Scooter Recommendations

[Johpa]

My daughter will be moving to Thailand next month for college and I want to get her a scooter. I have been out of the loop for scooters for at over 20 years since I bought an indestructible 125 Honda Dream back in the late 1980s. I hear the modern Dreams are not built the way they use to be. Is there a scooter out there with some of the old time durability characteristics of the older Dreams? Although the scooter will be mostly used around town, it will also be used to travel back home up into the hills (Chiang Mai) on the weekends so it should be able to handle some dirt roads and a few bumps. And it needs to be big enough (125cc minimum) to get fat Dad around on his visits when he hasn't rented a D-Tracker.

[jubby]

Why not get her a Dtracker

I don't know much about the new scooters either. I've got a 10 year old Honda Dream 125 , still my favourite . I've put knobbly tires on it so it usually only used off tarmac. I've got a 6 year old Automatic Yama Nouvo. been a real pig , always had problems with it and I do use a new Honda Click often which is quiet but something does catch the ground occasionally . It does seem to be about fashion and colour schemes with the new Scooters now. Won't she want to pick something herself ?

[juehoe]

I would recommend the new Honda PCX 125. It is an European-style "big" scooter with a lot of power and a stable chassis.

But it is not a cheap one: THB 70'000...

I bought it some weeks ago and I am very satisfied with it. My THai wife like it, too - even the PCX is quite heavy for Thai women.

[CMX]

The appropriate Honda (the brand here with the greatest following and greatest number of dealers - and best resale) in the class about which you request is probably the Wave-i, and you'd probably want the 125cc. It uses a chain, nowadays has fuel injection, and is regarded as being as sturdy and reliable as these things are. Electric start and a front disk brake are available.

I rented one for 5 months recently in Chiang Mai and have no complaints about it. I assume your daughter will not want a "Vespa" type scooter with a flat floor, or something with an auto transmission (and can deal with a clutch-free manual transmission). In any case, 110cc and 115cc bikes would not meet your own needs as, as they are not designed for pulling weight uphill.

I like the PCX suggested above, but your daughter might find it cumbersome, as it is wider and considerably heavier.

Most of these issues have been hashed about on this forum and other forums will reveal much to the searcher. Best of luck.

Edited April 14, 2010 by CMX

[ttakata]

Read up on the Nouvo Elegance here. It doesn't have the fuel injection but it's the most powerful automatic here and less money than the Honda. Get alloy wheels, spokes are junk. The NE looks thinner and nimbler than a PCX too. I've never ridden a pcx so I can't compare. The NE can store a full face helmet too.

[ClareQuilty]

Automatics are extremely trouble prone and most of them are relatively ungainly to drive compared to Dreams and the like. Alas you cannot buy a Dream new anymore, though you can still get Waves they aren't quite as nice. Up here in Isaan it is even extremely hard to find a used Dream (I've been told they mostly end up exported across the border), but a decent used Wave can be had for 15,000. Buy a good used Suzuki Smash, Kawasaki Kaze, or Yamaha Spark if you see one - they're 90% as good as the Honda, and tend to be quite a bit cheaper.

Personally I'm not much interested in driving four strokes, but the old small two strokes (Tenas, Tiaras, Belle Rs, etc) are getting so rare it is really hard to find them in decent shape.

Lastly I wonder if anyone remembers the Honda Nice - there is a shop in my town which claims to have new ones for sale, but they haven't been built in a few years to my knowledge. I could be misunderstanding the dealer, but anyway I guess they've sat on his floor since built. The Honda Nice was a great little bike - very similar to the Honda Sonic but without the troublesome engine.

[jackcorbett]

Automatics are extremely trouble prone and most of them are relatively ungainly to drive compared to Dreams and the like. Alas you cannot buy a Dream new anymore, though you can still get Waves they aren't quite as nice. Up here in Isaan it is even extremely hard to find a used Dream (I've been told they mostly end up exported across the border), but a decent used Wave can be had for 15,000. Buy a good used Suzuki Smash, Kawasaki Kaze, or Yamaha Spark if you see one - they're 90% as good as the Honda, and tend to be quite a bit cheaper.

Personally I'm not much interested in driving four strokes, but the old small two strokes (Tenas, Tiaras, Belle Rs, etc) are getting so rare it is really hard to find them in decent shape.

Lastly I wonder if anyone remembers the Honda Nice - there is a shop in my town which claims to have new ones for sale, but they haven't been built in a few years to my knowledge. I could be misunderstanding the dealer, but anyway I guess they've sat on his floor since built. The Honda Nice was a great little bike - very similar to the Honda Sonic but without the troublesome engine.

Where are your facts? "Automatics are extremely trouble prone" and "other manufacturers' bikes are 90 % as good as the Honda"?

I live in Pattaya full time where I drive a motorbike nearly every day. Owned a Yamaha Nouvo 115 c.c. Nouvo for three years and now had its successor, a 135 c.c. Yamaha Nouvo Elegance for nearly a year and a half now and my biggest problem was I had to replace a rear brake pad in the first bike for 200 baht. My pal Ross has now had his Nouvo Elegance for 2 to 3 years with no problems. My pal David has now had his Air Blade for about three years with no problems.

Just downloaded the Yamaha Elegance owners' manual in English and read Yamaha calls for a v belt change every 25,000 kilometers. The nearby Honda dealer told me Honda recommends a belt change every 25,000 kilometers as well. Honda tells me the belt costs around 1000 baht and from what people report here that's about what it costs. Okay.....that about covers the alleged "trouble prone" drive mechanisms of the automatics. Let's move onto the engines now. Any reason an Elegance 135 c.c. liquid cooled engine should be more problematical than a Yamaha Spark's 135 c.c. engine? Or a Honda Air Blade's 110 c.c. liquid cooled engine more trouble prone than a 125 c.c. Honda Wave's?

Let's move onto the electronics. Does a Honda Air Blade employ inferior electronic components to say a Honda Wave's?

It is true that Honda sells more bikes here in Thailand than Yamaha. However, most Thais come from rural areas. For the most part people from these areas are poor. When I recently went with my girlfriend to the village her family lives in, I discovered that EVERY member of her extended family who owns a bike owns a Honda 100 c.c. Wave. I'm sure the reasons are 1. They are cheap to buy and 2. They use less fuel than a 125 c.c. Wave not to mention an automatic and since they don't have the cash most of us have they buy the most economical machine that will do the job for them.

Let's now move onto a very practical point for those living in Thailand that I never thought of before and that I don't think has been mentioned here. I was just discussing bikes with the Thai chef who works at my favorite restaurant here in Pattaya Naklua. Just a few months ago the restaurant owner relocated his restaurant up the street a few hundred meters. He used to rent from the Prima House hotel and while he had his restaurant at the Prima House, Joe had FIVE Honda Waves stolen. Joe told me he now owns a Yamaha Spark because the thieves prefer Hondas because they can move stolen bikes to Cambodia very easily where they are much in demand. And speaking of stolen Honda Waves, my neighbor Gus had his Honda Wave stolen in broad daylight not far from the restaurant and our condo building. Joe further commented about his Yamaha Spark which he's now had for three or four years and which has obviously not been stolen, "It's very strong," meaning it's a lot more powerful than his Honda Waves.

I see no reason to believe that a Honda is built better than a Yamaha other than this being a myth in the eyes of a lot of uneducated Thais who don't know any better. In fact, I'd suggest that here in Thailand Honda is behind Yamaha. A 135 c.c. Yamaha Spark manual will walk all over a 125 c.c. Honda Wave. And in spite of many fine attributes of the new 125 c.c. Honda PCx there are no tie downs for strapping relatively large objects onto the bike that you find on Yamaha nouvos, Honda Waves, etc. There is no hook in front of the driver's legs that I use to carry up to 3 grocery bags on my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. And there is no kick starter one can use to start his bike with in case the battery fails.

Lastly one has to wonder why Honda decided to market a 125 c.c. premium priced automatic in the form of the 125 pcx when it already had the 150 c.c. HOnda SHi in other Asian countries such as Vietnam and it was about to market the 150 c.c. SHi model in countries such as the U.S. Why Honda didn't do a slight remake of the 150 SHi for Thailand or simply introduce it to the THai market is beyond me. When the competition is already selling a 135 c.c. bike for 53,000 baht it makes no sense to me whatsoever to introduce a smaller 125 c.c. automatic for 69,000 bike or whatever price 125 px's are now selling for. Also why Honda was so slow coming out with automatic bikes in Thailand when Yamaha was selling well its Nouvos and Mios for years beforehand is a complete mystery. Me thinks that Honda Thailand is behind in the learning curve and the only thing that keeps it ahead is the myth of Honda invincibility.

[VocalNeal]

Lastly one has to wonder why Honda decided to market a 125 c.c. premium priced automatic in the form of the 125 pcx when it already had the 150 c.c. HOnda SHi in other Asian countries such as Vietnam and it was about to market the 150 c.c. SHi model in countries such as the U.S. Why Honda didn't do a slight remake of the 150 SHi for Thailand or simply introduce it to the THai market is beyond me. When the competition is already selling a 135 c.c. bike for 53,000 baht it makes no sense to me whatsoever to introduce a smaller 125 c.c. automatic for 69,000 bike or whatever price 125 px's are now selling for. Also why Honda was so slow coming out with automatic bikes in Thailand when Yamaha was selling well its Nouvos and Mios for years beforehand is a complete mystery. Me thinks that Honda Thailand is behind in the learning curve and the only thing that keeps it ahead is the myth of Honda invincibility.

Maybe Honda PCX engine is an SH engine?

Why introduce PCX here when SH is already....... Maybe, just maybe PCX is made HERE. So is not subject to import duty.

With a quick search I couldn't find a 135cc automatic Thai scooter but Honda's are water cooled so they can have higher compression than air cooled competition, as such the get higher power per unit of displacement. It think Honda gets about 13ps whereas an air cooled 150 G-max is only 11-something. 135 Spark is only 11.5ps but torque is higher.

Why 125 and not 150. Fuel consumption? Keeping purse snatchers below 110kph? Who nows?

As for the OP's question. Take your daughter to all the dealers and let her choose. It will all be about colour anyway.

There is no hook in front of the driver's legs that I use to carry up to 3 grocery bags on my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. And there is no kick starter one can use to start his bike with in case the battery fails.

They are called a Curry Hooks you can buy them anywhere.

When was the last time you saw a car with a starting handle. I used to have an '86 Ducati it had no kick start. That was over 25 years ago.

Edited May 5, 2010 by VocalNeal

[Richard-BKK]

The Honda SH150i made in Vietnam is also free of import duty... All called ASEAN free-trade-agreement...

[jackcorbett]

Lastly one has to wonder why Honda decided to market a 125 c.c. premium priced automatic in the form of the 125 pcx when it already had the 150 c.c. HOnda SHi in other Asian countries such as Vietnam and it was about to market the 150 c.c. SHi model in countries such as the U.S. Why Honda didn't do a slight remake of the 150 SHi for Thailand or simply introduce it to the THai market is beyond me. When the competition is already selling a 135 c.c. bike for 53,000 baht it makes no sense to me whatsoever to introduce a smaller 125 c.c. automatic for 69,000 bike or whatever price 125 px's are now selling for. Also why Honda was so slow coming out with automatic bikes in Thailand when Yamaha was selling well its Nouvos and Mios for years beforehand is a complete mystery. Me thinks that Honda Thailand is behind in the learning curve and the only thing that keeps it ahead is the myth of Honda invincibility.

Maybe Honda PCX engine is an SH engine?

Why introduce PCX here when SH is already....... Maybe, just maybe PCX is made HERE. So is not subject to import duty.

With a quick search I couldn't find a 135cc automatic Thai scooter but Honda's are water cooled so they can have higher compression than air cooled competition, as such the get higher power per unit of displacement. It think Honda gets about 13ps whereas an air cooled 150 G-max is only 11-something. 135 Spark is only 11.5ps but torque is higher.

Why 125 and not 150. Fuel consumption? Keeping purse snatchers below 110kph? Who nows?

As for the OP's question. Take your daughter to all the dealers and let her choose. It will all be about colour anyway.

There is no hook in front of the driver's legs that I use to carry up to 3 grocery bags on my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. And there is no kick starter one can use to start his bike with in case the battery fails.

They are called a Curry Hooks you can buy them anywhere.

When was the last time you saw a car with a starting handle. I used to have an '86 Ducati it had no kick start. That was over 25 years ago.

I don't know either so that's both of us so it really doesn't matter. Trouble is, I don't think Honda knows either. It does not make sense to price a 125 c.c. automatic at 69,000 baht just to save a few bath due to better fuel economy over what it might get with a 150 c.c. engine. This is a premium priced piece of equipment and I think the guy who is willing to pay 17,000 baht more for a PCX over a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance is not too concerned whether he saves a few baht or not due to better fuel economy one way or the other. Besides the Nouvo is substantially lighter which is going to nullify the fuel economy disadvantage of its having a higher displacement engine.

[jombom]

For your daughter's sake, please choose a bike that will not start with the sidestand down.

There are far too many accidents caused by this glaring design fault.

[ttakata]

Automatics are extremely trouble prone and most of them are relatively ungainly to drive compared to Dreams and the like.

Personally I'm not much interested in driving four strokes, but the old small two strokes (Tenas, Tiaras, Belle Rs, etc) are getting so rare it is really hard to find them in decent shape.

Yes, I find your statement of autos being troublesome very ignorant or downright stupid. I knew a guy that rode his 49cc Honda Ruckus across America with no problems. I rode 100+ mile trips on mine and revved it to 10,000 rpm, no problems. My Nouvo Elegance has been carefree as well. The Japanese have been selling maxi scooters (250-650cc autos) with no problems since the mid 1980s and Harleys run belts. Clearly an auto/belt drive is very durable and stands the test of time. If you rode a manual bike without lubing the chain I bet it would break down faster than the belted automatic. So what's more maintenance prone and troublesome then?

Maybe up in Isaan they like the manuals still, but I see more new Clicks and Finos than new Waves around BKK. When I go to new bike dealers I see 4-5 times as many automatics on the showroom floor and if you look at the Thai Honda and Yamaha websites they offer more auto models than manuals. If automatics are so trouble prone as you think how can you explain their dominant success?

As for 2 strokes they are very maintenance heavy compared to 4 strokes and this leads to greater reliability problems. Sure they make a load of power but they need to be rebuilt much faster than a 4 stroke. I hear of many BMW 4 strokes doing 100,000+ miles with no rebuilds. You'll never find a 2 stroke with this many miles without several engine rebuilds. No manufacturer is still developing 2 strokes, its a dead technology.

[CMX]

Johnpa

No idea if you've already made your decision, but I wish too to oppose the idea that automatic scooters are trouble-prone. They use more fuel, but are easier to learn to ride. I hold the much disputed notion (here) that automatics are safer in heavy traffic - particularly for relatively inexperienced drivers.

In your place, I'd want to be as certain as possible that my daughter was aware of the risks involved in driving here, and always selected (if possible) less traveled roads and made it her business to see and be seen (reactions will be those of youth, happily). At first, I'd want her to practice a lot in safer situations. I have observed some fine driving by mature young women here, not stodgy but certainly more safe than some of the guys when they're driving alone, but locals have grown up with traffic conditions as they exist during their adult lives - and represent learning, this way or that.

Two-cycles are no longer sold here and have been off the market, mostly, for a long time. No question, at the cost of fuel inefficiency, maintenance (not very expensive, but these are old machines), not to mention spewing out relatively enormous amounts of pollution, they were cheaper to produce, weigh less, and put out more power.

[Johpa]

Johnpa

No idea if you've already made your decision, but I wish too to oppose the idea that automatic scooters are trouble-prone. They use more fuel, but are easier to learn to ride. I hold the much disputed notion (here) that automatics are safer in heavy traffic - particularly for relatively inexperienced drivers.

In your place, I'd want to be as certain as possible that my daughter was aware of the risks involved in driving here, and always selected (if possible) less traveled roads and made it her business to see and be seen (reactions will be those of youth, happily). ...

No issues with awareness as the daughter has spent significant time in Thailand and is aware of the craziness of Thai roads. Not to mention that dad has as much experience as anyone posting here, with daughter having spent many hours on the back of my bikes in all conditions.

It is only that I have not bought or even looked at scooters in well over a decade and I understand that the ol' Honda Dream, one of the best designed, most rugged, and most reliable two-wheelers I have ever seen, are no longer available and I am out of the loop of knowledge of the current scooters available, so I appreciate all the input. I actually prefer the semi-autos to the full autos as we live up in the mountains (daughter will often be commuting from town to home on the weekends) and the full autos often do not shift appropriately when driving on the steep and windy roads that sometimes are not paved.

[Kimera]

Automatics are extremely trouble prone and most of them are relatively ungainly to drive compared to Dreams and the like.

Personally I'm not much interested in driving four strokes, but the old small two strokes (Tenas, Tiaras, Belle Rs, etc) are getting so rare it is really hard to find them in decent shape.

Yes, I find your statement of autos being troublesome very ignorant or downright stupid. I knew a guy that rode his 49cc Honda Ruckus across America with no problems. I rode 100+ mile trips on mine and revved it to 10,000 rpm, no problems. My Nouvo Elegance has been carefree as well. The Japanese have been selling maxi scooters (250-650cc autos) with no problems since the mid 1980s and Harleys run belts. Clearly an auto/belt drive is very durable and stands the test of time. If you rode a manual bike without lubing the chain I bet it would break down faster than the belted automatic. So what's more maintenance prone and troublesome then?

Maybe up in Isaan they like the manuals still, but I see more new Clicks and Finos than new Waves around BKK. When I go to new bike dealers I see 4-5 times as many automatics on the showroom floor and if you look at the Thai Honda and Yamaha websites they offer more auto models than manuals. If automatics are so trouble prone as you think how can you explain their dominant success?

As for 2 strokes they are very maintenance heavy compared to 4 strokes and this leads to greater reliability problems. Sure they make a load of power but they need to be rebuilt much faster than a 4 stroke. I hear of many BMW 4 strokes doing 100,000+ miles with no rebuilds. You'll never find a 2 stroke with this many miles without several engine rebuilds. No manufacturer is still developing 2 strokes, its a dead technology.

You really sure ? I have a one owner Yamaha 2 stroke Tiaras 2000 model did 100,000 (hard) km before an engine rebuild. I love it !!

[ttakata]

You really sure ? I have a one owner Yamaha 2 stroke Tiaras 2000 model did 100,000 (hard) km before an engine rebuild. I love it !!

that's the most I've ever heard of on a 2 stroke, impressive. Still 100000 kms is far less than 100000 miles. If you look up stories of bikes with the most miles they exceed 100000 miles and they are 4 strokes. Nothing is impossible but I still think it's safe to say a 4 stroke will last longer than a 2 stroke before a rebuild is needed. Most 2 stroke bikes have short rebuild schedules recommended by the manufacturer in comparison to 4 strokes.

To get back on topic, it sounds like the OP should look at a manual bike because the small autos do bog down on the steep hills but with a manual bike you can just keep it in a low gear and keep speeds up. I'd look at Yamaha's Spark 135 or CZ1.

[jackcorbett]

To get back on topic, it sounds like the OP should look at a manual bike because the small autos do bog down on the steep hills but with a manual bike you can just keep it in a low gear and keep speeds up. I'd look at Yamaha's Spark 135 or CZ1.

You mean automatics lag on steep hills such as I found on Koh Samet? A picture is worth a thousand words and here are a few of a Honda Click automatic set up with dirt bike tires. There was no stopping it and do check the hills out in the pictures while keeping in mind that a camera has a tendency to flatten out hills.Koh Samet Honda click auto becomes a dirt bike

I'd take a 135 Spark anytime over a Honda Wave. However, neither has significant under the seat storage such as the larger autos have so one would need a basket although one can live with it having a basket right over the front tire does not provide good handling.

[JohnLeech]

For your daughter's sake, please choose a bike that will not start with the sidestand down.

Most important advice so far.

Take your daughter to all the dealers and let her choose. It will all be about colour anyway.

Best advice so far (without any doubt!).

[ttakata]

To get back on topic, it sounds like the OP should look at a manual bike because the small autos do bog down on the steep hills but with a manual bike you can just keep it in a low gear and keep speeds up. I'd look at Yamaha's Spark 135 or CZ1.

You mean automatics lag on steep hills such as I found on Koh Samet? A picture is worth a thousand words and here are a few of a Honda Click automatic set up with dirt bike tires. There was no stopping it and do check the hills out in the pictures while keeping in mind that a camera has a tendency to flatten out hills.Koh Samet Honda click auto becomes a dirt bike

I'd take a 135 Spark anytime over a Honda Wave. However, neither has significant under the seat storage such as the larger autos have so one would need a basket although one can live with it having a basket right over the front tire does not provide good handling.

I wasn't saying an auto couldn't get up a steep hill, I'm just saying its not as fast as a manual bike doing so; I suppose bogging down is relative. I did notice my Nouvo Elegance 135 bogged down going up that steep hill to the lookout point in Pattaya but if I had a Spark 135, I would have just dropped down 2 gears and flew up it. I think based on how the autos work, the variator and/or clutch pack aren't able to compress the belt as hard on a steep since its fighting all that weight so the bike's speed drops. We all know the autos are less efficient at transferring engine power to the wheel compared to a chain drive due to the inherent friction losses.

You're right the manual bikes have little to no storage, I tested the Spark 135 and CZ1 and although fast, pretty impractical for me. Even with the NE135's great storage space, I still have a Shad 40 topbox on mine so I can lock my helmet away.

I read your weblink, that's pretty cool. I agree with you on the pictures flattening out steep grades. Those look like 40+ degree grades to me which sounds low but that's pretty steep in reality. I've seen a Raider 150 with upsized dirt rims around BKK and it almost looked like a real dirtbike. A Click offroad, totally out of the ordinary, but glad to hear it works.

Good point on the kickstand, I've ridden off with mine down once and hit a speedbump so it upset the bike. I was only going 10KMH so no big deal but its still a flaw in the NE's design (and I'm just a dumbass).

Yep, maybe she'll end up picking a Scoopy, Jelato, or Fino since they're cute.

Edited May 6, 2010 by ttakata

[ClareQuilty]

Where are your facts? "Automatics are extremely trouble prone" and "other manufacturers' bikes are 90 % as good as the Honda"?

I didn't mean to offend, and in fairness my bias may be just due to the fact that I hate the way automatics drive. But I have owned a few automatics, and they were more troublesome for me than even my 10+ year old two strokes. Most of the automatics I had didn't exactly totally break down, they were just always making annoying noises, slipping, etc.

As for saying that the other brands were 90% as good as Honda, I meant to say they're nearly as good - I meant to recommend them. Most people seem to think they're crap - I find them pretty good.

...most Thais.. don't have the cash most of us have they buy the most economical machine that will do the job for them.

I don't know about you, but even though I have more money than the average Thai working class person, I have very little of the stuff (and certainly less than lots of my middle class Thai friends). My last three motorbikes have cost 4700, 5000, and 6000 baht each.

[ClareQuilty]

... No manufacturer is still developing 2 strokes, its a dead technology.

Yes, but its better than the newer technology. You make the common mistake of assuming things are getting better, when in fact they're doing just the opposite.

[ttakata]

... No manufacturer is still developing 2 strokes, its a dead technology.

Yes, but its better than the newer technology. You make the common mistake of assuming things are getting better, when in fact they're doing just the opposite.

Sorry for being harsh earlier. I didn't want to get into a debate but you make statements with no explanations backing them. I have to counter so newbies to bikes can get a fuller understanding of our opinions.

Advantages of the two stroke:

Fires once every revolution, giving it twice the power of a four stroke, which only fires once every other revolution.

Packs a higher weight-to-power ratio because it is much lighter.

Is less expensive to manufacture/sell because of its simpler design.

Can be operated in any orientation because it lacks the oil sump of a four stroke engine, which has limited orientation if oil is to be retained in the sump.

Disadvantages of the two stroke:

Faster wear and shorter engine life than a four stroke due to the lack of a dedicated lubricating system.

Requires special two stroke oil ("premix") with every tank of gas, adding expense and at least a minimal amount of hassle.

Heavily pollutes because of the simpler design and the gas/oil mixture that is released prior to, and in the exhaust (also creates an unpleasant smell).

Is fuel-inefficient because of the simpler design, resulting in poorer mileage than a four stroke engine.

Has a high-decibel whine that may exceed legal noise limits in some areas, depending on the product and local applicable laws.

I actually like 2 strokes too I've had five 2 stroke pocketbikes that I abused.

They were super fun and powerful but after 20-30 hours of hard running, they would lose all compression and end up in the dumpster.

No one needs a 193 hp BMW streetbike but its cleaner, cheaper on gas, and won't need as many piston rings and rebores as an NSR500 (not that you could buy one anyway).

If you're thinking of light bikes; sure you can get a new dirt only YZ250 2 stroke that makes 45-50hp and weighs 97kg but you could also get a 4 stroke street legal Husqvarna SM510R that weighs 109kg and has 60hp.

So if the 4 strokes these days are just as fast as the 2 strokes but cleaner and cheaper to run, how is this not progress?

4 strokes are light and powerful enough to exceed 99% of today's riders' needs there's no doubt in my mind they're better bikes to ride.

The only reasons I can see wanting a 2 stroke these days is you like to pollute the air, and like wasting money on gas, oil, and piston rings.

If 4 strokes never came along, things would be worse than they are and we'd all be breathing air like in Shanghai.

This is my hotel room there back in 2007.

Just because you don't see the pollution you create doesn't mean its not happening.

Still, if you love 2 strokes, check this engine out. It's pretty sweet although low on efficiency.

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

Edited May 7, 2010 by ttakata

[Fishenough]

All other points aside, these scooters are all greatly equal in comfort, speed and handling. A varied collection of a dozen scooters from 100cc to 135cc rode over 600 km yesterday and whether driving in traffic or mountain hills these bikes were tremendously equal to the conditions. And the resulting, afterwords condition of the riders. The new Nouvo with aftermarket exhaust could keep up to the older 100 wave, both experienced riders and the difference in performance were very slight over all the roads ridden. The bikes with gears being slightly faster up long hills, though the 135 automatics had a advantage on the flats - BUT nothing that couldn't be made equal with tucking on the bike.

Only significant differences was the Auto's were far thirstier and the drum brakes on Dream are terrible. All other items are quite equal.