Thai Police Force Must Undergo An Urgent Overhaul

[horndevil]

In Hong Kong corruption was rampant especially in the police until the Independent Commission Against Corruption ICAC was created in 1977.

The ICAC was created to root out corruption; unlike the old police Anti-Corruption Branch, the ICAC would be answerable to only the Governor of Hong Kong. Their tactics and methods were often crude and aggressive in the extreme, often swooping on a police station to take an entire shift in for questioning. Ultimately though their shock tactics were effective and as a result Hong Kong was transformed from a graft-ridden city into one of the cleanest places in the world, as recognized by international institutions such as the World Bank, the Heritage Foundation and Transparency International.

That was 37 years ago and despite a return to mainland China continues today. Maybe Thailand needs to look at a similar system for here.

quick question, although i dont think there is anyone here who donesnt agree that most of the Thai police are corrupt - however unlike the polititians - what are they really getting paid? wouldnt increasing their salaries and at the same time doing the same as the above post - have an effect

[nakachalet]

.... but Thailand is still for Thai people, not for farang. You can try to fit in more, learn to speak some Thai and don't try to act superior...

It's sad but I basically agree with this.

As a farang you can somewhat integrate into Thai society if you keep at it for many years, learn the language, act in a certain way and so forth. But one should never, ever make the mistake of thinking that they are part of Thai society because that's just not really possible. At best a farang will be seen as some sort of benign oddity, but he/she will always be 'farang'.

there have been so many different posts saying that:

don't think for a minute.... don't make the mistake of thinking.... that farangs can become part of the thai society....

imho.... imh experiences... farangs can be accepted into thai societies.... if farangs can:

learn to speak the language reasonably;

learn to interact with locals appropriately, and respect their individual differences;

learn to allow for personal spaces and freedom between and among locals;

learn to render plenty of various kinds of help to locals, whenever possible;

say what you mean.... and mean what you say, and;

most importantly, set a good daily human example (not including superiority complex) that

others can see, can appreciate and can model our good daily life example....

the above are, i believe, some major factors that help many farangs more easily become integrated and assimilated into thai society...

i am certain, there are other farangs who have plenty to say.... about the above as well....

with all due respect.... cheers....

[PingManDan]

LOL that'll be the day!!

[toenail]

For Bangkok, "outsource" the police department. Bring someone from outside the country that has NO connections. The Brits did during their colonial occupation (Kenya...Singapore...). Also pay the police enough so they do not have to ask for bribes. Right now if I was a BKK policeman, it would be like having "worthless" written on my face. My two suggestons are impossible, so the corrupton will continue.

Edited May 28, 2010 by toenail

[overhaul38]

Maybe all the farangs will be happy when Thailand is a police state like the UK and America?

I wish one of you mental giants would talk about problems in Thailand without feeling the need to bash the U.S..

The U.S. and UK are not police states nor anything fermenting in your fevered brain.

Your jealousy and lack of self esteem is painful to see.

[nakachalet]

LOL that'll be the day!!

pingmandan....

i just came across the following attachment.... which should illustrate some degree of efforts from thai officials to solicit and include FARANGS,

YES FARANGS.... into the thai society attempt to rebuild what some traitors destroyed....

eat your heart out.... pingmandan....

[needforspeed]

If the police were paid a reasonable wage, and at the same time an effective complaints comission and an independent corruption agency were formed, something might be accomplished. The practise of auctioning high income generating senior postings might be a good place to start. Low ranking police need to collect tea money to turn an insufficient wage into a living one. High ranking Police regard their black income as a perk of the job and frequently become so involved with protecting criminality that it's difficult to judge where the police end and the criminals begin. Drug dealing and manufacture, dodgy real estate deals, arms supply, and the endemic prostitution industry are all areas where high ranking police officers can collect many times their annual salary from a single protection deal. In some cases and localities senior police officers control these industries themselves. This is the sort of thing that must be addressed to restore credability to the police force. However the issue of political favouritism will doubtless receive the most attention initially, because the instigators of these proposed clean up campaigns are politicians.

I agree with much of what you are saying. Although the low ranking police get paid how much? I assume they make as much as a waiter or som tam vendor at least. Many Thai people survive on these sort of salaries with out engaging in illegal activities to supplement their incomes. They do not need that mansion. They do not need that Mercedes. Just because I want material items outside the range of my salary doesn't mean it is a justification to break the law to obtain them.

It isn't as if they are only out getting enough tea money to survive. They are extorting as much money as they can so they can sit with the big boys and have some status.

Correct with a income off 8k they cant keep there status high enough, so that means collecting extra money.

Agree with MurgaT, that is how its works here .

[selftaopath]

If the police were paid a reasonable wage, and at the same time an effective complaints comission and an independent corruption agency were formed, something might be accomplished. The practise of auctioning high income generating senior postings might be a good place to start. Low ranking police need to collect tea money to turn an insufficient wage into a living one. High ranking Police regard their black income as a perk of the job and frequently become so involved with protecting criminality that it's difficult to judge where the police end and the criminals begin. Drug dealing and manufacture, dodgy real estate deals, arms supply, and the endemic prostitution industry are all areas where high ranking police officers can collect many times their annual salary from a single protection deal. In some cases and localities senior police officers control these industries themselves. This is the sort of thing that must be addressed to restore credability to the police force. However the issue of political favouritism will doubtless receive the most attention initially, because the instigators of these proposed clean up campaigns are politicians.

I agree with much of what you are saying. Although the low ranking police get paid how much? I assume they make as much as a waiter or som tam vendor at least. Many Thai people survive on these sort of salaries with out engaging in illegal activities to supplement their incomes. They do not need that mansion. They do not need that Mercedes. Just because I want material items outside the range of my salary doesn't mean it is a justification to break the law to obtain them.

It isn't as if they are only out getting enough tea money to survive. They are extorting as much money as they can so they can sit with the big boys and have some status.

Well said. Thanks

[selftaopath]

The police here is trash. However, they're no worse then the police in Malaysia and Indonesia. And I'm pretty sure the police is a lot of third world countries are just as bad. I speak of Malaysia and Indonesia because I've lived in both these countries, 4 years in KL, 2 in Jakarta. Now, I am in no way excusing corruption but these people are paid really bad. While you can survive on the crappy salary, most people would take the extra tea money here and there to supplement their income.

It's not easy to clean up an already corrupt organisation. The Malaysians tried and they've failed miserably. Like someone said, you need a watchdog that's 100% clean (like HK's ICAC) and you would also need to improve the salaries of these policemen. Tall order here unfortunately. I think the Singaporeans got it correct in which they pay civil servants very well to prevent corruption.

For what most Thai police do they might be OVERPAID.

[way2muchcoffee]

For what most Thai police do they might be OVERPAID.

Indeed.

[Steely Dan]

Hmmm, There could hardly be a larger or more worthwhile undertaking than dismantling the police and starting again. I do think that this misses a larger issue though; The police are a reflection of society as a whole and their corruption merely reflects the almost universal tendency to extract personal advantage from performing every job which confers authority. Furthermore the Thai people seem to have developed an attitude of profound defeatism when it comes to facing such universal graft, so they will routinely pay to get round regulations or obtain advantage for themselves.

I suppose the answer may lie with education, but you hear of how the Chinese deal with corrupt government officials and so sanction for misconduct needs to be more severe than the ubiquitous transfer to another position.

[nakachalet]

very well said indeed....

thank you very much....

remember to participate in the upcoming meeting.... naka

Hmmm, There could hardly be a larger or more worthwhile undertaking than dismantling the police and starting again. I do think that this misses a larger issue though; The police are a reflection of society as a whole and their corruption merely reflects the almost universal tendency to extract personal advantage from performing every job which confers authority. Furthermore the Thai people seem to have developed an attitude of profound defeatism when it comes to facing such universal graft, so they will routinely pay to get round regulations or obtain advantage for themselves.

I suppose the answer may lie with education, but you hear of how the Chinese deal with corrupt government officials and so sanction for misconduct needs to be more severe than the ubiquitous transfer to another position.

[Old Man River]

Hmmm, There could hardly be a larger or more worthwhile undertaking than dismantling the police and starting again. I do think that this misses a larger issue though; The police are a reflection of society as a whole and their corruption merely reflects the almost universal tendency to extract personal advantage from performing every job which confers authority. Furthermore the Thai people seem to have developed an attitude of profound defeatism when it comes to facing such universal graft, so they will routinely pay to get round regulations or obtain advantage for themselves.

I suppose the answer may lie with education, but you hear of how the Chinese deal with corrupt government officials and so sanction for misconduct needs to be more severe than the ubiquitous transfer to another position.

Graft is one thing, but refusing to enforce the rule of law, their primary duty, is something completely different. What good is a police force that won't enforce the law?

[Pib]

We got police in Bangkok!!?? That is, public servants that find and arrest bad guys, stop/solve crimes, etc. Pretty much all I see is traffic cops writing tickets (i.e., collecting commissions/supplements to their salary).

[jackspratt]

Sure!

In Oz the public are so frightened of the police, when on the road, that if a police car is doing 20 Km on the freeway no one will pass them and the mobile roadblock will continue until they leave the freeway.

In a country town the local Sgt and 3 officers walked into a gun shop, handcuffed the 15 year old son of the owner who was watching the shop for his dad (who had gone for a dump), threw him into the back of their paddy wagon, took him back to the station and grilled him for 6 hours about a trivial complaint. Apart from the fact that the arrest was illegal, they didn't bother to have a witness present when questioning a minor and wouldn't allow him to make a phone call or contact his parents who, in the meantime had organised a search for him...the upshot was that nothing was done against the police as the minister said that the police "probably had a good reason for acting as they did"

In Oz no-one likes or respects the wallopers!

Your first and last paragraphs are absolute twaddle.

Please don't make the mistake of pretending you represent all Australians - particularly as the country operates under 8 different police forces, plus the Federal plod.

[bapak]

Sure!

In Oz the public are so frightened of the police, when on the road, that if a police car is doing 20 Km on the freeway no one will pass them and the mobile roadblock will continue until they leave the freeway.

In a country town the local Sgt and 3 officers walked into a gun shop, handcuffed the 15 year old son of the owner who was watching the shop for his dad (who had gone for a dump), threw him into the back of their paddy wagon, took him back to the station and grilled him for 6 hours about a trivial complaint. Apart from the fact that the arrest was illegal, they didn't bother to have a witness present when questioning a minor and wouldn't allow him to make a phone call or contact his parents who, in the meantime had organised a search for him...the upshot was that nothing was done against the police as the minister said that the police "probably had a good reason for acting as they did"

In Oz no-one likes or respects the wallopers!

Your first and last paragraphs are absolute twaddle.

Please don't make the mistake of pretending you represent all Australians - particularly as the country operates under 8 different police forces, plus the Federal plod.

Correct, 'jackspratt', absolute twaddle. Majority support and respect the police. A few bad eggs are soon sorted out.

[angrypassenger]

These are my suggestions to our PM to eradicate corruption and rotten fruits from the Police force baskets:

If you can ,pls pass this proposal-

Here it goes:

followings are my suggestions -

1) Bring Seri as Thailand Police Chief

2) Transfer all the police chiefs and intelligence personnel from effected area of bangkok (lumpini ,thonglor,pathumthani,rajprasong

area and effected north eastern provinces to Yala-Pattani-Narathiwat -Kolok -in the deep south-

leave them to handle insurgents in the rubber plants and forests!!!!

3) Bring the police chiefs and police personnel from the deep south to Lumpini Police station,Thonglor Police station and other effected

area like pathumthani,Chaengwattana and the rest of the areas to handle these thugs as well as in the North East !

4)Apply spy network within the police force like Guiliani did in NY to suppress crimes -which it worked perfectly-

5) Identify the individual -0ne by one -who

joined hands with Red shirts or whoever have soft corners for the reds thugs !

6)Each police station should have a list of all local gangs or mafias and their inventories of weapons and bombs--

If they dont have -- Sack the Chief of the police station !

Put them all in a prison like in Guantanamo prison and employ waterboard system to bring out the information- who are the instigators --

7) Eliminate them in fake encounters --

Like Mr T- did to kill drugdealers !

8) Use confiscated 46 billion money in welfare of the Police and the army - increase their salary to 10 times except for the chiefs -

Take these suggestions and see the result within 6 months

Bon voyage!!

[slapout]

Angry; after that piece of unsolicated advice for the PM, Bon voyage is probably a good way to continue your consulting career.

[nakachalet]

Angry; after that piece of unsolicated advice for the PM, Bon voyage is probably a good way to continue your consulting career.

some of you guys are so very creatively comical.... luv it....

[Kilgore Trout]

.... but Thailand is still for Thai people, not for farang. You can try to fit in more, learn to speak some Thai and don't try to act superior...

It's sad but I basically agree with this.

As a farang you can somewhat integrate into Thai society if you keep at it for many years, learn the language, act in a certain way and so forth. But one should never, ever make the mistake of thinking that they are part of Thai society because that's just not really possible. At best a farang will be seen as some sort of benign oddity, but he/she will always be 'farang'.

there have been so many different posts saying that:

don't think for a minute.... don't make the mistake of thinking.... that farangs can become part of the thai society....

imho.... imh experiences... farangs can be accepted into thai societies.... if farangs can:

learn to speak the language reasonably;

learn to interact with locals appropriately, and respect their individual differences;

learn to allow for personal spaces and freedom between and among locals;

learn to render plenty of various kinds of help to locals, whenever possible;

say what you mean.... and mean what you say, and;

most importantly, set a good daily human example (not including superiority complex) that

others can see, can appreciate and can model our good daily life example....

the above are, i believe, some major factors that help many farangs more easily become integrated and assimilated into thai society...

i am certain, there are other farangs who have plenty to say.... about the above as well....

with all due respect.... cheers....

So basically you are saying that to be accepted in Thai society you have to act 100 times better than they do and never ever get upset or mad at the way they act. OK, assuming you do (in your own neighborhood) when you step out into somewhere new you will be at the starting line again; ok maybe you will be a farang who speaks Thai but a farang nevertheless.

Farang will never be accepted into Thai society, merely "put up with." As many Thais have told me; I don't care if you live here 100 years, speak perfect thai and have generations of children. Neither you or they will ever be Thai. Just look at the seikhs who live here; ask a Thai if they are accepted as Thai.

I know my parents in law love me and accept me; they are wonderful people, but they will never treat me like a Thai and I will always be the center of "falang" attention when I go to the village.

Just get used to it.

[angrypassenger]

Angry; after that piece of unsolicated advice for the PM, Bon voyage is probably a good way to continue your consulting career.

mr Slap!!!

come out with positive comments that would help eradicate corruption --

come up with way to slap the system --

seems u are very good in ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!

[eggomaniac]

I've been hearing this sort of pie in the sky stuff for 20 years now. It would take a seismic change in attitudes in the police hierarchy to achieve even a small amount of change.

Forget it. It's not going to happen. Not in our lifetimes anyway.

EGGsactly!

Searching the internet for information about police corruption in Thailand, all those years ago, is how I first stumbled upon Thai Visa.

Is this like, maybe, the 1000th Thread on the Topic?

-------------

Maybe all the Posts should be 'bundled up' and sent to the Gov of BKK's Thread about wanting input from farangs.

---

Barring paying them a salary that allows them to send their kids to college in the West, what other measures could possibly be contrived to 'fix' the problem.

-----

-------------------

Besides, if you really, really think about it, the way it is in Thailand has some advantages over the West, it's more simplified.

Try starting a business or building a shed on your farm in Canada and see how many money grabbing feifdoms you have to deal with. 'Tea money' could be seen as 'relief' not a curse. Also, we have some good cops, some bad cops, and LOTS of criminal gangs.

Again, it's more 'streamlined' in LOD. [land of the demonstrators]

For example if you can be on the 'inside' and connected with the police or with a gang in the West, you are looking over your shoulder, either way.

On the other hand, a 'cozy' relationship with a higher up police in Thailand and you are set for life, think of it as a tithe.

----------

Here it goes, > I know one guy who had just come back from a few years in Thailand because he was 'sick' of the system, after a few years he left here because he was 'sick' of the system. He's back here, again, after getting 'sick' of the system in Thailand, again. < true story

[slapout]

Angry; a short reply as per your suggestion for input. Until the public servants???(politicians) admit and propose a overhaul of the police force, its not going to happen. Even these clowns should have noticed how the police hindered most of the preventative measures suggested during the last few weeks, by their total lack of implementation. The ex mayor of NY is available (for a price) to share his experience in approaching similar problems, as are many other individuals around the world who have similar experience.

Until the hierarchy of the system is broken down to a local control level vs the present national control level, it is probably unrepairable. This and several other top secret/common sense suggestions could be relayed to individuals who expressed an interest, but as this topic is based on a newspaper editorial, and there seems little interest by those who could/would effect a change, its all a moot point.

[Secularist]

Maybe all the farangs will be happy when Thailand is a police state like the UK and America?

As I watch the thousands of people in Arizona peacefully protest the new immigration law, without any governmental interference, I wonder where is the police state you speak of?

[slapout]

Any police state in the US is a misnomer. A state may have a state investigation bureau and a state police organization (highway patrol), but the enforcement of state and local laws are handled by locally hired, thus monitored by, locally elected individuals. This applies to the town, county, and district, ranging from town Marshall to district attorney. This seems to be one of the better checks and balances instituted in the USA police/judicial system.

This system does not eliminate corruption, but does ensure that it is at a level where it does not run rampant throughout the system, while maintaining a higher power who can be brought in for investigation and charges where deemed warranted. To refer to this system as a 'police state' would bring a very vocal response from those involved in the system. The sheriff of Maricopa county Az. where many of the referenced protesters are protesting would probably enlighten you if you have a real interest in furthering your knowledge.

[jalansanitwong]

MP Leekpai was talking about reforming the police force 15 years ago.!!! I dont believe the original post. Total waste of time.TIT

[yoshiwara]

That the police force was neutralised during the battle for Bangkok is a positive given the negative possibilities.

Yes it would have been better if they had done their job.

There will be an opportunity to move forwards.

It will take time, but for now be thankful that Thaksin's influence was negated at a critical time.

[richieudon]

The good thing about the police is that they are such a bargain.

200 baht for a minor traffic offence, (100 for Thais), 500 baht for a serious one: I never did murder, but I am sure 20,000 baht would fix that, if you fixed it skillfully.

Actually, these guys are heroes of the libertarian revolution!

My only qualm is that they draw a salary, paid from our taxes.

I think that they should officially be freelance, IE no salary.

Go boys in brown!

That's all well and good until a loved one of yours gets murdered by someone and they just pay 20,000 baht to not be charged. How would you feel?

Maybe all the farangs will be happy when Thailand is a police state like the UK and America?

[mdaspinall]

OR YOU CAN JUST RESPECT THE LAW AND PAY ZERO !!!!

For the record - I am here in Phuket.. The other evening around 4pm I was walking home when a policeman beckoned me towards him. He asked where I was going - told me to get on his bike and drove me to my front door. He did not want any money. The next evening I saw him at an eatery, we shook hands and I have a photo with him off-duty. The reason ? mmmm I guess I gave him respect every day when I passed him by doing his job... What goes around comes around.. I have been here one month and all I have ever got is respect and courtesy, low prices, same as the Thais, given motorbikes to lend for free and cars too. Shared cigarettes, bought beers...What is up with everyone on here ???? Don't you know how to make FRIENDS ????

I have a suggestions for you. Rent a car or motorcycle. Take a driving/riding tour around the country for a month or two. Report back about how well you respected the traffic laws, and then report about may many traffic fines you paid.

Paying fines in Thailand has nothing to do with obeying the law. It is simply a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, particularly with regard to traffic offences.

OK - almost two years on, driving my own bike every day. I have paid a grand total of $3.00 for going through a red light on two separate occasions, that's it!!!! And for the record I go through red lights when it is safe to do so ALWAYS...

I have no idea why others have a different experience. Maybe Karma, Maybe Luck. I repeat I have received nothing but courtesy and respect, end of story.

[Reasonableman]

Sure!

In Oz the public are so frightened of the police, when on the road, that if a police car is doing 20 Km on the freeway no one will pass them and the mobile roadblock will continue until they leave the freeway.

In a country town the local Sgt and 3 officers walked into a gun shop, handcuffed the 15 year old son of the owner who was watching the shop for his dad (who had gone for a dump), threw him into the back of their paddy wagon, took him back to the station and grilled him for 6 hours about a trivial complaint. Apart from the fact that the arrest was illegal, they didn't bother to have a witness present when questioning a minor and wouldn't allow him to make a phone call or contact his parents who, in the meantime had organised a search for him...the upshot was that nothing was done against the police as the minister said that the police "probably had a good reason for acting as they did"

In Oz no-one likes or respects the wallopers!

Your first and last paragraphs are absolute twaddle.

Please don't make the mistake of pretending you represent all Australians - particularly as the country operates under 8 different police forces, plus the Federal plod.

Correct, 'jackspratt', absolute twaddle. Majority support and respect the police. A few bad eggs are soon sorted out.

In Oz, folks might more rightly complain about the police being overly zealous, such as booking you for speeding at 2-5 km over the speed limit. A nice little revenue raiser for the government, but I was never asked to pay a "reduced fine" [aka a bribe] by Oz cops. Must agree that the majority support, respect, and trust the police in Oz... oh yes, and fear them, because they DO enforce the law.