Thai Government Hangs By A Thread

[TheOldWolf]

That doesn't mean anything. It's a news article posted by The Nation, might as well be something someone wrote at Fox News or the Disney Channel. Where's the actual statement that the red shirt leaders made? If you can't back it up with credible evidence, don't post it. Simple as that.

So, even though there is not enough evidence for you (I agree, just seeing it in the Nation doesn't make it evidence - but a previous poster put forward other support), you still try and avoid at least a simple statement along the lines of "If he said it ....".

Even if you don't believe it happened, you still don't denounce the statement.

Dude, here it is:

I don't support derailing the skytrain, for whatever reason

Happy? I never said that I support violence. If Jatuporn or whoever said that, it's certainly wrong. But that doesn't mean that the entire concerns of the red shirt movement should be ignored. The government needs to start LISTENING to the poor rural Thais, not just ignore them and tell them to shut up and go back to their farms. These times have ended 100 or 200 years ago in Europe, and they're ending now in Thailand.

I think if you have read the threads here, you will find that most of the people you ar fighting against are anti-Thaksin, anti-red, supports efforts to get a better life for the poor rurlal.

[chadintheusa]

Abhisit must resign. Look at what he is saying on television to the Thai Nation to calm them. It is insanity!

So what did he say?

[Richard W]

In a democracy its the party that comes in power that do so thru a general election . What the PPP did does not excuse whatsoever what the dems did or in this case did not . If the dems were so sure about winning general elections why they did not call for it ?

One reason put forward for no election about this time (mostly before PPP disolution) was that most of the parties couldn't afford another election. Thai elections are very expensive.

[yoshiwara]

Thaksin is the problem.

The red shirts should go home and GET INVOLVED in *politics*, not mob rule.

The people in Isaan should look at the corruption in their own back yards before they come to Bangkok to blame people here.

They should look at the corruption of their leaders, and after they have dealt with that, then they can come to Bangkok and complain about the corruption here.

How about increasing minimum wages for the poor? In Europe we spend more per day than these people make per month. That will help reduce corruption. Poor people take money and bribes because they don't have another way of making more money. How about giving them free health insurance so that they can visit good hospitals as well? They can't afford Bumrungrad. How about giving the old people an actual pension? They get no money when they're old.

make all the policies from the back of your head as you like.

The Thaksin forces have a zero economic policy programme.

And I doubt if any of Thaksin's phone calls are to you to make up a policy.

For Thaksin's apologists the policy traffic is one-way.

Thaksin's way.

Stick to the script.

[Jingthing]

Isn't it about time the TITLE of this thread be changed?

From

Thai Government Hangs By A Thread, RAID AT THAICOM

To

Red shirt movement hangs by a thread, government succeeding in clearing violent protesters with minimal casualties

[rixalex]

If Jatuporn or whoever said that, it's certainly wrong. But that doesn't mean that the entire concerns of the red shirt movement should be ignored.

If a leader is saying that then no, it doesn't mean that the concerns of the movement should be ignored, but yes, it does mean that the movement should be. It's quite possible to support some of their concerns without supporting them.

[vicco]

Simply sweeping protesters off the streets won't help solve anything. They will simply regroup and come back. Abhisit needs to fix the toilet that's leaking water, not just clean up the water. It will leak again.

Can't fix a leaky toilet with out draining the tank first.

Shut off the water source sand give it a flush...

Then you can address the leak.

This is for want of a more tasteful metaphor what we are seeing today.

Ahaa..now I understand this whole situation much better. This is about plumbing and there I was thinking it was politics....and everybody ranting and raving around

in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail. Farang's don't understand Thai plumbing at all... Is that what all that water was squirting all over the redshirts a while ago??

[dpb]

Ummm again in Parliamentary democracies governments can change without a new election. Small parties can realign and poof --- a new government. To suggest otherwise is simply a lie.

You used a plural, suggesting that changes of government without electoral approval are regular occurrences in democracies. Do you have any more examples of this than the one in Thailand in 2008?

Try Gordon Brown for one, Bib Netanyahu for another.

No new elections called when they took office.

Blair retired, Brown voted in by Mps.

Bibi's party came insecond, but the winner failed to get a coaltion with enough seats,

Netanyahu is PM of Israel with 2nd place minority party.

No newe election called... this could last till next election cycles, or fall and a new one come in.

This has happened in many countries...

A parliament is elected and and IF a party shows

enough leadership to quickly put together a new coalition

they form a government, if they fall and another can quickly do the same they can.

This can go on until either a vote of no confidence is passed calling for a new

parliament to be elected, of the ruling PM dissolves the parliament.

If neither of these options happen then an election is called.

Essentially if a coalition can claim enough MP's they can rule.

Didn't Brown just call for early elections?

he called it early by one month

[4223rhodes]

Abhisit must resign. Look at what he is saying on television to the Thai Nation to calm them. It is insanity!

So what did he say?

Absolutely nothing! Nothing!

[moresomekl]

Ummm again in Parliamentary democracies governments can change without a new election. Small parties can realign and poof --- a new government. To suggest otherwise is simply a lie.

You used a plural, suggesting that changes of government without electoral approval are regular occurrences in democracies. Do you have any more examples of this than the one in Thailand in 2008?

Try Gordon Brown for one, Bibi Netanyahu for another.

No new elections called when they took office.

Blair retired, Brown voted in by Mps.

Bibi's party came insecond, but the winner failed to get a coalition with enough seats,

Netanyahu is PM of Israel with 2nd place minority party.

No new election called... this could last till next election cycles, or fall and a new one come in.

This has happened in many countries...

A parliament is elected and and IF a party shows

enough leadership to quickly put together a new coalition

they form a government, if they fall and another can quickly do the same they can.

This can go on until either a vote of no confidence is passed calling for a new

parliament to be elected, of the ruling PM dissolves the parliament.

If neither of these options happen then an election is called.

Essentially if a coalition can claim enough MP's they can rule.

Israel ? The court in Israel disolved the party in power there ?

First time i hear of that . Lets compare apple to apple

Then in the thai context I guess by showing enough leadership you mean

showing enough $$$ right ?

[jdinasia]

Thaksin is the problem.

The red shirts should go home and GET INVOLVED in *politics*, not mob rule.

The people in Isaan should look at the corruption in their own back yards before they come to Bangkok to blame people here.

They should look at the corruption of their leaders, and after they have dealt with that, then they can come to Bangkok and complain about the corruption here.

How about increasing minimum wages for the poor? In Europe we spend more per day than these people make per month. That will help reduce corruption. Poor people take money and bribes because they don't have another way of making more money. How about giving them free health insurance so that they can visit good hospitals as well? They can't afford Bumrungrad. How about giving the old people an actual pension? They get no money when they're old.

1) This isn't Europe

2) This will reduce corruption (wow that sounds familiar --- didn't people say Thaksin was too rich to participate in corruption?)

3) Exactly how will you pay for these social programs to make them sustainable?

4) The Dems are pushing social welfare programs including old age pensions as fast as possible.

[animatic]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The government needs to start addressing the concerns of the poor rural Thais.

2 years ago they had serious concerns, they were ignored.

1 year ago, they were still ignored, we had the "Black Songkran".

Now, they're still being ignored, we're having riots again.

How about the government addresses the concerns and problems of the poor rural Thais for a change?

You can clear people off the streets, but the problem won't go away.

And the problem isn't Thaksin. Thaksin is a part of the engine of the red shirt movement, nothing more.

1 year ago the government was 3-4 months in office and

fighting against a world wide economic crash that the PREVIOUS PPP

government was to brain dead to even see coming. So made it worse.

Once Abhisit and Korn got past preventing the metldown, they DID started

dealing with issues of Concern for Issan people.Things being done,

Thaksin's minions did the best they could to prevent being heard about up country.

We're having riots because Thaksins Perception Management crew has made it SEEM,

that this is the only way to move forwards. This demonstration happend right after

Thasksin's money went bye bye. No coincidence.

[Netfan]

Every country is reliant on a large pool of slave labor or underpaid workers. You'll never have a country where everyone is rich. Would rich people do the back breaking labor involved in farming rice? No. But this country needs it to be done, so you need poor people who are willing to do it.

They would probably hire Cambodians or Burmese to do the job and exploit them if they had the money. But you are right - in every country someone has to do the manual labor. In the US its mostly itinerent farm labor, much of it illegal. In no country will you find total equality. No one on this forum that i can recall has said the poor have no grievences - but the way to deal with that is through the ballot box - which chance the leaders were offered, but Thaksin shot it down.

[Ricardo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The government needs to start addressing the concerns of the poor rural Thais.

2 years ago they had serious concerns, they were ignored.

1 year ago, they were still ignored, we had the "Black Songkran".

Now, they're still being ignored, we're having riots again.

How about the government addresses the concerns and problems of the poor rural Thais for a change?

You can clear people off the streets, but the problem won't go away. And the problem isn't Thaksin. Thaksin is a part of the engine of the red shirt movement, nothing more.

The new government, in power for some 16 months now, has made the 30-Baht hospital-scheme free, offered the indebted-farmers a generous refinancing-deal, and promised free-education. To finance these, it has proposed a land-tax, hardly an elitist-policy.

So I'd judge that the government already is addressing the concerns of poor rural Thais. And rightly so !

Regarding democracy, they offered the Red-Shirt leaders a joint review of the Constitution, and an election 12 months earlier than it currently is mandated. This was rejected out-of-hand, without any reference to their supporters on-the-streets, let alone a vote upon the offer. True-Democracy thus shows itself to be truly a dictatorship, especially to the poor supporters, so who would you suggest is pulling the strings, if not Thaksin ?

This government deserves more time, to show its true colours through its actions, I hope they are granted it, as a military-coup would not be progress, any more than Thaksin's return would be.

[jdinasia]

If Jatuporn or whoever said that, it's certainly wrong. But that doesn't mean that the entire concerns of the red shirt movement should be ignored.

If a leader is saying that then no, it doesn't mean that the concerns of the movement should be ignored, but yes, it does mean that the movement should be. It's quite possible to support some of their concerns without supporting them.

I 100% concur!

[Jingthing]

If Jatuporn or whoever said that, it's certainly wrong. But that doesn't mean that the entire concerns of the red shirt movement should be ignored.

If a leader is saying that then no, it doesn't mean that the concerns of the movement should be ignored, but yes, it does mean that the movement should be. It's quite possible to support some of their concerns without supporting them.

Correct. For example, IF the government had turned out to be brutal murderers like the generals of Burma, I can assure you the vast majority of anti-reds would have condemned the government. But now that the reds have turned terrorist, where are the ethics and morality of the red supporters? It is actually shocking there isn't a massive retreat now from the entire red movement. I guess being a true believer is sticky. You can rationalize anything. But I still don't understand. I could never rationalize murderous Burmese generals or any Thai government that behaved like them.

As I said before, I feel the entire red shirt movement is permanently damaged and tainted. That doesn't mean that a NEW movement that has moral credibility can't be started, one that condemns Thaksin, condemns terrorism and violence of any kind, and also stops the Maoist class war rhetoric, going for a more reasoned approach.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Jingthing

[bubba]

It does appear that live coverage has ceased on broadcast TV...could be a blackout.

You can still see live video from UDD at http://uddthailand.com. They are mostly showing the stage at Ratchaprasong (Jatuporn is on now again), but with some cutaways to other live video.

ASTV have ongoing live video coverage at http://www.astv-tv.com/new1_broadcast.html

[yoshiwara]

THE NATION: Today's battle will be decided at Makkawan Bridge (near UN building), where troops have been pushed back coz winds obstruct tear gas used

All that hot air from the red platform did have a use after all.

[humfurry]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The government needs to start addressing the concerns of the poor rural Thais.

2 years ago they had serious concerns, they were ignored.

1 year ago, they were still ignored, we had the "Black Songkran".

Now, they're still being ignored, we're having riots again.

How about the government addresses the concerns and problems of the poor rural Thais for a change?

You can clear people off the streets, but the problem won't go away.

And the problem isn't Thaksin. Thaksin is a part of the engine of the red shirt movement, nothing more.

1 year ago the government was 3-4 months in office and

fighting against a world wide economic crash that the PREVIOUS PPP

government was to brain dead to even see coming. So made it worse.

Once Abhisit and Korn got past preventing the metldown, they DID started

dealing with issues of Concern for Issan people.Things being done,

Thaksin's minions did the best they could to prevent being heard about up country.

We're having riots because Thaksins Perception Management crew has made it SEEM,

that this is the only way to move forwards. This demonstration happend right after

Thasksin's money went bye bye. No coincidence.

Touche!

[ChiangMaiThai]

Download anchor free or similar and watch rachaprasong live at uddthailand.com. For all these news updates that make it sound like the govt. is taking control, they red shirts are still on stage and there are still a good 70,000 people listening. Really want to see how they break up 70,000 people.

[animatic]

Ummm again in Parliamentary democracies governments can change without a new election. Small parties can realign and poof --- a new government. To suggest otherwise is simply a lie.

You used a plural, suggesting that changes of government without electoral approval are regular occurrences in democracies. Do you have any more examples of this than the one in Thailand in 2008?

Try Gordon Brown for one, Bib Netanyahu for another.

No new elections called when they took office.

Blair retired, Brown voted in by Mps.

Bibi's party came insecond, but the winner failed to get a coaltion with enough seats,

Netanyahu is PM of Israel with 2nd place minority party.

No newe election called... this could last till next election cycles, or fall and a new one come in.

This has happened in many countries...

A parliament is elected and and IF a party shows

enough leadership to quickly put together a new coalition

they form a government, if they fall and another can quickly do the same they can.

This can go on until either a vote of no confidence is passed calling for a new

parliament to be elected, of the ruling PM dissolves the parliament.

If neither of these options happen then an election is called.

Essentially if a coalition can claim enough MP's they can rule.

Didn't Brown just call for early elections?

Yes, certainly did, 1+ year LATER, and one month BEFORE

the parliaments regular term would have mandated the same election.

So he just picked a better moment to back for the Torys schedual.

Still doesn't change ANYTHING I said, nor the comparison to here.

[anotherpeter]

Thaksin is the problem.

The red shirts should go home and GET INVOLVED in *politics*, not mob rule.

The people in Isaan should look at the corruption in their own back yards before they come to Bangkok to blame people here.

They should look at the corruption of their leaders, and after they have dealt with that, then they can come to Bangkok and complain about the corruption here.

How about increasing minimum wages for the poor? In Europe we spend more per day than these people make per month. That will help reduce corruption. Poor people take money and bribes because they don't have another way of making more money. How about giving them free health insurance so that they can visit good hospitals as well? They can't afford Bumrungrad. How about giving the old people an actual pension? They get no money when they're old.

Don't they have free health insurance now? Isn't there a pension now? Both bought in by Abhisit? (I think the pension was anyway.)

Minimum wages is a great ideal, but difficult to manage for the whole economy. Also won't make much difference to people with their own business (farmers) which is where a big part of the problem is. Getting rid of the corrupt middlemen would help the farmers to get better prices for their produce.

Better pay for police and a crack down on their corrupt practices would make a big difference to law and order in Thailand.

[otherstuff1957]

The government needs to start LISTENING to the poor rural Thais, not just ignore them and tell them to shut up and go back to their farms. These times have ended 100 or 200 years ago in Europe, and they're ending now in Thailand.

I think that you will find that many of anti-Red posters here will agree with this statement. The opposition to the Red movement is (mostly) not against those goals, but against the corrupt, violent thugs who form part of the Red leadership and the perception that Thaksin is using the Red movement for his own purposes.

If the Reds were more convincing as a grassroots democracy movement, they would have more support here and probably more support among the people of Bangkok (aside from the Taxi drivers). Have you noticed that the University students are largely uninvolved in the Red movement? They can tell the difference between a genuine leftist movement and one that is staged for the benefit of an exiled billionaire.

I don't know what the results of the next election will be, but I suspect that the PT party will be about where they are now: with 30 - 40% of the MPs in Parliament. If so, the power to form the next government will be given to the likes of Newin and Banharn again and the cycle of corruption and nepotism will continue.

[Jerrytheyoung]

THE NATION: At 4:18 pm, Thai PBS reported troops were retreating from Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge to the area in front of Education Ministry.

THE NATION: Situation reportedly tensing up in Chiang Mai where reds surround provincial hall.

Bangkokpost: Red threatens to seize Khon Kaen city hall

Last infos....

[chadintheusa]

In a democracy its the party that comes in power that do so thru a general election . What the PPP did does not excuse whatsoever what the dems did or in this case did not . If the dems were so sure about winning general elections why they did not call for it ?

One reason put forward for no election about this time (mostly before PPP disolution) was that most of the parties couldn't afford another election. Thai elections are very expensive.

Voting in an election merely determines who fills the seats in the parliament. The party with the most seats or the coalition of parties with the most seats determines who is prime minister. This is a fluid situation and can change for various reasons without new elections being held. It happens all the time. Of course the people on the non governing side will always whine how it isn't fair. But they are bound by the same rules should they get elected. Having multiple elections where the outcome is marginally different is a huge waste of funds. Protesting to oust the current government isn't particularly democratic. Less than 2% of the population is in the streets, surely not enough to justify over ruling the other 98%'s democratic rights.

[lannarebirth]

Simply sweeping protesters off the streets won't help solve anything. They will simply regroup and come back. Abhisit needs to fix the toilet that's leaking water, not just clean up the water. It will leak again.

Can't fix a leaky toilet with out draining the tank first.

Shut off the water source sand give it a flush...

Then you can address the leak.

This is for want of a more tasteful metaphor what we are seeing today.

Ahaa..now I understand this whole situation much better. This is about plumbing and there I was thinking it was politics....and everybody ranting and raving around

in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail. Farang's don't understand Thai plumbing at all... Is that what all that water was squirting all over the redshirts a while ago??

I think the only plumbing leak this is about is the leaking of Thaksin's forfeited assets into government accounts this week and next. Great diversion if he's planning on someone "pushing the wrong button".

[monkfish]

Mmmmmm all live coverage seems to have gone and all tv stations back to soaps etc.

Nationchannel is only reporting foreign news now.

News blackout?

W

Seems to be that way... add fake TV to the List of Fakes.

Fake Government too!

[anotherpeter]

Download anchor free or similar and watch rachaprasong live at uddthailand.com. For all these news updates that make it sound like the govt. is taking control, they red shirts are still on stage and there are still a good 70,000 people listening. Really want to see how they break up 70,000 people.

70,000 ???

There are more people there than have been at most of their rallies (except the first day?).

Anyone close to the scene that can verify these (inflated?) figures?

[pimay11]

I am waiting for previous red supporters to post here to tell us they have changed their mind, and no longer support the reds, because of their escalation to terrorist tactics. That is the honorable thing to do when you have made a mistake. Still waiting. Those of us who saw the danger of the reds from way back will RESPECT you for this. Why can't you do it?

The only terrorists are the one perverting democracy and their lapdogs

Speaking of lapdogs!

[rainman]

At 4:18 pm, Thai PBS reported that troops were retreating from the Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge to the area in front of the Kurusapa Hall of the Education Ministry.

The station explained that the wind blew the tear gas back to troops, causing them to be unable to maintain position at the Makkhawan Bridge.

Could someone PLEASE explain to the army that you don't shoot gas AGAINST the wind?