now, people who might take 10 and give back 5, as opposed to the Elite who take 100 and give back 1.

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "New Politics".

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "its all Thaksin"

They have to keep pushing their psychological warfare, they have to keep saying its all about Thaksin.

They do not want the world to see that the Thai people have finally said "Elite / Yellow you are so evil and so corrupt and so bad that even the villain you made, the made up villain you threw out of power, we prefer him over you".

Democracy gives the people the power to choose who rules them.

This is not about Thaksin as such, this is about the Elite attempting to struggle to remain in power. They now know that they have lost fake Democracy as a way to control. They will now, in my opinion, attempt to push "New Politics" as its the only way they can remain "in control". "

I find your posts thoughtful and with a good deal of insight. Oh, and if you are still reading, Jingthing you are a moron.

[mamaarroi]

The main cause here is that the lower class and poor Thais, which are sadly the majority, feel that their voices are not being heard and their will not being respected. So what if they vote for Thaksin instead of another corrupt politician. It's their choice. Don't believe for a single second that any other Thai politician isn't corrupt. The Thai people never had the choice between a sincere politician or a corrupt politician - and they know that. But they choose the politician that they think does the most good for them.

So they chose Thaksin. And so Thaksin became the only Thai PM to serve out his full term in office -and- be reelected to another term. Is he corrupt? Sure. But look where he got Thailand in just a few years.

Think of him as Thailand's Berlusconi. Everyone knows Italy's Berlusconi is corrupt. He controls the media, he bribes officials, he uses his power as PM to close business deals and much more. Why do Italians keep voting for Berlusconi? Because he does the most good for Italy.

Back to Thailand. The Thai people have found their Berlusconi in Thaksin. They vote for him. He serves out his full term. They vote for him again and he gets removed by the "elite" that has gotten used to running the country for decades and doesn't want to give up their power. Obviously, the poor Thais get angry and take to the streets. Their voices are not being heard and their votes are not being accepted. Finally, when they are getting desperate to simply get their rights back, they're being called terrorists and insurgents.

Let these people have their voices heard - or they will do whatever it takes to be heard.

+1 Well said.

[scorecard]

"In the long run however Thailand will remain politically unsettled until its elites and military give the Thai people full democracy. That means Mr. Abhisit must embrace the idea that his party could lose in a popular vote. While that might not be an appealing prospect for Mr. Abhisit, that's how democracy works.

Even if Mr. Thaksin never returns to Thailand, he has set off a democracy movement that isn't going away. The sooner Bangkok realizes that, the better. "

-----

Thanks for posting. Let's hope the WSJ site isn't soon on Abhisit's censorship list!

1. The previous articles on this subject by WSJ have been discredited as severly unbalanced and lacking in appropriate and important details.

This article is also lacking in the details needed to show both sides of the picture and is lacking accurate anslysis.

2. "Thaksin has set off a democracy movement". This is the greatest rubbish I have ever read. Thaksin made numerous comments that democracy was not important for Thailand / My goal is not democcarcy, and more, and he decided to arbitarily order the murder of 2,500 fellow Thais. hardly democracy at work?. The truth is that he manipuated and tricked the poor and cunningly gave them false hope. Hardly the actions of a scrupulous and sincere person.

If this is eluding to jatuporn, veera, arisman etrc., as being the leaders of a democracy movement then that's the laugh of the century and also highly inaccurate and also lacking in bnalanced detailed analysis.

3. What censorship list? PM abhsit has gone to great lengths to enusre that there is unintimidated freedom of speech.

I ask the poster to provide details of a censorship list for all to see.

Edited April 11, 2010 by scorecard

[scorecard]

'JonUSA' date='2010-04-11 11:44:24' post='3495024']

'LevelHead' post='3490137' date='2010-04-10 10:05:28']I put this post on the "Are the Reds battling for Thaksins money or Democracy" thread, however it is very relevant here too, as the people are battling for Democracy and their rights, against a Yellow Elite who wish to oppress them, and having failed to do it under "fake Democracy" since 2006, will now push to control the poor by taking control again under their ultimate plan of "New Politics".

"An interesting question and possibly part of the psychological warfare being put out by the Yellow, warfare that has lasted over 5 years now.

Lets flip the question a little, "What are the Yellow Shirts/PAD/NPP/Democrats/Elite fighting for, justice or preservation of power".

I think if we answer that question we will answer the red question and prove that beyond a doubt that the Reds are for Democracy.

Lets rewind to the coup. Prior to the coup the Democrats refused to take part in the election as they knew they would lose and so refused to play.

The CNS were in power after the coup and members of the CNS are on record as saying they will deal with Thaksin by "years of mass psychology" ahead "similar to how we battled the Commies" . In other words there will be a concerted effort to disgrace him, to drag him through the dirt. to find him guilty and to turn him into a villain.

This is very normal, its very common for Junta's and Coup leaders around the world to "make up" all sorts of evidence and find the previous regime in power guilty in Kangaroo courts.

So what we have here is the first time the Thai people (majority) have not been suckered into the media manipulated psychological warfare of the state.

The Thai people have said "Ok, you say he is a villain and bad, but even if he is he is better than you Yellow PAD Elite, you are far worse than him".

That really slaps them in the face. They held a coup, they put into place control of the checks and balances system, they controlled the media, some say they control the courts and yet, to this day, the people say they prefer the Thaksin over the Elite, as even if he was bad, he is not as bad as all the Yellow and Elites and PAD and NPP and Democrats.

Part of the psychological warfare ongoing is to make this all about Thaksin and not let the real reason that the rural people want Democracy come to the forefront.

New Politics - by taking away any voting power from the people and giving control to the Elite by majority, and allowing the people to vote a non control minority is their only way forward now, they know they have lost the battle of control over the people, the people will no longer sucker up to the Elite, the people prefer politicians now, people who might take 10 and give back 5, as opposed to the Elite who take 100 and give back 1.

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "New Politics".

This is why you will see the Yellow Elite attempt to continue to push "its all Thaksin"

They have to keep pushing their psychological warfare, they have to keep saying its all about Thaksin.

They do not want the world to see that the Thai people have finally said "Elite / Yellow you are so evil and so corrupt and so bad that even the villain you made, the made up villain you threw out of power, we prefer him over you".

Democracy gives the people the power to choose who rules them.

This is not about Thaksin as such, this is about the Elite attempting to struggle to remain in power. They now know that they have lost fake Democracy as a way to control. They will now, in my opinion, attempt to push "New Politics" as its the only way they can remain "in control". "

Dear JonUSA,

Your above post is total rubbish and is not an accurate analysis. I suggest you do some further research on the long-term history before you write such rubbish.

You say: "the Reds are for Democracy." Again I suggest you do some more research of the history of the red shirt leaders and their ultimate leader who is thaksin, there is nothing in their whole history which shown democractic intent ot detailed discussion of the process / the pillars of democracy.

You say: "This is not about Thaksin as such". Again, check the long-term history. Just one point, if it's not about thaksin, then why has be been making numerous video call-ins to prompt the masses to rally and intimidate others?

You say: "They held a coup, they put into place control of the checks and balances system, they controlled the media, some say they control the courts They held a coup, they put into place control of the checks and balances system, they controlled the media, some say they control the courts and yet, to this day, the people say they prefer the Thaksin over the Elite, as even if he was bad, he is not as bad as all the Yellow and Elites and PAD and NPP and Democrats.

"They (the coup makers) put into place control of the checks and balance system". You seem to have deliberately not mentioned that thaksin destroyed and severely intimidated the check and balance syetems designed to protect democracy including one of the most important checks; he destroyed and intimidated the Electoral Commission, proven by the fact that the commissionsers were sentenced to jail for malfeasance. All thaksins unscrupulous actions.

"and yet, to this day, the people say they prefer the Thaksin over the Elite, as even if he was bad, he is not as bad as all the Yellow and Elites and PAD and NPP and Democrats.

So when did the 'people' say this? Whats your source for this

[unclejunta]

You don't have to win a majority of votes or even the most votes to assign a PM. There are many ways around these pesky farces some refer to as elections. You can always just have the opposing party declared null and void, or accuse them of cooking on television, or just ride in behind the infantry. Thai politics is very creative.

Not fogetting boycotting elections (because they know they didnt stand a chance).....that was a masterstroke

[JRinger]

The rural poor HAVE a voice, a vote like everyone in Bangkok... so what do they do? They sell it off to the highest bidder.

They say they want democracy, but you cannot have a real democracy without education; even then, money talks the loudest (cf. the USA, where enormous amounts of money are needed even to select the candidate! all right, I admit the vote is fair after that).

Where did you read that nonsense ?

Oh, would it be in the Yellow biased papers ?

Have you ever been around when the vote buying happens. For 3 or 4 nights you will get woken up, once by this party, next by that party, then another party etc..

The people take the money from all of them, all the different parties, but then vote for the ONE THEY WANT TO.

That is democracy, and the only effect vote buying has is if you do not offer money they will not vote for you, but they will happily take 500 baht from PTP and 500 baht from the Democrats, and then decide on their own which one to vote for.

This is "Thai" vote buying.

If you do not know that and cannot understand or appreciate how the system works then please, do some research and live among the people for a few years.

Its on the Yellow biased papers that try to say, cleverly, accusations against one side, but ignore the other side do it too.

"vote for the ONE THEY WANT TO" ?

although you may be partially correct, most of the uneducated people from Isaan vote for who the Puyai Ban tells them as they are continually brainwashed into believing because of the 30 baht health scheme and cheap loans that Toxin was a better PM.

My mother-in-law spends a lot of time in front of the television watching the UDD channel and getting more brainwashed. When I ask her what did Toxin do to better education for the rural poor, she has no answer. I remember when he first took the helm as PM as fired the Minister of Education and took over the position himself, then what ? hired a bunch of mercenaries to shoot anyone they suspected of selling drugs.

The elite have always been determined to keep the poor uneducated and ill-informed.

Many foreigner's have been here a long time and understand that the Army is the ruling class and together with the rich business people exploit, manipulate and cheat the poor Isaan people for their own interests; mainly cars, their new houses, sending their spoiled and brainwashed kids to the west to get a good education so they can return to Thailand and exploit the poor even more. Do you see any of the gold shop owners or factory owners, etc., etc., in red shirts fighting for democracy? They could care less....The Chinese Thai only care about money, money and more money. They'll spend their entire life behind their shop desk forever counting money and cheating anyone and everyone they can.

Now, I know I'm going to get some negative feedback from some young whippersnappers who have been here a year or two and think they know what's really going on here after living in Bangkok and teaching English, etc., and don't speak or understand Thai or spent any real time in Isaan or the North, so be it.

All the above is my own personal opinion after having lived here for 25 years with one trip back to the west for a month. Of course I'm no expert and politics I don't get involved with, just my opinion and observation based on my experience..for what it's worth. If I didn't like it here I certainly wouldn't stay and even with all the turmoil, idiot drivers (both farang and Thai), cheats, etc., it still beats hel_l out of the states....

Edited April 11, 2010 by JRinger

[JRinger]

double post....excuse

Edited April 11, 2010 by JRinger

[citizen33]

"vote for the ONE THEY WANT TO" ?

although you may be partially correct, most of the uneducated people from Isaan vote for who the Puyai Ban tells them as they are continually brainwashed into believing because of the 30 baht health scheme and cheap loans that Toxin was a better PM.

My mother-in-law spends a lot of time in front of the television watching the UDD channel and getting more brainwashed. When I ask her what did Toxin do to better education for the rural poor, she has no answer. I remember when he first took the helm as PM as fired the Minister of Education and took over the position himself, then what ? hired a bunch of mercenaries to shoot anyone they suspected of selling drugs.

The elite have always been determined to keep the poor uneducated and ill-informed.

Many foreigner's have been here a long time and understand that the Army is the ruling class and together with the rich business people exploit, manipulate and cheat the poor Isaan people for their own interests; mainly cars, their new houses, sending their spoiled and brainwashed kids to the west to get a good education so they can return to Thailand and exploit the poor even more. Do you see any of the gold shop owners or factory owners, etc., etc., in red shirts fighting for democracy? They could care less....The Chinese Thai only care about money, money and more money. They'll spend their entire life behind their shop desk forever counting money and cheating anyone and everyone they can.

Now, I know I'm going to get some negative feedback from some young whippersnappers who have been here a year or two and think they know what's really going on here after living in Bangkok and teaching English, etc., and don't speak or understand Thai or spent any real time in Isaan or the North, so be it.

All the above is my own personal opinion after having lived here for 25 years with one trip back to the west for a month. Of course I'm no expert and politics I don't get involved with, just my opinion and observation based on my experience..for what it's worth. If I didn't like it here I certainly wouldn't stay and even with all the turmoil, idiot drivers (both farang and Thai), cheats, etc., it still beats hel_l out of the states....

I wonder if, living in Isaan, you have noticed the many new university campuses in the NE, several being offshoots of established Universities elsewhere? There has also been a rapid expansion of existing NE institutions and the establishment of medical schools at places like MSU and Ubon. Although I wouldn't myself put this down to Thaksin personally, the period of TRT and PT rule did see an improvement of education in the NE.

Vote buying exists, but I have a lot of sympathy for the view that most parties participate. I'd say the big issue in this thread and others is whether the 'poo yai' are really calling all the shots and the people blindly following. That was the old way but has been changed by the direct connection Thaksin established and the stirrings of political consciousness among the rural poor.

I was talking to a yellow sympathizer friend from Yasothon yesterday. She was maintaining that the red shirts in Bangkok are on 500 baht per day. When pressed, however, she toned down her claim and said that in her home village there is 90 per cent support for the reds and 30 per cent are in Bangkok because they believe. I am writing this from another village in central Isaan where red support is strong.

[scorecard]

You don't have to win a majority of votes or even the most votes to assign a PM. There are many ways around these pesky farces some refer to as elections. You can always just have the opposing party declared null and void, or accuse them of cooking on television, or just ride in behind the infantry. Thai politics is very creative.

Not fogetting boycotting elections (because they know they didnt stand a chance).....that was a masterstroke

They didn't boycott the election because they couldn't win, they boycotted the election because the set up of the election was inappropriate.

Edited April 11, 2010 by scorecard

[scorecard]

Possibly it would be a big step forward if the bloody ridiculous self protective rule regarding the necessity of Bachelors degree (in any subject) was removed as a pre-requisite for being able to stand for election and to be able to enter parliament in the event of being elected,

A wonderful example of a piece of legislation designed to protect the more well to do in exercising their power over the less well to do.

( seems as it took Arisman11 years to complete his Bachelors degree, indeed a wonderful comment on his intellectual abilities and possibly the standards of the university he presumably attended, or did it take that long to save up the pass your degree payment I wonder)

I haven't noticed that particular subject being raised by the leaders of the red Shirt Brigade.

Perhaps the Red Shirt Brigade leaders are a trifle concerned that they may find themselves vulnerable if the lower orderer actually had a say in what happens and how and who those decisions may affect for better or worse ?

There are a few good universities in Thailand, but a Bachelor's degree at most of them is worth no more than a high-school diploma in most Western countries. And if it took Arisman 11 years to complete, Heaven help the country if he and his like gain power!

Not quite true about the 'worth' of a bachelor degree in Thailand.

My university (and others) have numerous exchange programs with highly credible and well known universities in Europe, US, UK, Singapore, Australia and China.

None of these places would endorse the exchange agreements if they were not convinced of the quality.

Arisman taking 11 years is irrelevant.

[grr]

There are a few good universities in Thailand, but a Bachelor's degree at most of them is worth no more than a high-school diploma in most Western countries. And if it took Arisman 11 years to complete, Heaven help the country if he and his like gain power!

Taking 11 years means that maybe he didn't have the funds to pay it all at once and had to work in between to being able to pay for his degree? Just a thought.

[lannarebirth]

There are a few good universities in Thailand, but a Bachelor's degree at most of them is worth no more than a high-school diploma in most Western countries. And if it took Arisman 11 years to complete, Heaven help the country if he and his like gain power!

Taking 11 years means that maybe he didn't have the funds to pay it all at once and had to work in between to being able to pay for his degree? Just a thought.

I'd rather see someone take 11 years than 11 minutes and 100k baht. there are plenty of the latter type politicians around.

[JAG]

You don't have to win a majority of votes or even the most votes to assign a PM. There are many ways around these pesky farces some refer to as elections. You can always just have the opposing party declared null and void, or accuse them of cooking on television, or just ride in behind the infantry. Thai politics is very creative.

Not fogetting boycotting elections (because they know they didnt stand a chance).....that was a masterstroke

They didn't boycott the election because they couldn't win, they boycotted the election because the set up of the election was inappropriate.

It was inappropriate because they knew that they wern't going to win it.

Lets face it, wether you support one side or the other, this has come about because one faction, not wishing to lose power, removed an elected government, through a coup, and then by manipulating the courts. The difference between this and all the other coups is that with Thaksin (corrupt or not) the rural poor had tasted what it meant to have been able to choose the government. That particular genie is out of the bottle, and it will not go back in.

[garyh]

Anyone who has any interest in Thailand should watch this. http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?WT.svl=mainNav#/view/547910