Thai Protesters Remain Defiant In Bloodstained Bangkok

[way2muchcoffee]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

Right - so much for the great leader Abhisit, as he cowers in his bunker. How brave he is, and what an example he sets!

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

Go on and continue with the hate speech. It really does seem that if we here at TV were Thai there would be one heck of a lot more death, mayhem, and destruction of Thailand. This hate comes from all sides in the debate.

Edited April 12, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Oberkommando]

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

He couldn't be more distant from the rural masses; a son of privilege born in the UK to a well off family, educated at the best schools and universities until in his twenties, then back to Thailand to enjoy a life of privilege and opulence.

At least Thaksin had a few years in poverty when his dad squandered away the family fortune when he was young so they at least feel he has some sympathies with them, a fact he played on particularly effectively when he was participating in politics. He also regurgitates the mantra that he was a 'self made man', while not necessarily true, it is lapped up by the masses.

[OJAS]

The most important is not to find who has shot the first. It is understandable that it the heat of action, young conscrit soldiers are not reacting as matured experienced Anti-riot Forces.

Ther is a situation which is dangerous for the sake of the Country. Falcons on both sides have fuelled the conflict. There are some deep reasons to this conflict, a lot more complex that pro or anti Takhsin.

Today the first priority is to defuse the situation and bring PEACE to people. The Falcons have to go back to their nests and meditate ....

And these deep reasons, IMHO, stem from the fundamental belief in Thai culture that saving your face is the be-all and end-all of life, regardless of the consequences. Until such time as both sides on the political divide are willing to bite the bullet on this (no pun intended), the future for Thailand in both the long and short term really does look extremely bleak, indeed.

The ideal solution, in the short term at least, would be some government of national unity formed of a grand Democrat/Puea Thai coalition. In the real world of Thai politics, unfortunately, pigs are more likely to fly.

A military coup would be no answer, as events following the 2006 coup have amply shown. In any event, I question whether the Army would now be capable of holding on to power following a coup, after all those knackered personnel carriers I saw on the BBC news this morning. According to the BBC report, these had been abandoned when the Army beat their hasty retreat from the scene of the action on Saturday night.

[brahmburgers]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

Right - so much for the great leader Abhisit, as he cowers in his bunker. How brave he is, and what an example he sets! It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

Just as all movements need a bad guy, so do the Reds. Abhisit is the #1 person standing between Thaksin and his return to power and amassing obscene quantities of riches. It wouldn't matter which non-Red were in the PM's seat right now, ....that person would be painted as the enemy by the Reds.

So then clockwork chooses to find as much fault with Abhisit as he can. That's your prerogative, and you're allowed to do that in Thailand. In Burma or China you'd be rounded up and locked up for 12 years.

Abhisit doesn't portray himself as a tough top commander. That's not in his job description. Granted, he does control the security forces, and there's been a lot of 'on-the-job-training' in the past days. Indeed, he's not the ideal leader in some peoples' views. Yet, who would you rather have as PM, one of the current Red Shirt leaders? I don't know which is scarier thought, Thaksin back in the PM's seat, or one of the current Red leaders. I wouldn't want any of them in charge of a dog racing track, let alone guiding the country.

If you so choose, you can find fault with anyone. You don't have to like Abhisit, but I and many others do. He's kept a cool head in situations where many others (myself included) would have taken stronger action. If you want to fault him for being too cautious, that's your prerogative. I just hope he weathers this storm and continues on his full term in office, but I fear he's been bullied in to calling elections early. He'll probably succumb to mob rule. Remember, even at their strongest, the Reds were only able to bring 100,000 to any rallies. That's 1 out of 650 Thais.

[scotbeve]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

one example of the thai army firing into the crowd can be seen at 1.25 in this video aired on French tv

in fact there are two examples, one just before 1.25 and one just after it

Were they also dragging away dead or injured soldiers before that? How would you expect them to respond after being blown up by a grenade?

I'll give Abhisit his due here and put the onus not on him, but the guys that are really in charge.... Re: Suthep / Newin and someone way up the ladder who wears military green (sometimes). BTW - a lot of the "soldiers" were kids in the Thai "ROTC" - fact. Using kids in some of the front line. Rumor - and I mean rumor only - has it there were "misfires" within a camp...perhaps an M79 went off by mistake.....

I would expect them to react the way they did Peter, but then i would also expect them to admit to acting this way rather than deny they acted this way.

We have even had the government denying the use of tear gas despite vast evidence to show that they did. If you do something admit to doing it, if you deny it the obviously it was something you should not have been doing.

On one hand we have the murderous abhisit promising transparency while on the other hand we have him and his government denying the use of live ammunition, tear gas etc. Luckily for us we don't have tpo rely on the biased reporting of the thai news for our information, we have the ability to see exactly what went on from both sides.

[brianb1944]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who got what wrong, how come you are privy to the workings of the Government at the highest level? you been listening to too much Red TV

[brianb1944]

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

A big part of the issue is that it appears that a rather large amount of Thais only worked out how Thai society REALLY works recently too.

This may be the start of the end of patronage and entitlement.

And if you think I am asking for some kind of civil war, I am not, I am just commenting that if you don't think the events of the last 5 or 6 years are partly because the rural areas became politically more aware and astute, I disagree.

That is an astute and apt observation, current events seem to be reflecting the political evolution given the occasional revolutionary hurry up

[jayboy]

He couldn't be more distant from the rural masses; a son of privilege born in the UK to a well off family, educated at the best schools and universities until in his twenties, then back to Thailand to enjoy a life of privilege and opulence.

Throughout history there have been politicians who had privileged backgrounds but served and were supported by the working class.Abhisit's problem is not his excellent education (surely that's a good thing, isn't it) but his lack of political sexiness, that spark which intrigues and amuses.M.R Kukrit had it.Chuan doesn't.Cameron doesn't.Boris does.It's not about background.It's about astute political marketing and personality.

[brahmburgers]

He couldn't be more distant from the rural masses; a son of privilege born in the UK to a well off family, educated at the best schools and universities until in his twenties, then back to Thailand to enjoy a life of privilege and opulence.

Throughout history there have been politicians who had privileged backgrounds but served and were supported by the working class.Abhisit's problem is not his excellent education (surely that's a good thing, isn't it) but his lack of political sexiness, that spark which intrigues and amuses.M.R Kukrit had it.Chuan doesn't.Cameron doesn't.Boris does.It's not about background.It's about astute political marketing and personality.

good observation. Those trying to find fault with Abhisit are barking up the wrong tree. Sure they can find fault with the man, just as people can find fault with anyone else if they so choose. Abhisit just happens to be the PM now, while a mob is clamoring for a change in leadership - so Abhisit in the firing line.

For those who belittle his upbringing or education. That's petty thinking. If those same people chose to like the man, they could use the same factoids about upbringing or education to bolster their support of him.

Let's look at how these key players manifest themselves, rather than quibbling about their upbringing - things that happened decades ago. Look at how Thaksin manifests. Look at how the Red leaders manifest. Then look at how Abhisit manifests. If you still think T and the Reds look better in comparison, then you and I don't agree. Simple as that.

[geriatrickid]

I think it is debatable how much the true agenda of the leaders of the Red Shirts is in line with the aspirations of the mass of their followers.

I don't agree with RB much, but he is quite right here.

The leaders have harnnesed several differing groups,

and tried to create a red siding rainbow environment to hide the true black color behind.

As opposed to Abhisit's group which is apparently feuding internally.

[hyperlemon]

I haven't been in Thailand long, so i dont know much about the situation

but can someone please give a clear defenition of what these 'red shirts' want.

as i understand at present they want. Parliment dissolution, democrasy, no corruption and Thaksin.

I'm having trouble understanding this as no corruption and democrasy are quite contradictory to Thaksin, aren't they?

and all these deaths and injurys is upsetting, the thais as i see them are peaceful people, but are now creating a voilent reputation for themselves.

[anotherpeter]

I have refrained from commenting so far mainly because the situation is so desperately sad it just doesn't give any pleasure to score political points.It is however worth pointing out that at this stage it simply isn't possible to attribute blame for violence (or initiating violence) to one side or the other.I have looked very carefully at the evidence that's available and much of it is contradictory or obscure.I suppose this is the "fog of war" factor but in due course a better picture will emerge.It always does.In situations like this it is extraordinarily difficult to prevent a spark spreading into a bush fire.

My sympathies are broadly red.However I would ask that those who share my sympathies (those who don't won't pay me attention) do not post attributing blame to the security forces who have generally done extremely well.The honest answer is that we don't yet know who is to blame and it will take time for a clear understanding to emerge.

I agree jayboy.

I saw an excellent quality video in the last couple of days showing when the situation escalated to bloody violence.

The army were standing there doing very little. The reds were dancing to their music. There was no antagonism between groups at that point.

And then, suddenly, a shot is heard. And then all hel_l breaks loose.

There is no way anyone could say where it came from.

There has been video of the army shooting at protestors (but this was being done while they were dragging some dead and injured soldiers to safety).

There has been video of men walking amongst the protestors with machine guns.

All one can say for sure, is that it is no surprise it has come to this. And it's a sad time for Thailand that it has come to this.

[ferd54]

Don't lose sight of the bigger picture in all this "who did what to whom first debate" -- the rural underclass has spent generation after generation under the heels of the elite in Bangkok. Who could blame them when all that pent-up anger comes to the surface?

Unfortunately getting a better chance at equal opportunities will likely have to come at the end of a gun barrel. The elite have had a century or more to do the right thing, but they didn't even try. The poor will have to prise the grip of the elite lose with force. They tried through the ballot box and the elite used the army, the courts and twisting the legal system to negate the results of elections the pro-poor candidates won.

What else is then left but violence?

[OzMick]

Increasing claims and TV pictures showing black-clothed men heavily armed and apparently shooting at both army and protesters. Why? Who would gain from this?

[thom22]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who is pulling the strings and craving the power for the red shirts? How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

-Remotely, Thaksin and locally the deranged leaders on scene.

-They have turned it into a disgrace.

-I still support the goals of the red masses but no longer can, in good conscience, support the insane inflammatory actions of their leaders. I can only condemn them.

-Despite it seeming a retreat, I think withdrawing and reforming later as a political force/party divorced completely from Thaksin and his Lieutenants is probably the best way forward.

-The government has it's own big issues as well.

-I think Abhisit has proven he is probably one of the few PM worthy politicians in this country.

-I don't think how he got there is right, but, he is there now. (lets just disagree w/o rehashing the argument please)

-I would prefer he remained PM rather than the list of horrible horrible choices that could replace him from the Democrats, the reds, or the army.

-I think he is one of the few who can possibly contain this firestorm which threatens to envelop the nation.

-I hope he can calm it down without further violence.

-I think one of the big steps towards this is getting out of the blame game and stating clearly all sides own blame in this drama.

-I hope he can keep the lid shut on the military coup aspirations and the aspirations of more radical semi-associated groups (such as PAD) to use this as an opportunity to rage their own war against the poor.

I agree

[neverdie]

I think it is debatable how much the true agenda of the leaders of the Red Shirts is in line with the aspirations of the mass of their followers.

I don't agree with RB much, but he is quite right here.

The leaders have harnnesed several differing groups,

and tried to create a red siding rainbow environment to hide the true black color behind.

As opposed to Abhisit's group which is apparently feuding internally.

Of course geriatrickid, just about every government on the planet would be bickering internally at this stage if they were placed in the same situation.

[ferd54]

Of course geriatrickid, just about every government on the planet would be bickering internally at this stage if they were placed in the same situation.

Remember that the 2009 Tiannamen crackdown in Beijing came after months of internal debate among the politburo as the protest gained strength -- and that was in China.

Of course there is going to be a wide range of opinion in the cabinet and possible inaction due to extreme anxiety. If the Tiannamen case is any guide, a significant period of time would elapse as the situation is studied and the will to act is gathered -- followed by a massive crackdown.

I'm not sure Abhisit has the stomach for such a crackdown, but he has tried his best to keep it from getting violent. The Reds must keep ratcheting up the confrontation -- they can't just go home now empty handed.

The path is indeed getting narrower -- with little space left to avoid the collision.

[lannarebirth]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

Edited April 12, 2010 by lannarebirth

[tonywebster]

I'll give Abhisit his due here and put the onus not on him, but the guys that are really in charge.... Re: Suthep / Newin and someone way up the ladder who wears military green (sometimes). BTW - a lot of the "soldiers" were kids in the Thai "ROTC" - fact. Using kids in some of the front line. Rumor - and I mean rumor only - has it there were "misfires" within a camp...perhaps an M79 went off by mistake.....

I would expect them to react the way they did Peter, but then i would also expect them to admit to acting this way rather than deny they acted this way.

We have even had the government denying the use of tear gas despite vast evidence to show that they did. If you do something admit to doing it, if you deny it the obviously it was something you should not have been doing.

On one hand we have the murderous abhisit promising transparency while on the other hand we have him and his government denying the use of live ammunition, tear gas etc. Luckily for us we don't have tpo rely on the biased reporting of the thai news for our information, we have the ability to see exactly what went on from both sides.

something seems to have gone wrong with your quoting, that part I have bolded was not written by me, can people be more careful when they quote others.

[anotherpeter]

despite 15 dead (no, they did not commit suicide or were killed by it's own side) and some 800 wounded, many of them critically and seriously, protesters do stay, because they are not payed to protest mob, but are motivated politically and are ready to die in defence of their deep convictions.

I did see one video where a red got his head blown off by someone at close range. It wasn't clear exactly where the shot came from but video leading up to and also after the shot offers some possible suggestion. It certainly didn't come from the military that they were fighting in the distance.

[elcent]

Increasing claims and TV pictures showing black-clothed men heavily armed and apparently shooting at both army and protesters. Why? Who would gain from this?

there are two distinct groups who would gain from this.

First and foremost - Thaksin

Secondly- The Yellow Cake

It's all about to cover up crimes, disrupt legal procedures by instigating even more serious crimes. It's a time game by using any and all measures by those two groups to drag justice away from their cases.

Haven't both repeatedly told us to resort to any means to achieve their goals.

As I stated before. Gov and justice failed to indict the yellow cake and that this will create more troubles which has to be paid for by common folks. Sad but true. The nation and peoples wellfare is not in the heart of these two groups mentioned.

[tonywebster]

despite 15 dead (no, they did not commit suicide or were killed by it's own side) and some 800 wounded, many of them critically and seriously, protesters do stay, because they are not payed to protest mob, but are motivated politically and are ready to die in defence of their deep convictions.

I did see one video where a red got his head blown off by someone at close range. It wasn't clear exactly where the shot came from but video leading up to and also after the shot offers some possible suggestion. It certainly didn't come from the military that they were fighting in the distance.

Maybe ballistics is not your strong point, but that kind of damage can be done at distance depending on the ordnance used, there is no evidence whatsoever from the video that this shot was from close range so stop trying to distort issues, it is just as likely to be from distance as it is to be from close range, there was a number of gunshots before the fatal one, all the shots sound the same, could be from distance, could be military, could be red shirt, could be 3rd hand, could be close by, could be 100 metres away.

[MellowYellow]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

"Enemy of the state"

What purpose does further inflaming the rhetoric and hyperbole serve?

The hotter and more exaggerated people make it, the harder it is to reach any sort of compromise or cooldown.

Next time you condemn the insane threats/rambles of the red leaders, why not stop and think if you help any cause (at least in the context of this discussion) by doing the exact same thing on the other side?

[animatic]

I do not take sides in this matter and just hope for peace, same as when the PAD were running amok, but you have a Govt. that states the reds were responsible for the fire fight,yet every video that i watch shows soldiers clearly firing into the crowd.

If the Govt. wants to retain some form of credibility, then they should at least come clean. It appears that both sides were responsible for Saturday's escalation, but then again if Thailand had a responsible Govt. that could actually govern this would not have been aloud to escalate for over a month.

I have refrained from commenting so far mainly because the situation is so desperately sad it just doesn't give any pleasure to score political points.It is however worth pointing out that at this stage it simply isn't possible to attribute blame for violence (or initiating violence) to one side or the other.I have looked very carefully at the evidence that's available and much of it is contradictory or obscure.I suppose this is the "fog of war" factor but in due course a better picture will emerge.It always does.In situations like this it is extraordinarily difficult to prevent a spark spreading into a bush fire.

My sympathies are broadly red.However I would ask that those who share my sympathies (those who don't won't pay me attention) do not post attributing blame to the security forces who have generally done extremely well.The honest answer is that we don't yet know who is to blame and it will take time for a clear understanding to emerge.

One of your more rational even handed posts.

[elcent]

to add on:

I think it was in in Udon Thani or somewhere nearby when red leaders got caught and sentenced within weeks for less serious crimes than PAD or Thaksin committed.

Double standard? It looks like!

[lannarebirth]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

"Enemy of the state"

What purpose does further inflaming the rhetoric and hyperbole serve?

The hotter and more exaggerated people make it, the harder it is to reach any sort of compromise or cooldown.

Next time you condemn the insane threats/rambles of the red leaders, why not stop and think if you help any cause (at least in the context of this discussion) by doing the exact same thing on the other side?

My intent isn't to inflame, just the opposite in fact. People keep chasing after whatever the latest media report says because that's how they've been conditioned. What they fail to do is THINK and put all the pieces together.

[ItsMeMike]

Apparently, some unknown b@stards shot at the Twin towers on Ratchada (opposite Carrefour) at 8:30 this morning, from a black van. I live only a couple of hundred meters away but didn't hear anything.

Sorry, only have Thai news article but you can use google to translate:

Brief Store Here (Thai)

[tonywebster]

to add on:

I think it was in in Udon Thani or somewhere nearby when red leaders got caught and sentenced within weeks for less serious crimes than PAD or Thaksin committed.

Double standard? It looks like!

I think 5 reds just got life for a murder in chang mai, the father of the yellow shirt activist. the law can move quick here if you wear the wrong colour shirt.

[elcent]

Apparently, some unknown b@stards shot at the Twin towers on Ratchada (opposite Carrefour) at 8:30 this morning, from a black van. I live only a couple of hundred meters away but didn't hear anything.

Sorry, only have Thai news article but you can use google to translate:

Brief Store Here (Thai)

it's in bkk post if some one to read it in English.

[animatic]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

It should be clear to any impartial observer that Abhisit is not a puppet leader. He is currently faced with an insurgency which not only wishes to overthrow Thailand's currently elected government but also seeks to change Thailand's system of government through violent means. He must turn to a divided and self interested military, whose job it is to defend the country from foreign based enemies of the state and they have shown no willingness to do anything but protect their own positions. He is surrounded by crocodiles on all sides yet still he tries his best to save the country.

It is important to understand the difference between an enemy of a presiding government and an enemy of the state. It is the latter group that this government is facing now.

Agreed this is an insurrection that just got it's marching orders, and some martyrs to drum up support.

It doesn't make it any less an insurrection and beginnings of civil war that SOME of the insurrectionists

believe they have reason for grievances. All citizens of all countries have grievances,

but most don't start civil wars. That isn't a march towards democracy, but from it.

Edited April 12, 2010 by animatic