Expat Retiree Cost Of Living--higher And Higher

[tropo]

I agree with the OP is some respect as I have lived here for 9 years and I have seen prices rise considerably.

A comparison with 9 years ago is ridiculous. Thailand was coming out of the SE Asian financial crises back then. The Thai baht had been pegged to the USD previous to this crisis which started in 1997 and when they let it float it plumetted against all major currencies. This made Thailand an extremely cheap destination until the baht started to slowly regain some ground over the last 10 years.

Anyone who set up shop in Thailand 10 years ago will obviously find things a lot different now. In the 4 years I've been here I've hardly noticed any increase in the cost of living. I don't drink alcohol or spend money on girls, so that's not a factor for me.

There're a lot of people having a whinge on here who seem homesick for England. Perhaps we're going to see a mass exodus.

Edited April 21, 2010 by tropo

[musiclover]

Yes you can live cheaper here then UK if you want but at a cost in other ways.

Less than half? No way!!

Your examples do not compute. You are not making any attempt to fit in where you are and that is your responsibility.

If you insisted in living in the most expensive part of London and driving an expensive car and eating in the best restaurants there would be no comparison at all and you are not going to get free English libraries and health care in a 3rd world country.

I find this a pretty incomprehensible reply!

I merely took issue with your statement that one can live here at less than half the cost of living in UK!

What examples dont compute? What does that phrase mean?

The 2nd para simply doesnt make sense nor is any implied meanig relevant!

Whose talking about luxury cars and restaurants?

The free libraries and healthcare are merely examples of differing expenses between Pattaya and UK for a retiree!

[Spoonman]

A Car here is very expensive and I mean a local built one NOT a foreign import. Running expenses are cheaper but initial outlay which must be factored into the total running expenses more than makes up for this.

I can buy (retail) A Ford Ranger XLT 4x4 dual cab $18,000 cheaper here than I can back home in OZ......how is is such a saving to be considered expensive ???

[Tejas]

A Car here is very expensive and I mean a local built one NOT a foreign import. Running expenses are cheaper but initial outlay which must be factored into the total running expenses more than makes up for this.

I can buy (retail) A Ford Ranger XLT 4x4 dual cab $18,000 cheaper here than I can back home in OZ......how is is such a saving to be considered expensive ???

The OP is talking about the cost of living in Pattaya.

The price of things abroad is irrelevant to the topic.

I have a 24 year perspective on the changes that have taken place in Pattaya-Jomtien.

Over the past 24 years the cost of living has increased substantially.........far more than inflationary adjusted pensions.

It is far more expensive, in real dollar (inflationary adjusted) terms, to live with the same lifestyle in Pattaya-Jomtien now that it was 24 years ago.

That seems to be a fact for many expats who have a long-term perspective on this issue.

If you have only been here five years, you really have no perspective on this.

[Spoonman]

The price of things abroad is irrelevant to the topic.

The person I quoted says vehicles here are more expensive, was merely pointing out they are not, my bad for straying off topic, what was the topic again, obviously an expat retiree does not purchase these so called "expensive" locally produced vehicles ............

[Chaimai]

Let me try a quick comparison of the key costs (in GBP):-

4wd vehicle UK 25,000 TH 15,000

3bed accom

with 140 sqm

retail area UK 2,000 TH 200

Fuel (litre) UK 120p TH 60p

Bottle beer UK 3 TH 1

Av local meal

for 2 with beer UK 30 TH 10

Female companion

monthly cost UK 1000 TH 300

Thailand seems to comparing pretty favourably to me.

[musiclover]

The price of things abroad is irrelevant to the topic.

The person I quoted says vehicles here are more expensive, was merely pointing out they are not, my bad for straying off topic, what was the topic again, obviously an expat retiree does not purchase these so called "expensive" locally produced vehicles ............

On this separate point alone I was always under the impression that Toyota and Hondas were indeed much more expensive here than the equivalent in UK . I cant speak for OZ!

If Im wrong I stand corrected.

[SoCa9346]

My first visit 8 years ago, spent several days looking at rentals as I do every trip in preperation for a possible long time stay. 8 years ago large suppy of nice mostly new studios for around 2500 bt, now it's closer to 7k and the baht 8 yrs ago was 40 to 1 to the dollar.

My current projected financial requirement to stay in PTY is 30k$'s yearly, I think just as important as the cost of living, maybe more so, is the exchange rate.

I'm living in the U.S. for less than that 30k primarily because my house is paid for, accomedations in So Cal are outrageous, the rest is about equal as I don't drink, but I'll make up for that entertaining the ladies.

Edited April 21, 2010 by SoCa9346

[sarahsbloke]

There is hardly any public transport outside of the major uk cities

If you live in central Pattaya then the baht bus is cheap, granted,but if you live outside as many do then it is almost essential to drive a car esp if you have a family!.There is no proper public transport.

I read extensively and can download everything I want for nothing over the internet (including Playboy, PC Gamer, the latest novels often before UK release)

What about recreation? Reading here IS expensive as there are no good local and FREE libraries and books are not cheap nor are magazines. Local brands rae not relevant here!

Perhaps thes items dont matter much to some!

I pay 630bht for a very good internet connection with a phone line thrown in, in the UK I paid 34UKP a month for a service at 1/2 the speed with strict "fair use conditions", I can donwload every TV programme I want over this same connection.

Internet and acceptable TV is also expensive and of poor quality. I pay £20 pm for a service not much better than dialup and the UK freeview TV stations in UK are in a different league to Cable or True over here.

I'm living here for less than half the UK cost (not that I could afford to live with a woman 1/2 my age in the UK), and that is with eating out about 10 times a week. I can't afford so many microwave meals as I was eating in my UK bedsit though.

Yes you can live cheaper here then UK if you want but at a cost in other ways.

Less than half? No way!!

For those of you who are still paying for entertainment media, you need to move with the times, music, games, movies, TV shows, books and magazines are all available very quickly and easily via peer-to-peer. Saying that I actually go out to the cinema far more than I ever did in the UK as it is so cheap (70bht) and has very nice air-con on these hot afternoons.

Last year when I was in the UK going out for an evening with a young lady would cost a lot more than 1000bht, her for that price I can eat, get paralytic and still have enough to go to a club (Hotshots) and have a bottle of whiskey and mixers (with the wife of course).

Please stop tying to convince everyone that going to the most expensive stip joint in Pattaya is a legitimate example of it being more expensive over here. We don't all want to drive a BMW full of prostitutes while eating fish and chips and drinking cans of Stella (well not every night anyway)

Edited April 21, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Zstarx]

For what it's worth, I bought a Toyota Hi Lux Vigo new 2 years ago in Pattaya. Three months ago I had a price for the same car in Australia and they wanted to charge me more than double what I paid in Patts.

[Phil Conners]

Cost difference for motor vehicles are almost all due to taxation differences.

[Ulysses G.]

Please stop tying to convince everyone that going to the most expensive stip joint in Pattaya is a legitimate example of it being more expensive over here. We don't all want to drive a BMW full of prostitutes while eating fish and chips and drinking cans of Stella (well not every night anyway)

Exactly!

[PhilHarries]

Long term view is that Thailand is probably going to get more expensive for western expats from most countries as Thailand and the region continue to grow whilst UK Europe and the US are generally on a slow and steady decline.

Of course, and this is the crux of the matter. Inflation is a world wide phenomenon and I'd bet the inflation rate in the UK has been a lot more than Thailand. Then there's the other effect of equalisation as a country developes. The more developed a country gets the nearer it gets to being on a par cost of living wise. That's why Malaysia is more expensive than Thailand.

So while you are affirming your support for the Red movement in their aim to raise the living standards of the rural poor just remember that cost of living will increase to support it. Your cheap retirement hidey hole ain't gonna stay cheap forever.

I have a 24 year perspective on the changes that have taken place in Pattaya-Jomtien.

Over the past 24 years the cost of living has increased substantially.........far more than inflationary adjusted pensions.

It is far more expensive, in real dollar (inflationary adjusted) terms, to live with the same lifestyle in Pattaya-Jomtien now that it was 24 years ago.

That seems to be a fact for many expats who have a long-term perspective on this issue.

If you have only been here five years, you really have no perspective on this.

The OP was about British retirees and I'm assuming that they are talking about the state pension which, although does rise annually, does not keep pace with inflation. Not that it matters as retirees in Thailand don't get the increases period. If it's private pensions then you pay in peanuts, you draw out similar.

As for your 24 years you obviously remember pre '97 crisis exchange rates. I can't recall the dollar but the GBP was between 35 and 40 to the pound and I remember on my first visit sitting in a gogo (as the OP focussed on this area) thinking "Jeez, beer at two pounds a bottle? Who the hel_l said Thailand was cheap?". Here we are 18 years on and beer in gogo's is still around two pounds a bottle (unless you go for the most expensive). Other costs are also similar in relativity so I don't think that costs have increased overall by that much. Sure your imported luxuries are getting more expensive but back in '92 they weren't there at all (so were dirt cheap ). So if you arrived in Thailand when it was 70 to the pound and set your budget accordingly, yes you are going to hurt.

It's not just retirees in Thailand who are feeling the pinch, the same goes for those who have set up in France and Spain. When you relocate overseas on a fixed income then inflation AND currency variations have to be factored in otherwise you are deluding yourself. Don't get into thinking that the rest of the world has to stand still just so your standard of living doesn't fall.

[musiclover]

I pay 630bht for a very good internet connection with a phone line thrown in, in the UK I paid 34UKP a month for a service at 1/2 the speed with strict "fair use conditions", I can donwload every TV programme I want over this same connection.

Internet and acceptable TV is also expensive and of poor quality. I pay £20 pm for a service not much better than dialup and the UK freeview TV stations in UK are in a different league to Cable or True over here.

I'm living here for less than half the UK cost (not that I could afford to live with a woman 1/2 my age in the UK), and that is with eating out about 10 times a week. I can't afford so many microwave meals as I was eating in my UK bedsit though.

Yes you can live cheaper here then UK if you want but at a cost in other ways.

Less than half? No way!!

For those of you who are still paying for entertainment media, you need to move with the times, music, games, movies, TV shows, books and magazines are all available very quickly and easily via peer-to-peer. Saying that I actually go out to the cinema far more than I ever did in the UK as it is so cheap (70bht) and has very nice air-con on these hot afternoons.

Last year when I was in the UK going out for an evening with a young lady would cost a lot more than 1000bht, her for that price I can eat, get paralytic and still have enough to go to a club (Hotshots) and have a bottle of whiskey and mixers (with the wife of course).

Please stop tying to convince everyone that going to the most expensive stip joint in Pattaya is a legitimate example of it being more expensive over here. We don't all want to drive a BMW full of prostitutes while eating fish and chips and drinking cans of Stella (well not every night anyway)

What is the relevance of the last point re strip clubs? Not one poster has mentioned this as being significant except you! Nor is the cost of a BMW full of prostitutes!

Your lucky re your Internet connection as I pay double that (TT&T) for a d/l speed of about 15kbp, actually slower than dialup. Of course I live way out on the Darkside ...

I merely disagreed with the guy who said it cost less than half of UK. I still disagree but clearly you dont

Each person has different circumstances so we'll leave it at that ...........

[sarahsbloke]

Off Topic

I'm in the rural hinterlands 20km out from ChiangMai (as given under my avatar). The cheapest TOT service gives me 80-95kbs apart from about 30 minutes of random dips in a 24 hour period, best service I have ever had.

[musiclover]

Off Topic

I'm in the rural hinterlands 20km out from ChiangMai (as given under my avatar). The cheapest TOT service gives me 80-95kbs apart from about 30 minutes of random dips in a 24 hour period, best service I have ever had.

Well I understand now why you can live so cheaply but this is a Pattaya forum not a Chiangmai forum!

Im not really sure why you are so interested in a place so disconnected to your lifestyle.

Yes you are indeed fortunate with your Internet connection. I wish I could say the same.

For 1050 baht Im d/ling at 16kbs right now with frequent dropouts!

[Spoonman]

For 1050 baht Im d/ling at 16kbs right now with frequent dropouts!

Are you in Pattaya ???

that's atrocious.

[Rimmer]

The topic is 'Expat Retiree Cost Of Living--higher And Higher' not internet speed !!

[gerry53]

Musiclover - re bookstore in Jomtien. Best value I found was on Soi Chayipreuk heading up from Beach Road to the Sukumvit about 1 km (or less) on the right hand side. It isn't huge but has a constant flow of books through it. You can buy used books 100 baht or exchange them for 50 baht. Also has books in other languages.

The Wednesday movies at the various cinemas for 60 baht was a great suggestion also, very inexpensive and a great way to keep out of the heat these days!

[musiclover]

Musiclover - re bookstore in Jomtien. Best value I found was on Soi Chayipreuk heading up from Beach Road to the Sukumvit about 1 km (or less) on the right hand side. It isn't huge but has a constant flow of books through it. You can buy used books 100 baht or exchange them for 50 baht. Also has books in other languages.

The Wednesday movies at the various cinemas for 60 baht was a great suggestion also, very inexpensive and a great way to keep out of the heat these days!

Thank you for that. I will indeed try there!

[witold]

It's actually cheaper to live in USA, Europe and Australaia at the minute compared to pattaya.

Not talking about bars or ladies. General everyday expences.

rolleyes.gif

Hate to break it to you, but you can buy a 2 or 3 story townhouse 30 miles from Washington, DC for as low as 75K. And if you get out of metropolitan areas, there's a ton of $120K-150K houses.

In the US, almost all goods are cheaper. Cars are cheaper. Supermarket food is cheap. Heck, there are people in the US who use so many coupons/discounts they get their food for free. Thailand imports and taxes everything and produces very few things. You can compare your local prices - if you can find stuff available to begin with - to Amazon.com prices. Even health care is very cheap in US because it is covered by health insurance for most people.

Restaurants? I guess if you call road side stands that rewash dishes in dirty water 'restaurants', then yeah, restaurants are dirt cheap in LOS. But have a look at some higher standard dining options in LOS and you'll find plenty of places that are quite expensive. For example, look at lobster prices all along the coasts - all more expensive than US. Sushi? Same price, etc.

Now what is cheap in Thailand is human labor. But there are only massages and taxi rides you can get...

I know that LOS is cheaper if you live in London, but you don't have to look to developing countries to bring costs down. You can move to the US and save nearly as much.

[gerry53]

Witold - you have a bad attitude about Thailand and a too "glossy image" of the USA. How can you compare a fun beach city like Pattaya with Washington DC and the surrounding ghettos? Now if you want to talk about oceanside real estate (rentals or sales) in Martha Vineyard, California or Florida then that's a fairer comparison. You can also get a house for less than $1,000 in the ghettos of Detroit? Some areas are desirable and some are not. You have to compare apples to apples.

Cars are cheap in the USA right now to stimulate the auto industry, much has been paid for by the taxpayer and will be seen later as national debt. I've eaten in many restaurants and sometimes they aren't up to your western standards. It hasn't done me any harm yet. The cheap labor in Thailand reminds me of the cheap labor in the USA when they looked the other way while millions of latino immigrants snuck (wink - wink ) in to fill jobs Americans would not take. In the 1800s it was black slaves that were the cheap labor.

If you think health care is so cheap in the USA I have a bridge to sell you. Health care and insurance industry lobbyists spend many hundreds of millions wooing political figures the profits are that great. Whether it comes from your pocket directly or through your or your employers doesn't matter - you pay one way or the other!

I don't think too many board members will head to to USA to seek retirement or save money, most come here for the good value, great weather, a pleasant lifestyle and adventure. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Thailand is relatively inexpensive and fun. I like the USA and don't mean to bash them but I am a realist.

[Barack]

It's actually cheaper to live in USA, Europe and Australaia at the minute compared to pattaya.

Not talking about bars or ladies. General everyday expences.

rolleyes.gif

Hate to break it to you, but you can buy a 2 or 3 story townhouse 30 miles from Washington, DC for as low as 75K. And if you get out of metropolitan areas, there's a ton of $120K-150K houses.

In the US, almost all goods are cheaper. Cars are cheaper. Supermarket food is cheap. Heck, there are people in the US who use so many coupons/discounts they get their food for free. Thailand imports and taxes everything and produces very few things. You can compare your local prices - if you can find stuff available to begin with - to Amazon.com prices. Even health care is very cheap in US because it is covered by health insurance for most people.

Restaurants? I guess if you call road side stands that rewash dishes in dirty water 'restaurants', then yeah, restaurants are dirt cheap in LOS. But have a look at some higher standard dining options in LOS and you'll find plenty of places that are quite expensive. For example, look at lobster prices all along the coasts - all more expensive than US. Sushi? Same price, etc.

Now what is cheap in Thailand is human labor. But there are only massages and taxi rides you can get...

I know that LOS is cheaper if you live in London, but you don't have to look to developing countries to bring costs down. You can move to the US and save nearly as much.

When I read this post I rolled off the couch and almost split a gut laughing so hard. Especially the last sentence. This post is all over the map; comparing apples and organges. Speaking as American, who owns property you can not compare real estate in suburbs and rural areas with large cities. Yes, real estate is cheaper now in America and there are many bargains but costs are still much less here in Pattaya. My condo in America has "monthly" homeowers dues of $300 (10,000 baht) and annual property taxes of 80,000 baht, and I don't even live in the classy part of town. Now compare that to my Pattaya condo taxes of 12,000 baht per YEAR and ZERO property taxes.

I have priced a Honda Fit in America and Pattaya and they are about the same. Only the foreign imports (BMW's, Mercedes, etc.) carry the outrageous price tags. Yes, western food is comparatively expensive here but that should be expected. And health care; you certainly can not be serious. Unlike myself, if you are one of the 40 million Americans without health coverage, you might be coming to a country like Thailand (or India) for the excellent and affordable health care. I have used hospitals, clinics and dentals services here in Pattaya and the total bill was often less than my medical co-pay back in America! And let's not even start talking about transportation costs.

[streetlife]

In the 4 years I've been here I've hardly noticed any increase in the cost of living.

6000+ Internet forum posts does validate your claim. I suggest you get out more.

[Ulysses G.]

The topic is 'Expat Retiree Cost Of Living--higher And Higher' not internet speed !!

Please moan about one subject at a time!

[David006]

S

If you don't like the high prices for imported good switch to local stuff. So many people in Thailand are like the 1970s Brits who went to Spain for their holidays and spent the entire time eating fish and chips and drinking Watney's Red Bladder sorry Barrel.

:D :D

"......oooh and I don't like the food here it's sooo greasy....but we have found this lovely little place in a backstreet that serves Watneys Red barrel...."

Methinks many POMEs on "holiday" away from their locale have chronic whinger-itus, "red neck/sote pil mentalty"..".too hot, too expensive, can't trust the locals, food not to their liking....blah blah...."

Could also be that many on TV are NOT here and wish they were ???...enjoy the ash guys!

[craigt3365]

You do really need to compare apples to apples. Washington DC ain't Pattaya. The US ain't Thailand. I moved here due to lower costs. No way you can say it is more expensive here. Sure, some things are more expensive. Wine, good steaks, eating at western restaurants. But excluding items like these, it is WAY cheaper here.

We ate right on the beach 3 days ago for 2400B for 7 people. Plenty of beer, shrimp, fish, mussels, fried rice with crab, etc. Stuffed...all while watching the sunset and being taken care of by the waiter. He filled our beer glasses when they were 1/2 empty...added ice...filled out water glasses constantly...laughed and joked with us. Try getting that kind of service at a seaside restaurant in the US. Never. And never for that price.

We love sushi...in Vegas, where I am from, it is crazy expensive. Here, we eat it every week.

Cars are expensive. That is just a fact...at least compared to the US.

Health care is dang cheap...and way more "personal" than in the US. I spent the past 5 years dealing with my father's illnesses. He had many. I have been in every hospital in Vegas. Most were very impersonal. And you hardly ever saw a doctor. I remember waiting until midnight trying to see a doc to get him released. We had been waiting since just after lunch...real service. He had full coverage...lucky him. The bills were outrageous. They would have been a fraction of the cost here. And in the end, poor doctor care is what got him...

My dentist here sings while she does her work. Fantastic. I had some work done at Bumrungrad. Fantastic service. US trained doc. And 1/3rd or less what it would have been in the US...I am self insured...no free health care for me...

For real estate, we live less than 1km from the beach. In a nice village, nice pool home. No way could I get that in the use for the same price. S. California is crazy expensive. Florida, Texas, etc., IMHO, all have their own issues that keep me from living there.

If you really want to live cheap in the US, RVing is the way to go. I did it for several years. Dirt cheap. But it got old living in a small tin box (even my 40 foot motorhome got small!).

In the end...living here is not perfect. Nowhere is perfect. But it is pretty darn nice. The best option I have found so far for the money. If I had more money, would I live here? Probably not. But I don't, so I prefer to live here!

Musiclover: Try this place for books. Have not been there, but looks good:

http://canterburytalescafe.com/pages/home.php

[Beardog]

Witold - you have a bad attitude about Thailand and a too "glossy image" of the USA. How can you compare a fun beach city like Pattaya with Washington DC and the surrounding ghettos? Now if you want to talk about oceanside real estate (rentals or sales) in Martha Vineyard, California or Florida then that's a fairer comparison. You can also get a house for less than $1,000 in the ghettos of Detroit? Some areas are desirable and some are not. You have to compare apples to apples.

Cars are cheap in the USA right now to stimulate the auto industry, much has been paid for by the taxpayer and will be seen later as national debt. I've eaten in many restaurants and sometimes they aren't up to your western standards. It hasn't done me any harm yet. The cheap labor in Thailand reminds me of the cheap labor in the USA when they looked the other way while millions of latino immigrants snuck (wink - wink ) in to fill jobs Americans would not take. In the 1800s it was black slaves that were the cheap labor.

If you think health care is so cheap in the USA I have a bridge to sell you. Health care and insurance industry lobbyists spend many hundreds of millions wooing political figures the profits are that great. Whether it comes from your pocket directly or through your or your employers doesn't matter - you pay one way or the other!

I don't think too many board members will head to to USA to seek retirement or save money, most come here for the good value, great weather, a pleasant lifestyle and adventure. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Thailand is relatively inexpensive and fun. I like the USA and don't mean to bash them but I am a realist.

Jerry hate to burst your bubble but you can get ocean front beach property on Kaanapali beach in Maui for the same if not less price than Jomtien. While the labor to build is quite a bit more you get much better quality. The real estate market is hurting & prices are dirt cheap. Kahalui you can buy land at $7000 an acre opposed to $70,000 for the equivalent in Rai.

[streetlife]

Methinks many POMEs on "holiday" away from their locale have chronic whinger-itus, "red neck/sote pil mentalty"..".too hot, too expensive, can't trust the locals, food not to their liking....blah blah...."

Could also be that many on TV are NOT here and wish they were ???...enjoy the ash guys!

G'day mate, tell me what's Botany Bay like this time of year? I hear it has lots of history and worth a visit just for the laugh.

[craigt3365]

Witold - you have a bad attitude about Thailand and a too "glossy image" of the USA. How can you compare a fun beach city like Pattaya with Washington DC and the surrounding ghettos? Now if you want to talk about oceanside real estate (rentals or sales) in Martha Vineyard, California or Florida then that's a fairer comparison. You can also get a house for less than $1,000 in the ghettos of Detroit? Some areas are desirable and some are not. You have to compare apples to apples.

Cars are cheap in the USA right now to stimulate the auto industry, much has been paid for by the taxpayer and will be seen later as national debt. I've eaten in many restaurants and sometimes they aren't up to your western standards. It hasn't done me any harm yet. The cheap labor in Thailand reminds me of the cheap labor in the USA when they looked the other way while millions of latino immigrants snuck (wink - wink ) in to fill jobs Americans would not take. In the 1800s it was black slaves that were the cheap labor.

If you think health care is so cheap in the USA I have a bridge to sell you. Health care and insurance industry lobbyists spend many hundreds of millions wooing political figures the profits are that great. Whether it comes from your pocket directly or through your or your employers doesn't matter - you pay one way or the other!

I don't think too many board members will head to to USA to seek retirement or save money, most come here for the good value, great weather, a pleasant lifestyle and adventure. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Thailand is relatively inexpensive and fun. I like the USA and don't mean to bash them but I am a realist.

Jerry hate to burst your bubble but you can get ocean front beach property on Kaanapali beach in Maui for the same if not less price than Jomtien. While the labor to build is quite a bit more you get much better quality. The real estate market is hurting & prices are dirt cheap. Kahalui you can buy land at $7000 an acre opposed to $70,000 for the equivalent in Rai.

My good friends just got back from a house hunting trip in Kaua'i. They did say the prices are way down. But everything else is crazy expensive. They told me of dinner at the local hotel (Sheraton?). Unreal what they paid. But, it ain't like eating at the pier restaurants in Baan Amphur, is it! 4-5 star compared to 1-2 star.