Bitter Thai Red Shirts Promise Further Rallies In North

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Last week my construction crew for my house here in Chiang Mai deserted me for three days. They returned beaming, each showing off 4500 baht in their wallets. They had received 1500 (!) a day to go and burn tyres by the train station. Obviously my free icecreams every few days didn't quite have the same cache as cash. While I am very anti red (leaders, behaviour and voilence - and of course the big T) I have absolutely no resentment towards the poor who rallied because of their beliefs, however misguided, or for the need for money. When you live off a hundred or so baht a day (or whatever contracors pay), it is hard to enjoy the luxury of principles. While I don't agree with it, I don't begrudge the workers taking time off, after all 4500 baht for three days 'work' is pretty good. Talking to them, I found them ambivalent politically, all they did it for was the money. I am not saying this represents the reds as a whole, it is simply a personal anecdote.

That having been said, they can buy their own icecreams this week!

[yoshiwara]

Last week my construction crew for my house here in Chiang Mai deserted me for three days. They returned beaming, each showing off 4500 baht in their wallets. They had received 1500 (!) a day to go and burn tyres by the train station. Obviously my free icecreams every few days didn't quite have the same cache as cash. While I am very anti red (leaders, behaviour and voilence - and of course the big T) I have absolutely no resentment towards the poor who rallied because of their beliefs, however misguided, or for the need for money. When you live off a hundred or so baht a day (or whatever contracors pay), it is hard to enjoy the luxury of principles. While I don't agree with it, I don't begrudge the workers taking time off, after all 4500 baht for three days 'work' is pretty good. Talking to them, I found them ambivalent politically, all they did it for was the money. I am not saying this represents the reds as a whole, it is simply a personal anecdote.

That having been said, they can buy their own icecreams this week!

If the price of your employees getting paid 1500 baht a day was the destruction of thousands of Bangkok workers jobs, then it is dirty money.

And dirty ice-creams.

[citizen33]

Why are these people bitter? Well one explanation most of you seem to want to sweep under the carpet is that they have been radicalised by the experience of state violence. If Parichart really saw a fellow protester killed by a sniper, it is not something she will ever forget. Some posters would like to trivialise death compared with property destruction, but taking somebody's life is taking all they have. Already the stories are circulating in Isaan. A friend from Khorat e-mailed the other day to say that people are saying that the six or so shot in Wat Pathumwanaram were hit by soldiers firing down from the Skytrain tracks. The story goes on to mention the killing of the red cross worker, the desecration of a Buddhist temple and the treatment of the monks. This was said to be because monks from Wat Pathumwanaram had appeared on the red shirt stage. Is the above a true account in all its particulars? I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. Such stories play very badly with rural Thais and makes them bitter. That is a further cost of the crackdown. I see that Abhisit is nervous about the temple and has already ordered an investigation.

[yoshiwara]

Why are these people bitter? Well one explanation most of you seem to want to sweep under the carpet is that they have been radicalised by the experience of state violence. If Parichart really saw a fellow protester killed by a sniper, it is not something she will ever forget. Some posters would like to trivialise death compared with property destruction, but taking somebody's life is taking all they have. Already the stories are circulating in Isaan. A friend from Khorat e-mailed the other day to say that people are saying that the six or so shot in Wat Pathumwanaram were hit by soldiers firing down from the Skytrain tracks. The story goes on to mention the killing of the red cross worker, the desecration of a Buddhist temple and the treatment of the monks. This was said to be because monks from Wat Pathumwanaram had appeared on the red shirt stage. Is the above a true account in all its particulars? I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. Such stories play very badly with rural Thais and makes them bitter. That is a further cost of the crackdown. I see that Abhisit is nervous about the temple and has already ordered an investigation.

No one now believes a bloody word coming from the reds.

If you want to talk about bitter, then focus on the Bangkok workers who have lost their jobs as a result of the actions taken by your mates.

This you won't do.

Your job is to continue laying smokescreens.

[chantorn]

What they did in Bangkok was ok, or at least 99% of them. (1% screw it up with stupid violence, I admit).

Why don't you also admit that blackshirts were mingling freely with the protesters at the baricades and they had no problem with them firing automatic rifles and grenade launchers? If you are with someone who commits murder while commiting a crime, you will also face charges - even if you did not pull the trigger.

You mean this black shirt guy who mingling freely, even if he did not pull the trigger.

[sapan]

all most of them want is an election,but this goverment wouldnt wont this because they no they will loose

It is not a problem of loosing or not, it is more about the stability of Thailand.

Thailand is surrounded by a lot of unstable countries.

As of today, this red shirt mess demonstrated that Thailand is NOT READY for democracy.

You cannot apply western legitimate feelings to an Eastern country. It won't work and would end up in a civil war.

Quote from above "all they want is an election".

Suggest you do some much deeper longer-term research and analysis, you might just want to change your comment. I certainly hope so!

yes i will. thanks

[citizen33]

No one now believes a bloody word coming from the reds.

If you want to talk about bitter, then focus on the Bangkok workers who have lost their jobs as a result of the actions taken by your mates.

This you won't do.

Your job is to continue laying smokescreens.

I notice the constant string of rebuttals, but wonder what the underlying analysis might be. It seems that it is just a simple story about the evil manipulator pulling strings from afar and the village buffalo who sell their souls to the highest bidder. Against that some of us see the unresolved tensions of 1930s settlement unravelling in the modern world, detect rising political consciousness among rural people, and start to doubt whether Thaksin's disappearance from the scene would change very much. As events unfold we'll see who is right, but it seems clear already that those who said the coup/court rulings/coalition etc would be enough to get the peasants to accept their lot were wrong. Will the bloody nose work better?

Edited May 25, 2010 by citizen33

[jdinasia]

No one now believes a bloody word coming from the reds.

If you want to talk about bitter, then focus on the Bangkok workers who have lost their jobs as a result of the actions taken by your mates.

This you won't do.

Your job is to continue laying smokescreens.

I notice the constant string of rebuttals, but wonder what the underlying analysis might be. It seems that it is just a simple story about the evil manipulator pulling strings from afar and the village buffalo who sell their souls to the highest bidder. Against that some of us see the unresolved tensions of 1930s settlement unravelling in the modern world, detect rising political consciousness among rural people, and start to doubt whether Thaksin's disappearance from the scene would change very much. As events unfold we'll see who is right, but it seems clear already that those who said the coup/court rulings/coalition etc would be enough to get the peasants to accept their lot were wrong. Will the bloody nose work better?

But your analysis leaves out the fact of payment and manipuation by the red shirt leadership (From Thaksin on down). It is obvious that the evidence that the reds' plans were to kill Thais from the very beginning will have to be shown in open court. The evidence against them is overwhelming.

[Tanaka]

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

from the Thai TV these days, we see the most damages, are the real people who run their little shops for life on the street, and they loss everything overnight.

this is not the end, million hardworking grass root workers in Bangkok will face the damaged economy, later salary cut, even loss of jobs.

everyone suffers from this red rally, red riot; the most significant damages, and may be not recoverable, perhaps the grass root and the poor.

And your point is?

[Chaimai]

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

from the Thai TV these days, we see the most damages, are the real people who run their little shops for life on the street, and they loss everything overnight.

this is not the end, million hardworking grass root workers in Bangkok will face the damaged economy, later salary cut, even loss of jobs.

everyone suffers from this red rally, red riot; the most significant damages, and may be not recoverable, perhaps the grass root and the poor.

And your point is?

..... quite well-made actually.

[scorecard]

How is the Abhisit government not legitimate?

I think the problem started with the coup. Then PPP won the next elections and the PM (Samak) was disqualified because he ran a cooking show. In any true Democracy, you would see neither a coup, nor a PM disqualified for running a cooking show.

1/ you may well see a coup in a "true" democracy when the incumbents term has expired and he refuses to hold elections while trying to subvert the other pillars.

2/ the cooking show was not the problem per se. The problem was that he was being paid, which is against the constitution for obvious reasons of corruption prevention, and the fact that he lied about being paid. Any MP who knowingly lies to parliament is expected to resign in a "true" democracy.

I suggest there is another and very relevant way to analyse the 'cooking show' factor:

- Although Samak was found guilty ofd accepting money for his cooking show (and found guilty of lying about it), there surely is an underlying rational / reasonig for these laws - surely any country, and citizenry expects their PM / president of whatever the title is, to be devoting their thinking, their discussion, their actiovities to national matters, not spending time on preparing for and taping cooking shows. Or put it another way, surely any serious statesmen would never spend time on such matters.

[slapout]

rat catcher's comments in post 208 are spot on. The Thaksin era/saga will be remembered for the design/volume of corruption implemented by he and his cohorts/cronies. When you look at the prior business/political activities of this group, it is no wonder the people who were given positions of public servants/trust would follow suit. This end of the chain is still in place and needs to be approached as seems to being done at the top, by the present PM (maybe not as fast or as fully as some want). The locals in the villages got used to handouts during the lead up to, and during Thaksin's time and feel that they have been forgotten again, as the were pre Thaksin. If and when the free hand outs come to a halt, many of the red shirts will have to rethink their life style, work ethic, and social behavior/expectations.

If monetary sanctions are carried out as recently indicated, serious charges as discussed are brought forth against all those involved in destruction and harm to the general population (both physical and monetary) and the present government carries thru with their proposals and adds some more that are sorely needed, we might see more smiles return.

[clown]

Comparing Thailand's poor to cattle will surely help the healing. You're an _______

[yoshiwara]

p

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I don't understand all the hatred amongs the farangs here (hatred against the red shirts). I know that most of them got very low education and they have jobs that you farangs are looking down at. But they still have feelings.....What they did in Bangkok was ok, or at least 99% of them. (1% screw it up with stupid violence, I admit). I do mean that the demonstrations were justified, the demonstrations should just have been more in control. I live in the "poor" area of Thailand, and have done so for many years, and I can say they are suffering. They can see that their very hard work, for pennies, give them nothing in return.

So, try to understand these people and their anger. Don't just blame them all of them for what happened (some stupid idiots burning down shopping malls etc). I know many of the poor people up north, and they have a real struggle to to even get food for the day even though they are working very hard. You farangs living in Bangkok don't see this, but if you did, you should understand more.

I still hope that it will be, one day, some understanding between "red shirts" and "yellow shirts".

So, before you blame the "red shirts", think about yourself in the same situation, wouldn't you, yourself, be a bit upset with the situation?

NB! Sorry for my English, vut I do believe you all got my point

Yes, we got your point.

Its rubbish.

Only 1% going on or supporting the burning of Bangkok?

Pure BS from you.

Get upset about the workers of Bangkok who have lost their jobs.

Silly boy.

[Publicus]

p

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I don't understand all the hatred amongs the farangs here (hatred against the red shirts). I know that most of them got very low education and they have jobs that you farangs are looking down at. But they still have feelings.....What they did in Bangkok was ok, or at least 99% of them. (1% screw it up with stupid violence, I admit). I do mean that the demonstrations were justified, the demonstrations should just have been more in control. I live in the "poor" area of Thailand, and have done so for many years, and I can say they are suffering. They can see that their very hard work, for pennies, give them nothing in return.

So, try to understand these people and their anger. Don't just blame them all of them for what happened (some stupid idiots burning down shopping malls etc). I know many of the poor people up north, and they have a real struggle to to even get food for the day even though they are working very hard. You farangs living in Bangkok don't see this, but if you did, you should understand more.

I still hope that it will be, one day, some understanding between "red shirts" and "yellow shirts".

So, before you blame the "red shirts", think about yourself in the same situation, wouldn't you, yourself, be a bit upset with the situation?

NB! Sorry for my English, vut I do believe you all got my point

Yes, we got your point.

Its rubbish.

Only 1% going on or supporting the burning of Bangkok?

Pure BS from you.

Get upset about the workers of Bangkok who have lost their jobs.

Silly boy.

At this point it's well recognized, established and understood that the Red Movement is predicated on violence. Heads of Asean governments in Pattaya were scrambling to escape their meeting venue by helicopter as the Reds pressed violence. The terrible beat goes on including Songkran to the radically escalated present, with proclamations now by Reds up north engaged in violence and guaranteeing more Red violence. Thaksin shamelessly and openly speaks of guerella warfare on a sustained basis as defining the country's future. 

It's gone beyond saying Thaksin will deservedly be rejected by the majority of the population and electorate because Thaksin doesn't care what people think of him or how they may vote in the scheduled GE. It's more than clear that Thaksin means to destroy the country so he can save it for his mad meglomaniac self. Thaksin hasn't any agenda or program of reconciliation or societal peace, harmony - only calculated violence designed to do anything to get him back in absolute control of the country. 

[scotbeve]

World, outside?

the rural thai have no idea about life outside. Show them a map of the far east and they cant even identify thailand properly let alone the major cities. They dont even understand what a map is - cant visualise.

When I taught in a primary school I realised that they had never seen a world globe before, didn't know what it was, couldn't grasp the idea of a round earth and my thai supervisor advised against this path to knowledge as its never in the curriculum even in high school. This was quite a progressive school as they go btw

RobinT,

One word sums it up.... uneducated. A very unfortunate circumstance in Thailand for decades, no, scratch that, from day dot in Thailand. Slaves, serfs, etc. were not allowed proper schooling during and throughout the dynasties. The modern approach is to educate the masses using the worst possible methods. Thaksin did a bit of uplifting when he was in "power" concerning education. The govt. teachers (as well as many other civil servants) received several uplifts of pay - however, they worked a lot of overtime (still do). Grants were set up for poor students (financially) to put them through uni / college overseas - opposition started bleating about the poor lads / lasses missing home and their culture... Sorry, I'm drifting here.... Point being is that the average guy / gal on the street / field doesn't have a chance getting a good education... Okay, okay... there are some hand outs from private folks ( I do it myself for 4 students - high school through to 2 years uni - in Thailand) BUT not the govt.... The poor and rich should not be painted any color where education is concerned.

[Chaimai]

Sorry to butt in here but I couldn't find a suitable topic on which to ask my question.

I have obviously not been paying full attention - what happened to Arisman ?

Last thing I heard he was going to surrender to police but was apparently 'holed up' in Khon Kaen.

Any further news ?

Thanks

[Jingthing]

p

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I don't understand all the hatred amongs the farangs here (hatred against the red shirts). I know that most of them got very low education and they have jobs that you farangs are looking down at. But they still have feelings.....What they did in Bangkok was ok, or at least 99% of them. (1% screw it up with stupid violence, I admit). I do mean that the demonstrations were justified, the demonstrations should just have been more in control. I live in the "poor" area of Thailand, and have done so for many years, and I can say they are suffering. They can see that their very hard work, for pennies, give them nothing in return.

So, try to understand these people and their anger. Don't just blame them all of them for what happened (some stupid idiots burning down shopping malls etc). I know many of the poor people up north, and they have a real struggle to to even get food for the day even though they are working very hard. You farangs living in Bangkok don't see this, but if you did, you should understand more.

I still hope that it will be, one day, some understanding between "red shirts" and "yellow shirts".

So, before you blame the "red shirts", think about yourself in the same situation, wouldn't you, yourself, be a bit upset with the situation?

NB! Sorry for my English, vut I do believe you all got my point

Yes, we got your point.

Its rubbish.

Only 1% going on or supporting the burning of Bangkok?

Pure BS from you.

Get upset about the workers of Bangkok who have lost their jobs.

Silly boy.

As yet, there have been no public apologies by recognizable red leaders for the Bangkok anarchy and destruction, nor any evidence of remorse from the masses. On the contrary. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[nakachalet]

Nice to know this woman is happy that poor people in Bangkok (many of whom actually come from the same kind of background as her) have lost their jobs thanks to all the burning she is happy about. Seems nobody is picking up on all the poor that are suffering because of the red arson and violence. There is a big irony in that albeit a sad one. Bnagkok is not full; of only rich people and it is the poor who are suffering most from the attacks through lost work.

I am sorry to say I agree with the woman from Chiang Mai, the Abhisit government is not legitimate, it rorted the normal electoral process.

It is also cynical, shameless and unprincipled. I believe Abhisit's objective is simply to hold on to power and he doesn't much mind at what cost.

flowerpot....

in the same line with your thought and reasoning....

would you or won't you say....

that prior to apisit's coming into power.... there were two govt before apisit....

namely--smark's short reign and somchai's short reign....

were these--smark's and somchai's govt legit or not....?

if you say that smark's and somchai's govt were LEGITIMATE, then you must also accept apisit's govt as legitimate as well.... because all three were voted into existence by the same group of senators and representatives.... and you can not argue with that.... right?

however, if you take the stand that smark's and somchai's are illegitimate.... then your view that apisit is likewise illegitimate.... then summarily.... your view falls into the same line of reasoning....

nevertheless, if you say smark and somchai are legit.... but apisit isn't.... then you need to have someone reexamines your reasoning power....

now, for me, i say smark, somchai and apisit.... since they were voted into power by the same group of political entities.... they all can be considered as legitimate govt.... that is mhop....