Dr Tul Cancels Campaign In Khon Kaen

[way2muchcoffee]

Last I checked this thread is about a PAD spokesman who had to flee an airport that was blocked by a red caravan. This thread is not about France. This thread is not about various democratic systems. Please stick to the topic guys.

we are on the topic;

Dr Tul has taken a wise decision because we are now in a passionate atmosphere which is spinning out of control.

More and more similar incidents, I am afraid, will occur.

The research for getting out of the current situation and solve the crisis is a higher priority for people of good will.

often it appears that the description of the incident is exagerrated: so cool down fortunately the incident is over and nobody has been hurted.

However, the fact to blow out of proportion such an incident by opening a thread and to want to stick on the track may demonstrate a propaganda operation.

Let us interpret this incident and raise up the dialog.

French this, French that. Your post of detailed events in 1958 in France is not what this thread is about. Because I point this out to you I am therefore a propagandist. Wake up Jerry. Thailand is not France, and this thread is not about France. If you want to talk about France maybe you should find a French forum.

Edited May 1, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Humungus]

vive le Thailande libre!

No more blockades, barricades, roadblocks, protests, demonstrations, or riots. Let Thais have open debate and discussion with the participation of all sides in a peaceful manner.

[shawndoc]

Last I checked this thread is about a PAD spokesman who had to flee an airport that was blocked by a red caravan.

Does he have PAD ties. You're the first post I'd seen mention that. Got any links/sources for the claim?

[Jerrytheyoung]

"French this, French that. Your post of detailed events in 1958 in France is not what this thread is about. Because I point this out to you I am therefore a propagandist. Wake up Jerry. Thailand is not France, and this thread is not about France. If you want to talk about France maybe you should find a French forum" Quote.

I do not accuse you to be a propagandist but obviously opening a serie of threads on minor incidents (which after appear to be fully distorted information= example the grenades found on a motorcyclist in dong muang - in fact a smuggling not link to Red shirts...) can be qualified as very directive propagandist operations.

Today the Silom Mc Donald thread is another example in plus of Dr Tul thread. (For Mc Do, we will discover maybe later that the glasses have been broken by a stone or other ways...) Jumping directly to conclusions (that we discover fakes later on), creating an atmosphere leading to more passion, these are obviously propaganda operations of which i give you credit, you are not at the origin.Most (not all) of those incidents are blown out of proportion. In this volatile atmosphere, we have to cool down. My French example is cited because the situation is very parallel to the Thai situation. I support and I find some interest in reading a lot of posts giving examples from USA or UK and I have never objected to. Everybody with a positive will trying to solve the situation is welcome. We have to minimise the propaganda from both sides and keep cool.

IMHO, the only correct way to get out of this mess is a third way, as I have explained several times

Edited May 1, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[kohchaiBKK]

I've just returned from a visit to a village in rural Sakon Nakhon. The villagers there are mostly Redshirt supporters. They are encouraged by the Headmen and quite a few local govt officials who all think the sun shone out of Thaksin's derriere. The few non-Redshirt supporters or govt sympathisers I've spoken with are afraid to speak out, as they are in the minority. However, I suspect the majority are actually silent, with no strong views one way or the other, but the Reds are loud, brash and boastful. They dominate the political space in the village, making it an intimidating atmosphere for other's to express an opinion.

Since the April 10th bloodshed in BKK, two significant events have happened. One is core Redshirt supporters have set up a community radio station that broadcasts Rednews and propaganda all through the day and late into the evening (not sure of it is 24 hours). This keeps the supporters in touch with what is happening in BKK and elsewhere in the Red Revolution, since the People's Channel was blocked. It also provides music and entertainment of the sort popular in Isaan. Secondly, dozens of VCDs have been distributed to villagers showing a totally lopsided and distorted version of events from before, during and after the April 10th violence. Naturally, the Reds are presented as the heroes and victims, while the govt is presented as the villains and sole instigators of the violence. Abhisit is singled out for particular hatred and vilification for every perceived wrong committed against the Reds. The villagers lap it up as gospel.

My main point in raising this is that given this state of affairs, there is little chance in Red villages such as this that there can be free and fair elections in the near future, as a single mob has colonised the minds of the villagers and will not allow alternative voices and points of views to be heard, which was reflected in the actions of the Redshirts in Khon Kaen yesterday and bodes ill, with all the other numerous anti-democratic incidents for the peaceful future of Thailand, Isaan especially. Functional democracy is still a distant dream, I'm afraid.

An accurate observation. I read it to my wife, who is from Sakhon Nakon, and she concurs. It doesn't lend very well to an end to all this. The lack of education and the poverty levels render them easy to manipulate. No one knows that better than Thaksin and his minions.

Edited May 1, 2010 by kohchaiBKK

[nitecm]

Last I checked this thread is about a PAD spokesman who had to flee an airport that was blocked by a red caravan.

Does he have PAD ties. You're the first post I'd seen mention that. Got any links/sources for the claim?

At least he knew that Khon kaen is the stronghold of red shirt

[Humungus]

Jerry suggesting that McDonalds was hit by a stone is pretty funny. He may as well deny the window even broke. Thanks Jerry no need to take any of you posts seriously. Let us know when you come back to reality.

[animatic]

Preventing alternative views and discussion is the aim here allied to a message that will be noticed by locals of "if you think you can have different views from us forget it". Intimidation and control of the message (indoctrination)

Under one name or another this same control of information and message has been going on for 10 years.

And in particular the last 5, violence and direct intimidation up to assault has been standard practice,

and has been the greatest impediment to calling free and fair elections using full democratic principles.

They the Reds say thjey want Democracy Restored is their greatest lie, because that is so greatly disproved

by their long term actions.

[animatic]

IMHO, the Foreign Embassies taking into account the stubborness of both sides, the escalation in provocations, the fact that more and more leaders are outlawed pushing them toward the extreme, the absence of dialog, the police and Army obviously split, have raised the level of ban/warning for travelling to Thailand.

A major incident can inflame the Country into Civil war. We are no more in the rationale, Passions are taking over. Dr Tul has taken the wise decision avoiding a local conflict which may have degenerated into a major incident.

On the long term, we must think also to the current parliamentary system which is conducting to series of coup/crisis. The Parliamentary system is based on the Anglo/saxon model and is maybe not so well adapted for the Thai disposition. France after nearly a Century of turbulences, has decided to move to another system in 1958 because the parliamentary system is not adapted to the French disposition.

Constitutional lawyers should try to find other ways. Democracy is not only a parliamentary system; It is obvious that, respecting the Monarchy, new ways have to be explored and the current constitution will have to be reconsidered. For Anglo-saxons people who know only one system, respecting democracy can be done by other ways; for example a parliamentary system may be be balanced with direct elections. I just throw the idea on the table to open the discussion: why not a PM directly elected?

The current system works well in the UK, Aus and many other countries. The people here just don't understand it yet.

Also, there is still the need to elect the people around him.

I don't think a directly elected PM would solve any problems, and would just raise new issues.

You cannot think out of your box: Study the French History:

The third Republic (1871 to Second World War) and the 4th Republic (1945-1958) were parliamentary systems -very similar to your models-. and in fact it has been a succession of blockages, of non decision period particularly dramatic during some periods: French Vietnamese war: Dien Bien Phuh, for a large part, the illustration of the impossibility to take a decision by the French government. Then, we were trapped in the Algerian war, unable to get some decisions and facing a civil war, (French terrorist Organisation- OAS supported by elite Para troopers forces). De Gaulle was retired from Politics (Since 1947) because he was fed up by the parliamentary system and the immobilism generated. In April 1958, France was divided in two blocks, on the verge of a Civil War (Can you see the analogy with the current thai situation?)

Rene Coty, then President de la Republique, just an honorific position, no real power (Still a similar situation with the Invisible Hand), called De Gaulle for the sake of the Nation. De Gaulle imposed two conditions:

1- A new constitution with a reinforced executive

2- To govern until the end of the year with exceptional powers and by ordinances

De Gaulle respected the period, a New constitution has been approved by referendum and elections have followed.

The 5th Republic Constitution has proven his efficiency even through "Cohabitation periods" with the President on one side and the Ministers from the other side. France has found its own way to stability with a mixture of strong executive/ parliamentary system.

Obviously, Thailand has to find its own way which is probably different from french or anglo-saxon models

I do think the French system with current Monarchy role on top would be a good choice for Thailand.

[way2muchcoffee]

Last I checked this thread is about a PAD spokesman who had to flee an airport that was blocked by a red caravan. This thread is not about France. This thread is not about various democratic systems. Please stick to the topic guys.

PAD spokesman or multi-colour spokesman? I wasn't aware of his links to the PAD.

edit: sorry for going off topic

Perhaps I was mistaken. The only thing I could find with a 10 minute search was a reader comment on BP that directly linked him. Perhaps that is what I was remembering.

[Lumumba]

What? Dr Tul does nt like RED entourage? That was the reception team comprising people that would help him go over the talking points and correct the one ones he already had might hurt the local feeling.

Multi or any other color being active being active now would never never help the polity get any saner. I magine at the height of Yellow rampage, the reds decided to camp at the cargo terminal next to the passenger terminal. it would nt have helped.

If you are having a quiet bath in a river and the village mad man shows up and steals your garments you neatly placed on the grass.

Do you chase after him naked or wait calmly for a sane person to saunter by ans ask for clothes or wait till its dark to sneak home?

If you gave chase, people might find it difficult know who is the psycho among the two of you, as you will be the naked hysterical one behind.

Dr Tul, to my opinion is not making it easy for the authorities.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Jerry suggesting that McDonalds was hit by a stone is pretty funny. He may as well deny the window even broke. Thanks Jerry no need to take any of you posts seriously. Let us know when you come back to reality.

I do not know how the Mac Do glasses have been broken....

I just say... wait few days the truth will come out. Do not jump today to conclusions... too much propagandist operations by TV and fake affirmations.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[Jerrytheyoung]

IMHO, the Foreign Embassies taking into account the stubborness of both sides, the escalation in provocations, the fact that more and more leaders are outlawed pushing them toward the extreme, the absence of dialog, the police and Army obviously split, have raised the level of ban/warning for travelling to Thailand.

A major incident can inflame the Country into Civil war. We are no more in the rationale, Passions are taking over. Dr Tul has taken the wise decision avoiding a local conflict which may have degenerated into a major incident.

On the long term, we must think also to the current parliamentary system which is conducting to series of coup/crisis. The Parliamentary system is based on the Anglo/saxon model and is maybe not so well adapted for the Thai disposition. France after nearly a Century of turbulences, has decided to move to another system in 1958 because the parliamentary system is not adapted to the French disposition.

Constitutional lawyers should try to find other ways. Democracy is not only a parliamentary system; It is obvious that, respecting the Monarchy, new ways have to be explored and the current constitution will have to be reconsidered. For Anglo-saxons people who know only one system, respecting democracy can be done by other ways; for example a parliamentary system may be be balanced with direct elections. I just throw the idea on the table to open the discussion: why not a PM directly elected?

The current system works well in the UK, Aus and many other countries. The people here just don't understand it yet.

Also, there is still the need to elect the people around him.

I don't think a directly elected PM would solve any problems, and would just raise new issues.

You cannot think out of your box: Study the French History:

The third Republic (1871 to Second World War) and the 4th Republic (1945-1958) were parliamentary systems -very similar to your models-. and in fact it has been a succession of blockages, of non decision period particularly dramatic during some periods: French Vietnamese war: Dien Bien Phuh, for a large part, the illustration of the impossibility to take a decision by the French government. Then, we were trapped in the Algerian war, unable to get some decisions and facing a civil war, (French terrorist Organisation- OAS supported by elite Para troopers forces). De Gaulle was retired from Politics (Since 1947) because he was fed up by the parliamentary system and the immobilism generated. In April 1958, France was divided in two blocks, on the verge of a Civil War (Can you see the analogy with the current thai situation?)

Rene Coty, then President de la Republique, just an honorific position, no real power (Still a similar situation with the Invisible Hand), called De Gaulle for the sake of the Nation. De Gaulle imposed two conditions:

1- A new constitution with a reinforced executive

2- To govern until the end of the year with exceptional powers and by ordinances

De Gaulle respected the period, a New constitution has been approved by referendum and elections have followed.

The 5th Republic Constitution has proven his efficiency even through "Cohabitation periods" with the President on one side and the Ministers from the other side. France has found its own way to stability with a mixture of strong executive/ parliamentary system.

Obviously, Thailand has to find its own way which is probably different from french or anglo-saxon models

I do think the French system with current Monarchy role on top would be a good choice for Thailand.

Thanks, Animatic. Up to the Thai Constitutional Lawyers to find the best way for their Country.

[animatic]

Every time a party is disbanded because of individual actions and you ban the leaders (which may have not been involved in the fiddling) from politic for a long period, you push people to work outside the normalcy.

Every time you issue a warrant against a political leader, you push him to work outside the normalcy..

Or there will be an amnesty in the final agreement or we are heading to a Larger confrontation.

I am afraid the amnesty is not something acceptable by the government and will not be accepted by its supporters ...so the logic is ....Confrontation.

Think about that: everytime a summon, a warrant, every time the situation will be leaving a little more the normalcy because the leaders will continue to work but "out of the box" and the logic is: it will be deepening.

So what do YOU plan to do about Political Leaders breaking election laws?

Remember these 'Leaders' are working the crooked side, outside of the box in concert to suborn the election laws.

If it is proved that ANY leadership did that, then throwing ONLY the ones caught redhanded out just means they will have

one 'bad guy' they will pay big time to 'do the dirty work, and to take a 5 year fall from grace, on retainer, when caught.

Actually taking down the EC registered leadership is the ONLY incentive shown so far for them to clean up their act.

Election rigging and such are so rampant and over the top here, a simple slap of ONE hand isn't gonna

back them off, they can pay off plenty of fall guys, but losing most of their best and brightest,

is a strong incentive to clean up the game. And this ONLY happens when a member of leadership

is CONNECTED DIRECTLY with the crime... and be assured we ARE talking crime here and not

misdemeanors or gray mmoral areas here.

The 111 TRT who got banned for organized, egregious conduct, have only 2 years more or less left

and they are too soon back in the game, and certainly they have been doing directing behind the scenes,

but, they were doing this anyway while in office, but able to do MORE graft with better potential to hide it.

Personally I prefer a 10 year ban, if they are caught, then they are exactly the types I don't want near the budget.....

And bans for 'associating with them politically' for OTHER MPS would be more incentive, but harder to enforce of course.

It is not simply because they are banned that there is confrontation, but because their side is

not controlling the budget and patronage pie, and the army list ability to control the forces.

This is a power play for power and the spoils, and less about political titles and seating in a large room.

Sure they want back from their bans 2 years early, but that is of less importance than

Budget and army control.

And the prevalence of former TRT and PPP Mp's STILL on the Red Stages instigating unrest,

or like Payap leading the Chula invasion shows these guys respect NO BOXES.

Nice ivory tower try at 'a solution', but rolling back the checks and balances, as you suggest,

plays right into their hands...

Lets see;

a MP or politician has enough evidence against him to either summon him for questioning,

or issue a warrant for his arrest, and you say;

'He is a politician and thus should not be summoned or a warrant issued because it breaks normalcy'.

So warrant should not be issue if someone holds a particular job...

What job should I have to avoid grand theft charges?

Edited May 1, 2010 by animatic

[way2muchcoffee]

"French this, French that. Your post of detailed events in 1958 in France is not what this thread is about. Because I point this out to you I am therefore a propagandist. Wake up Jerry. Thailand is not France, and this thread is not about France. If you want to talk about France maybe you should find a French forum" Quote.

I do not accuse you to be a propagandist but obviously opening a serie of threads on minor incidents (which after appear to be fully distorted information= example the grenades found on a motorcyclist in dong muang - in fact a smuggling not link to Red shirts...) can be qualified as very directive propagandist operations.

Today the Silom Mc Donald thread is another example in plus of Dr Tul thread. (For Mc Do, we will discover maybe later that the glasses have been broken by a stone or other ways...) Jumping directly to conclusions (that we discover fakes later on), creating an atmosphere leading to more passion, these are obviously propaganda operations of which i give you credit, you are not at the origin.Most (not all) of those incidents are blown out of proportion. In this volatile atmosphere, we have to cool down. My French example is cited because the situation is very parallel to the Thai situation. I support and I find some interest in reading a lot of posts giving examples from USA or UK and I have never objected to. Everybody with a positive will trying to solve the situation is welcome. We have to minimise the propaganda from both sides and keep cool.

IMHO, the only correct way to get out of this mess is a third way, as I have explained several times

Jerry, forgive my frustration. As you know I live and work near to this anarchic wasteland formerly known as the Bangkok central business district. I am tired of the talk that is going nowhere, seemingly. This situation has gone way past the bounds of protest and it needs to be ended, preferably through negotiation, but if not then force will have to suffice. If I have taken out my general frustration toward you I apologize. I have been reading your posts for weeks and it is clear that you have a deep love for Thais and Thailand, coupled with a strong moral code valuing egalitarian principles and justice. Those are laudable attributes in a person.

[lannarebirth]

Every time a party is disbanded because of individual actions and you ban the leaders (which may have not been involved in the fiddling) from politic for a long period, you push people to work outside the normalcy.

Every time you issue a warrant against a political leader, you push him to work outside the normalcy..

Or there will be an amnesty in the final agreement or we are heading to a Larger confrontation.

I am afraid the amnesty is not something acceptable by the government and will not be accepted by its supporters ...so the logic is ....Confrontation.

Think about that: everytime a summon, a warrant, every time the situation will be leaving a little more the normalcy because the leaders will continue to work but "out of the box" and the logic is: it will be deepening.

So what do YOU plan to do about Political Leaders breaking election laws?

Remember these 'Leaders' are working the crooked side, outside of the box in concert to suborn the election laws.

If it is proved that ANY leadership did that then throwing ONE out just means they will have

one 'bad guy' they will pay big time to dpo the dirty work, and to take a 5 year fall from grace when caught.

Actually taking down the EC registered leadership is the ONLY incentive shown so far for them to clean up their act.

Election rigging and such are so rampant and over the top here, a simple slap of ONE hand isn't gonna

back them off, they can pay off plenty of fall guys, but losing most of their best and brightest,

is a strong incentive to clean up the game. And this ONLY happens when a member of leadership

is CONNECTED DIRECTLY with the crime... and be assure we ARE talking crime here and not misdemeanors.

The 111 TRT who got banned for arganized egregious conduct have only 2 years more or less left and

they are back in the game, and certainly they have been doing directing behind the scenes, but

They were doing this anyway while in office, but able to do MORE graft with better potential to hide it.

It is not because they are banned that there is confronation, but because their side is

not controlling the budget and patronage pie, and the army list ability to control the forces.

Sure they want back from their bans 2 years early, but that is of less importance than

Budget and army control.

And the prevalence of former TRT and PPP Mp's STILL on the Red Stages instigating unrest,

or like Payap leading the Chula invasion shows these guys respect NO BOXES.

Nice ivory tower try at 'a solution', but rolling back the checks and balances, as you suggest,

plays right into their hands...

Its important to remember that surrender is part and parcel of any French derived solution.

[Lumumba]

"French this, French that. Your post of detailed events in 1958 in France is not what this thread is about. Because I point this out to you I am therefore a propagandist. Wake up Jerry. Thailand is not France, and this thread is not about France. If you want to talk about France maybe you should find a French forum" Quote.

I do not accuse you to be a propagandist but obviously opening a serie of threads on minor incidents (which after appear to be fully distorted information= example the grenades found on a motorcyclist in dong muang - in fact a smuggling not link to Red shirts...) can be qualified as very directive propagandist operations.

Today the Silom Mc Donald thread is another example in plus of Dr Tul thread. (For Mc Do, we will discover maybe later that the glasses have been broken by a stone or other ways...) Jumping directly to conclusions (that we discover fakes later on), creating an atmosphere leading to more passion, these are obviously propaganda operations of which i give you credit, you are not at the origin.Most (not all) of those incidents are blown out of proportion. In this volatile atmosphere, we have to cool down. My French example is cited because the situation is very parallel to the Thai situation. I support and I find some interest in reading a lot of posts giving examples from USA or UK and I have never objected to. Everybody with a positive will trying to solve the situation is welcome. We have to minimise the propaganda from both sides and keep cool.

IMHO, the only correct way to get out of this mess is a third way, as I have explained several times

Jerry, forgive my frustration. As you know I live and work near to this anarchic wasteland formerly known as the Bangkok central business district. I am tired of the talk that is going nowhere, seemingly. This situation has gone way past the bounds of protest and it needs to be ended, preferably through negotiation, but if not then force will have to suffice. If I have taken out my general frustration toward you I apologize. I have been reading your posts for weeks and it is clear that you have a deep love for Thais and Thailand, coupled with a strong moral code valuing egalitarian principles and justice. Those are laudable attributes in a person.

Opps. Me thought it was the CaFFeine.

[kraxlhuber]

IMHO, the Foreign Embassies taking into account the stubborness of both sides, the escalation in provocations, the fact that more and more leaders are outlawed pushing them toward the extreme, the absence of dialog, the police and Army obviously split, have raised the level of ban/warning for travelling to Thailand.

A major incident can inflame the Country into Civil war. We are no more in the rationale, Passions are taking over. Dr Tul has taken the wise decision avoiding a local conflict which may have degenerated into a major incident.

On the long term, we must think also to the current parliamentary system which is conducting to series of coup/crisis. The Parliamentary system is based on the Anglo/saxon model and is maybe not so well adapted for the Thai disposition. France after nearly a Century of turbulences, has decided to move to another system in 1958 because the parliamentary system is not adapted to the French disposition.

Constitutional lawyers should try to find other ways. Democracy is not only a parliamentary system; It is obvious that, respecting the Monarchy, new ways have to be explored and the current constitution will have to be reconsidered. For Anglo-saxons people who know only one system, respecting democracy can be done by other ways; for example a parliamentary system may be be balanced with direct elections. I just throw the idea on the table to open the discussion: why not a PM directly elected?

R U kidding????

PM directly elected?!

Taksin PM tomorrow,yessir.

No way.

Not that I fancy that,BUT with all that wishi washi going on ,and throwing sand in the eyes of the humble populace,of any color.

If a person cannot travel freely (Doctor Tul to Khon Khaen) to attend a meeting,then its time to send the troops in.

Should open the opulent 5/6 star hotels near the protest sides, for 3 nights for the demonstrators to rest(free of charge with american breakfast), then ask them to go home to their reedgrass -thached -adobes,and tell the volk how rich poeple live.

Also the first class shopping malls can open a "After-Rally sale" with 80% discounts on soap and towels and aftershave,and other toiletrys,things like that are needed badly.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Every time a party is disbanded because of individual actions and you ban the leaders (which may have not been involved in the fiddling) from politic for a long period, you push people to work outside the normalcy.

Every time you issue a warrant against a political leader, you push him to work outside the normalcy..

Or there will be an amnesty in the final agreement or we are heading to a Larger confrontation.

I am afraid the amnesty is not something acceptable by the government and will not be accepted by its supporters ...so the logic is ....Confrontation.

Think about that: everytime a summon, a warrant, every time the situation will be leaving a little more the normalcy because the leaders will continue to work but "out of the box" and the logic is: it will be deepening.

So what do YOU plan to do about Political Leaders breaking election laws?

Remember these 'Leaders' are working the crooked side, outside of the box in concert to suborn the election laws.

If it is proved that ANY leadership did that then throwing ONE out just means they will have

one 'bad guy' they will pay big time to dpo the dirty work, and to take a 5 year fall from grace when caught.

Actually taking down the EC registered leadership is the ONLY incentive shown so far for them to clean up their act.

Election rigging and such are so rampant and over the top here, a simple slap of ONE hand isn't gonna

back them off, they can pay off plenty of fall guys, but losing most of their best and brightest,

is a strong incentive to clean up the game. And this ONLY happens when a member of leadership

is CONNECTED DIRECTLY with the crime... and be assure we ARE talking crime here and not misdemeanors.

The 111 TRT who got banned for arganized egregious conduct have only 2 years more or less left and

they are back in the game, and certainly they have been doing directing behind the scenes, but

They were doing this anyway while in office, but able to do MORE graft with better potential to hide it.

It is not because they are banned that there is confronation, but because their side is

not controlling the budget and patronage pie, and the army list ability to control the forces.

Sure they want back from their bans 2 years early, but that is of less importance than

Budget and army control.

And the prevalence of former TRT and PPP Mp's STILL on the Red Stages instigating unrest,

or like Payap leading the Chula invasion shows these guys respect NO BOXES.

Nice ivory tower try at 'a solution', but rolling back the checks and balances, as you suggest,

plays right into their hands...

Its important to remember that surrender is part and parcel of any French derived solution.

Every Country has its up and down in History. Even USA has gotten its dark period (Vietnam War).

Even in the worse situation, Country occupied, a large part of the French were fighting alongside with the Allies ( Africa and Italy campaigns, Normandy landing with Leclerc division, Commando in Caen/ouistreham the 6th June 44, .. I have even gotten a friend fighting with the Russian (pilot in Normandie-Niemen squadron).

Paris has made its liberation alone against the nazis.... is all that surrender?

Edited May 1, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[retarius]

IMHO, the Foreign Embassies taking into account the stubborness of both sides, the escalation in provocations, the fact that more and more leaders are outlawed pushing them toward the extreme, the absence of dialog, the police and Army obviously split, have raised the level of ban/warning for travelling to Thailand.

A major incident can inflame the Country into Civil war. We are no more in the rationale, Passions are taking over. Dr Tul has taken the wise decision avoiding a local conflict which may have degenerated into a major incident.

On the long term, we must think also to the current parliamentary system which is conducting to series of coup/crisis. The Parliamentary system is based on the Anglo/saxon model and is maybe not so well adapted for the Thai disposition. France after nearly a Century of turbulences, has decided to move to another system in 1958 because the parliamentary system is not adapted to the French disposition.

Constitutional lawyers should try to find other ways. Democracy is not only a parliamentary system; It is obvious that, respecting the Monarchy, new ways have to be explored and the current constitution will have to be reconsidered. For Anglo-saxons people who know only one system, respecting democracy can be done by other ways; for example a parliamentary system may be be balanced with direct elections. I just throw the idea on the table to open the discussion: why not a PM directly elected?

Good ideas...thank you

[hammered]

I've just returned from a visit to a village in rural Sakon Nakhon. The villagers there are mostly Redshirt supporters. They are encouraged by the Headmen and quite a few local govt officials who all think the sun shone out of Thaksin's derriere. The few non-Redshirt supporters or govt sympathisers I've spoken with are afraid to speak out, as they are in the minority. However, I suspect the majority are actually silent, with no strong views one way or the other, but the Reds are loud, brash and boastful. They dominate the political space in the village, making it an intimidating atmosphere for other's to express an opinion.

Since the April 10th bloodshed in BKK, two significant events have happened. One is core Redshirt supporters have set up a community radio station that broadcasts Rednews and propaganda all through the day and late into the evening (not sure of it is 24 hours). This keeps the supporters in touch with what is happening in BKK and elsewhere in the Red Revolution, since the People's Channel was blocked. It also provides music and entertainment of the sort popular in Isaan. Secondly, dozens of VCDs have been distributed to villagers showing a totally lopsided and distorted version of events from before, during and after the April 10th violence. Naturally, the Reds are presented as the heroes and victims, while the govt is presented as the villains and sole instigators of the violence. Abhisit is singled out for particular hatred and vilification for every perceived wrong committed against the Reds. The villagers lap it up as gospel.

My main point in raising this is that given this state of affairs, there is little chance in Red villages such as this that there can be free and fair elections in the near future, as a single mob has colonised the minds of the villagers and will not allow alternative voices and points of views to be heard, which was reflected in the actions of the Redshirts in Khon Kaen yesterday and bodes ill, with all the other numerous anti-democratic incidents for the peaceful future of Thailand, Isaan especially. Functional democracy is still a distant dream, I'm afraid.

Single source indoctrination

[lannarebirth]

Every time a party is disbanded because of individual actions and you ban the leaders (which may have not been involved in the fiddling) from politic for a long period, you push people to work outside the normalcy.

Every time you issue a warrant against a political leader, you push him to work outside the normalcy..

Or there will be an amnesty in the final agreement or we are heading to a Larger confrontation.

I am afraid the amnesty is not something acceptable by the government and will not be accepted by its supporters ...so the logic is ....Confrontation.

Think about that: everytime a summon, a warrant, every time the situation will be leaving a little more the normalcy because the leaders will continue to work but "out of the box" and the logic is: it will be deepening.

So what do YOU plan to do about Political Leaders breaking election laws?

Remember these 'Leaders' are working the crooked side, outside of the box in concert to suborn the election laws.

If it is proved that ANY leadership did that then throwing ONE out just means they will have

one 'bad guy' they will pay big time to dpo the dirty work, and to take a 5 year fall from grace when caught.

Actually taking down the EC registered leadership is the ONLY incentive shown so far for them to clean up their act.

Election rigging and such are so rampant and over the top here, a simple slap of ONE hand isn't gonna

back them off, they can pay off plenty of fall guys, but losing most of their best and brightest,

is a strong incentive to clean up the game. And this ONLY happens when a member of leadership

is CONNECTED DIRECTLY with the crime... and be assure we ARE talking crime here and not misdemeanors.

The 111 TRT who got banned for arganized egregious conduct have only 2 years more or less left and

they are back in the game, and certainly they have been doing directing behind the scenes, but

They were doing this anyway while in office, but able to do MORE graft with better potential to hide it.

It is not because they are banned that there is confronation, but because their side is

not controlling the budget and patronage pie, and the army list ability to control the forces.

Sure they want back from their bans 2 years early, but that is of less importance than

Budget and army control.

And the prevalence of former TRT and PPP Mp's STILL on the Red Stages instigating unrest,

or like Payap leading the Chula invasion shows these guys respect NO BOXES.

Nice ivory tower try at 'a solution', but rolling back the checks and balances, as you suggest,

plays right into their hands...

Its important to remember that surrender is part and parcel of any French derived solution.

Every Country has its up and down in History. Even USA has gotten its dark period (Vietnam War).

Even in the worse situation, Country occupied, a large part of the French were fighting alongside with the Allies ( Africa and Italy campaigns, Normandy landing with Leclerc division, Commando in Caen/ouistreham the 6th June 44, .. I have even gotten a friend fighting with the Russian (pilot in Normandie-Niemen squadron).

Paris has made its liberation alone against the nazis.... is all that surrender?

Actually Jerry, I jest, but there are many similarities between France and Thailand and models that have worked there may be worth exploring. The difference between a Parisian and a person living in the countryside is not so very different IMO to the gap one sees between Bangkok and the provinces. Both nations are only vaguely aware that there is a world outside its borders and tend to have insular cultures. That said, I DO disagree with some of your proposals, particularly amnesty for people who enage in violence. Thailand has a constitution, flawed as it is. It has a legally elected government, damaged as it is. If Thailand is to move forward it must be through application of its laws through its already created institutions. The application has to be seen to be applied fairly to all parties and elections must be held in a climate free of violence, intimidation and vote buying. That all these institutions and constitution need reform goes without saying, but that reform must come through the legislative and referendum process and not from the point of a spear, the bullet of a gun, or the shrapnel from a bomb.

Edited May 1, 2010 by lannarebirth

[retarius]

The red shirt terrorist say they are a democratic party and if the majority of the people do not believe them, they will bomb the majority until they do.

I'm guessing you have a PhD in political science and no tattoos?

[stingray]

The red always says , " The rights to demonstration was according to Constitution of the Thai people to express themselves in a peaceful manner " So Why the multicolor leader was block this is not a fair game and I think Thai press freedom are one of the best in the world and not as the red accuse sided to one party.

RED DEMOCRACY AT WORK.

I am not sure why the RED wand election. It seem they have taken over most of the government responsibility. So why have election that you have to buy vote.

RED you win

In my opinion they could separate it in 2 countries.. Let keep the reds North east province as a new (theyr own) country: "The red state". They can create theyr own state, their own passport, etc. So they can rule it the way they want. Simlar as North and South Korea or West and East Germany after the war. After 5 year you can find out who of the two countries have the better economy.

[schuimpje]

Just finished watching the Red's VCD on the 10th April events.

Will it's gross to watch, couple of things I noticed.

1. There's only about 7 minutes of original footage, mainly from parliament, day-time scenes and just text on a colored background spread over the course of 25 minutes in total.

2. Actual footage from the 10th April events count for about 1.5 minutes out of this 7 minutes.

3. Rest of the CD is repeat after repeat after repeat with sometimes scenes cleverly looped to make it look like a scene of 2 minutes where it's actually only 10 seconds worth of material. There are also many scenes that are used in various different scenarios. They have maybe one or two scenes from military that are used over and over again at the end of various different 'scenes' to show military shooting at different locations...

The best shot however I find is where they show the red's the next day, mourning over their fallen comrades.

It's somewhere around the 13.50 mark.

Why is this the best shot?

While I deplore all violence and absolutely mourn all victims of this situation so far, looking at that scene did make me wonder.

From the 14 Picture Frames on the table, there is only 1 frame with a 'normal' picture of the deceased person.

All the other frames contain Police File Mug Shots...!

13 Former criminals died that night.

Gives you something to think about.

Normal people did not die out there because they stay out of trouble, except for some unlucky people that got into the cross fire and of course the soldiers that where sent into battle for which I have the greatest respect, given that they had only received half the mandate necessary to clean this up.

People looking for trouble, according to those pictures, did die that night.

Sorry for being so cold-hearted, but it puts a slightly different perspective on things I think.

Edited May 1, 2010 by schuimpje

[retarius]

It seems that in Thai politics people are usually acting out of personal interest rather than national interest. With the amount of corruption people are always struggling to get their share. Why would anyone buy votes if there wasn't money to be made from being in office? I agree that the constitution should be fixed so that all Thais can receive good government and representation. The problem is finding people who will do it without attempting to give an advantage to their own side. I think getting red Thais and Yellow Thais in one room and expecting them to draft a neutral document is wishful thinking.

You raise interesting and important points....last year in the local elections in my town here in Isan the incumbent was offering 500 Baht to voters...he was challenged by a rather attractive lady who ran a huge campaign, her picture was everywhere and there were almost non-stop taxis blaring out her message for one month before the election, she offered 1000 baht to voters...strangely, the incumbent won hands down...apparently lots of folk went to collet the 1000 baht from the nice lady but then voted for the incumbent...but she must have spent an enormous amount of money, and clearly she was expecting to get all of her campaign money back with interest if she had won...based on our old friend corruption...on this occasion the increased donation didn't work...maybe the poor people are not that stupid?

I also agree with the notion of a revised constitution...clearly whoever drafts the constitution will stack it towards the party that they favor....the army wrote the present constitution to try to prevent Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power; they even made it a criminal offense, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, to criticize or campaign against the constitution before the referendum; nevertheless the Thaksin-policy supporters won the most seats presumably because a simple look around will show you that there are a lot more poor people in Thailand who like pro-poor policies than there are rich folk driving their Benzes to shop at Ratchprasong...the World Bank report on Thailand in 2006 makes the point that Thaksin-policies halved the poverty rate in Thailand in 5 years, so no wonder he was popular with poor people, and no wonder people turned a blind eye to his corrupt practices, especially as the y think that all politicians are corrupt...

Like you I do not think it is possible to rewrite the constitution in a way that will be acceptable to both the elite and the poor...and rigging the vote to make one pass simply deprives it of legitimacy again....

For me the only way is via some body outside of the country, the UN or some such body, who would construct a constitution perceived as fair by the UN in an open vote, and then have UN monitored elections...but this path forward will not be acceptable to the elite and so is a non starter...which means impasse...

Even if the red shirts are broken at Ratchaprasong, the grievances will still be here and will go underground, with disastrous consequences, in my opinion....

I fear that the solution will come when life here becomes intolerable enough, and the prizes resulting from gaining power are reduced to the extent that people become prepared to make compromises....and sadly this seems a long way off...

[retarius]

Just finished watching the Red's VCD on the 10th April events.

Will it's gross to watch, couple of things I noticed.

1. There's only about 7 minutes of original footage, mainly from parliament, day-time scenes and just text on a colored background spread over the course of 25 minutes in total.

2. Actual footage from the 10th April events count for about 1.5 minutes out of this 7 minutes.

3. Rest of the CD is repeat after repeat after repeat with sometimes scenes cleverly looped to make it look like a scene of 2 minutes where it's actually only 10 seconds worth of material. There are also many scenes that are used in various different scenarios. They have maybe one or two scenes from military that are used over and over again at the end of various different 'scenes' to show military shooting at different locations...

The best shot however I find is where they show the red's the next day, mourning over their fallen comrades.

It's somewhere around the 13.50 mark.

Why is this the best shot?

While I deplore all violence and absolutely mourn all victims of this situation so far, looking at that scene did make me wonder.

From the 14 Picture Frames on the table, there is only 1 frame with a 'normal' picture of the deceased person.

All the other frames contain Police File Mug Shots...!

13 Former criminals died that night.

Gives you something to think about.

Normal people did not die out there because they stay out of trouble, except for some unlucky people that got into the cross fire and of course the soldiers that where sent into battle for which I have the greatest respect, given that they had only received half the mandate necessary to clean this up.

People looking for trouble, according to those pictures, did die that night.

Sorry for being so cold-hearted, but it puts a slightly different perspective on things I think.

In other words the army were able to shoot only villains...or the whole of the red shirt demonstration are criminals?

Don't be silly, the 'police file mugshots' are the pictures from their ID cards...everybody with a Thai ID has a picture looking like this....

[way2muchcoffee]

....the army wrote the present constitution to try to prevent Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power

I've hear this stated numerous times, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest it.

Would you please explain precisely which clauses in the 1997 constitution were removed, and which clauses were added to the new constitution that were specifically aimed at preventing Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power? Please show the connection between the changes to a deliberate attempt to weaken Thaksin-policy supporters.

Edited May 1, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[difos57]

....the army wrote the present constitution to try to prevent Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power

I've hear this stated numerous times, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest it.

Would you please explain precisely which clauses in the 1997 constitution were removed, and which clauses were added to the new constitution that were specifically aimed at preventing Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power? Please show the connection between the changes to a deliberate attempt to weaken Thaksin-policy supporters.

Yes, please explain!

We are now moving up the chain of the red shirt terrorist supporters.

[animatic]

....the army wrote the present constitution to try to prevent Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power

I've hear this stated numerous times, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest it.

Would you please explain precisely which clauses in the 1997 constitution were removed, and which clauses were added to the new constitution that were specifically aimed at preventing Thaksin-policy supporters from gaining power? Please show the connection between the changes to a deliberate attempt to weaken Thaksin-policy supporters.

Yes, please explain!

We are now moving up the chain of the red shirt terrorist supporters.

Yes I would love to see this fact by fact exposé of constitutional change

that prevented Thaksin supporters from winning the 2007 election....

Oh wasit there are laws that apply to ALL PARTIES caught in electoral fraud

to lose their election Commission registered leadership if a leader is implicated in fraud.

That MUST be it, the constitution disallows Election Fraud,

so it MUST BE a conspiracy against the Thaksin crew.