Cheese Making Course Wanted

[Campfire]

Hi ya

Looking for someone in or about BKK ( will travel if need be ) to teach me the fine art of cheese making. Hard, soft, all kinds. Am thinking of small comercial scale and if anyone intersted in enterprize drop me a line.

Cheers!

[Samuian]

Start with "rennet"...ít's basically "rotten milk"", which smells like someone has a problem with his/her feets odor,

in nice shapes with very inventive names like "le President"... or "Bresse Blue"

Check this out:

[Campfire]

Thanks for the info. I saw this show back in Canada a while back and its what put the initial idea in my head. I think it is possible to learn to make cheese from books, online etc. There is the finer details and hands on approch that sets the information in my brain, helps me to learn. Wow $3,000 batch is alotta cheese! If i make that much will have to export!

Cheers

[Campfire]

I have a tee shirt that saids " not all who wander are lost " So maybe there is hope for this sinner yet LOL.

[Samuian]

I have a tee shirt that saids " not all who wander are lost " So maybe there is hope for this sinner yet LOL.

Well I say "Go Ahead"!

But it's along winding road - cleanliness.... is of utmost importance and the right place for the cheese to "ripen"... and - well something one can only learn over time - experience!

[kenjin]

I have a tee shirt that saids " not all who wander are lost " So maybe there is hope for this sinner yet LOL.

Well I say "Go Ahead"!

But it's along winding road - cleanliness.... is of utmost importance and the right place for the cheese to "ripen"... and - well something one can only learn over time - experience!

I couldn't agree with you more. You will never learn it from a book.

[theseahorse]

As some of the other comments are saying, you're not going to be able to become a master cheese maker from reading a few books, but basic cheese making is very simple and once you've got your head round an easy fresh cheese, start looking into taking it further. There are plenty of books and stuff online that will show you how to make a simple cheese like a Queso Blanc or a Chevre and as long as you keep clean and treat it more like a scientific experiment rather than a normal recipe, you can get some great results.

There is a company here in Bangkok that deliver fresh cheeses and yogurts already and although their products are good, the only cheeses and yogurts that they offer are ones that could be made by an amatuer cook very easily (if the amatuer cook had the time).

Cheese making gets much harder, when you start looking at rind, blue and hard cheeses. Firstly, it takes practice to even press a cheese correctly ready for aging and then to start to understand the aging process and the mould/ rind that forms during that time takes a lot of experiance. As most cheese needs to be kept about at about 12 C when aging you'll need refridgeration that can be set at a higher temperture than normal. You're also be needing to keep the humidity at around 85-90% in the fridge.

Other issues you may find is getting hold of the specialist ingrediants. I've never managed to even find rennet over here and have just got some sent over from the UK for the few times I've made cheese since being in BKK, but if you're looking into making cheese commecially you'll need a steady supply, but I'm sure you can get it here somewhere, there has been numerous threads about it here in T.V. You also need more than just rennet to make most cheeses. Mould ripened cheeses like Camembert need Penicilluim Candidium for the mould rind, Romano needs Capilase and Parmesan needs Lipase to give them their distinct flavours. These are all very easy to get hold of by mail order back in Europe, but I'd have no idea about getting a commercial amount sent to Thailand.

Good luck in setting things up, I'd love to see some cheeses other than soft cheeses being made here. I'm no master cheese maker, just a chef that has made a bit of cheese over the years, but PM me if you want some more info.

[NanaFoods]

Start with "rennet"...ít's basically "rotten milk"", which smells like someone has a problem with his/her feets odor,

in nice shapes with very inventive names like "le President"... or "Bresse Blue"

Check this out:

Rennet is not "rotten milk"... rennet is a natural complex of enzymes produced in the stomach's of mammals. It functions to help digest the mother's milk, which is why is it more prevalent in baby animals stomachs. In the old days, a piece of lamb or baby cow stomach was taken and dropped into a vat of milk to make cheese. Nowadays, rennet can come in the form of extractions from either animal stomachs or GMO microbes. There are also vegetable sources as well.

[thaigerd]

Start with "rennet"...ít's basically "rotten milk"", which smells like someone has a problem with his/her feets odor,

in nice shapes with very inventive names like "le President"... or "Bresse Blue"

Check this out:

Rennet is not "rotten milk"... rennet is a natural complex of enzymes produced in the stomach's of mammals. It functions to help digest the mother's milk, which is why is it more prevalent in baby animals stomachs. In the old days, a piece of lamb or baby cow stomach was taken and dropped into a vat of milk to make cheese. Nowadays, rennet can come in the form of extractions from either animal stomachs or GMO microbes. There are also vegetable sources as well.

:jap: Thank you!

You are invited for a lovely dinner tonight here in Phuket, just made the shopping.

Wagyu tenderloin from the grill, imported mushrooms,fresh salads.

Gerd

[NanaFoods]

:jap: Thank you!

You are invited for a lovely dinner tonight here in Phuket, just made the shopping.

Wagyu tenderloin from the grill, imported mushrooms,fresh salads.

Gerd

Heh, wish I could join....sounds delicious.

... a bit too far for me, though.

[theseahorse]

Start with "rennet"...ít's basically "rotten milk"", which smells like someone has a problem with his/her feets odor,

in nice shapes with very inventive names like "le President"... or "Bresse Blue"

Check this out:

Rennet is not "rotten milk"... rennet is a natural complex of enzymes produced in the stomach's of mammals. It functions to help digest the mother's milk, which is why is it more prevalent in baby animals stomachs. In the old days, a piece of lamb or baby cow stomach was taken and dropped into a vat of milk to make cheese. Nowadays, rennet can come in the form of extractions from either animal stomachs or GMO microbes. There are also vegetable sources as well.

That's how I first read the comment, but I think he meant - You start with rennet. [Cheese is] basically rotten milk. etc.

[Campfire]

Thanks all for the comments, Yes i agree books don,t capture the detail needed to make the Cheddar I have in mind. This is why I,m interested in taking a short course on the subject. I,m in Bangkok if someone with experience would like to show me some of the ropes I would greatly appreicate it. Also I,m looking for a farmer with lots a cows to partner up with in a venture.

Cheers

[jazzbo]

If the OP is really serious about cheese as a commercial venture in Thailand, then IMHO you should take one (or more) of those 2 week to 2 month cheese-making courses in France, Italy, UK, or USA to really immerse yourself... and if you are unwilling to make that kind of time and financial investment, then your chances of producing a cheese in Thailand of any kind that would interest some major restaurant, hotel or upscale food shop is just about zero.

... from an award-winning artisinal cheese maker in Vermont, USA:

"My introduction to cheese making began in 1982, when I stumbled into France at a young and impressionable age. I remained in France for over 2 years working on various goat cheese operations and sheep farms and trying to taste all of the hundreds of varieties of cheese that France is so proud of. This road trip to France changed my life

We built a cheese cellar in 1996 where I could ripen cheese in a proper form and expand my line of cheeses. It was an exciting time... This year we added a second ripening cellar. One cellar will be for aged natural rind cheeses and washed rind cheeses."

[Campfire]

If the OP is really serious about cheese as a commercial venture in Thailand, then IMHO you should take one (or more) of those 2 week to 2 month cheese-making courses in France, Italy, UK, or USA to really immerse yourself... and if you are unwilling to make that kind of time and financial investment, then your chances of producing a cheese in Thailand of any kind that would interest some major restaurant, hotel or upscale food shop is just about zero.

... from an award-winning artisinal cheese maker in Vermont, USA:

"My introduction to cheese making began in 1982, when I stumbled into France at a young and impressionable age. I remained in France for over 2 years working on various goat cheese operations and sheep farms and trying to taste all of the hundreds of varieties of cheese that France is so proud of. This road trip to France changed my life

We built a cheese cellar in 1996 where I could ripen cheese in a proper form and expand my line of cheeses. It was an exciting time... This year we added a second ripening cellar. One cellar will be for aged natural rind cheeses and washed rind cheeses."

Hmmm are you saying that local Cheese maker here are not up to stuff? Not capable of teaching me to learn how to make ONE kind of cheese? Chances zero is laughable. I have heard this before from guys who like to think making Cheese is rocket science LOL. You just follow the formula and Bob,s your uncle, do your tests, make sure condidtions are correct, have the right facilities and maintain. My Dad was a histochemist and immunopathologist and Believe me you want to talk science, I can handle it. I have already read some interesting papers on bacteria, raw vs homo, renets, etc. I have researched a green way to lower cellar and production costs, have with a lot of foot work found a vat maker here in Bangkok who will make me a vat at 25% the cost of buying one from overseas, like I believe all the current maker did. Zero chances for some folk but not this lad LOL.

[jazzbo]

Zero chances for some folk but not this lad LOL... he has already read some interesting papers

http://www.dairyfood.../training.shtml

as for Thailand you can read this re: mozzarella:

http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/entrepreneurs_and_business_plans/exotic_european_cheeses_find_t.php

[Campfire]

As some of the other comments are saying, you're not going to be able to become a master cheese maker from reading a few books, but basic cheese making is very simple and once you've got your head round an easy fresh cheese, start looking into taking it further. There are plenty of books and stuff online that will show you how to make a simple cheese like a Queso Blanc or a Chevre and as long as you keep clean and treat it more like a scientific experiment rather than a normal recipe, you can get some great results.

There is a company here in Bangkok that deliver fresh cheeses and yogurts already and although their products are good, the only cheeses and yogurts that they offer are ones that could be made by an amatuer cook very easily (if the amatuer cook had the time).

Cheese making gets much harder, when you start looking at rind, blue and hard cheeses. Firstly, it takes practice to even press a cheese correctly ready for aging and then to start to understand the aging process and the mould/ rind that forms during that time takes a lot of experiance. As most cheese needs to be kept about at about 12 C when aging you'll need refridgeration that can be set at a higher temperture than normal. You're also be needing to keep the humidity at around 85-90% in the fridge.

Other issues you may find is getting hold of the specialist ingrediants. I've never managed to even find rennet over here and have just got some sent over from the UK for the few times I've made cheese since being in BKK, but if you're looking into making cheese commecially you'll need a steady supply, but I'm sure you can get it here somewhere, there has been numerous threads about it here in T.V. You also need more than just rennet to make most cheeses. Mould ripened cheeses like Camembert need Penicilluim Candidium for the mould rind, Romano needs Capilase and Parmesan needs Lipase to give them their distinct flavours. These are all very easy to get hold of by mail order back in Europe, but I'd have no idea about getting a commercial amount sent to Thailand.

Good luck in setting things up, I'd love to see some cheeses other than soft cheeses being made here. I'm no master cheese maker, just a chef that has made a bit of cheese over the years, but PM me if you want some more info.

Thank you Seahorse! very kind of you to offer. I will keep you on refference when I,m getting down to business. Nice to know not all the cheese makers here in Thai are living in the country, but I can see why they do.Yes its interesting that the humidity needs to be so high, normal refrigers try to remove the damp. I will need a fair size room to store the amount of cheese i,m planing so I,m looking at cooling exchange units. I,m going to stick to making just one kind of Cheese for now to keep it simple and not press my luck.I find it interesting that the aging and storage and the way you do it can give different flavors and texture. Thanks again

[kenjin]

My honest opinion, if your planning to make huge quantities your biggest problem will be FDA approval.

You will also need quite a large investment. 2,000 liters Vat, Vac Pack machine, Pasteurizer, large walk-in refrigerators, electricity, gas, marketing packaging, staff, let alone the factory cost, rent or buy building and running money to cover expenses. 2,000 liters of milk per 5 days 10,000 liters per week, minimum storage 3 months. 12 weeks at 10,000liters before you are able to start selling. Huge investment required.

You could buy from me and resell it?

[Campfire]

My honest opinion, if your planning to make huge quantities your biggest problem will be FDA approval.

You will also need quite a large investment. 2,000 liters Vat, Vac Pack machine, Pasteurizer, large walk-in refrigerators, electricity, gas, marketing packaging, staff, let alone the factory cost, rent or buy building and running money to cover expenses. 2,000 liters of milk per 5 days 10,000 liters per week, minimum storage 3 months. 12 weeks at 10,000liters before you are able to start selling. Huge investment required.

You could buy from me and resell it?

Oh hey Nick

I understand your geared up to 1,200 ltrs per day now. Perhaps you could offer some info on how you got your fda approval? Vat I have a guy who will make for 70K, Vac pac saw tons of them at the trade show last month, I am only making Cheddar and with testing machines you do not need to pasteurize. I have designed a cool room that operates very green at a low cost and will recover the install cost in 4 years. Energy same same, staff, got to love burmese when it comes to hard work. Rent of a country property is reasonable, might even set up right on the dairy farm.Really you should be posting this on my other forum where I,m looking for a partner or supply agreement. Don,t forget that I don,t have to make 200kg of Cheese every day right out of the gate, I will only produce what I think I will be able to sell from the start. Thank you for the offer to sell your Cheese, once I get rolling and if I find I,m in a supply crunch I will take you up on that. Cheers

[kenjin]

RAW MILK in Thailand, No need for pasteurization! please tell me your joking. If you don't take any of my other advise please take only this advice. Don't make Cheese from Raw Milk in Thailand

I have told someone about this before on here but to save you from being responsible for a bout of very serious food poisoning. DO pasteurize.

Raw milk should only be used if you can verify the cleanliness of the milk suppliers also raw milk should be used within only a few hrs of the cow being milked.

[Kilgore Trout]

Cheers for the DIY initiative! Im sure that you can do it. I had posted earlier about making my own mozzeralla which I intend to use for making chicago style pizza in LOS, let me know how your schooling goes and I would love to trade ideas etc.

[NanaFoods]

Cheers for the DIY initiative! Im sure that you can do it. I had posted earlier about making my own mozzeralla which I intend to use for making chicago style pizza in LOS, let me know how your schooling goes and I would love to trade ideas etc.

Need buffalo milk for real mozzarella.

[Campfire]

RAW MILK in Thailand, No need for pasteurization! please tell me your joking. If you don't take any of my other advise please take only this advice. Don't make Cheese from Raw Milk in Thailand

I have told someone about this before on here but to save you from being responsible for a bout of very serious food poisoning. DO pasteurize.

Raw milk should only be used if you can verify the cleanliness of the milk suppliers also raw milk should be used within only a few hrs of the cow being milked.

"One controversy in the cheese field centers on whether it is necessary to pasteurize the milk that goes into cheese. Pasteurization was promoted because of the persistence of Mycobacterium tuberculosis, a pathogen or disease-causing bacteria that occurs in milk products. The United States allows cheeses that will be aged for over sixty days to be made from unpasteurized milk; however, it requires that many cheeses be made from pasteurized milk. Despite these regulations, it is possible to eat cheeses made from unpasteurized milk to no ill effect. In fact, cheese connoisseurs insist that pasteurizing destroys the natural bacteria necessary for quality cheese manufacture. They claim that modern cheese factories are so clean and sanitary that pasteurization is unnecessary. So far, the result of this controversy has merely been that connoisseurs avoid pasteurized milk cheeses. "

Read more: How cheese is made - manufacture, making, history, used, processing, structure, product, machine, Raw Materials, The Manufacturing Process of cheese, Quality Control http://www.madehow.com/Volume-

1/Cheese.html#ixzz0uBYjPzhC

I read a scientific paper about this and the gist of it was that the bad bacteria die off in the aging process and raw milk has the lactic culture you want in making Cheddar. This same lactis enzyme is what help the body digest Cheese a problem many asians have. Raw milk give the Cheese a better flavor and is a lot more healthy for you. All the same I think a few quick tests with large incoming batches of milk could save money in the long run with avoiding spoil batches and only finding out down the road that the milk has some other kind of contaminate you don,t want.

[Campfire]

http://livingawholelife.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-raw-milk-safe.html

Interesting blog on the benifits of raw milk. I noted that they do insist that if the farmer is not running a clean ship sort of speak, then there could be problems. As far a making Cheese is concerned I can see it would be prudent to insist that the farmer allow inspections and testing as part of any supply agreement. I believe the gov does this now with milk supplied to the depots.

[Campfire]

Cheers for the DIY initiative! Im sure that you can do it. I had posted earlier about making my own mozzeralla which I intend to use for making chicago style pizza in LOS, let me know how your schooling goes and I would love to trade ideas etc.

Cheers thanks, yes problem with pizza here is you never get good cheese or enough! I,m starting to think my education may take the form of online LOL. I read a few months back about the guy who brought in Buffalo,s and is cross breeding here to produce milk for mozzeralla. You have access to his milk? or another source? Nice thing about mozz you don,t have to wait a long time to get eating.

Cheers

[Campfire]

lactose intolerance

http://livingawholelife.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-raw-milk-easier-to-digest.html

This is a big problem here in asia as they do not have the enzymes naturaly occuring in there bodies. Europeans have this due to millium of eating Cheese. I believe this is a good sales angle to get asians to buy.

[Campfire]

Yes here it is, if you test the milk, have sterile plant, make correctly, and age in the right enviro, it is preferred to use raw milk.

http://books.google.co.th/books?id=vz-2Y7npqj0C&pg=PA550&lpg=PA550&dq=aging+cheddar+safe&source=bl&ots=3H6sESA846&sig=V-ygphT-CjYMLY2c83Kfvh8MzD8&hl=en&ei=on9GTMvJGY_evQOZ8tnDAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=aging%20cheddar%20safe&f=false

[NanaFoods]

Yes here it is, if you test the milk, have sterile plant, make correctly, and age in the right enviro, it is preferred to use raw milk.

http://books.google....%20safe&f=false

Yes, raw milk is preferred, IF you have a clean and safe supply.

Good luck confirming that in Thailand, which is the point kenjin was making.

[Kilgore Trout]

Cheers for the DIY initiative! Im sure that you can do it. I had posted earlier about making my own mozzeralla which I intend to use for making chicago style pizza in LOS, let me know how your schooling goes and I would love to trade ideas etc.

Need buffalo milk for real mozzarella.

There are plenty of buffalos in Thailand, couldn't their milk be used?

[angiud]

Mozzarella is made of cow milk. Mozzarella di bufala is made from buffalo milk

[Campfire]

Yes here it is, if you test the milk, have sterile plant, make correctly, and age in the right enviro, it is preferred to use raw milk.

http://books.google....%20safe&f=false

Yes, raw milk is preferred, IF you have a clean and safe supply.

Good luck confirming that in Thailand, which is the point kenjin was making.

Thats where as I was saying the testing comes in. This is standard practice anyway. Really its a matter of how much of the bad stuff there is, too much and it will surive the ageing process but under a certain amount is fine. Another thing to watch out for is antibiotics in the milk, but there are tests for that too. I was just checking out a bio chip that lets you know in 6 minutes! If your supplier is your regular source it wont take long to see if you need to change to a new guy. I know kenjin is getting his from many places and some at a distance so maybe testing is not an option for him.It all comes down to knowing your supplier. Raw milk rules!