Western With Thai Boyfriend Seeking Insights

[migca]

I don't know if I should post here since I've never been to Thailand, let alone lived there like the members of this forum.

Here's my story and the help I would like from any people out there that can supply it: I'm in my mid 20s, originally from southern Europe, but lived most of my life and was educated in the US. After college and an internship I realized I was fed up with the US and decided to return to Europe -- I travelled around and ended up settling in London and getting a job.

That was 2 years ago. Six months ago I met a thai guy in a soho pub and details aside we ended up developing a relationship and moved in together. I like him quite a lot and the relationship is good but sometimes I do feel there's a cultural barrier I cannot begin to understand. I've read a lot about Thailand and on Thai people in books and on the net and have garnered quite a bit of knowledge that has proved very demystifying.

However, there are many things in him, his thainess so to say, that baffle me, and that definitely contribute to the relationship dynamics. So, if any of you guys out there with more experience in thai culture and also thai boys can perhaps elucidate me on any points I would be grateful.

He, as far as I know, comes from a fairly poor family from Bangkok itself, not the provinces. He's about my age and with the help of his brother he tells me he put himself through college in bangkok and got a degree in accountacy. He worked for a few years in a bank and then a import-export co., where he tells me proudly he used to earn almost 30,000 baht (I'm guessing that's pretty good), and managed to buy a 1 million baht house in the outskirts of bangkok. A year ago his brother, who owns a business, went bankrupt, and S., as I'll call my boyfriend, felt obligated because of the help his brother had given him with schooling, to use his savings and I'm guessing perhaps more than that to bail him out. Then, after this crisis which left him financially unwell he jumped at an invitation by a former schoolmate to come work in a thai restaurant that the schoolmate had opened in london -- he's now a waiter there and after five years he hopes to get a residence visa.

Now from the stories I've read here in the forum I know catastrophe stories are frequently made up by thai boys, but the fact is that though I have a lot more money than he does he consistently resists any benign attempts of mine to pay for things in any circumstance, be it restaurants, groceries, etc.

Another thing I have seen several times is the comparison of thai-farang relationship to those of victorian times. Now in financial terms that does apply in my case, since the only financial benefit he gets from the relationship is living in my flat, which I already had and can afford, free of charge, and the odd gift.

But, in other ways there is something oddly old-fashioned about the relationship and sometimes I feel very ambivalent about that: he does act a bit like a victorian wife, fussing over me, doing all housework, cooking, laundry, while dogmatically refusing to let me do any of it. When I confront on why he tells me repeatedly that he is supposed to take care of me. He also tells me at times that I should stay with him because no western boyfriend will "follow me" (his words) like he does, which to him means that I can make all decisions -- for example when I propose doing something he immediately agrees, he always insists I pick any movie we go out to see, or any restaurant we might go to. Used as I was to western men this is all a bit shocking -- it's like he assumes I'm the superior partner in the relationsip which to westerners is a bit of a troubling concept nowadays.

Another thing is jealousy, which I have also seen talked about in the forum -- he's very jealous but not in a loud or angry way, more in a insistent and insidious manner. He'll quietly ask me about all the things I did during the day and when I provide no specific task done for one or two hour slot during the day he quietly suggests I was "with another boyfriend".

Another element that ties into jealousy is the sex: he likes a lot of it every day, and always with him concentrating on my needs. Sometimes I feel like he wants to make me orgasm enough times each day that I won't be able, which I don't want, to have anymore sex with anyone else. And when I'm exhausted from so much daily sex plus work and not much in the mood some night or another he still insists on trying to arouse me although I tell him I don't want it -- and when he fails to he insists I've been having sex with other people.

The other day I got frustrated with those accusations and while asserting that I wasn't seeing anyone else and didn't wish to do so, I grabbed his chin to lock his eyes on mine so he would finally understand my sincerity. That only led to him becoming quiet and submissive and asking me repeatedly during the next few days if I was angry. That's another topic popular here in the forum -- anger: I am a very cool guy temper wise, and I wonder if that's why he respects me so much. I was amazed that he would interpret my gently forcing his chin to the side to look into his eyes and show my sincerity as a violent or angry gesture.

Another element is the language issue. At first I thought his english was relatively poor but since then I've discovered that he learned most of his english in thailand through book language courses so that his grammar is very good and his vocabulary rather wide but his pronunciation very bad making the words difficult to identify -- but that has been changing slowly.

He also seems to have a great predilection for western people. He told me he always wanted a westwern boyfriend, and when I asked him why he didn't get one in thailand he said foreigners there were too old (I hope I'm causing no offence out there) and that they prefered dark skinned boys.

Well this is it for now, I have other issues to go over, so I'll do another posting soon, but feel free to comment and provide me any insight into the thai mind. Thanks

[PeaceBlondie]

Being subservient to the farang is not uncommon. Jealousy is quite common. If his vocab and grammar are good and his pronunciation is terrible, that's more typical of an educated Thai, than of somebody who was a money-boy. I'm older (not offended by your comment) and yes, most of the farang who are looking for young Thai partners are older men, and we either prefer dark skin, or don't mind it (whereas whiter skin is much preferred by almost all Thais).

It's hard to comment on the 'problem' of having sex too often. What a novel concept.

[ChrisP]

Well, I've discovered several insights about Thia guys that do seem to parallel yours, to some extent...

Yes, they see it as their "role" to take care of you.... and you cannot change that perspective. Many (not all) are quite subservient in many ways too.

Sex is also probably a way to 'satisfy" your needs... and possibly as a way to check on your possible infidelity, too.

We're told Thais generally are a calm, peaceful lot....

I don't buy it. I think it's confused with their general "subservient" quality. I've found there's often an underlying anger in many of the Thai guys I've met.. and it's just waiting for a way (ANY way) to show itself. Often the smallest, most ridiculous thing will bring on an outburst in some way... I've often asked my Thai what are you REALLY angry about - because he admits to being moody and difficult sometimes. And he can't (or won't) tell me. And his anger doesn't just come out only at me....

Look, Thailand is the world capital for Penis Hacking....! If that's not an extreme form of jealous anger.. I don't know what is..?

And yes, all that attention will feel suffocating after a while.

Good luck with your Thai!

ChrisP

Edited June 13, 2005 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Migca,

thanks for an honest and open post.

1. Regarding differences in libido- you're relatively young, but everyone can have different needs. Maybe you need to discuss this openly with your friend? Perhaps if he's horny when you're not you can help him out with a hand job or something. Couples with an older and younger partner often experience this kind of problem.

2. Thailand *is* in the Victorian era right now, as far as I can tell. So what you say about your guy's Victorian tendencies is not surprising at all.

3. I agree with Chris above that Thais are hotheaded. You can often find out from what a culture emphasizes as values which things it has the greatest problems with- the Asian emphasis on control, calmness, and cool emotions is related, I think, to the PROBLEMS of hotheadedness and loss of control which frequently occur.

"Steven"

[peter991]

Migca: Thanks for the interesting post and thanks for the sensible replies from Chris and Steven.

My relationship with my Thai guy has similar parallels. He is a former bar boy (Pattaya) but originally from an Issan village.

He shows exactly the same traits as your Thai bf, Migca. He is very protective, as shown when I was injured in a motorcycle accident in his village one night. He insisted on taking me to the local hospital to get my toe sutured, then phoned his family - who stayed up all night looking after me.

He is also very possessive. Not a problem when I am with him in his village, but if we travel to Pattaya, it is okay for him to visit his Thai friends, but he kept checking up on me by phoning me every 30 minutes or so, to make sure I was not 'with another boy.'

I managed to defuse things to a large extent by having a good heart-to-heart chat with one one evening. I told him that he must always tell me the truth and I promised to do the same with him. As a result I have been given information that I didn't really need to hear about his past, but I am glad of his honesty.

As to 'too much sex,' I guess it is just your Thai's way of making sure you have no excuses for straying or 'butterfly'.

If I can ask one question about him, please: How does he handle the cold weather in England? My Thai bf wants to visit Australia early next year. Sure, the Australian summer is hot (up to 52C here), but winters can be very cold. The last 3 nights have ben down to 2C.

Peter

[migca]

Thanks for the responses so far.

In reply to petter991's question: the answer is that S. handled England's winter badly. He kept getting colds and complained of getting tired easily. Even now in June when the weather's pretty nice by London standards his complaints about how cold it is at night are a constant refrain. He insists on wearing gloves sometimes, with temperatures around 18-20 celsius, and he puts on tons of t-shirts, sweatshirts, and long pants to go to bed -- and nightly pesters me when I sleep in either the nud_e or underwear. He doesn't seem to understand I'm hot even though I repeat it over and over and now I often compromise on wearing a t-shirt just so he'll leave me alone. I grew up in a part of the US that has fairly cold and snowy winters so I'm rarely cold in London. Eventually I wake up in the middle of the night sweating and I'll take off the t-shirt, and in the morning he'll scold me for removing it.

As regards anger and the replies concerning it -- I've never felt the simmering Thai anger you refer to. He's very calm usually, but he can be very jealous only in a quiet insistent way. He's always afraid of making me "angry" which I rarely get, and will ask me if I'm just silent for a bit if I'm angry with him. The main extreme emotion he displays is sadness with crying when I go for work-related trips: he'll hang on to me tightly crying and in a mournful voice forecast that I won't return, that I'll find another boyfriend, that I'll decide to throw him out of the house when I return.

That's his main disagreeable trait in fact: that he voices horrible suspicions, almost certainties that I'll abandon him or/and that I'm cheating on him. None of those are remotely true and in my view I've never given him any reason to think so. Even though I deny everything and try to convince him of my honesty he constantly repeats the allegations and is very jealous. That's where I would really like some help from all of you here: how to convince him of my honesty, because the constant jealous interrogations and carping are very annoying. Petter991, you managed to defuse that jealousy situation but I've tried heart-to heart talks. Help!

As regards money matters I think I'm very lucky after reading many of the older postings. He definitely is very enterprising, hard-working, and capable of budgeting. He gets 700 pounds per month from his restaurant job. He saves 350, sends 100 to his family, and spends the rest on movies, restaurants, etc. He nevrr asks for money, though he does not pay for living with me, and I buy most of the groceries and food. At first it was a question of pride for him to pay his part in the outings we did to restaurants, movies, concerts, daytrips, but of course with London prices, my more extravagant tastes and his salary, he has with time begun to let me pay for those things. He keeps a little book where he jots down all his expenses.

As I said he bought a 1 million baht house in the outskirts of bangkok and is renting it to pay for the mortgage. His goal in the UK is to stay for a while and save at least 2 million baht and when he returns to bangkok to open a small business, a minimarket or something similar he says -- how realistic is this I would like to know?

This whole pride thing of his about expenses and paying his own share relates to another theme of his. Despite his often subservient attitude that I described in the last posting he often worries aloud that I would look down on him, and especially my family, which he feels nervous about meeting. He tells me often "I'm from poor family, but I got degree, I worked in bank, etc, etc., your parents must not look down on me".

Now, another question that has popped up in our relationship is the whole differences in concepts of gay, openly gay ,and etc. in thailand vs. europe. When we met he asked me " are you real gay or passive gay?". I think that meant he wanted me to be a top, but I'm not sure. He insists on playing a mainly passive role throughout sex and focuse on "pleasing me" as he says, and when I try to look after his needs he says don't worry. At the same time the other day we were having a talk about preferences in bed and he said "the perfect gay" plays both passive and active roles. I'm a bit confused naturally about his ideas.

He's not openly gay with his family but he says he'll tell them and present me as his boyfriend once his father, who's very old, dies. His father had children into his sixties and S. was the last, and the father is apparently chinese while the mother's thai -- he says "chinese don't understand gay and father's very old". S. is however very openly affectionate in public holding my hand in the middle of central london, or insisting that I lay on the grass with my head on his lap while in a park. I also love what I now know to be thai kisses (I had no idea what they were at first, I started wondering if my deoderant wasn't powerful enough), when he sort of sniffs me. It's such a delightful and novel thing, more intimate than "real" kisses in a certain way. It's like he wants to breath me in, and it's usually accompanied by a soft nudge.

Another thing that puzzles me is that he keeps saying everything will be perfect once he takes me to some temple in thailand and we "swear in front of the Buddha". He's unable to explain clearly with it means so if you have any idea...

He was planning to take me to thailand next december and was very enthusiastic, and so was I, but now he's not sure he wants to go though he misses it because (get a load of this): "I think better and I'm afraid. Many handsome gay in thailand, they will steal you". Again any amount of reassurance doesn't change his mind.

But he does want me to go and live with him in thailand eventually (5-10 years on), which is why I'm anxious to go there and get an idea what it's like. I have some reasonable inherited financial resources and I have a good job besides which allows me to save, and some qualifications if I need to get a job in thailand. I've never lived anywhere but western countries though and I do worry if I will like thailand. He says we could live in his house in the outskirts but I've always liked to live in central areas and I wonder how good the house is -- it's worth 1 million baht he says. What do you think? Is it very crummy probably?

I've looked at flats in central bangkok on the net and some seemed very nice and ridiculously cheap compared to London. I'm wondering if I should buy. My price range would be 3-5 million bt. Is it easy to rent them out a few months a year ?

Moving on, there's another aspect I find fascianting which is buddhism and his practice of it -- I took a class on buddhism and hinduism in college so I do have a little bit of knowledge. His practice of buddhism is a lot different from the more philosophical bare bones buddhism I studied; he talks about praying to the buddha for things and has a bunch of superstitions with the whole central thing of "life is suffering, gain detachment, etc". For example, I bought a flat in london, a renovation of a victorian house. He found it very odd that I didn't prefer a completely new modern "first hand" flat, and then worried for weeks about the "spirits" of all the former owners. He asked what I believed and when I explained I was an atheist and what that meant he was very silent and pensive. Now every time I pass by the restaurant where he works he motions me to a buddha statue in a corner and says " look" or "you show respect". I wonder if it's the beginning of a conversion campaign..

Well this is it for now. any further comments on any thing very appreciated.

[ProThaiExpat]

I wonder why you have the "need" to understand your Thai b/fs behaviour. Perhaps it is a function of your youth. While I lived in the U.S., and being basically very analytical, I used to be compelled to try to "understand" my lovers. I really think it is a western societal thing!

Nothing you have recounted sounds "odd", out of place or somehting you should be wary of in regard to your b/f. He sounds typically Thai.

You will not be able to change him!!! If you like the qualities he demonstrates, go for it, if not, move on.

Yes it is cultural, yes it is typically Thai gay, appealing to some, not so to others. Many gays in the west, reading your posts, will be enraptured as your b/f will sound ideal to them. Since your both of a young age, your relationship dynamic will manifest all of the bumps of relationships at that age. Neither of you have the advantage of bringing experience, maturity or acquired wisdom to bear on the "bumps".

It is the price you both pay for "young love".

Relish in the diversity or find a "bookend" or "mirror queen" to hook up with.

With a great deal of time, perhaps five years or more, your b/f may get over his insecurity regarding your ability to maintain a long, committed, exlcusive relationship and certainly everything you can do to re-inforce that concept, particulary marriage, would go a long way toward achieving that. I think a trained pshychogist might be able to get to the bottom of his insecuritty, whether it is the "gossip" in Thailnd regarding the "wandering eye" falang who come here to "try out the boys", the the short lived relationhip norm among falang, the unavailabiliity of young falang in Thailand, basic inferiority about looks, penis size, body shape or other things common in all gays, etc, you can go on forever trying to "understand", and once you have, if that is possble, what difference does it make?

Trying to understand why men enjoy certain sexual events might explain the origin for a certain sexual proclivity, but it won't change anything and your lking it or not liking it will not change it either.

The Thai expression and pholosphy expressed as "mai pen rai" says it all to me. Pershaps the satisfaction gained by you by "understanding" might make you happier and perhaps worth the effort. For me, I just accept, enjoy and not "project" my western orientation onto my Thai.

My Thai will never be as truthful, honest, understanding, productive, organized or pecuniary as me, but then he is another person from another country and the degree of my happiness with him is directly proportional to my willingness to accept him as he is!!!

[ChrisP]

The main extreme emotion he displays is sadness with crying when I go for work-related trips: he'll hang on to me tightly crying and in a mournful voice forecast that I won't return, that I'll find another boyfriend, that I'll decide to throw him out of the house when I return.

That's his main disagreeable trait in fact: that he voices horrible suspicions, almost certainties that I'll abandon him or/and that I'm cheating on him. None of those are remotely true and in my view I've never given him any reason to think so. Even though I deny everything and try to convince him of my honesty he constantly repeats the allegations and is very jealous. That's where I would really like some help from all of you here: how to convince him of my honesty, because the constant jealous interrogations and carping are very annoying. Petter991, you managed to defuse that jealousy situation but I've tried heart-to heart talks. Help!

Sorry, we've ALL had this. It's Thai. The only way for you to handle it is EXTREME patience. I've tried all other approaches, nothing works. I agree with PTExpat - for all his reasons. After about 5 years of being together.. it might fade...!

You could try "tough love"... ignoring his calls, or making comparisons between him/his freinds and you/yours... but they don't often "see" parralels well..

If all this REALLY drives you crazy, then find another asian guy (if that's what floats your boat... but beware... they ALL come with baggage.. (as do we....)

ChrisP

[meadish_sweetball]

Lots of the traits you describe I recognize from my relationships with Thai women as well.

[Ijustwannateach]

Just a few more thoughts based on what I've read here:

1. Buddhism in Thailand is a hodge-podge overlaid onto traditional animism, with a healthy dose of Brahmin mysticism sprinkled on top. It is heavily associated with family rituals (birth, marriage, burial), and, yes, shamanism and superstition. As with many belief systems, the "pure" form of Buddhism is only a theory; what happens in practice can be quite different. Going to the temple to "sanctify" your relationship might be a big deal indeed for your guy.

2. Racism is alive and well in Thailand- guys who are "darker" are perceived (and perceive themselves, sadly) to be socially inferior. Quite often those of lighter hue are also, as a result, higher social class (and richer). *Certain* foreigners who have dated various Thais also feel that those of Chinese-Thai descent often have some snobbery-related personality problems. So there could be some explanation for a bias by gay foreigners in Thailand towards one or another group of whatever colour. Plus part of the interest and spark for many foreigners here is the difference- why go all the way around the world and date what turns out to be another Western-thinking white guy?

If I were more cynical, I might add that the "you're the first farang I've dated" is considerd one of the oldest lines in the book locally here.

3. Thais in general (but never specifically, I'm sure) are very, very, very, very jealous. I attribute this to:

a. Thais often being cheated on by their partners (Thai or otherwise),

b. Thais often cheating on their partners (Thai or otherwise), and

c. Thais being very emotional and sentimental with their partners.

I hasten to add that I'm sure no one in this forum is in either category a. or b. with their Thai partner(s).

4. The submission you describe comes with obligation and a delayed price- there's no free lunch. It seems you are lucky enough to have a fairly self-sufficient young man, but if he should ever face ANY kinds of problems- consider yourself obligated and responsible (as a social superior with a relationship to an inferior would be in Thailand). Furthermore, this extends if necessary to the needs of his family, if your relationship continues long enough.

5. You should visit here not only once, but many, many times before you even consider moving here (especially for the sake of a Thai guy you've met outside). Ask lots of questions. Don't take everything on faith; ask for independent verification and evidence. Don't let him be the only source of information about his family and friends. If it involves any large sums of your money, make sure the paperwork is checked by a farang law firm working for you but familiar with Thai law. Make other Thai and local farang friends and get their perspective on your guy, too.

Just some thoughts. Hope they're not *too* cynical.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Hi Migca,

It's a real pleasure to read your posts.

My immediate reaction is that you're very lucky to have found each other. It's clear from what you say that you've put a lot of time and effort into finding out more and trying to understand better what makes for "Thainess" - if only more would be/do like you (sorry - I disagree with ProThaiExpat about this). Equally, your friend S is plainly a] educated and b] very mature (in thinking) by Thai standards - not least because of what he has achieve already and the way he manages money. At this point, I think it's right to emphasise that everything is just opinion based on personal experience and observation - it's never (all) Thai's are x or (all) Brits are y....... any more than (all) gays are z.

If I have one cause for a warning light to flicker in my mind, it's your saying "I like him quite a lot". My strong instinct is that S would describe his feeling for you as much deeper than that - "I love him, he is my boyfriend" (the swearing in front of the Buddha or maybe blessing he wants can be a kind of "marriage" but with no legal status). My sense is that this is a much more black and white distinction for Thai's than we commonly see it in the west generally and the UK in particular (where relationships are often somewhat more casual than S is probably used to in Thailand). S almost certainly feels that he has found his partner for life (and what you say about his long term plans for you both plainly supports that). Are you sure that your feelings are as strong for him as his are for you? Is he sure? I'm thinking he probably isn't; even though many Thai's are more extremely/overtly jealous, I still think that this is more about how it works between you and him. That's a personal thing for you to decide/resolve that has only a little to do with cultural differences.

When I first starting to come to Thailand, the thing I found most difficult to deal with from nearly all Thai's were the three little words the farang hears so much; no, not "I love you" but "up to you". Personally, I want to have as near as possible an equal relationship with a partner; equal but different, sure (if only because of the difference in wealth) - but still basically equal. That's very hard with most Thai's - nearly all will assign much higher status to the farang whether he wants it (deserves it?) or not. So, ironically, it's something that I find I have to give way on. Needless to say, along with the control I'm also taking on the responsibility. And, yes, it does feel very Victorian.

Just in passing, it's a very common Asian (not just Thai) attitude to prefer a new house if they can afford it - most Asians view houses like we view cars i.e. that it's a shame to have to get a second-hand one. The idea that what we call a "period" property can be very attractive is a very alien concept for them to accept. I must admit that I hadn't really taken on board the spirits factor, but there you go - just shows that we all have much to learn.

About the property prices and business start-up costs (for say a mini-market), I'm not really qualified to judge although my half-informed instinct is that he's not being unrealistic. To get a feel about the business side, you could do worse than look through the Thai businesses for sale on the Sunbelt Asia website:

http://www.sunbeltasia.com/

In any case, it's certainly good advice that you should get yourself(ves) some time in Thailand. So much of what you already know in principle from your reading will drop into place and give you a much better feel for the place and the people. Apart from that, it's clear that S knows far more first hand about London than you do about his home, so it's good to balance that out. Living in Thailand may not be for you for all sorts of reasons - career/work prospects, loss of direct access to things/people that really count for you etc; or it may be wonderful for you. S has to accept that you need to know and my instinct is that he will think you are more serious about your relationship because you do want to go there for at least one visit. Like others, I don't see any "magic bullet" to cure him of his jealousy and worries about the competition; your presistence in reassuring him will wear it down gradually, but we're talking almost geological time here..........

On a practical point for the longer term, it's generally much cheaper to rent a home in Thailand relative to buying it. In the UK, you'd typically be paying a rent for 10 years to equal the buying price; in Thailand it's more like 20 years. Point being that it's therefore cheap to try out first by renting.

Two things that haven't been mentioned about typical Thai character. First, "face" (as in losing face) is a hugely important aspect. From what you've said so far, it doesn't seem to have been a factor between you and S so far - but do watch out for it. Maybe that time when you reached for his chin and turned his head to look you in the eye came close to it? Second, it seems to be almost second nature for a Thai to repeatedly (almost constantly) to ask their partner "sabai dee mai" - literally "feeling good?" - and of course you must always reply. I haven't got into trying to analyse whether this springs from some deep-seated insecurity, but there are times I've wondered. Anyhow, Thai's seem to like/want this continual re-bonding and reassurance very much more than we find necessary in the west. Overall, don't take it for granted that he knows how you feel about something - he almost certainly wants to hear you say it and that's in spite of the fact that many Thai's keep their negative feelings hidden more than we do.

I hope that what you've got together continues to grow. My instinct is that it will.

[migca]

Thanks for your replies, everyone. I got much sensible advice from you:

I agree with PTE that a healthy dose of fatalism might help intead of such an intensely western analytical attitude. Your cynicism (I mean that in a good way) Ijustwannateach is also sobering -- I will watch my back when I come into Thailand and look into things; although my thai has never given reasons to distrust him, and saying I'm the first foreigner he's dated might be the oldest trick in the book but in this case I do think it's true. For several reasons: his english is strong on grammar and vocabulary but until recently horrid in pronunciation, so that I don't think he had had any real practice before, i.e., had to talk it with foreigners; also he expresses naive wonder with certain western aspects of myself and the more highly western places I've taken him to London that tell me his exposure to western people and certain practices was very low.

Steve2UK: thanks for your detailed reply to some of my concerns. What's is that whole "face" issue about, I don't understand it? And, yes, the "feeling good?" query is a constant.

Best,

Miguel

[Steve2UK]

Steve2UK: thanks for your detailed reply to some of my concerns. What's is that whole "face" issue about, I don't understand it? And, yes, the "feeling good?" query is a constant.

Best,

Miguel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Miguel,

"Face" is hugely important to oriental cultures. It's difficult to define except maybe by comparison with embarassment in western cultures. In the west, depending on individual character, a particular event or incident might be more or less embarassing to a person - but, essentially, the reaction tends to be minor and quite temporary. In oriental cultures, that minor embarassment is likely to be felt as a wounding personal disgrace and a cause for deep shame - leading maybe to seemingly irrational anger or at least sulking. Overall, the Thai sense of personal pride and dignity tends to be much more important - and therefore a cause for personal vulnerability. By western standards or values, it's not very rational.

I did a Google search on '"losing face" Thailand' and the results are interesting - you might want to do the same. One very good link with a lot of detailed insights (fairly surprising when you see where it is):

http://www.amari.com/biztraveller/generali...izetiquette.asp

Just a thought, you might want to show that page to S and ask him to tell you more about the Thai terms etc. Could be a very useful conversation to get started?

Finally, it's one thing to be careful and another to be cynical. Personally, I believe you can do things with a "good heart" and still keep your wits about you (even if it won't protect you from everything). Enjoy.

[ajarntrade]

Looking into someones eyes in Thailand is often times considered a challenge to fight. I'm not surprised that S thought you were angry at him.

ajarntrade

[migca]

Thanks so much, Steve2UK. Very enlightening link.

Miguel

[Steve2UK]

De nada - I was pleased to find it for my own benefit as well

[ChrisP]

Miguel..

Try the new book

"Thailand Fever"... written jointly by a Thai and Westerner.. about the relationship and cultural differences between Thai/Farangs in a relationship. It's "str8/hetero" oriented, but a relationship is a relationship....

Good stuff I found so far...!

ChrisP

[migca]

Thanks so much Chris, it sounds interesting. I'm away on a trip right now but as I soon as I get back I'll order it. When I finish perhaps we can have a discussion about our thoughts on it.

Miguel

[ChrisP]

Sure... love to.

One more thought about Thai Jealousy...

My Thai bf points out something that is also true to some extent...

As well as Thai men having a propensity to "Butterfly" and not be faithful, there are many cases in BKK of Farang guys appearing, making long-term promises to Thai guys they've met (and fallen for), changing their lives, and then just disappearing as fast as they came... especially if they don't actually live in LOS..

ChrisP