Worsening Crisis Pushes Thailand Towards Anarchy

[siampolee]

Consider this paraphrased account of a famous nation's demise:

The death of the nation was both violent and natural. The fatal agents were the organic disorders of the system. The government had proven incapable of solving problems: it failed to preserve domestic order or an effective defense; it discovered no way of reconciling local autonomy with national stability and power; and its love of liberty failed to interfere with its passion for empire and war. The class struggle had become bitter beyond control and had turned democracy into a contest in legislative looting. The legislature degenerated into a mob, rejecting all restraint, voting itself every favor, and crushing initiative, industry, and thrift.

Education spread, but thinly; it stressed knowledge more than character and produced masses of half-educated people. The old problem of ethics and morals found no solution in religion, statesmanship, or philosophy. Religious superstition spread even while science reached its apogee. The growth of knowledge secularized morals, marriage, parentage, and law, and the pursuit of pleasure prevailed. Public games degenerated into professional contests; the people, who had once been athletic, now became spectators, content to witness rather than to do. Sexual morality was relaxed, and human life was portrayed as a round of triviality, seduction, and adultery. . . . The nation had destroyed itself; it died of its own tyrannous anarchy.

What nation do these paragraphs describe?

It could be the United States of America, but it is not. These paragraphs come almost word for word from Will Durant's The Life of Greece where he describes the demise of Athenian democracy.

Or let's be honest.

Sadly it is the mirror image of the state of affairs in Thailand at this moment in time and the demise of what was once if not the actual leading nation in South East Asia it was at the very least one of the leading nation in South East Asia.

Edited April 27, 2010 by siampolee

[danc]

OK I have watched the CNN interview or the bit that is posted - see the live news today thread..

and noboby cares what my opinion is but me but.....

Abhisit doesn't believe his own spin; sorry, but he reminded me of one of my own UK mob, Tory or Labour - that sort of weasly politician that we get in UK who deny, prevaricate and, leave bits out in answers, stumble about but do everything but look confident or in control when they know they are on, shall we say, shaky ground. Humphreys or Paxman would have had him for breakfast or dinner respectively.

The very interview itself is an attempt to convey the Thai government message that this government is indeed legitimate, despite the world's scepticism, the interview actually opening with that very question of why do so many question your government's legitimacy. His reply says what he is programmed to say but the world has up to now not, I am afraid, bought it and for me, they are not going to be any closer to buying it after this interview. Sorry, but I am a media observer and that is what I observe...

[unclejunta]

it's terrible that the reds want the end of the monarchy .<br /><br />how could they advocate such a thing ?

maybe for the same reasons in Nepal? And further back in time China?

[TonyH]

Some here have very short selective memories...When Prime Minister Abhisit' wanted to go to Chang Mai just 3 months ago, the threat of violence was so great he had to cancel. Now for those of you that think Thailand is not falling into anarchy, then please explain when the leader of a country wishes to address his countrymen and you have the red shirts making serious enough threats against his appearance that he is forced to cancel? Is this democracy?Maybe the thing to do is the grant Issan independence, and let them have their own country? The could even grant their great patriarch Thaskin citizenship that way. With their black shirt guards, great bastions of learning, I am sure they could show the way to really run a country.

I agree. But include the North as well. Thaksin will become life long President of this new country and make it prosper. LONG LIVE PRESIDENT THAKSIN!

Or- The Thais might have to get used to a salute with the right arm extended forward and a click if the heels.

Or- Perhaps they should call him The Great God-Emperor Taxsin Ruler of Heaven & Earth.

Or- Hale Caesar the Omnipotent one

Or- Perhaps as I do Evil Scumbag

[bangkoklight]

It's the sort of thing that Thaksin sued people for.

Wasn't it a Yellow supporter here that said the Reds can't be on the streets just because the Yellows besieged the airport?

And now the Yellows are bringing out the slander card just because Thaksin sued people for slander? LOL! Is there any structure and logic to the Yellows' arguments?

[bangkoklight]

Sealy, you complete and utter moron, are you really this ignorant??? Ah well, here's your evidence:Thaksin the killer of thais

This was done by you're beloved and "democratically" elected Mr. T, who is soooo upset about the violence of this government towards the innocent red shirts. I simply can't understand that anybody in their rightful mind would want to follow a dangerous idiot like Thaksin.

So again then RockyBeerbelly, why is this killing relevant to the current political situation? When have the PAD ever raised this issue at their protests and when have they ever tried to bring this case to a court? Neither side is interested in this and it's not on the current agenda.

[clockworkorange]

@Clockwork Orange. Please note you are typing in an environment where, for example an allegedly humourous misspelling of a public figure causes the moderation team a fit of editing frenzy. So your submission that 'lampooning.. is a vital part of any democracy', is not the case in TV land.

The other point is you are so wrong. Abhisit is a politician, so expecting consistency is foolish. After all I recall how enthusiastic any opposition politician is for transparency [say a freedom of information law] who upon arrival at the ministerial desk has a Damascene conversion.

Regards

On your first point I disagree. TV has a set of rules that are there to promote debate within certain guidelines, within the law and without the use of vulgarity. Nowhere in those guidelines do I see any rule that forbids lampooning a politician.

Now on to your second point, to which I entirely agree. Most politicians, when they remain in power too long, become corrupt and attempt to hide their wrongdoings by concealing the truth and by becoming coercive toward their detractors. We see exactly the same in the western world, and in governments the world over. This unfortunate trait of human nature - succumbing to temptation - is precisely why we need a democratic system, whereby the electorate can throw politicians out of office once they have exceeded their moral expiry date. It always takes a popular vote to do that, since as you correctly allude the politicians themselves would never go otherwise, having deluded themselves that they are infallable. This is why the task of removing politicians should be left entirely to the electorate, not to the army, and not to a minority group. Meddling with the wishes of the electorate 'for the greater good' always has the opposite effect in the long run, as we are now seeing in Thailand.

[whybother]

It's the sort of thing that Thaksin sued people for.

Wasn't it a Yellow supporter here that said the Reds can't be on the streets just because the Yellows besieged the airport?

And now the Yellows are bringing out the slander card just because Thaksin sued people for slander? LOL! Is there any structure and logic to the Yellows' arguments?

1) I'm not a yellow supporter.

2) I didn't say that anyone should be sued for anything.

I pointed out that "we are forbidden to criticise the government" is not something that Abhisit is doing, but is something that was done by the posters hero, Thaksin.

Edited April 27, 2010 by whybother

[danc]

It's the sort of thing that Thaksin sued people for.

Wasn't it a Yellow supporter here that said the Reds can't be on the streets just because the Yellows besieged the airport?

And now the Yellows are bringing out the slander card just because Thaksin sued people for slander? LOL! Is there any structure and logic to the Yellows' arguments?

Yup, the two wrongs don't make a right polemic, but also suggested that the current media censorship is acceptable because it was far worse under Thaksin. I don't even support the Reds but the woolly arguments given, left, right and centre are fun to point out - hereby laying myself open to the flames!!!!

Edited April 27, 2010 by danc

[jcbangkok]

THE NATION: Thaksin was warned by the Montengrin foreign ministry not to interfere in Thailand: a local newspaper reported.

THE NATION: Neighboring countries were putting pressure on Thakisn, as a Montenegrin citizen, NOT to interfere or to encourage protests in Thailand.

THE NATION: "But Thaksin - remained deaf to their warnings", the local paper said. It also now calls him "richest Montenegrin"

[whybother]

Sealy, you complete and utter moron, are you really this ignorant??? Ah well, here's your evidence:Thaksin the killer of thais

This was done by you're beloved and "democratically" elected Mr. T, who is soooo upset about the violence of this government towards the innocent red shirts. I simply can't understand that anybody in their rightful mind would want to follow a dangerous idiot like Thaksin.

So again then RockyBeerbelly, why is this killing relevant to the current political situation? When have the PAD ever raised this issue at their protests and when have they ever tried to bring this case to a court? Neither side is interested in this and it's not on the current agenda.

It could be relevant because of the reds desire to bring Thaksin back.

The PAD exist because of Thaksin. Therefore, any protest by the PAD is a protest against Thaksin's corruption and his corrupt policies while PM.

The PAD and the Reds are opposite sides of the same coin.

They both represent minorities, they both ruined the Thai economy, they both want their own version of "democracy" without understanding what democracy really means.

[clockworkorange]

OK I have watched the CNN interview or the bit that is posted - see the live news today thread..

and noboby cares what my opinion is but me but.....

Abhisit doesn't believe his own spin; sorry, but he reminded me of one of my own UK mob, Tory or Labour - that sort of weasly politician that we get in UK who deny, prevaricate and, leave bits out in answers, stumble about but do everything but look confident or in control when they know they are on, shall we say, shaky ground. Humphreys or Paxman would have had him for breakfast or dinner respectively.

The very interview itself is an attempt to convey the Thai government message that this government is indeed legitimate, despite the world's scepticism, the interview actually opening with that very question of why do so many question your government's legitimacy. His reply says what he is programmed to say but the world has up to now not, I am afraid, bought it and for me, they are not going to be any closer to buying it after this interview. Sorry, but I am a media observer and that is what I observe...

Interesting clip - having had so much practice in saying that his government is legitimate, I thought Abhisit would do a much better job. But, but like you say, he does come across as awfully hesitating and lacking in conviction.

[lazurus]

Since the reds can't seem to get over it, if they leave Rajaprsong I'm sure the yellows will agree to leave the Airport. I'm sure that in 2 years time we will see that any court cases against the current protest leaders will be dragging on and on with no end in sight. Once people put down their bamboo spears and go home there will be an election. ThaiDemocracy, now everyone can vote.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Thaksin had 6-years to start or implement these things. And do you think the reds are too stupid to know what is good for them? They are not asking for any of these things or have eluded to wanting anything of these things in their year+ aggressions.

<snip>Abhisit = 16 months = insuficient results= partisan leadership, ignoring 42% of the polpulation, focusing only on Bankokian Upper/Midddle Class

You really could not be more wrong. In fact policies introduced, and passed through the house whilst most have been transfixed by the red theatre have been expressly designed to create a better environment [political, fiscal, educational, health] for ALL Thais irrespective of political allegiances. Interestingly these policies do have a negative impact for those who want the status-quo-ante, such as those who through market exploitation have gathered to themselves fiefdom like powers. This government is trying to be a government for all Thais [recall PM Thaksin's comment about why should he help 'the south' since they did not vote for him] however, I do despair of the PR operation of getting these facts out into the public conscious.

For example the government's new farmer price support scheme has ensured that over four million farmers nationwide receive fair prices for their produce. However, it has faced fierce opposition from millers who were the chief beneficiaries of similar schemes under Thaksin. Those were designed to benefit those who supported [and to a degree mobilised] TRT, not the individual farmer. One of the core issues is how produce is managed, in most case through monopolistic top down operations. This is the real reason for the 'always poor' farmer, not indolence, but UDD which has close alliances to these operations, will strive to ensure this truth does not make it on to the airwaves. As another example the Finance Ministry's push for a new land tax, which was approved in cabinet approved a week or so ago, will over time structurally do more to address issues of economic inequality than Thaksin's populist handouts, especially since it will not push individuals into the welcoming arms of the illegal money lenders [who also are noted supporters of UDD]. Does the timing of this upsurge in activity have anything to do with the surprisingly effective push instigated by this government against these lenders?

Regards

it is the reason why the Farmers are currently in front of the 11th Infantry requesting that the rice price is raised to 12,000TBT/Ton ?

[clockworkorange]

THE NATION: Thaksin was warned by the Montengrin foreign ministry not to interfere in Thailand: a local newspaper reported.

THE NATION: Neighboring countries were putting pressure on Thakisn, as a Montenegrin citizen, NOT to interfere or to encourage protests in Thailand.

THE NATION: "But Thaksin - remained deaf to their warnings", the local paper said. It also now calls him "richest Montenegrin"

And THE NATION was today quoting anonymous web surfers and an acclaimed 'scientist' (whose esteemed name returned not a single hit on Google) as credible sources of forensic evidence to support the claim that recent photos of Thaksin were doctored.

Does THE NATION still hire an editor these days to verify sources of information, or are its pages just a yellow free-for-all?

[jcbangkok]

FYI from another thread.

Just a quick notice before everyone gets their teeth into this, given the highly inflammatory nature of some posts and posters in the News forum, we are instituting a zero tolerance policy with regards to posting inflammatory comments, comments advocating violence, trollish comments, and flames. You will receive an automatic posting rights suspension for this behavior in the News forum. Bear that in mind when posting.

[hammered]

OK I have watched the CNN interview or the bit that is posted - see the live news today thread..

and noboby cares what my opinion is but me but.....

Abhisit doesn't believe his own spin; sorry, but he reminded me of one of my own UK mob, Tory or Labour - that sort of weasly politician that we get in UK who deny, prevaricate and, leave bits out in answers, stumble about but do everything but look confident or in control when they know they are on, shall we say, shaky ground. Humphreys or Paxman would have had him for breakfast or dinner respectively.

The very interview itself is an attempt to convey the Thai government message that this government is indeed legitimate, despite the world's scepticism, the interview actually opening with that very question of why do so many question your government's legitimacy. His reply says what he is programmed to say but the world has up to now not, I am afraid, bought it and for me, they are not going to be any closer to buying it after this interview. Sorry, but I am a media observer and that is what I observe...

Interesting clip - having had so much practice in saying that his government is legitimate, I thought Abhisit would do a much better job. But, but like you say, he does come across as awfully hesitating and lacking in conviction.

Im not so sure it would be the legitmacy of his government question that creates the nervousness as much as that he is likely to be the PM associated with what comes next and that is looking very nasty. I would guess that personally Abhisit is decent guy but he is now in a position that is almost untenable and he is in a position where he finds himself having to do things he may not want to but with it increasingly out of his hands and of course nobody is going to swop places with him. I wonder if he has any regrets about assuming the position now

[bangkoklight]

It could be relevant because of the reds desire to bring Thaksin back.

The PAD exist because of Thaksin. Therefore, any protest by the PAD is a protest against Thaksin's corruption and his corrupt policies while PM.

The PAD and the Reds are opposite sides of the same coin.

They both represent minorities, they both ruined the Thai economy, they both want their own version of "democracy" without understanding what democracy really means.

It could be relevant because of the reds desire to bring Thaksin back.

Next time the PAD bring these killings up, let me know, okay?

The PAD exist because of Thaksin. Therefore, any protest by the PAD is a protest against Thaksin's corruption and his corrupt policies while PM.

The PAD exists because of Sondhi Limthongkul, a sore loser in some business dealings that went wrong. The PAD exists because Sondhi was green with envy.

The PAD and the Reds are opposite sides of the same coin.

They certainly are. The Reds are fighting for a democratically elected government and the return of the People's Constitution and the Yellows are campaigning for...? Please tell me.

They both represent minorities, they both ruined the Thai economy, they both want their own version of "democracy" without understanding what democracy really means.

The Reds have a better idea of what democracy is and they are not a minority.

[tim73]

Executive summary of this13 page long, real fine quality discussion: Red! Yellow! Red! Yellow! Yes you did! No, I did not! I'll kick your *ss! I'll tell your mother! No, you won't!

[jcbangkok]

THE NATION: Thaksin was warned by the Montengrin foreign ministry not to interfere in Thailand: a local newspaper reported.

THE NATION: Neighboring countries were putting pressure on Thakisn, as a Montenegrin citizen, NOT to interfere or to encourage protests in Thailand.

THE NATION: "But Thaksin - remained deaf to their warnings", the local paper said. It also now calls him "richest Montenegrin"

And THE NATION was today quoting anonymous web surfers and an acclaimed 'scientist' (whose esteemed name returned not a single hit on Google) as credible sources of forensic evidence to support the claim that recent photos of Thaksin were doctored.

Does THE NATION still hire an editor these days to verify sources of information, or are its pages just a yellow free-for-all?

Are you saying this is not true?

I'm not sure too many rational people would have the same take on the article you mentioned since even the title ( ('Doctored' pictures fuel rumours Thaksin is ill)) indicates they are reporting about the "Rumors". Nothing in the article indicates the paper supports such belief and in fact show the contrary side talking of the silliness of such rumors. The story of Thaksin's death and health has gone viral on the blogs and social networking sites and clearly is a legit story to report.

[thaihome]

The Yellow Shirts occupied Suvarnabhumi Airport for only nine days. Why?

They stopped when they won.

Actually they stopped when they accomplished what they set out to do, which was prevent the PPP from amending the constitution to prevent its dissolution because a party executive was convicted of voter fraud.

TH

[ozzieman05]

Think about what you are saying. I was lampooning Abhisit, and lampooning politicians and bringing them down to earth is a vital part of any democracy. Take a look at any newspaper in any democracy and you will see politicians being ridiculed left, right and centre in equal measure.

Your accusing me of slander, simply for deriding Abhisit as a two-faced weasel is just another symptom of the malaise that is afflicting Thailand at the moment. First the democratic right of the Thais is taken away for 'the greater good'. Then, we are forbidden to criticise the government. Next up, 're-education', imprisonment or worse, all 'for the greater good'

History is littered with examples of repression, and it all starts in the same way.

I couldn't agree more clockwork. But this repression and brainwashing has been going on for decades, and it all starts in the classroom, I'm sorry to say.

Please state your qualifications to say this

[whiterussian]

sorry if repost

Mr A on CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/...?iref=allsearch

BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/8640249.stm

The anti-government red-shirt movement has evolved.

The water buffalo are more politically aware - and more in tune with their working class urban comrades - than many had given them credit for.

This has gone way beyond one man.

This has become a bitter battle between the forces of the established status quo and a movement for social reform.

Edited April 27, 2010 by whiterussian

[agord]

I feel really ashamed: I've been reading The Nation and Bangkok Post for all this time. No more. Sorry. I understand we live in a country without freedom of speech, but this is too much for me.

Amazed. Ashamed...

Take care.

huh? It's an OPINION piece. You can't handle someone elses opnion then why read this thread? Why do you feel ashamed? Do you own the newspaper? disgusted maybe but ashamed?

[ozzieman05]

sorry if repost

Mr A on CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/...?iref=allsearch

BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/8640249.stm

The anti-government red-shirt movement has evolved.

The water buffalo are more politically aware - and more in tune with their working class urban comrades - than many had given them credit for.

This has gone way beyond one man.

This has become a bitter battle between the forces of the established status quo and a movement for social reform.

Clinton says

You can not resolve problem with Force

Only the USA has this right

Go back to the negotiation table

and if the red shirts will not go talk to your self

[clockworkorange]

THE NATION: Thaksin was warned by the Montengrin foreign ministry not to interfere in Thailand: a local newspaper reported.

THE NATION: Neighboring countries were putting pressure on Thakisn, as a Montenegrin citizen, NOT to interfere or to encourage protests in Thailand.

THE NATION: "But Thaksin - remained deaf to their warnings", the local paper said. It also now calls him "richest Montenegrin"

And THE NATION was today quoting anonymous web surfers and an acclaimed 'scientist' (whose esteemed name returned not a single hit on Google) as credible sources of forensic evidence to support the claim that recent photos of Thaksin were doctored.

Does THE NATION still hire an editor these days to verify sources of information, or are its pages just a yellow free-for-all?

Are you saying this is not true?

I'm saying that the NATION is circling the drain in its standards of journalism, and as such is a completely unreliable source of information.

No self respecting news editor would sully his reputation by allowing such a an article to run, a story that is based on statements from anonymous web surfers, and an acclaimed 'scientist' whose name returns not a single hit on Google, if he exists at all.

[brianbiegler]

that's it for me i am not going to bother reading anything else in this rubbish tabloid(the nation) what a load of crap from an obvious yellow shirt supporter.

Interesting you would totally reject this article. Does this seem like a normal nation to you?

When you go shopping do you have to get permission to enter a fort, and pass interrogation by so red shirted "protesters"

Some days the sky train runs and some days not, depending on the whims of some out of town group.

Some days you can drive down federal highways, some days you have to allow yourself to be searched by a mob.

Sometimes you can go for a ride on the sky-train, some-days you get ambushed by grenades and die.

To call the anarchy is indeed total rubbish....there is little difference between Thailand today and most countries in the world.

Yep and I know you love your yaba-yaba, you can see so clearly after a dose.

How in the hel_l can you red supporters ignore these facts? Sure the piece was sensationalist, but your blind support for these monkeys places you in a camp that supports terrorism and firing grenades at women. And don't use the dam_n "yellow monkey-see-monkey-do" argument. What they did was wrong too. Condemning red terrorism doesn't mean you condone yellow terrorism. Maybe it just means you condemn terrorism as an act of cowards.

Abahsit and Anupong aren't doing their jobs, I firmly believe that too. But supporting reds means you support anarchy and mob rule, and then you'll be the first to cry when someone cracks back at you with real violence. cowards.

[bangkoklight]

I notice that Hillary's wearing RED in that video clip from the US Embassy. It must be for a reason.

[jcbangkok]

THE NATION: Thaksin was warned by the Montengrin foreign ministry not to interfere in Thailand: a local newspaper reported.

THE NATION: Neighboring countries were putting pressure on Thakisn, as a Montenegrin citizen, NOT to interfere or to encourage protests in Thailand.

THE NATION: "But Thaksin - remained deaf to their warnings", the local paper said. It also now calls him "richest Montenegrin"

And THE NATION was today quoting anonymous web surfers and an acclaimed 'scientist' (whose esteemed name returned not a single hit on Google) as credible sources of forensic evidence to support the claim that recent photos of Thaksin were doctored.

Does THE NATION still hire an editor these days to verify sources of information, or are its pages just a yellow free-for-all?

Do you have a link to any such photos? I've worked and hobbied in photo retouching for over 20 years. Would just like to see what is there supposedly retouched.

This is not a challenge, just wish to see what you guys are talking about.

see Thaksinlives on facebook. As I said, this was all started on the net blogs and social networking. Although I do believe Thaksin is sicker than he is letting on, the only thing "possibly" suspicious about the photos is they all conveniently have date and time stamps from last week before the rumors of his death went viral.

Edited April 27, 2010 by jcbangkok

[whiterussian]

I notice that Hillary's wearing RED in that video clip from the US Embassy. It must be for a reason.

Good point! She and Aung San Su Kyi must have received a brown envelope from Montenegro... thinking about it.. Bill Clinton was at Oxford at the same time as Aung San Su Kyi!! dam_n conspiracy! Dang commies behind every bush!!!!

Edited April 27, 2010 by whiterussian