Dual Citizenship Issues For Half Thai 19yr Old In Thailand Now

[pokerjoe]

My 19 year old half-Thai, half-US son, born and raised in California, has been living with his Thai mom for six months now, on some kind of one-year visa he got by being her son.

He wants to go ahead and get a Thai passport. But the information he's getting from his mom, aunts, and immigration officers is conflicting with what I read here by Somran and Arkady and others, and conflicting with each other, too. And because I trust the posters here more than my son's family there (I don't know why, but I do), I'm asking for some clarification.

1) He's hearing that he has to give up his US passport to get his Thai passport.

2) He's also been told that, because he doesn't speak Thai, he can't be drafted into the Army if he does get a Thai passport.

3) And he's been told that he can get his Thai passport in Thailand and won't have to come back to the states and apply from here, although this is conflicting with other info he's received on the issue.

All true?

Also, would getting a Thai lawyer help, and if so, can anyone recommend one?

[Declan]

Hi

Yes a Thai citizen cannot hold 2 passports, unless of course ur an ex PM who did for a while

He cannot be drafted if he cant speak Thai

I think he can get his Passport but it will be a pain in the _ _ _ first step, have his birth certificate notarized by a Public Notary at his place of birth. Then have it authenticated at the US Embassy on Wireless Rd in Bkk, then have it stamped at the Passport office on Chaeng Wattana Road 2nd floor ( takes time there go early ), Then go downstairs to the 1st floor where the passport is issued.

Believe me this will all take time and a lot of sitting around

Good luck

Forget the Lawyer

[IMA_FARANG]

Well, I'm not the expert to answer your questions...maybe others will correct me...but anyhow:

1. No he can have dual Thai and U.S. citizenship. He does not have to give up his U.S. passport to get a Thai passport. Many people with dual Thai/U.S. nationality use their Thai passport to enter Thailand, but use their U.S. passport to travel in other countries and enter the U.S. Its perfectly legal.

2. Wrong. He can be taken into the Thai military even if he doesn't speak Thai. It seems like a silly thing to do, but since he is a Thai citizen they COULD require him to serve. How likely that would be is another question. He might be required to go through the lottery...where you draw a colored slip. If you get the color that allows you to go free, you don't have to go into the Army. Draw the other color and you can be picked. You are eligable...but that doesn't mean you will be picked even if you are eligable.

3. If your son is listed on his mother's ( or some relative in Thailand) house book...if he is listed as living in Thailand on that house book...he can get a Thai passport in Thailand at the local Ampur where he is listed as residing. That is if he has a Thai I.D. card. If he doesn't have a Thai I.D. card...and isn't listed on a house book in Thailand, it is possible for him to get a Thai passport in the U.S. from the Thai embessy/consulate with a copy of his Thai birth certificate (to prove he is Thai). It could be done in California...since you said he was born there. If you try to get the passport in Thailand they will want to see a Thai I.D. card, maybe proof of being on someone's house book, or some relative or village leader who can certify him as Thai born if he hasn't either a Thai I.D. card or a house book record. In California the Thai embessy/consulate would want to see a copy of his Thai birth certificate, They might ask where his Thai I.D. card is...but he could simply say he has been living in Californai, so he never recieved a Thai I.D. card.

I far as I know, that's how it works. If Im wrong I'm sure someone will be on here soon to correct me...but I believe I got it right.

[IMA_FARANG]

See, you've recieved two different answers and we disagree on all points.

So, if I were you wait for one of the Visa and Dual Nationality experts to show up. Lopburi3...if he still on this forum...would be the authoratative person I would trust most.

[PoorSucker]

If he's not listed in a housebook he will not get drafted.

Better to get the passport in the US.

[scorecard]

Why don't you get some proper legal advice rather than listen to armchair opinions.

There are a couple of sponsors of TV who are lawyers and experts on this kind of subject area.

Perhaps a couple of members could share their experiences / recommendations in regard to actual lawyers.

This matter is obviously important and sensitive, spend some money and get it right.

[lopburi3]

1. He can have more than one passport - thousands of Thai do.

2. He must register for the draft when he becomes listed on home register and can be drafted - but many are never called up and there are many exceptions. After age 30 he would not be called up.

3. If he was born outside of Thailand the first step is to take foreign birth certifcate to Thai Embassy in that country to prepare a Thai birth certificate - they can then issue him a Thai passport. Trying to do from the Thai end is likely to be a very flustrating experience as you must be listed on a home register and to be listed you must have a Thai birth certificate. Much easier to do this in US.

Samran has done the procedure from Oz and will likely advise you after he sees your post. He is very helpful.

A Thai lawyer would likely not have a clue. Just as those in District Officers here have no knowledge of this. Only those with experience overseas (Consulate officials) are likely to know.

[samran]

My 19 year old half-Thai, half-US son, born and raised in California, has been living with his Thai mom for six months now, on some kind of one-year visa he got by being her son.

He wants to go ahead and get a Thai passport. But the information he's getting from his mom, aunts, and immigration officers is conflicting with what I read here by Somran and Arkady and others, and conflicting with each other, too. And because I trust the posters here more than my son's family there (I don't know why, but I do), I'm asking for some clarification.

1) He's hearing that he has to give up his US passport to get his Thai passport.

2) He's also been told that, because he doesn't speak Thai, he can't be drafted into the Army if he does get a Thai passport.

3) And he's been told that he can get his Thai passport in Thailand and won't have to come back to the states and apply from here, although this is conflicting with other info he's received on the issue.

All true?

Also, would getting a Thai lawyer help, and if so, can anyone recommend one?

1) He does not have to give up anything to get a Thai passport. Thai law is very clear, a child born to a foreign parent can, if they so wish, give up their Thai nationality between ages 20 and 21. There is no penalty if he doesn't.

2) If he is living in Thailand, on a Thai passport with an ID card, he will be liable to report for army. He may not get picked. The rules aren't specific on whether someone needs Thai language proficiency or not, but I do know someone who was exempted (a farang born in Thailand who has Thai citizenship) given he couldn't read or write Thai.

3) Depends where your son was born. If he was born in the states, he'll need to get his Thai birth certificate from the nearest Thai consulate, or the Thai embassy in Washington DC. Thai birth certificates for those born outside of Thailand are different to the ones born inside the kingdom. So the first stop is the Thai consulate in LA. With that in hand, he can apply for his Thai passport in the US. He must be there in person for that. With that passport he can enter Thailand on the Thai passport, giving him no limitation on his stay.

Given he was not born in Thailand, he can't get a Thai birth certificate issued in Thailand.

With the Thai birth certificate issied in the US and Thai passport, he can then be entered onto the family house registration and then get an ID card. This last step puts him on the radar for mililary service. However, if he isn't going to be living in Thailand for an extended period of time, then I don't recommend getting on the house registration. If he is goign to be living in Thailand for a while, then an ID card is extremely useful (as well as being compulsory). But having an ID does make life extremely easy, and he'll be able to apply for subsqeuent Thai passports in Thailand, as well as do a range of other things (work, get bank accounts etc)

[tripplejjj]

I agree with IMA_FARANG, lopburi3, and samran.

1) False

2) False

3) False

FYI: In practice, IF true and IF I was forced to give up my US passport in order to get a Thai passport, then I would just go to the US consulate and get a new one after I got me a Thai passport. To give up your US passport doesn't mean you are giving up your US citizenship. BTW, a US passport belongs to the US government.

[pokerjoe]

Why don't you get some proper legal advice rather than listen to armchair opinions.

There are a couple of sponsors of TV who are lawyers and experts on this kind of subject area.

Perhaps a couple of members could share their experiences / recommendations in regard to actual lawyers.

This matter is obviously important and sensitive, spend some money and get it right.

Scorecard: before dealing with lawyers, always learn as much about the issue as possible. Lawyers aren't always competent and are NEVER on your side. They work for themselves, always, only. That's fine, but to protect yourself, research first. I'm not a practicing attorney, but I did attend law school. I know of what I speak. And, fyi, he and his mom have spoken to three different Thai officials and gotten three different answers (in BKK, Khon Kaen and Udon).

For all others, thank you. Seems like it might be best for him to come home and apply for his passport from here, and then return, understanding that he'll have to take his chances with the draft over there.

Two more questions before I send him off to find a lawyer there (which I'm a little loathe to do because I won't be in the room with him, and the idea of leaving my teenage son in the hands of an attorney is a little scary).

Can I possibly apply for his passport on his behalf here? Or would he have to do it in person?

If he comes home to get his passport and doesn't register at his local amphur upon his return to Thailand, would he not be drafted? That means no Thai ID card, would that mean no Thai privleges, other than visa avoidance? Could he work?

Thanks again for the excellent replies.

[tripplejjj]

If he comes home to get his passport and doesn't register at his local amphur upon his return to Thailand, would he not be drafted? That means no Thai ID card, would that mean no Thai privleges, other than visa avoidance? Could he work?

I am unsure on this. But let's say that he now has a Thai passport and he wants to work in Thailand. If you wants to work, then he needs a Thai ID. In order to get a Thai ID, he needs to be registered in a house book. Once he is registered in a house book, he then may be drafted. There is a method to this madness after all.

[Mario2008]

As far as I know, a passport holds your Thai ID-number, which will also be on your ID-card. It is that number that is important, not the ID-card itself. So a Thai passport might look strange, but should be enough.

[samran]

Scorecard: before dealing with lawyers, always learn as much about the issue as possible. Lawyers aren't always competent and are NEVER on your side. They work for themselves, always, only. That's fine, but to protect yourself, research first. I'm not a practicing attorney, but I did attend law school. I know of what I speak. And, fyi, he and his mom have spoken to three different Thai officials and gotten three different answers (in BKK, Khon Kaen and Udon).

For all others, thank you. Seems like it might be best for him to come home and apply for his passport from here, and then return, understanding that he'll have to take his chances with the draft over there.

Two more questions before I send him off to find a lawyer there (which I'm a little loathe to do because I won't be in the room with him, and the idea of leaving my teenage son in the hands of an attorney is a little scary).

Can I possibly apply for his passport on his behalf here? Or would he have to do it in person?

If he comes home to get his passport and doesn't register at his local amphur upon his return to Thailand, would he not be drafted? That means no Thai ID card, would that mean no Thai privleges, other than visa avoidance? Could he work?

Thanks again for the excellent replies.

no need to hire a lawyer. The process is really designed to be idiot proof and is one of the more streamlined anywhere in the world (really).

The Thai birth certificate can be issued via post from the Thai embassy in DC. It is a matter of filling in a form and showing evidence that one parent has Thai nationality.

The passport application in the US will require your sons presence. All Thai passports contain biometric information, so require that a photo be taken on application by the consular offical and a finger print taken. Fortunately, the Thai passport application is one of the most efficient in the world, so there are no silly forms to fill in.

As far as I know, a passport holds your Thai ID-number, which will also be on your ID-card. It is that number that is important, not the ID-card itself. So a Thai passport might look strange, but should be enough.

If someone who was born overseas and is applying for the first time for a passport, it is unlikely they will have an ID number. This was the case with me, and the section of my passport where the ID number went was left blank. Applying via the Consular/embassy route will allow them to waive the need for an ID card/house registration, whereas applying in Thailand will require them.

[Arkady]

1 and 2 are false but 3 is true. Answers by Samran and others cover the points very well and Pokerjoe's advice not to spend money on lawyers is sound. Unlike in the US, nationality is not a lucrative area for Thai lawyers, so there is no reason for them to become knowledgeable in this area but they will take your money anyway, if you are so generous as to offer it to them. The quote below from a Thai Foreign Ministry official in 2004 (still valid under the 2008 Nationality Act) extracted from Phuket Gazette helps clarify point 1 further as well as dealing with the issue of dual citizenship of Thai wives adopting their husband's nationality. The current interpretation of the law for half-Thai children is that it allows them to renounce their nationality, in the event that they choose to use only their other nationality and the other country doesn't permit dual nationality, and that it also allows males who pan to live in Thailand permanently to avoid the draft. Renouncing Thai nationality simply to avoid the draft would not make much sense to some one who thinks he might want to live in Thailand permanently, even though former Thai citizens who have voluntarily renounced nationality are entitled to permanent residence automatically.

Dual nationality for Thais

If a Thai woman marries a man from the US and she later becomes a US citizen, does the Thai woman lose her Thai citizenship?

Enrique Ramirez, Phuket. Monday, April 12, 2004

“Section 13 of the Citizenship Act 1965 stipulates that a female Thai national who marries a foreigner and is later granted citizenship by her foreign husband’s home country shall maintain her Thai nationality.

There is no Thai law that stipulates that she must lose her Thai citizenship. However, she may choose to revoke her Thai citizenship, a decision the Thai government will announce the Government Gazette.

For Thai children with dual nationality, the Citizenship Act (3rd issue) 1992 states that a Thai national with a foreign father may declare his or her intention to revoke Thai nationality within the year following the child’s 20th birthday.

The law does not mention that the child will automatically have his or her Thai citizenship revoked. If the child does not declare his or her intention to revoke Thai citizenship, that child will still hold Thai nationality.”

Monday, April 12, 2004 Satchaphand Atthakor, Deputy Director-General, Consular Affairs Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[pokerjoe]

1 and 2 are false but 3 is true. Answers by Samran and others cover the points very well and Pokerjoe's advice not to spend money on lawyers is sound. Unlike in the US, nationality is not a lucrative area for Thai lawyers, so there is no reason for them to become knowledgeable in this area but they will take your money anyway, if you are so generous as to offer it to them. The quote below from a Thai Foreign Ministry official in 2004 (still valid under the 2008 Nationality Act) extracted from Phuket Gazette helps clarify point 1 further as well as dealing with the issue of dual citizenship of Thai wives adopting their husband's nationality. The current interpretation of the law for half-Thai children is that it allows them to renounce their nationality, in the event that they choose to use only their other nationality and the other country doesn't permit dual nationality, and that it also allows males who pan to live in Thailand permanently to avoid the draft. Renouncing Thai nationality simply to avoid the draft would not make much sense to some one who thinks he might want to live in Thailand permanently, even though former Thai citizens who have voluntarily renounced nationality are entitled to permanent residence automatically.

Dual nationality for Thais

If a Thai woman marries a man from the US and she later becomes a US citizen, does the Thai woman lose her Thai citizenship?

Enrique Ramirez, Phuket. Monday, April 12, 2004

“Section 13 of the Citizenship Act 1965 stipulates that a female Thai national who marries a foreigner and is later granted citizenship by her foreign husband’s home country shall maintain her Thai nationality.

There is no Thai law that stipulates that she must lose her Thai citizenship. However, she may choose to revoke her Thai citizenship, a decision the Thai government will announce the Government Gazette.

For Thai children with dual nationality, the Citizenship Act (3rd issue) 1992 states that a Thai national with a foreign father may declare his or her intention to revoke Thai nationality within the year following the child’s 20th birthday.

The law does not mention that the child will automatically have his or her Thai citizenship revoked. If the child does not declare his or her intention to revoke Thai citizenship, that child will still hold Thai nationality.”

Monday, April 12, 2004 Satchaphand Atthakor, Deputy Director-General, Consular Affairs Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Thank you all much. And to all who think this forum is too contentious to be useful, pfffft. This is still the best place to come for such answers.

[tripplejjj]

@Arkady,

1 and 2 are false but 3 is true.

#3 is false. According to Samran, the son was born in the States so he has to get his Thai passport in the US because he can not get his Thai passport while in Thailand.

From Pokerjoe,

My 19 year old half-Thai, half-US son, born and raised in California....

3) And he's been told that he can get his Thai passport in Thailand and won't have to come back to the states and apply from here, although this is conflicting with other info he's received on the issue.

From Samran,

3) Depends where your son was born. If he was born in the states, he'll need to get his Thai birth certificate from the nearest Thai consulate, or the Thai embassy in Washington DC. Thai birth certificates for those born outside of Thailand are different to the ones born inside the kingdom. So the first stop is the Thai consulate in LA. With that in hand, he can apply for his Thai passport in the US. He must be there in person for that. With that passport he can enter Thailand on the Thai passport, giving him no limitation on his stay.

[bkk_mike]

Actually, I think he probably could get his Thai passport in Thailand, but only aftergetting an ID card.

i.e. get Thai birth certificate from the embassy in the US (which someone earlier stated can be done by post)

Then get onto a house book, using the Thai birth certificate.

Then get the id card (apparently if you're born abroad, this isn't issued automatically, but you can get it "re-issued" by reporting it lost - once you're on a house book.)

With a Thai ID card, and Thai birth certificate, you "should" be able to get a passport in Thailand.

However, it would definitely be easier in the US...

As for dual nationality. It's really a grey area as the law doesn't specifically allow it or deny it. It seems the MFA (who issue passports and run consular sections abroad) definitely read the law as it's allowed. On the other hand immigration staff (different department) often believe that children born with dual nationality have to give one of them up at 21. (which is definitely true for some countries that explicitly don't allow dual nationality.)

(You almost wish Tiger Woods had taken up the offer of a Thai passport simply so that there would be a high profile non-royal (Becker children) case to point out to immigration staff.)

[samran]

Actually, I think he probably could get his Thai passport in Thailand, but only aftergetting an ID card.

i.e. get Thai birth certificate from the embassy in the US (which someone earlier stated can be done by post)

Then get onto a house book, using the Thai birth certificate.

Then get the id card (apparently if you're born abroad, this isn't issued automatically, but you can get it "re-issued" by reporting it lost - once you're on a house book.)

With a Thai ID card, and Thai birth certificate, you "should" be able to get a passport in Thailand.

Won't work AFAIK.

As an overseas born Thai, one of the things you need to show to get said ID card is a Thai passport showing when you entered the country for the first time. One of the requirements on their checklist of things.

[Humungus]

I think he's risking having to do military service. He can stay on a Non immigrant O visa as long as he likes, but if he got his Thai ID sorted out he'd be free to work at McDonald's so you have to weigh the benefits.

[BangkokShocks]

Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'd just ask a similar question in this one, is the procedure the same for a British citizen?

[lopburi3]

Should be the same for all if second country allows dual citizenship.

[BangkokShocks]

I don't understand this option about revoking Thai citizenship. If a child is born abroad to a mother or father that holds Thai birth certificate/citizenship/passport, and takes citizenship/passport of said foreign country, does that mean the child automatically has the right to Thai citizenship even if the child has no registered Thai birth certificate? I would have thought that the child or adult as the case may be, would not have Thai citizenship unless applied for? Also, are there age restrictions? I notice the t/s mentions the age being 19, and a follow up reply stating 20 as a significant age. Thank you in advance for any responses.

[Mario2008]

I don't understand this option about revoking Thai citizenship. If a child is born abroad to a mother or father that holds Thai birth certificate/citizenship/passport, and takes citizenship/passport of said foreign country, does that mean the child automatically has the right to Thai citizenship even if the child has no registered Thai birth certificate? I would have thought that the child or adult as the case may be, would not have Thai citizenship unless applied for? Also, are there age restrictions? I notice the t/s mentions the age being 19, and a follow up reply stating 20 as a significant age. Thank you in advance for any responses.

When one of the parents is Thai, the child is automatically a Thai national. The registering at the birth with the embassy if born abroad serves to inform the Thai government that a Thai national is born, without it they wouldn't know.

[TerryLH]

"Then get the id card (apparently if you're born abroad, this isn't issued automatically, but you can get it "re-issued" by reporting it lost - once you're on a house book.)"

Samran explained it.

You'd need a number to get a re-issue. Even a 're-issue'.

"I think he's risking having to do military service."

You're looking at that as a negative thing. In many cases I think it's a positive.

Don't know the kid, so can't make a comment about this specific case.